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MTA looking into a subway line to Marine Park


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That's where I have it on the track map. it's about 1,500' south of the Clarendon Road platform

There were about 700' feet of commercial lots just south of East New York Ave that I felt was a possible at maybe a 2.2% grade with 600' could clear 13ft 2in @ 700 feet well over 15-foot clearance. I highlighted it a plan B mockup.  

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Two possible locations 

Just south of East New York Ave and the other Around Kings Highway I said before. Marked them both. Can't you clear 13ft in 600'-700' feet? at 2-2.5%?

 

 

 

That is at least three buildings. Given that a house alone is worth $800K, that is worth quite a lot of money.

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That is at least three buildings. Given that a house alone is worth $800K, that is worth quite a lot of money.

So even at 2.4 million to acquire this land that's going pay the area and city back a million fold over the 50-80 years what are we really talking about? Besides that would you're going to pay that 2.4 back with the cost of building underground for the next 1.8 miles until that opening around Kings Hwy so now we're talking maybe less than 10 Million to Tenths if not hundreds of millions of dollars more to build underground for an extra few miles. If cost is a factor get it above ground as soon as possible. Quality wise I'm not going to argue a full subway is the best bet in the long run but it's give and take especially where money concerned. Is this a wrong way of looking at it? 

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yd61lrm.jpg

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Ot

 

I know I'm nerding out but here's a track map to go with the Portal options if anyone cares. Trust me my wife is happy I'm sharing this with you guys and not her   :lol: plus I figured out how to link photos B-) .

 

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It says pervisions 

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why can't it go underground all the way to flatbush ave, where there are more spaces to climb up without tearing down so many private properties  :mellow:

It can go anyway were motivated take it or willing to pay for.  As I said before underground is the best way in a perfect world. I don't have a FEIS so I don't know what the full impact could or would be or the task at hand.  I'm just eyeballing what I know is technically possible from the little four years of engineering and planning I took and also what I know to be true from other modern projects in NYC like the AirTrain,Westside (7) and the SAS. I know we got 8 miles of an elevated automated system for just over 2 billion. Compared that with 2 billion for a mile or 4.5b for 2miles. I know this is Brooklyn it's prob a lot cheaper and there are other of factors at play. I think mainly for the MTA is going to be what can we manage , finish and get just enough. I'd take an elevated or part elevated over nothing. Chances are it's going to be compromise.

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So even at 2.4 million to acquire this land that's going pay the area and city back a million fold over the 50-80 years what are we really talking about? Besides that would you're going to pay that 2.4 back with the cost of building underground for the next 1.8 miles until that opening around Kings Hwy so now we're talking maybe less than 10 Million to Tenths if not hundreds of millions of dollars more to build underground for an extra few miles. If cost is a factor get it above ground as soon as possible. Quality wise I'm not going to argue a full subway is the best bet in the long run but it's give and take especially where money concerned. Is this a wrong way of looking at it? 

 

You need to realize that while money pays for it, the community has a very strong voice. No community in their right mind is going to accept a new el, even if the pictures and the studies say it's nice, because the pictures and the studies also made the LOMEX and the MIMEX look nice, and they had money, and guess how far they got. And unlike other community requests like a third (L) train tunnel, a full subway has a decent chance of happening. I am almost positive that they would rather accept a full subway stopping at Kings Highway rather than have an el traveling down the street to Kings Plaza.

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You need to realize that while money pays for it, the community has a very strong voice. No community in their right mind is going to accept a new el, even if the pictures and the studies say it's nice, because the pictures and the studies also made the LOMEX and the MIMEX look nice, and they had money, and guess how far they got. And unlike other community requests like a third (L) train tunnel, a full subway has a decent chance of happening. I am almost positive that they would rather accept a full subway stopping at Kings Highway rather than have an el traveling down the street to Kings Plaza.

I should also state that Senator Golden represents Marine Park, so that would not be an easy fight for the (MTA) at all.  The communities he represents are extremely vocal.  I know from having worked with his office on several (MTA) issues over the years, and he is relentless in fighting for this constituents.  Additionally, he serves on the Transportation Committee, and thus is in regular contact with the (MTA) regarding transportation issues.

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You need to realize that while money pays for it, the community has a very strong voice. No community in their right mind is going to accept a new el, even if the pictures and the studies say it's nice, because the pictures and the studies also made the LOMEX and the MIMEX look nice, and they had money, and guess how far they got. And unlike other community requests like a third (L) train tunnel, a full subway has a decent chance of happening. I am almost positive that they would rather accept a full subway stopping at Kings Highway rather than have an el traveling down the street to Kings Plaza.

Not saying you don't have a point. You remind me of myself 15 years ago with this statement. But from my experience, I don't know any type of business,deal or process at any level without compromise. I don't know if you've run or ran a business or had to broker a deal. Once again full subway is the best way I'm not arguing that at all. But when you say accept as in the community seems like where speaking about a zero sum game.  For this to be news someone wants service that way and in these area's or we wouldn't be talking about it. So then the City/MTA says okay we have some resources we'll pull this grant and allocate some money from here Let's build something. And you get Plan A,B and C and the community says we want  A and the City says C  B it is you meet halfway. Okay half subway half EL money's in play lets get started. But when you start talking it's A or nothing then guess what you get nothing . We'll add a few more buses have a nice day we'll put that money over here thanks.

 

If the MTA find's the money for a full subway that's awesome Who know's there might be a bigger play with zoning etc.  My question is you'd rather have 100% of nothing than 70% or even 45% of something?  I think it's a bit of youth and naïveté to say I'm not going to fold, compromise or be open to change in someway. And with people, it's emotion and partial truths until they start reaching Borough Hall in 15 minutes. Fall right into line... Being the smartest guy in the room can only take you so far I had to learn the hard way. If they vote they don't want it if it's a Elevated! Hey take the 46 and good luck.

My take.

(Hands up)

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I say underground to Kings Plaza is the best idea (if feasible)

 

 

Sent from my iPod touch using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

 

 

I worry that particular station would be flooded by storm surge so easliy, but other stations from the rest of the line should be fine.

In my opinion I think it isn't bad to have the line rises in Flatbush Ave

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Almost all of you have shared your views on the Utica route. The OP sez MTA is considering the extension from Flatbush Junction (2)(5). Would you do an elevated down Flatbush Ave? If so, where would the portal be at?

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Not saying you don't have a point. You remind me of myself 15 years ago with this statement. But from my experience, I don't know any type of business,deal or process at any level without compromise. I don't know if you've run or ran a business or had to broker a deal. Once again full subway is the best way I'm not arguing that at all. But when you say accept as in the community seems like where speaking about a zero sum game. For this to be news someone wants service that way and in these area's or we wouldn't be talking about it. So then the City/MTA says okay we have some resources we'll pull this grant and allocate some money from here Let's build something. And you get Plan A,B and C and the community says we want A and the City says C B it is you meet halfway. Okay half subway half EL money's in play lets get started. But when you start talking it's A or nothing then guess what you get nothing . We'll add a few more buses have a nice day we'll put that money over here thanks.

 

If the MTA find's the money for a full subway that's awesome Who know's there might be a bigger play with zoning etc. My question is you'd rather have 100% of nothing than 70% or even 45% of something? I think it's a bit of youth and naïveté to say I'm not going to fold, compromise or be open to change in someway. And with people, it's emotion and partial truths until they start reaching Borough Hall in 15 minutes. Fall right into line... Being the smartest guy in the room can only take you so far I had to learn the hard way. If they vote they don't want it if it's a Elevated! Hey take the 46 and good luck.

My take.

(Hands up)

Let's emphasize the word compromise. Hard.

 

Sent from my N9132 using Tapatalk

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Almost all of you have shared your views on the Utica route. The OP sez MTA is considering the extension from Flatbush Junction (2)(5). Would you do an elevated down Flatbush Ave? If so, where would the portal be at?

 

Firstly it is Flatbush Avenue. Secondly, no line should be built via Flatbush Avenue. It means that no service could be added on Nostrand Avenue south of Flatbush, and it makes a much-needed Utica Avenue Line less likely.

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Almost all of you have shared your views on the Utica route. The OP sez MTA is considering the extension from Flatbush Junction (2)(5). Would you do an elevated down Flatbush Ave? If so, where would the portal be at?

An extension of the (2)(5) to Kings Plaza is asinine.

 

 

Sent from my iPod touch using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

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Not saying you don't have a point. You remind me of myself 15 years ago with this statement. But from my experience, I don't know any type of business,deal or process at any level without compromise. I don't know if you've run or ran a business or had to broker a deal. Once again full subway is the best way I'm not arguing that at all. But when you say accept as in the community seems like where speaking about a zero sum game.  For this to be news someone wants service that way and in these area's or we wouldn't be talking about it. So then the City/MTA says okay we have some resources we'll pull this grant and allocate some money from here Let's build something. And you get Plan A,B and C and the community says we want  A and the City says C  B it is you meet halfway. Okay half subway half EL money's in play lets get started. But when you start talking it's A or nothing then guess what you get nothing . We'll add a few more buses have a nice day we'll put that money over here thanks.

 

If the MTA find's the money for a full subway that's awesome Who know's there might be a bigger play with zoning etc.  My question is you'd rather have 100% of nothing than 70% or even 45% of something?  I think it's a bit of youth and naïveté to say I'm not going to fold, compromise or be open to change in someway. And with people, it's emotion and partial truths until they start reaching Borough Hall in 15 minutes. Fall right into line... Being the smartest guy in the room can only take you so far I had to learn the hard way. If they vote they don't want it if it's a Elevated! Hey take the 46 and good luck.

My take.

(Hands up)

 

Here's the thing. I am, without a doubt, almost certain that the community would accept nothing, or as far underground as possible. People made the exact same ultimatum about an (N) to LaGuardia, and they were happy to get nothing. People are making the exact same ultimatum about the Rockaway Beach Branch, and most of the neighbors would rather have nothing instead of a park or a rail line. It will be the same here; either we'll have no subway or a situation like the Archer Avenue Line.

 

You people need to realize that outside of this forum, communities and people go with what they know. Everyone in this city has seen an el before. It doesn't matter that els today look like that, they won't care. Show them an example of the Van Wyck or the Dulles Toll Road with their els, and they'll think that you want to make Utica into the Van Wyck or the Dulles Toll Road.

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I guess my question for a (2)(5) extension. No matter Sheepshead or Marine Park is how to you clear the BayRidge with 450 feet to spare? The Bay Ridge predates the IRT so they had to have planned for it in some way seems a bit steep no ?

 

 

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So even at 2.4 million to acquire this land that's going pay the area and city back a million fold over the 50-80 years what are we really talking about? Besides that would you're going to pay that 2.4 back with the cost of building underground for the next 1.8 miles until that opening around Kings Hwy so now we're talking maybe less than 10 Million to Tenths if not hundreds of millions of dollars more to build underground for an extra few miles. If cost is a factor get it above ground as soon as possible. Quality wise I'm not going to argue a full subway is the best bet in the long run but it's give and take especially where money concerned. Is this a wrong way of looking at it? 

uEbWioD.png

yd61lrm.jpg

You could just have it use the existing portal, and then make the right down East NY Ave and then the left on Utica. That would require no private property at all (just a piece of a park; or at the most, it could pass over the Duane Reade).

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Here's the thing. I am, without a doubt, almost certain that the community would accept nothing, or as far underground as possible. People made the exact same ultimatum about an (N) to LaGuardia, and they were happy to get nothing. People are making the exact same ultimatum about the Rockaway Beach Branch, and most of the neighbors would rather have nothing instead of a park or a rail line. It will be the same here; either we'll have no subway or a situation like the Archer Avenue Line.

 

You people need to realize that outside of this forum, communities and people go with what they know. Everyone in this city has seen an el before. It doesn't matter that els today look like that, they won't care. Show them an example of the Van Wyck or the Dulles Toll Road with their els, and they'll think that you want to make Utica into the Van Wyck or the Dulles Toll Road.

I hear you and understand that people go with they know it's human nature I design UX/UI it's my job in and day out to make sure people don't get frustrated and the product is useful and familiar so I understand peoples need for patterns and interpretations of visuals as communication.  But you know what! This is the main reason why most people will never have more than what they have. I remember the (N) and hey the people spoke but don't smack my hand away then turn around and complain about travel times to the Airport. Back in the 60,-90's okay can understand" I go with what I know". There's way too many ways to get information now from a community standpoint and we should hold people accountable do your homework. As a designer and engineer is my job educate where needed and present the case and solve problems agile with input. If people opt out like the Rockaway Beach seems it's leaning towards . Great! We hear you but I don't want to hear complains about travel and guess what be accountable to your neighbors in surrounding area's when they come calling. That's the part that gets me.

 

As for the examples, anything I post here is with understanding or at least the hope we're not the average users. Just ideas to build off. question, probe, and challenge.  I'm not in love with the tools I'm in love with the tools can do. So you don't ever have to worry about me coming from an I love trains angle. 

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You could just have it use the existing portal, and then make the right down East NY Ave and then the left on Utica. That would require no private property at all (just a piece of a park; or at the most, it could pass over the Duane Reade).

 

In the State of New York, any parkland that is taken for any purpose must be replaced by an equivalent amount of parkland somewhere else.

 

The law exists for pretty good reason, but that means that parkland is essentially off limits unless the MTA somehow owns a bit of land in the area that they could afford to give away.

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