FINALLY! Citywide combination bus AND subway map!

[MassTransitHonchkrow]

Lucky you for having the flexibility to be able to take the slower method. If you're bouncing around between two jobs or between a job and school with set schedules (or if you're just really tired and need the extra sleep), you're pretty much forced to take the express bus, even if you don't like the higher fare.

If that was the case, I would utilize extra buses, which seems insane.

I know there's a separate pass. But I've made significant enough inroads using local and subway routes that I wouldn't know what to do with it.

I don't know what you're talking about, but there already is an unlimited card for the express bus. The Express Bus Plus card is $57.25 per week, and can also be used on the local buses and subways. That is is more than fair. I use the express bus almost daily and if I were paying using a pay-per-ride, the cost would easily be double that per week.

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I wouldn't have known.....

 

I didn't quite get what you were trying to get at by posting that Chicago map; the bus routes within city limits are all gray...

 

(the ones in that faded purple or w/e are of those that leave city limits, or strictly run outside of city limits - Much like how all the NICE routes are skyblue on the Queens bus map.... It's not an attempt of color variance of the routes within the city, like that of our bus maps)

 

Good thing I opened this 3rd page in a separate tab before I hit the post button.... Saved me a couple lengthy paragraphs....

 

The lines in his maps (Mr. Denaro) for the buses & subways are too thick to pull off in color (even in grayscale, it looks a hot mess)... I don't see it working for one borough even - Even if we take Queens (for example) where the subway system isn't nearly as expansive/spread out like in the Bronx or Brooklyn.....

 

The major difference between those maps (in the medium post; Mr. Denaro) & the map snippet Eric posted, are the line thicknesses....

 

I still want to get around to creating a 5-borough bus map of all my ideas shown on them (merging those blank borough bus maps that were carved out a couple years back).... But that's the extent of it.... I mean, we obviously have a 5 borough subway map, but a transit map (a combined bus & subway map) for the whole city? I can't say I have one iota of eagerness for something like that - colorized or not.....

 

More power to the guy to attempt at least the grayscaled version though

Agreed. It would make Queens seem more navigable. When it comes to subways, Queens is a neglected wasteland.

 

When the city started using color to designate subways, it threw everyone into confusion. I don't think we ever recovered from that.

 

Do you guys think an alternate map should be released that maintains the bullet PNG colors, but colors the IRT, IND, & BMT tracks distinctly? And a washout color for disused express tracks on a Vignelli style map?

 

Although "transit desert" is pushing it. I used to live in real transit deserts so seeing the term used south of I-287 is overdoing it.

 

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[Eric B]

And look at how tiny the font is, in the full-size image. If you wanted the smallest fonts in that to be at some barely-readable type, like, say, 8pt, you'd need to blow it up at least two or three times. A good transit map should be readable without a magnifying glass, particularly for the elderly and those with sight problems.

 

I guess it's hard to see with the little bullets they made for the bus routes. (they are easier to make out when reading the actual map before you).

In any case, I also meant to add that these kinds of maps would be really good for the new kiosks, where you can blow up an area. So you can just choose from the entire city, and then zoom in anywhere, and then all the buses and trains are there zoom into.

[Around the Horn]

Do you guys think an alternate map should be released that maintains the bullet PNG colors, but colors the IRT, IND, & BMT tracks distinctly? And a washout color for disused express tracks on a Vignelli style map?

 

NO WAY! I don't see what anyone other than rail fans gains from a map with colors for each "division", which don't exist anymore BTW. Anyone using the terms IRT, IND and BMT are using pure nostalgia. The only current distinction is A Division (numbers) vs B division (letters). (Former IND trackage is known as B-1 and former BMT trackage is B-2, when it comes to radio frequencies IIRC) The use of letters versus numbers is already a visual distinction between the two.

 

The current system of color by trunk is perfect and should never be changed. Now whether or not each service should have its own line on the map, is a different story...

 

 

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[checkmatechamp13]

If that was the case, I would utilize extra buses, which seems insane.

 

That makes zero sense. If you saved time by using the express bus, you would use that extra time to.....take more buses instead of going to your job or class?

 

I know there's a separate pass. But I've made significant enough inroads using local and subway routes that I wouldn't know what to do with it.

 

So you're basically saying that all you're doing with your life is busfanning and railfanning, and nothing else? I mean obviously, on a transit forum we enjoy transit enough to partake in those hobbies, but at the same time, you need to be more well-rounded. 

 

[bobtehpanda]

Do you guys think an alternate map should be released that maintains the bullet PNG colors, but colors the IRT, IND, & BMT tracks distinctly? And a washout color for disused express tracks on a Vignelli style map?

 

Two things:

 

1. IND and BMT is a mostly useless distinction at this point. Doing it by trunk line makes way more sense.

 

2. Why the hell would you show unused tracks on a map? It's not useful for anyone looking to utilize the service.

I guess it's hard to see with the little bullets they made for the bus routes. (they are easier to make out when reading the actual map before you).

In any case, I also meant to add that these kinds of maps would be really good for the new kiosks, where you can blow up an area. So you can just choose from the entire city, and then zoom in anywhere, and then all the buses and trains are there zoom into.

 

I mean, the other question would be, "why?" What would there be to gain in having one giant map instead of five or four? All you need to see is the bus map for your origin and your destination. (I could see a rationale for merging the Queens and Brooklyn maps since the networks are more interwoven, but that's about it.)

[Around the Horn]

Two things:

 

1. IND and BMT is a mostly useless distinction at this point. Doing it by trunk line makes way more sense.

 

2. Why the hell would you show unused tracks on a map? It's not useful for anyone looking to utilize the service.

 

 

I mean, the other question would be, "why?" What would there be to gain in having one giant map instead of five or four? All you need to see is the bus map for your origin and your destination. (I could see a rationale for merging the Queens and Brooklyn maps since the networks are more interwoven, but that's about it.)

I think the only real use for a five borough map of both the bus and subway would be the On the Go kiosks where you would be able to zoom in and out.

 

 

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[B35 via Church]

Do you guys think an alternate map should be released that maintains the bullet PNG colors, but colors the IRT, IND, & BMT tracks distinctly? And a washout color for disused express tracks on a Vignelli style map?

 

Although "transit desert" is pushing it. I used to live in real transit deserts so seeing the term used south of I-287 is overdoing it.

No to both....

 

...and who said anything about a transit desert?

 

.....What would there be to gain in having one giant map instead of five or four? All you need to see is the bus map for your origin and your destination....

Worse than that, the individual bus maps are barely used as it is by the general public....

 

Sure, the subway maps are utilized far more by the general public, but I can't really fathom much of anyone outside of NYC natives having a real use for an NYC transit/combined map...

 

You have that amount of people.... Now take away from that, the amount of the NYC natives that could really give a shit about any other bus route(s) than the ones they already utilize, or happen to know about, only, and I mean only because it's a few blocks away from where they live..... I'm not even talking about suburban-minded bus shunning either; I'm talking about urban minded New Yorkers that don't (care to) know the system not even near as much as we transit enthusiasts on here do.... This is a real realization I've came to grips to at a very young age, and at almost 35 now, I see no improvement..... There's other factors that contribute to this indifference and/or ignorance, but I'll spare that rant for another time......

 

But yeay, it's why you tend to get that stupefaction out of folks whenever there's some problem on their primary mode of commuting (it's ever so apparent on the subways moreso than the buses, but still)... Folks that's been living here 40, 50+ years & still don't know their (public) transit alternatives..... There's being set in your ways, and again, then there's complete ignorance.....

 

Let all of that sink in/factor in, and you would not be left with much people benefiting from an NYC transit/combined map..... This includes tourists & the occasional, or even (what I call) the "weekend out-of-towner"; folks from NJ, upstate NY, & even parts of PA that come to Manhattan to shop.....

[bobtehpanda]

Part of the reason why no one looks at the bus map is that the location of where it is makes it hard to look at, and it also doesn't help that even with the thing directly in front of your face it can be hard to make out what exactly your bus is doing, if you can even find it on the map.

 

The bus map should really be on the shelters and not on the buses themselves. If they are on the buses themselves, they should ideally face the aisle.

[Eric B]

I mean, the other question would be, "why?" What would there be to gain in having one giant map instead of five or four? All you need to see is the bus map for your origin and your destination. (I could see a rationale for merging the Queens and Brooklyn maps since the networks are more interwoven, but that's about it.)

Because if you're going from one part of the city to the other, intermodally, it's much easier than having to flip through multiple maps.

 

 

 (Former IND trackage is known as B-1 and former BMT trackage is B-2, when it comes to radio frequencies IIRC) 

(Actually, B1 is BMT, and B2 is IND. Think of it as from the oldest system to the newest; A-B1-B2)

[B35 via Church]

Part of the reason why no one looks at the bus map is that the location of where it is makes it hard to look at, and it also doesn't help that even with the thing directly in front of your face it can be hard to make out what exactly your bus is doing, if you can even find it on the map.

 

The bus map should really be on the shelters and not on the buses themselves. If they are on the buses themselves, they should ideally face the aisle.

What are you trying to say with that part in bold? My guess is that you're making a point about the infeasibility of obtaining a bus map.....

 

Yes the bus maps are cluttered (which there was a discussion on here about earlier this year IINM) & yes, the bus maps aren't exactly easy to get one's hands on....

 

My point is more about usefulness; even if bus maps were made easier to get one's hands on (at one point & time, you could go to any subway station & pick one up [for the borough said subway station is situated in] - but fewer & fewer booths even carry em anymore), I seriously doubt there'd be too much of a willingness to grab one (on a wide scale I mean; as far as the masses are concerned)..... Using that same train of thought, I can't fathom there would be anymore (or even close to being on par with the) amount of folks that are seeking subway maps, to wanting to grab full-on "transit" maps.... Putting that another way, the addition of bus routes to a subway map would be like offering hors d'oeuvres when I'm already devouring the main course....

 

The subway is the main course.

 

I do not remember the last time I've seen a bus map on a bus..... Regardless, I can agree that putting bus maps @ the shelters would make more people grab one (over placing them on the buses themselves)... I've noticed something about maps/timetables on buses.... It's as if some people believe that they're not for the taking; they're only there to look at, during your commute - afterwards, you must put them back (like magazines at the doctor's/dentists office).....  I see more people putting back timetables in the appropriate slots where they got them from (or on the floor, but that's another issue), than I do people keeping them after disembarking the bus....

 

Maybe off topic, but I believe those large scale neighborhood maps (the ones they have posted by the token booths at some subway stations, which I personally find to be very useful) are more sought after than bus maps..... I don't know when the MTA started posting them in the subway stations, but I have to say it's good that they did.....

 

Think that's all what I wanted to say, for now....

[MassTransitHonchkrow]

That makes zero sense. If you saved time by using the express bus, you would use that extra time to.....take more buses instead of going to your job or class?

 

 

So you're basically saying that all you're doing with your life is busfanning and railfanning, and nothing else? I mean obviously, on a transit forum we enjoy transit enough to partake in those hobbies, but at the same time, you need to be more well-rounded.

That's why I've ridden six other Hudson Valley agencies. I do like coaches, just not the MTA's. They set a bad example.

 

Well rounded is an understatement here...

 

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Two things:

 

1. IND and BMT is a mostly useless distinction at this point. Doing it by trunk line makes way more sense.

 

2. Why the hell would you show unused tracks on a map? It's not useful for anyone looking to utilize the service.

 

 

I mean, the other question would be, "why?" What would there be to gain in having one giant map instead of five or four? All you need to see is the bus map for your origin and your destination. (I could see a rationale for merging the Queens and Brooklyn maps since the networks are more interwoven, but that's about it.)

That is helpful to know, as it seems the system still feels different, although I do pay heed to the red signage at the end of each tunnel. The tracks are numbered and not directionally oriented, which implies to me that some flexibility can still be made...

 

I did say the bullet vectors should remain colored and pasted next to each station to avoid confusion.

 

And as for separate, please don't forget that just two months ago, the IRT failed to pull its weight and shut down. That's one third of the system and the busiest.

 

Leaving Astor Place (IRT) for 8th St - NYU (BMT) allowed me to get to Barclay's Center (Pacific St) while and trains were still bigger (and hot)...

 

I don't think you'll get why I consider it an OOST...

 

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[Around the Horn]

tracks are numbered and not directionally oriented, which implies to me that some flexibility can still be made...

 

What does this have to do with a subway map?

 

 

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[B35 via Church]

What does this have to do with a subway map?

Sounds as if he's referring to a track map....

 

That's why I've ridden six other Hudson Valley agencies. I do like coaches, just not the MTA's. They set a bad example.

 

Well rounded is an understatement here...

You've been trolling this forum long enough.....

 

The whole *MassTransitHonchkrow does all this riding on public transportation* narrative you continue to spew on here, has gotten tired....

It's high time forum staff on here become privy to your antics (if they haven't already)....

 

Anyone with any iota of discernment can tell that Checkmate was not referring to how many damn public transit agencies you've ridden on, when he spoke of being well-rounded....

 

So you're basically saying that all you're doing with your life is busfanning and railfanning, and nothing else?

 

You see a comment like this & feed into it, instead of trying to prove an inquiry like that wrong....

[Gotham Bus Co.]

https://medium.com/@anthonydenaro/mapping-nyc-transit-all-of-it-e16e76a95a0e#.2sffrajvv

 

Been wanting something like this for the longest. Even uses the separate line drawings like Vignelli and KICK. Only thing; I think he should have done the subway lines at least in the colors. (Also, I don't think he had to make the to JFK and the as separate lines).

Might be hard to read the entire one on the screen, but this would at least be good for the station wall maps.

 

Told the KICK guy about this, and he's apparently coming out with one as well.

 

A bus map is useless if it doesn't show streets for reference.

[Around the Horn]

I did say the bullet vectors should remain colored and pasted next to each station to avoid confusion.

 

It's still an incredibly bad idea to create a map based on a distinction that no longer exists.

 

As for the A division, the usage of numbers instead of letters already differentiates between it and the larger B division trains.

 

As for out of station transfers (not quite sure why you're bringing this up again but w/e), contactless smartcards can handle out of system transfers better than the magstripe MetroCard. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more out of station transfers with the new fare payment system. If it's something along the lines of London's Oyster, you could have a stand alone reader (kind of like those machines you swipe to check your MetroCard balance) which you tap on, then tap again at the other station and get a free transfer.

 

For example, let's say I'm transferring from the downtown to the downtown at Fulton Center. I get off the and pass through the turnstiles. Near the the turnstiles, is a validator with a smartcard reader ( in a different color to show this is for a transfer only). On it you could have a sticker or a sign nearby saying "Tap here for free transfer to Cortlandt Street only". You tap your card on that reader and walk through the Dey Street passageway to the , and tap in at the turnstiles there. The system recognizes that you "tapped out" at the at Fulton Street and gives you a free transfer.

 

(At least that's how I would do it...[emoji23])

 

 

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A bus map is useless if it doesn't show streets for reference.

Totally agree with this.

 

And + a million to B35 for that post...

 

 

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[BM5 via Woodhaven]

The whole *MassTransitHonchkrow does all this riding on public transportation* narrative you continue to spew on here, has gotten tired....

It's high time forum staff on here become privy to your antics (if they haven't already)....

 

Anyone with any iota of discernment can tell that Checkmate was not referring to how many damn public transit agencies you've ridden on, when he spoke of being well-rounded....

Yuki or qjt 2.0?

 

A bus map is useless if it doesn't show streets for reference. 

Is there even a way to improve the current bus maps. Yes, they are cluttered, and placing them on a combined transit map would not be as beneficial, but IDK if a slightly bigger scale is appropriate (for the individual bus maps, that is).

[Around the Horn]

Yuki, to his credit didn't brag about his transit exploits or feel he was superior to other members because of it. Mass Transit Honchkrow ( by the way, what the hell is a Honchkrow?) is a completely different animal from either of them.

 

 

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[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Yuki, to his credit didn't brag about his transit exploits or feel he was superior to other members because of it. Mass Transit Honchkrow ( by the way, what the hell is a Honchkrow?) is a completely different animal from either of them.

 

 

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Well, google states that its a flying pokemon. Funny that you mention the bold, because under the species name in the data table, it states "Big Boss". I did not know that either until I searched it up.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=Honchkrow&oq=Honchkrow&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[Around the Horn]

Well, google states that its a flying pokemon. Funny that you mention the bold, because under the species name in the data table, it states "Big Boss". I did not know that either until I searched it up.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=Honchkrow&oq=Honchkrow&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Wow. I'm a Pokemon fan (although I do like the original Yu Gi Oh better) and I totally did not get the reference. That just makes my post even funnier...

 

 

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[MysteriousBtrain]

Yuki, to his credit didn't brag about his transit exploits or feel he was superior to other members because of it. Mass Transit Honchkrow ( by the way, what the hell is a Honchkrow?) is a completely different animal from either of them.

 

 

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Honchkrow is a Pokemon from Gen IV. Evolved from Murkrow in the PKMN games.

But MT Honchkrow, idk the way I see it he's just someone who likes to explore. Don't know him personally, but to me dosent seem like a troll.

 

Maybe it's because I don't see his posts too often.

[Eric B]

A bus map is useless if it doesn't show streets for reference.

Since buses run on streets, then having the bus route there marks the street. You can just add the street name there like the current maps do. In fact, seeing that on the maps was one source of the realization that if they could do that on the subway map, then it shouldn't be too hard to just do what amounts to changing the colors of some of the streets from white to make them routes. And that's pretty much what this guy has done, except for making everything gray, with the buses as darker.

[LegoBrickBreaker101]

But MT Honchkrow, idk the way I see it he's just someone who likes to explore. Don't know him personally, but to me dosent seem like a troll.

 

Maybe it's because I don't see his posts too often.

Just read the last 3 pages of the Staten Island bus proposals thread...

[bobtehpanda]

Yuki or qjt 2.0?

 

Is there even a way to improve the current bus maps. Yes, they are cluttered, and placing them on a combined transit map would not be as beneficial, but IDK if a slightly bigger scale is appropriate (for the individual bus maps, that is).

 

Well, for starters, all those points of interest are not really all that interesting.

 

A bus map is useless if it doesn't show streets for reference.

 

You only really need major roads and the roads buses run on. There is really no benefit to me seeing, say, 20th St or 18th St if I can just discern where they are from the context.

 

What are you trying to say with that part in bold? My guess is that you're making a point about the infeasibility of obtaining a bus map.....

 

Yes the bus maps are cluttered (which there was a discussion on here about earlier this year IINM) & yes, the bus maps aren't exactly easy to get one's hands on....

 

My point is more about usefulness; even if bus maps were made easier to get one's hands on (at one point & time, you could go to any subway station & pick one up [for the borough said subway station is situated in] - but fewer & fewer booths even carry em anymore), I seriously doubt there'd be too much of a willingness to grab one (on a wide scale I mean; as far as the masses are concerned)..... Using that same train of thought, I can't fathom there would be anymore (or even close to being on par with the) amount of folks that are seeking subway maps, to wanting to grab full-on "transit" maps.... Putting that another way, the addition of bus routes to a subway map would be like offering hors d'oeuvres when I'm already devouring the main course....

 

The subway is the main course.

 

I do not remember the last time I've seen a bus map on a bus..... Regardless, I can agree that putting bus maps @ the shelters would make more people grab one (over placing them on the buses themselves)... I've noticed something about maps/timetables on buses.... It's as if some people believe that they're not for the taking; they're only there to look at, during your commute - afterwards, you must put them back (like magazines at the doctor's/dentists office).....  I see more people putting back timetables in the appropriate slots where they got them from (or on the floor, but that's another issue), than I do people keeping them after disembarking the bus....

 

Maybe off topic, but I believe those large scale neighborhood maps (the ones they have posted by the token booths at some subway stations, which I personally find to be very useful) are more sought after than bus maps..... I don't know when the MTA started posting them in the subway stations, but I have to say it's good that they did.....

 

Think that's all what I wanted to say, for now....

 

IIRC, bus maps have been placed for display behind the bus driver facing the back, which is a hell of a lot dumber than them on the sides facing the aisle. And I don't mean the ones that are folded up so you can grab one; I mean one displayed like the neighborhood maps in a subway station or like the subway map on a train. Something like this:

 

 

Instead of putting a bus map there, I would much rather prefer at major stops with CEMUSA shelters that they replace one of those glass panes with a bus map.

[B35 via Church]

Yuki or qjt 2.0?

 

Is there even a way to improve the current bus maps. Yes, they are cluttered, and placing them on a combined transit map would not be as beneficial, but IDK if a slightly bigger scale is appropriate (for the individual bus maps, that is).

1- I can't call it....

 

QJT's been to the moon & back, rode at least one route in every single public transportation agency across the United States & couldn't tell you a single thing when it came down to specifics of a given route.... Yuki's the guy that ever since he's discovered NICE bus, has rode every single trip of every route in Nassau county - to illustrate/fortify just how "in too deep" he is with his affiliation with that useless bus riders union.....

 

2- I'd say, by addition by subtraction..... For me, its the going overboard with listing of landmarks.

(The manhattan bus map is slowly starting to mimic a tourist map)

 

Yuki, to his credit didn't brag about his transit exploits or feel he was superior to other members because of it.

Mass Transit Honchkrow ( by the way, what the hell is a Honchkrow?) is a completely different animal from either of them.

I don't necessarily see it as bragging per se (although I can see where some would), but Yuki has this way of bringing up a bunch of bus routes/subway lines in discussions where it's not really called for....

 

Completely agree with the last statement (incl. not knowing what the hell a Honchkrow was... thought it may have been some rail station outside of the US or something, IDK)....

 

Honchkrow is a Pokemon from Gen IV. Evolved from Murkrow in the PKMN games.

But MT Honchkrow, idk the way I see it he's just someone who likes to explore. Don't know him personally, but to me dosent seem like a troll.

 

Maybe it's because I don't see his posts too often.

I can understand making a name for yourself (so to speak) on a forum, but this dude has gone beyond that.... Someway somehow, he just has to let you know that he travels a lot..... He's been on here long enough.

 

The best way I can put it, is that he doesn't show humility when he talks about how much he travels.... It's off-putting....  Since that post of his in the subway thread (the one about Metrocards or w/e), it's almost as if he's set out to make his mark on here that no one does more riding than him.....

 

Personally I think he's making a mockery of this entire forum.

[MysteriousBtrain]

I can understand making a name for yourself (so to speak) on a forum, but this dude has gone beyond that.... Someway somehow, he just has to let you know that he travels a lot..... He's been on here long enough.

 

The best way I can put it, is that he doesn't show humility when he talks about how much he travels.... It's off-putting.... Since that post of his in the subway thread (the one about Metrocards or w/e), it's almost as if he's set out to make his mark on here that no one does more riding than him.....

 

Personally I think he's making a mockery of this entire forum.

OK I took a peek at the SI thread and the last page of this thread.....

 

Yeah he talks too much about his "adventures" in traveling. It's one thing to compare a system to another, but just repeating the same thing over and over again does get old fast.

 

Maybe I'll look more into his posts before I make my final opinion about him later on, but I still don't find him that annoying (then again its kind of difficult to get annoyed on these forums).