FINALLY! Citywide combination bus AND subway map!

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yuki, to his credit didn't brag about his transit exploits or feel he was superior to other members because of it. Mass Transit Honchkrow ( by the way, what the hell is a Honchkrow?) is a completely different animal from either of them.

 

 

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LMAO... Even if he does brag, I've never really given it much thought.  Maybe it's because he's likely not a New Yorker.  No true New Yorker would feel the need to talk about their travels that much... We all travel a ****load via transit since it's the easiest way to get around.

[B35 via Church]

OK I took a peek at the SI thread and the last page of this thread.....

 

Yeah he talks too much about his "adventures" in traveling. It's one thing to compare a system to another, but just repeating the same thing over and over again does get old fast.

 

Maybe I'll look more into his posts before I make my final opinion about him later on, but I still don't find him that annoying (then again its kind of difficult to get annoyed on these forums).

Nah, you aint gotta do any of that..... I don't want you to go looking for posts of his for that reason.

 

LMAO... Even if he does brag, I've never really given it much thought.  Maybe it's because he's likely not a New Yorker.  No true New Yorker would feel the need to talk about their travels that much... We all travel a ****load via transit since it's the easiest way to get around.

It's more than just commuting with this guy.... It's the I'm the superior transit enthusiast crap, and I've seen this tried on multiple occasions on this & other transit forums before....

 

My ultimate point in all this is that riding buses & trains a lot really means nothing.

 

IIRC, bus maps have been placed for display behind the bus driver facing the back, which is a hell of a lot dumber than them on the sides facing the aisle. And I don't mean the ones that are folded up so you can grab one; I mean one displayed like the neighborhood maps in a subway station or like the subway map on a train. Something like this:

 

** photo of an interior of a bus **

 

Instead of putting a bus map there, I would much rather prefer at major stops with CEMUSA shelters that they replace one of those glass panes with a bus map.

Alright, now I get where you're coming from... and it is a valid point.

 

There's nowhere really you can see a bus map on/for public display (like you see the subway map on display at a train station) other than what's plastered behind the driver on a bus.... Worse, with all the bus moves & what not, you could be on a "Brooklyn" route (for example) & be on a bus with a bus map of an entirely different borough....

[Fresh Pond]

 

 

The tracks are numbered and not directionally oriented, which implies to me that some flexibility can still be made...

They actually are...

 

With the IRT, the first outermost track in a 4 track area going RAILROAD south is track 1, and the track numbers increasing towards the right (with regards to the chaining point of the line). In a 3 track area, the middle is always track M.

 

With the BMT/IND, odd-numbered tracks go railroad south, and even numbered tracks go railroad north. Track numbers increase with inner tracks, with regards to the rule stated above. In a normal 2-track area, it's generally this:

 

1-2 (sometimes as 3-4, the rule still applies)

 

4-track areas are labeled as:

 

1-3-4-2

 

3-track areas are generally labeled as track 3 AND 4, but the track number used depends on the direction you're going:

 

1-3/4-2 (south would be track 3, north would be track 4)

 

In the odd case of 6 track areas, the rule still applies:

 

1-3-5-6-4-2

[MassTransitHonchkrow]

What does this have to do with a subway map?

 

 

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My phone hasn't been with me much and it seems I may have replied using the wrong quotes.

 

That reply was in regards to alternative service routes if a division were to fail (like the IRT did not long ago).

 

The red signage was my attempt at indicating the difference in systems, and in a sense, aren't really unified.

 

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No to both....

 

...and who said anything about a transit desert?

 

Worse than that, the individual bus maps are barely used as it is by the general public....

 

Sure, the subway maps are utilized far more by the general public, but I can't really fathom much of anyone outside of NYC natives having a real use for an NYC transit/combined map...

 

You have that amount of people.... Now take away from that, the amount of the NYC natives that could really give a shit about any other bus route(s) than the ones they already utilize, or happen to know about, only, and I mean only because it's a few blocks away from where they live..... I'm not even talking about suburban-minded bus shunning either; I'm talking about urban minded New Yorkers that don't (care to) know the system not even near as much as we transit enthusiasts on here do.... This is a real realization I've came to grips to at a very young age, and at almost 35 now, I see no improvement..... There's other factors that contribute to this indifference and/or ignorance, but I'll spare that rant for another time......

 

But yeay, it's why you tend to get that stupefaction out of folks whenever there's some problem on their primary mode of commuting (it's ever so apparent on the subways moreso than the buses, but still)... Folks that's been living here 40, 50+ years & still don't know their (public) transit alternatives..... There's being set in your ways, and again, then there's complete ignorance.....

 

Let all of that sink in/factor in, and you would not be left with much people benefiting from an NYC transit/combined map..... This includes tourists & the occasional, or even (what I call) the "weekend out-of-towner"; folks from NJ, upstate NY, & even parts of PA that come to Manhattan to shop.....

I read the post on Google News before it made its way here. The reference has been bounced around either in reference to the South Bronx, or areas of Queens where bus service isn't available.

 

I applaud any map that is inclusive of Queens County as it is more underserved and a mess than Richmond County.

 

What I also wish is that out of agency bus signs were colored as the outside agency intended. It adds to the confusion when you can't make the N4 sign stand out from the Q4...

 

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It's still an incredibly bad idea to create a map based on a distinction that no longer exists.

 

As for the A division, the usage of numbers instead of letters already differentiates between it and the larger B division trains.

 

As for out of station transfers (not quite sure why you're bringing this up again but w/e), contactless smartcards can handle out of system transfers better than the magstripe MetroCard. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more out of station transfers with the new fare payment system. If it's something along the lines of London's Oyster, you could have a stand alone reader (kind of like those machines you swipe to check your MetroCard balance) which you tap on, then tap again at the other station and get a free transfer.

 

For example, let's say I'm transferring from the downtown to the downtown at Fulton Center. I get off the and pass through the turnstiles. Near the the turnstiles, is a validator with a smartcard reader ( in a different color to show this is for a transfer only). On it you could have a sticker or a sign nearby saying "Tap here for free transfer to Cortlandt Street only". You tap your card on that reader and walk through the Dey Street passageway to the , and tap in at the turnstiles there. The system recognizes that you "tapped out" at the at Fulton Street and gives you a free transfer.

 

(At least that's how I would do it...[emoji23])

 

 

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Totally agree with this.

 

And + a million to B35 for that post...

 

 

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OK. Then its a capacity issue? So the MetroCard only has the ability to exempt the Lex Pair?

 

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They actually are...

 

With the IRT, the first outermost track in a 4 track area going RAILROAD south is track 1, and the track numbers increasing towards the right (with regards to the chaining point of the line). In a 3 track area, the middle is always track M.

 

With the BMT/IND, odd-numbered tracks go railroad south, and even numbered tracks go railroad north. Track numbers increase with inner tracks, with regards to the rule stated above. In a normal 2-track area, it's generally this:

 

1-2 (sometimes as 3-4, the rule still applies)

 

4-track areas are labeled as:

 

1-3-4-2

 

3-track areas are generally labeled as track 3 AND 4, but the track number used depends on the direction you're going:

 

1-3/4-2 (south would be track 3, north would be track 4)

 

In the odd case of 6 track areas, the rule still applies:

 

1-3-5-6-4-2

That's good to know. Thanks. ^-^

 

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[Around the Horn]

[quote name="MassTransitHonchkrow" post="891649" timestamp="

 

OK. Then its a capacity issue? So the MetroCard only has the ability to exempt the Lex Pair?

 

The issue with the MetroCard is that there is no way to know where a person got off. Technically, anyone can get a free ride at the other station on the Lex Pair, as long as they swiped in within the last two hours. The MTA limits OOS transfer locations to mitigate against this.

 

That's why I suggested a stand alone validator for the new payment system. You'd tell the system that you got off at one of the stations and then when you tap back in at the other, it would recognize your transfer (London uses a special pink stand alone validator (as opposed to the normal yellow validator at the gates) to determine if you should be charged for traveling through zone one or not, so the technology is possible)

[bobtehpanda]

Because if you're going from one part of the city to the other, intermodally, it's much easier than having to flip through multiple maps.

 

 

(Actually, B1 is BMT, and B2 is IND. Think of it as from the oldest system to the newest; A-B1-B2)

 

The flip side of this is that with a subway map, distorting geography is really easy because most people do not really have a sense of how far apart something is underground. On a bus map, you always want to keep the same relative scale even if you go with something closer to a diagram, because you can tell how far a bus has travelled by looking outside the window. To have everything in Lower Manhattan be both relatively accurate in terms of scale and legible, you would need to blow up the rest of the boroughs ridiculously far. And you can't use insets for that purpose really, unless you want to have like ten of them scattered across the map - it's not intuitive to use insets.

I applaud any map that is inclusive of Queens County as it is more underserved and a mess than Richmond County.

 

I don't know which is more ludicrous, the fact that this statement actually got made, or that anyone within the tri-state area referred to Staten Island as "Richmond County".

[Union Tpke]

The flip side of this is that with a subway map, distorting geography is really easy because most people do not really have a sense of how far apart something is underground.

 

I do and that is something that really bothers me about the Vignelli maps. For me it can be distorted to an extent.

 

On a bus map, you always want to keep the same relative scale even if you go with something closer to a diagram, because you can tell how far a bus has travelled by looking outside the window. To have everything in Lower Manhattan be both relatively accurate in terms of scale and legible, you would need to blow up the rest of the boroughs ridiculously far. And you can't use insets for that purpose really, unless you want to have like ten of them scattered across the map - it's not intuitive to use insets.

 

I don't know which is more ludicrous, the fact that this statement actually got made, or that anyone within the tri-state area referred to Staten Island as "Richmond County".

[B35 via Church]

I don't know which is more ludicrous, the fact that this statement actually got made, or that anyone within the tri-state area referred to Staten Island as "Richmond County".

Definitely the former.

[bobtehpanda]

@Union Tpke: To be fair, all of the subway maps, from Hagstrom to today's, are distorted. It is a pipe dream to ever actually show the subway at anything remotely close to scale.

[Union Tpke]

@Union Tpke: To be fair, all of the subway maps, from Hagstrom to today's, are distorted. It is a pipe dream to ever actually show the subway at anything remotely close to scale.

 

I know, but I said to an extent. I am fine the way the current subway map is, but if it is distorted more it is fine if it is not too much, and if it comes with more benefits like a clearer map.  (e.g. the Kick Map)

[CenSin]

The flip side of this is that with a subway map, distorting geography is really easy because most people do not really have a sense of how far apart something is underground. On a bus map, you always want to keep the same relative scale even if you go with something closer to a diagram, because you can tell how far a bus has travelled by looking outside the window. To have everything in Lower Manhattan be both relatively accurate in terms of scale and legible, you would need to blow up the rest of the boroughs ridiculously far. And you can't use insets for that purpose really, unless you want to have like ten of them scattered across the map - it's not intuitive to use insets.

Even on an elevated line, people rarely look outside. They prefer to dwell within their own world.

[Union Tpke]

Even on an elevated line, people rarely look outside. They prefer to dwell within their own world.

 

People are really like that? That is one of my favorite parts of elevated lines. You are able to look down at life below. You are able to see what neighborhoods you don't go to are like. And you get to feel the speed of the train more as you can watch yourself go block by block.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

People are really like that? That is one of my favorite parts of elevated lines. You are able to look down at life below. You are able to see what neighborhoods you don't go to are like. And you get to feel the speed of the train more as you can watch yourself go block by block.

Yeah because they all have their faces buried in a damn cell phone... 

[MassTransitHonchkrow]

The issue with the MetroCard is that there is no way to know where a person got off. Technically, anyone can get a free ride at the other station on the Lex Pair, as long as they swiped in within the last two hours. The MTA limits OOS transfer locations to mitigate against this.

 

That's why I suggested a stand alone validator for the new payment system. You'd tell the system that you got off at one of the stations and then when you tap back in at the other, it would recognize your transfer (London uses a special pink stand alone validator (as opposed to the normal yellow validator at the gates) to determine if you should be charged for traveling through zone one or not, so the technology is possible)

That's a good point. Thank you for clarifying it. In a sense of capacity, it might be unneeded.

 

You mentioned how to keep track. Xfers are held for 2 hours, so swiping any of those terminals within the limit would count as an Xfer. So in reality, maybe "pairs" was bad terminology.

 

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[CenSin]

Yeah because they all have their faces buried in a damn cell phone... 

I was going to 25 Avenue on the train from Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue to pick up a cake. I missed my stop and got off at Bay Parkway instead due to reading a very interesting article on my phone.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I was going to 25 Avenue on the train from Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue to pick up a cake. I missed my stop and got off at Bay Parkway instead due to reading a very interesting article on my phone.

It was very interesting huh....   

[CenSin]

It was very interesting huh....   

Science, mathematics, and philosophy are my form of entertainment.

[Eric B]

Since I realized this was not a pdf, but a regular png, I used Paint, and was able to color the subway lines (in pastel versions of the trunk colors), and it looks pretty nice with the subway like a "background", and is a bit easier to make out. I also did the SBS routes, but the regular bus routes were too thin for the "fill with color" feature to go further than a pixel at a time.

Again, he really should do it in color!

[MassTransitHonchkrow]

Since I realized this was not a pdf, but a regular png, I used Paint, and was able to color the subway lines (in pastel versions of the trunk colors), and it looks pretty nice with the subway like a "background", and is a bit easier to make out. I also did the SBS routes, but the regular bus routes were too thin for the "fill with color" feature to go further than a pixel at a time.

Again, he really should do it in color!

Admirable of you. [emoji4]

 

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[Trainmaster5]

People are really like that? That is one of my favorite parts of elevated lines. You are able to look down at life below. You are able to see what neighborhoods you don't go to are like. And you get to feel the speed of the train more as you can watch yourself go block by block.

I've had a bus/subway pass for most of my life. When I was in elementary school and on to my high school days I learned the neighborhoods of the boroughs by observation. Bus or El made it so much easier to learn about neighborhood characteristics and the different ethnic groups who inhabited those areas. I never considered it bus fanning or rail fanning but just a quest for knowledge. Made a difference in Queens where an address could be a street, avenue, lane, place, road, or boulevard located in LIC or next to Corona train yard miles away. The unfortunate part was that because of it's location my knowledge of Staten Island is/was limited to the area around Willowbrook, Victory Blvd, Clove Lake, etc From the ferry to Willowbrook and that was it.. I was an adult before I learned there was a housing project on the island. As much as I love to read I always have my eyes open when on public transport, for reasons good and bad. Carry on.

[MassTransitHonchkrow]

I've had a bus/subway pass for most of my life. When I was in elementary school and on to my high school days I learned the neighborhoods of the boroughs by observation. Bus or El made it so much easier to learn about neighborhood characteristics and the different ethnic groups who inhabited those areas. I never considered it bus fanning or rail fanning but just a quest for knowledge. Made a difference in Queens where an address could be a street, avenue, lane, place, road, or boulevard located in LIC or next to Corona train yard miles away. The unfortunate part was that because of it's location my knowledge of Staten Island is/was limited to the area around Willowbrook, Victory Blvd, Clove Lake, etc From the ferry to Willowbrook and that was it.. I was an adult before I learned there was a housing project on the island. As much as I love to read I always have my eyes open when on public transport, for reasons good and bad. Carry on.

I understand. I use my powers of observation in tandem with public transit because transit and I share a common goal - to make it easier to connect with others.

 

I often remain solitary because many New Yorkers act like childish Spartans, but also because many New Yorkers are literally out of touch and/or mind.

 

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[Eric B]

So now; I've colorized all the buses of Manhattan (in many places, the fill could be done in one pixel wide strips, and in a few places, I traced over it with a line. (Still many little pixels skipped, but it gives the idea). Tomorrow I might do Brooklyn, which should still be fairly easy like Manhattan as there are a lot of straight streets. But that will be it for me.

 

Looks pretty nice. Want to post a clip of it, but I don't know how that figures with copyright.

[Eric B]

Figure it should be OK to do these two little clips, but here is part of my colorization of it. Again, he should really do this, and get it into the subway somehow, even if as some sort of ad (like the Lyft ad that was a map).

[MassTransitHonchkrow]

No express buses, boo!! ( )

 

In all seriousness, this is an interesting concept, but had to be a bitch to work with (and likely so given how the guy mentioned it). IDK if he could have still colored the subway lines in though, but maybe in light/faded colors.

Express buses don't provide seamless Xfer since they cost $6.50 so it would be impractical for the penny pincher

 

???? Eric Shields | #MassTransitHonchkrow ????

THE Hudson Valley's essential Fare-blazer ????

[Lance]

I finally got around to this. I was actually waiting for a crisp PDF version of this map so that I may give a better commentary. Since it appears there isn't a PDF version coming out any time soon, or perhaps I have just not been able to find it, I'll simply comment on what is available. If I repeat a previous comment, it's completely coincidental.

 

With that preface, I have to say, I don't really like this map. The concept is nice in itself, especially the subway-SBS combined map, but the execution leaves a lot to be desired. The all-in-one local bus/subway map is even worse in my opinion. Looking at the subway/SBS map, the design is extremely boxy for lack of a better term. I get why the 30/45 degree combination was used; it just does not look right. There are too many jagged edges on the landmasses and park borders to make this look good. It all reminds of a video game that hasn't completely rendered correctly.

 

On the subject of the full bus/subway combination map, can you say 50 shades of grey? While the jagged edges of the other map are still present in this version, that is not my major concern with this map. It's the fact I cannot make heads or tails of this thing at all. And for someone who lives and breathes maps, that's saying something. It's like someone saw the color explosion maps of the '60s and '70s and decided to go in the complete opposite direction, removing all of the colors and leaving everything in grayscale. For the average person trying to route their trip, working this map would be a trying exercise to decipher what's a subway route and which is a bus, especially in the outer boroughs.

 

I see Eric B has taken it upon himself to colorize the routes to make them stand out a bit. I don't see even that working out because that just creates the same issue that plagued the aforementioned post-Chrystie subway maps - which is too many colors and too much emphasis makes the entire thing unreadable.

 

All in all, this map, while an interesting thought exercise, is an utter failure in terms of its execution. A major problem with a lot of these "revolutionary" maps is that they never take into account of their users and the placement of said maps. The idea is that if this map proved popular, it would be placed prominently in subway stations and in various bus shelters, especially as the latter shifts to digital advertising. The problem is that these maps would have to be enormous to see all of the detail that's crammed into them, which isn't a possibility. The only way I can see this map used in its present form as some from of dynamic mapping tool similar to Google's routing code.

 

On a related note, I noticed that VG8 mentioned there aren't any express buses shown on this map. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought that most express bus riders really don't use the subway or local buses. With that thought, including express buses on an already cramped local bus/subway map would be pointless. Perhaps I'm wrong; I'm sure I'll get some comments on it either way.