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Guest Charles

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Well ok, I may have gone a bit overboard there. But if buses are not even packed, I don't see why riders should not be paying more. If they can run buses so that every bus is at least 80% full, then they deserve their one seat ride.

If they cut service for local buses and subways, then it's only fair to have cuts for express buses to make them more efficient by carrying more people. Not to mention cutting down on the emissions.

The problem with the BM's is that the 2 Terminal system does not work IMO you have Buses leaving from Downtown and MidTown simultaneously which makes no sense thats why Buses are half full and the BM5 not properly serviced thats why some people take the Bus inbound and take the train outbound It would work better if all the BM's started from 57th street and followed the path of the

X27 & X28 and Staten Island Express Buses down Broadway It's real dumb 2 have all the SUPER EXPRESS start from wall street

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The reason why certain express routes have such high costs per rider is because they travel long distances. They can be crowded, yet inefficient. Take for example the X22 in Staten Island. It is always over 80% full, yet has a cost of $10.84 per passenger.

I agree that express routes should meet a certain standard of crowding in order to have their service maintained. That is why there should've been some more restructuring of express routes (For example, as I said in a post a few months back, the BxM6 and BxM10). Each route should be evaluated on a run-by-run basis to see if certain runs could be eliminated, or even if off-peak service should be eliminated.

By the way, there were cuts in express bus service. The X6, X16, X18, X20, X25, X29, X32, X51, X90, QM22, and QM23 were eliminated, the X13/X14, X27/X37, X28/X38, BxM4A/BxM4B, and BxM7A/BxM7B were restructured with each other, and the X1 was cut back to 23rd Street rush hours. Lighter ridership routes were eliminated/combined with other routes the same way local services were.

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The problem with the BM's is that the 2 Terminal system does not work IMO you have Buses leaving from Downtown and MidTown simultaneously which makes no sense thats why Buses are half full and the BM5 not properly serviced thats why some people take the Bus inbound and take the train outbound It would work better if all the BM's started from 57th street and followed the path of the

X27 & X28 and Staten Island Express Buses down Broadway It's real dumb 2 have all the SUPER EXPRESS start from wall street

 

I don't see why the MTA didn't do the same thing with the BM1/2/3/4 that they did with the X27/X37 and X28/X38 (as you said, combine the Lower Manhattan and Midtown Manhattan branches). Off-peak, all buses make all stops, so everybody still gets a stop (though you could argue that PM rush hour riders no longer have the option of waiting on Church Street, and vice-versa with AM riders not having direct access to Water Street. Still, X13.X14 riders have to deal with it).

As far as the super expresses from Wall Street and 36th Street/6th Avenue, there are only a few trips, Unless they are less than 75% full, they should remain. I think the purpose is to offer people who would otherwise take the subway a faster trip into Queens.

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The problem with the BM's is that the 2 Terminal system does not work IMO you have Buses leaving from Downtown and MidTown simultaneously which makes no sense thats why Buses are half full and the BM5 not properly serviced thats why some people take the Bus inbound and take the train outbound It would work better if all the BM's started from 57th street and followed the path of the

X27 & X28 and Staten Island Express Buses down Broadway It's real dumb 2 have all the SUPER EXPRESS start from wall street

 

Bingo !

 

exactly why on one day, you will see a normally lowly used line like the BM4 (the lowest of the BM's) actually almost get SRO (due to delays or w/e)... and a BM (whatever) half empty, or dam near no one on it, that arrive afterwards....

 

I didn't take any of the "BM's" home today, but what I've long noticed in lower manhattan, is the majority of people are on bm2's & bm3's (and are also waiting for bm2's or bm3's, to boot)... these two routes have the highest propensity to reach SRO levels (I've been on a couple BM2's where people were actually standing... some sight... lol).....

 

oh, ever since BM5's were shortened to go no further than starrett city, ridership died (when command had the BQM1, it used to travel to canarsie; well, more runs than current bm2 to starrett).... part of the reason why there's a drastic difference in usage b/w today's BM2 & BM5....

 

correction bro... that's the QM1/a that makes that stop @ wall st, then goes express to queens... all the "BM" super expresses are buses that bypass lower manhattan (like what the x37 & 38 do)...

 

I think you meant to say, all the BM buses that start at church st in lwr. manhattan... the reason I don't care much for those short runs is b/c service ends too early... looking at the timetable for the bm1 (for example) on the mta site, that last bus out of church st doesn't leave at no 6:50pm... rule of thumb is, if you don't get to that stop over there on park row before 6:15, you're SOL... you will be walking to Pearl st, to catch a bus coming from midtown....

 

how do I know that?

b/c I've gotten burned in the past by waiting for a BM bus @ that stop @ park row before, when I didn't know any better... a couple times (b/w 6:15 & 7pm)...it's enough for me to walk from christopher st... so to have to walk again, from park row to pearl st.... well, yeh...

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correction bro... that's the QM1/a that makes that stop @ wall st, then goes express to queens... all the "BM" super expresses are buses that bypass lower manhattan (like what the x37 & 38 do)...

 

I think you meant to say, all the BM buses that start at church st in lwr. manhattan... the reason I don't care much for those short runs is b/c service ends too early... looking at the timetable for the bm1 (for example) on the mta site, that last bus out of church st doesn't leave at no 6:50pm... rule of thumb is, if you don't get to that stop over there on park row before 6:15, you're SOL... you will be walking to Pearl st, to catch a bus coming from midtown....

 

If you mean the QM1/A super expresses, that doesnt serve Wall Street, I think the super express runs via 3rd or 6th Avenue, It's one of the two but I forgot which one, UGH! I've only caught it once in Queens. The downtown QM1/A goes via the FDR & through the Queens-Midtown tunnel.

 

A few of the BM buses that start out of Lower Manhattan also does some 57th Street trips after their first BM/Wall Street trip, but its usually the buses between the 5pm and 6pm trips. Though I must say, Downtown Trips end too early, the latest the trips should end is between 7:30 - 8PM, I always tend to see a line of passengers out there waiting for the next bus by Battery Place, especially for the BMs.

 

When riding with KR on his old QM1 on his 2nd trip to Queens, we were behind a V CNG that either interlined with a B103 or finished an express run, and apparently it did finish an express run because it was a regular downtown bus, so there are some downtown B/Os that do the 57th Street portion as well.

 

But with the recent decision to axe CNGs from the BM express, there have been operators that have been doing many different trips, one would 57th then Downtown & Vice-Versa, or some would do all of their Downtown trips then swing up to 57th Street to finish their day. It hasnt been easy for them since the CNGs got taken off those lines.

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If you mean the QM1/A super expresses, that doesnt serve Wall Street, I think the super express runs via 3rd or 6th Avenue, It's one of the two but I forgot which one, UGH! I've only caught it once in Queens. The downtown QM1/A goes via the FDR & through the Queens-Midtown tunnel.

 

A few of the BM buses that start out of Lower Manhattan also does some 57th Street trips after their first BM/Wall Street trip, but its usually the buses between the 5pm and 6pm trips. Though I must say, Downtown Trips end too early, the latest the trips should end is between 7:30 - 8PM, I always tend to see a line of passengers out there waiting for the next bus by Battery Place, especially for the BMs.

 

When riding with KR on his old QM1 on his 2nd trip to Queens, we were behind a V CNG that either interlined with a B103 or finished an express run, and apparently it did finish an express run because it was a regular downtown bus, so there are some downtown B/Os that do the 57th Street portion as well.

 

But with the recent decision to axe CNGs from the BM express, there have been operators that have been doing many different trips, one would 57th then Downtown & Vice-Versa, or some would do all of their Downtown trips then swing up to 57th Street to finish their day. It hasnt been easy for them since the CNGs got taken off those lines.

 

oh, there is a downtown Qm1/a super express that exist bro... it makes that one pick up over there at the wall st stop (on water st), then runs nonstop to Queens... been on it before; my one ride on it wasn't so "super" though, as it got stuck in QMT traffic.... go figure...

 

I don't know about the 3rd av QM1/a's, but walking along 6th av, I do see super expresses on the route... if it behaves anything like the downtown super exp., I'm assuming it makes that one pickup @ 36th st, then runs nonstop to queens.... so if you say it's one of the two branches that runs the super exp. on it (taking your word for it on that note), it has to be the 6th av branch.... of course, KR can confirm this for us....

 

 

Regarding the BM buses, I was solely referring to buses in service (obviously, there's no "BM" service that starts in lwr manhattan picking up passengers, runs up to midtown to pick up more passengers during the same trip, then shoots back to brooklyn)...

 

Whether there are some b/o's that do (inbound) lwr. manhattan trips, that deadhead up to 57th afterwards to do a (outbound) trip back to Brooklyn, I wouldn't know for sure.... but I wouldn't doubt that that happens... There are SC (spring creek) buses parked all over the place on 57th itself, on 2nd av around 57th/58th, and even over there under the queensboro bridge exit ramp, over there by the q60 terminal.... I also wouldn't doubt there being b/o's that finished an inbound midtown trip (57th), deadheading back to lwr manhattan, to do an outbound trip from there back to brooklyn.....

 

Agreed that the lwr. manhattan trips on the BM's should run later... and to be honest, I think they begin too early also....

 

 

....and the line of passengers you see over by battery place... I'm one of them... that's how I know the majority of ppl. are waiting for BM2's & BM3's... with no rhyme or reason behind it, I either wait @ the state st stop, or the west st stop.... I used to wait at the coenties stop, but I don't take the (1) to south ferry to walk over there anymore.... almost got into it w/ a couple of those skateboarders (they do their little x-games shit over there around the BM1-4 west st stop also, but it's later in the day [around 7-7:30pm], b/c there's usually more ppl. waiting for buses b/w 5-7pm; there's a x27/28/29 stop on that same block as well).....

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Thank goodness the BM Expresses don't run Sundays. I barely see any passengers on the BM Express buses on Saturdays.

 

I agree with Matt, most BM buses are 22xx on Saturdays for less ridership on Saturdays

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Something just came to mind talking about the Super Express does anyone think that they will revive the X27 & X28 Super Express with the phasing out of the X37 & X38 which essentially was a Super Express I know the old X27 & X28 used the west side west street to the BBT

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Yep, I think there are gonna end up being x27 & x28 super expresses at some point... made similar remarks regarding the matter in posts in the past, as well...

Bay ridge & Bensonhurst riders (respectively) will write their politicians or w/e, and some type of service that bypasses lower manhattan will end up being the end result....

 

IMO, you can sacrifice some (local) 27's & 28's for some super express runs during the rush..... although you don't necessarily have to have the same amount of super exp. 27/28 runs in the future, compared to the number of current 37/38's there are now....

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So you're saying that, basically, the X37 and X38 would be revived, but go up West Street instead of the FDR Drive. What would be the first/last stop in Manhattan if they were to follow that pattern?

According to the new Brooklyn bus map, some X27/X28 runs will start at Broadway/Thomas Street. More of an argument for some runs to bypass Lower Manhattan altogether.

I agree that there are too many X37/X38 runs. They run for 2.5-3 hours in the morning and 4-5 hours in the afternoon. That is a bit much.

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So you're saying that, basically, the X37 and X38 would be revived, but go up West Street instead of the FDR Drive. What would be the first/last stop in Manhattan if they were to follow that pattern?

According to the new Brooklyn bus map, some X27/X28 runs will start at Broadway/Thomas Street. More of an argument for some runs to bypass Lower Manhattan altogether.

I agree that there are too many X37/X38 runs. They run for 2.5-3 hours in the morning and 4-5 hours in the afternoon. That is a bit much.

 

Bus Op' 3319 was just informing us of what the old 27/28 used to do...

(which I'll admit, I didn't know they used to take west st)...

 

Looking at this new brooklyn bus map (the one w/ which reflects the cuts), I don't see anything on the x27/28 that depicts it'll terminate @ B'way/Thomas?... I know the short turns (and there's quite a bit of runs that do so) in the AM hrs, all stop @ 23rd st....

 

What I think will end up happening, as far as super exp's on the two routes go, will be gradual...

have 3 runs on each route skip lower manhattan during the am rush & the pm rush...

 

in other words:

3 x27 super exp. runs in the am rush

3 x27 super exp. runs in the pm rush

3 x28 super exp. runs in the am rush

3 x28 super exp. runs in the pm rush

 

something like that, to start....

as opposed to (currently) 15-20 runs on the x37 & x38 in each direction... that is highly excessive...

 

and yeh, the terminal would be the same, over on 57th st....

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oh, there is a downtown Qm1/a super express that exist bro... it makes that one pick up over there at the wall st stop (on water st), then runs nonstop to Queens... been on it before; my one ride on it wasn't so "super" though, as it got stuck in QMT traffic.... go figure...

 

I don't know about the 3rd av QM1/a's, but walking along 6th av, I do see super expresses on the route... if it behaves anything like the downtown super exp., I'm assuming it makes that one pickup @ 36th st, then runs nonstop to queens.... so if you say it's one of the two branches that runs the super exp. on it (taking your word for it on that note), it has to be the 6th av branch.... of course, KR can confirm this for us....

 

 

Regarding the BM buses, I was solely referring to buses in service (obviously, there's no "BM" service that starts in lwr manhattan picking up passengers, runs up to midtown to pick up more passengers during the same trip, then shoots back to brooklyn)...

 

Whether there are some b/o's that do (inbound) lwr. manhattan trips, that deadhead up to 57th afterwards to do a (outbound) trip back to Brooklyn, I wouldn't know for sure.... but I wouldn't doubt that that happens... There are SC (spring creek) buses parked all over the place on 57th itself, on 2nd av around 57th/58th, and even over there under the queensboro bridge exit ramp, over there by the q60 terminal.... I also wouldn't doubt there being b/o's that finished an inbound midtown trip (57th), deadheading back to lwr manhattan, to do an outbound trip from there back to brooklyn.....

 

Agreed that the lwr. manhattan trips on the BM's should run later... and to be honest, I think they begin too early also....

 

 

....and the line of passengers you see over by battery place... I'm one of them... that's how I know the majority of ppl. are waiting for BM2's & BM3's... with no rhyme or reason behind it, I either wait @ the state st stop, or the west st stop.... I used to wait at the coenties stop, but I don't take the (1) to south ferry to walk over there anymore.... almost got into it w/ a couple of those skateboarders (they do their little x-games shit over there around the BM1-4 west st stop also, but it's later in the day [around 7-7:30pm], b/c there's usually more ppl. waiting for buses b/w 5-7pm; there's a x27/28/29 stop on that same block as well).....

 

Hmm, I gotta find that Wall Street super express then, I have never seen it before. Whenever I busfan there, I'm there from 2:30 to 7:30 just catching all the good shit out there until the end of Rush Hour. Most Downtown trips end too early except for the QM1/A because that runs later into to the hours of at least 8PM IIRC.

 

The Schedule with the BM routes become horrendous after 7:30, hoards of people always waiting for one of the four routes while the QMs scheduling mostly ends at 8pm. I think all downtown BM/QM trips should just end at 8-8:30pm for the latest because there is usually hoards of people waiting at certain stops, especially at the one by State Street & Broadway, then maintain the regular schedule after Rush Hours.

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Bus Op' 3319 was just informing us of what the old 27/28 used to do...

(which I'll admit, I didn't know they used to take west st)...

 

Looking at this new brooklyn bus map (the one w/ which reflects the cuts), I don't see anything on the x27/28 that depicts it'll terminate @ B'way/Thomas?... I know the short turns (and there's quite a bit of runs that do so) in the AM hrs, all stop @ 23rd st....

 

What I think will end up happening, as far as super exp's on the two routes go, will be gradual...

have 3 runs on each route skip lower manhattan during the am rush & the pm rush...

 

in other words:

3 x27 super exp. runs in the am rush

3 x27 super exp. runs in the pm rush

3 x28 super exp. runs in the am rush

3 x28 super exp. runs in the pm rush

 

something like that, to start....

as opposed to (currently) 15-20 runs on the x37 & x38 in each direction... that is highly excessive...

 

and yeh, the terminal would be the same, over on 57th st....

 

Look at the service notes section. It says that there is service to/from Thomas Street from 6:57 AM - 8:23 AM/4:30 PM - 6:51 PM (X27) and 6:33 AM - 8:04 AM/5:00 PM - 6:51 PM (X28)

The service notes section for Brooklyn is at: http://mta.info/nyct/service/RouteChanges/pdf/busbkln2-710.pdf

 

By the way, I think it should be more like 5-6 super express runs, instead of 3, similar to the X12/X42 in Staten Island.

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Look at the service notes section. It says that there is service to/from Thomas Street from 6:57 AM - 8:23 AM/4:30 PM - 6:51 PM (X27) and 6:33 AM - 8:04 AM/5:00 PM - 6:51 PM (X28)

The service notes section for Brooklyn is at: http://mta.info/nyct/service/RouteChanges/pdf/busbkln2-710.pdf

 

By the way, I think it should be more like 5-6 super express runs, instead of 3, similar to the X12/X42 in Staten Island.

 

1st paragraph: Thanks.

 

2nd paragraph: yeah, it should be more (runs)...

 

...but I don't think they'll add that many runs right off the bat (from nothing, right to 5... especially being in penny-pinching mode)... eventually, it probably would get to as many as 5-7 runs/day in each direction or what not....

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By the way, since we are talking about express buses, what is the "recent change" about the BM4 that is mentioned on this website: http://mta.info/nyct/service/RouteChanges/pdf/busbkln2-710.pdf ? It only has 69 riders on Saturdays (3 passengers per trip) and a direct operating cost of $40.44 per rider. What is the recent change that is causing them to keep it? Are they masking the fact that there will be community protest if the route is cut.

 

Also, for the QM10 and QM18, they say that they run to "employ guidelines". What are the guidelines for express bus coverage? For that matter, what are the guidelines for local bus coverage.

By the way, should the QM10/QM11 be combined? It looks like they parallel each other in Queens (It looks a little bit confusing since the starting point isn't near the terminal, so I can't be sure)

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By the way, since we are talking about express buses, what is the "recent change" about the BM4 that is mentioned on this website: http://mta.info/nyct/service/RouteChanges/pdf/busbkln2-710.pdf ? It only has 69 riders on Saturdays (3 passengers per trip) and a direct operating cost of $40.44 per rider. What is the recent change that is causing them to keep it? Are they masking the fact that there will be community protest if the route is cut.

 

Also, for the QM10 and QM18, they say that they run to "employ guidelines". What are the guidelines for express bus coverage? For that matter, what are the guidelines for local bus coverage.

 

By the way, should the QM10/QM11 be combined? It looks like they parallel each other in Queens (It looks a little bit confusing since the starting point isn't near the terminal, so I can't be sure)

 

well aint this somethin... gerritsen beach influence does it again *smh*...

(thanks for that scan btw... it helped me answer that first question you ask.)

 

I don't know when it happened exactly, but looking at the span of the BM4 on weekdays, the change on the BM4 is that they added a later run on weekdays... before, that last run out of 57th was at 7:45pm, not 8:45pm...

 

as for what's causing them to keep it.

Politics. and it's disgusting.

---

 

as far as guidelines, I have to see it used in a sentence to try to figure out what they mean by that.... could be one of many things....

---

 

after fanning it a couple times, I finally figured out first-hand that the QM10 totally duplicates the QM11 in queens...

(saying that another way, wherever you can catch the QM10 in queens, you can catch the QM11)...

 

However, the Qm11 in the morning starts further down queens blvd, as you can tell on the map. That's the only difference on the queens end... b/c during the PM hrs, they both terminate (I should say layover) under the LIE, along Woodhaven...

 

far as manhattan goes: the qm10 is the midtown version (which actually has 3rd av & 6th av service), the qm11 is the lower manhattan version (which is scheduled to run with the qm24)....

which of the two (qm10/11) gets more usage, from my experiences, I would say it's the 11...

should they be combined? with some restructuring of the 10/11, along w/ the 12 (which also has 3rd & 6th av service), I would say yes...

 

I have to put more thought into the actual details though....

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I don't know when it happened exactly, but looking at the span of the BM4 on weekdays, the change on the BM4 is that they added a later run on weekdays... before, that last run out of 57th was at 7:45pm, not 8:45pm...

 

That change was in April, and that ridership chart was finalized in January using Fall/Winter data. Maybe they are talking about the massive increase in Saturday service from a few round trips to hourly a few years ago? I do agree the BM4 is about politics.

 

The guidelines regarding the QM10 and QM18 have nothing to do with ridership, they have to do with the amount of passengers affected vs. cost saved, alternatives availability, etc.

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Guest Charles

 

after fanning it a couple times, I finally figured out first-hand that the QM10 totally duplicates the QM11 in queens...

(saying that another way, wherever you can catch the QM10 in queens, you can catch the QM11)...

 

However, the Qm11 in the morning starts further down queens blvd, as you can tell on the map. That's the only difference on the queens end... b/c during the PM hrs, they both terminate (I should say layover) under the LIE, along Woodhaven...

 

far as manhattan goes: the qm10 is the midtown version (which actually has 3rd av & 6th av service), the qm11 is the lower manhattan version (which is scheduled to run with the qm24)....

which of the two (qm10/11) gets more usage, from my experiences, I would say it's the 11...

should they be combined? with some restructuring of the 10/11, along w/ the 12 (which also has 3rd & 6th av service), I would say yes...

 

I have to put more thought into the actual details though....

 

I personally think the QM10 would be better combined with the QM12 than the 11. the 11 picks up a lot of passengers along Queens Blvd heading downtown. With the 10/12 combination you could have some sort of route that starts along Union Tpk, goes up Yellowstone (like the current 12) and merge it with the current 10's route by having it serve Lefrak though I'm not exactly sure how the routing would work. Either way, the current QM10 route is whack and could (should?) be changed.

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