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Fix & Fortify - 14th Street (L Train) Tunnels Closure

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Instead of shutting down one tube at a time nights and weekends why not fully close it nights and weekends? Wouldn’t that make sense because having one tube open nights and weekends will only make service slow. 

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The (L) riders who are celebrating this should ashamed of themselves. I understand the shutdown would've been hell for those who depend on the L, but it really was the most effective solution, time and money wise. This newer "plan" will drag the repairs out for YEARS, while using unproven construction methods that could end up possibly worsening the condition of the tunnel. 4 years of resources, people leaving their homes, and businesses having to close all for NOTHING.

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I've seen Cuomo propose ridiculously dumb ideas, but this right here is the most stupidest thing he could've done. 

I mean, he'll only make it worse by proposing single-tracking. Sure, it's only nights and weekends, but come on, the city and especially the subway never dies down outside the weekdays. The new additions to the tunnel will likely be weak and feeble given that it's only being worked on weekends, and repairs will be rushed like the average ESI station. 

The repairs won't be significant whatsoever given they'll only last decades, as opposed to the 15-month option, which would last up to century. What's better, a long option that will make the cables strong, or a rushed project bound to be forever bad? 

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44 minutes ago, Cabanamaner said:

The (L) riders who are celebrating this should ashamed of themselves. I understand the shutdown would've been hell for those who depend on the L, but it really was the most effective solution, time and money wise. This newer "plan" will drag the repairs out for YEARS, while using unproven construction methods that could end up possibly worsening the condition of the tunnel. 4 years of resources, people leaving their homes, and businesses having to close all for NOTHING.

Agree.  This is all about Cuomo placating certain voters (and in the eyes of some, donors) he feels he will need in the New York, New Jersey and Connecticut primaries in 2020. 

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I don't know where to start.  Years of hearings years of planning. People leaving the area Business created just to fill the (L) void. Wow! The Transport engineering community is  way to small for me to believe that no one could have seen this or came up with this 2 years ago engineering talent travels from project to project all around the globe. So im not buying this is was never used in the US so we didn't know. Tons of managing talent isn't from the US anyways. Then from my understanding we had salt water is eating away at the tunnel lining we need to get in there. To its just wiring, we'll just create some racks. Wha?  This really makes the MTA's internal team look super incompetent. I don't know if I could beleve there incapable at that level.  I kinda feel this is to save face and clam the economic worries around the shutdown. This feels halfas*ed on top of something there saying is unproven. I'm still processing this. Madness at it's best.

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1 minute ago, RailRunRob said:

I don't know where to start.  Years of hearings years of planning. People leaving the area Business created just to fill the (L) void. Wow! The Transport engineering community is  way to small for me to believe that no one could have seen this or came up with this 2 years ago engineering talent travels from project to project all around the globe. So im not buying this is was never used in the US so we didn't know. Tons of managing talent isn't from the US anyways. Then from my understanding we had salt water is eating away at the tunnel lining we need to get in there. To its just wiring, we'll just create some racks. Wha?  This really makes the MTA's internal team look super incompetent. I don't know if I could beleve there incapable at that level.  I kinda feel this is to save face and clam the economic worries around the shutdown. This feels halfas*ed on top of something there saying is unproven. I'm still processing this. Madness at it's best.

Either they were super incompetent OR more likely, Cuomo was told by donors they have to find another way to do the (L) work needed as they would not fund a 2020 Presidential campaign unless he did that. 

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5 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Same with West Village. Think of how many lawsuits were made by those crybabies to stop the street changes from happening, even though I saw the 14th Street Busway as an opportunity to provide a faster crosstown bus experience that can best any of the Manhattan SBS crosstown routes. With the street closed to through traffic to all except buses and emergency vehicles, buses can move much faster than the current crosstown SBS routes (like the ones on 34th Street). Why didn't they do this any sooner? This would've radically changed the future of transportation in the greatest city in the world.

A lot of them were fearful that traffic on other streets would jam up severely and there would be a ripple effect, especially with drivers from New Jersey who come in and refuse to (or can't) take public transportation to do so.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Cuomo was told by donors

I don't think you're to far off the mark my friend.. Somebody or Somebodies told him something. $$$$$$$$

Edited by RailRunRob

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24 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Agree.  This is all about Cuomo placating certain voters (and in the eyes of some, donors) he feels he will need in the New York, New Jersey and Connecticut primaries in 2020. 

Brooklynites' input be damned. This is what happens when we pander to irrational mobs.

My statement on Mastodon: This is also on my Twitter, but that is private.

https://mastodon.cloud/@masstransitkrow/101354843094595387

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Posted (edited)

Given all the beating around the bush that’s gone on over the past four years, I have to wonder if a competent transit authority and state government (i.e., not the MTA and New York State) could have already had a pre-fab tunnel sunk into the river and up and running by now. And I think, sadly, the answer is yes. 

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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58 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Either they were super incompetent OR more likely, Cuomo was told by donors they have to find another way to do the (L) work needed as they would not fund a 2020 Presidential campaign unless he did that. 

That is what I was thinking as well. What politician does this kind of move?

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4 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

That is what I was thinking as well. What politician does this kind of move?

One who has donors who probably are very concerned about the ripple effects of traffic on other streets with 14th Street being closed to vehicular traffic.  As noted, a big problem with closing 14th streets is clogging other streets north and south, especially since you have drivers from New Jersey who in many cases MUST drive in because they are not near public transportation and a park-and-ride is too much of a hassle for them (plus those afraid to use public transportation for concerns of riding with "riff-raff." etc).  Said donors probably were concerned they could not be able to drive and so forth or their workers having difficulties getting to work (especially if commuting from New Jersey and Connecticut).  That might have been controlling this.

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2 hours ago, Brillant93 said:

Instead of shutting down one tube at a time nights and weekends why not fully close it nights and weekends? Wouldn’t that make sense because having one tube open nights and weekends will only make service slow. 

Because in my eyes, Cuomo wouldn’t care less about NYC Subway riders, aside from stopping the shutdown for 225,000 riders 4 months before it was scheduled to start. He doesn’t care if the service gets slower for the citizens of New York as long as he gets his votes from the donors and voters he wants to please for a presidential bid by doing this.

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6 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

One who has donors who probably are very concerned about the ripple effects of traffic on other streets with 14th Street being closed to vehicular traffic.  As noted, a big problem with closing 14th streets is clogging other streets north and south, especially since you have drivers from New Jersey who in many cases MUST drive in because they are not near public transportation and a park-and-ride is too much of a hassle for them (plus those afraid to use public transportation for concerns of riding with "riff-raff." etc).  Said donors probably were concerned they could not be able to drive and so forth or their workers having difficulties getting to work (especially if commuting from New Jersey and Connecticut).  That might have been controlling this.

Why didn’t he try to shorten this closure to 12 months to please the donors? Yes the (L) would be shut down in Manhattan and 14th Street would still be closed off as well, but if that construction method can be used to fix the tunnel in 12-13 months, that alone can shorten the time the pain of the (L) train would be even shorter. Plus, those donors should try to suck it up and use public transportation to get to work, like most of my CUNY City Tech professors do, even the chair for my major department (in fact, one of th le professors lives in Upstate NY and uses public transit to commute with no social problems). That way those donors can help the politicians care more about the subway and fund it more.

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Now that they established that the (L) shutdown will not happen at all whatsoever, what would be the point of still going along with increasing (G), (J), (M), and (Z) service? Because that's what I've been hearing from some of my friends at school (who are also railfans) all day long.

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1 hour ago, Jemorie said:

Now that they established that the (L) shutdown will not happen at all whatsoever, what would be the point of still going along with increasing (G), (J), (M), and (Z) service? Because that's what I've been hearing from some of my friends at school (who are also railfans) all day long.

No, not "at all whatsoever". They'll single-track on nights and weekends, for up to 20 months. That means one train every 20 minutes. Have you been on the L any recent night or weekend? I have. It's frequently packed. There will absolutely need to be some capacity added elsewhere to make up for this serious service degradation. 

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, rbrome said:

No, not "at all whatsoever". They'll single-track on nights and weekends, for up to 20 months. That means one train every 20 minutes. Have you been on the L any recent night or weekend? I have. It's frequently packed. There will absolutely need to be some capacity added elsewhere to make up for this serious service degradation. 

No duh Sherlock. Your mimicking of me saying "not at all whatsoever" is a reference as in the full shutdown of both tubes as originally planned. Relax. I'm already aware of the other option you mention. But that's a partial closure so.

And I don't need to ride a certain line just to know its ridership when it's already obvious on social media (YouTube, Facebook, hipsters, even this site etc) lol. That part of your post is completely unrelated to my question being ask anyway so.

Edited by Jemorie

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On 1/3/2019 at 3:17 PM, JeremiahC99 said:

He just doesn't care about the health of the city anymore. This better be his last term in any level of office.

Tell that to the dumbass NYers who keep voting for the scumbag.

 

21 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

But hey, life happens and the most we can do is just suck it up and suck it in. 

True, but the stupidity of voters is mind boggling. Keep voting for the same person/party, hoping for a different result every time.

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Agree.  This is all about Cuomo placating certain voters (and in the eyes of some, donors) he feels he will need in the New York, New Jersey and Connecticut primaries in 2020. 

New Jersey and Connecticut voters don’t care about the (L) train! For that matter, New York voters who live in Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Binghamton, Plattsburgh and Poughkeepsie don’t care about the (L) train either. It will NOT play any significant role in who they vote for in the Democratic primaries. 

19 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

One who has donors who probably are very concerned about the ripple effects of traffic on other streets with 14th Street being closed to vehicular traffic.  As noted, a big problem with closing 14th streets is clogging other streets north and south, especially since you have drivers from New Jersey who in many cases MUST drive in because they are not near public transportation and a park-and-ride is too much of a hassle for them (plus those afraid to use public transportation for concerns of riding with "riff-raff." etc).  Said donors probably were concerned they could not be able to drive and so forth or their workers having difficulties getting to work (especially if commuting from New Jersey and Connecticut).  That might have been controlling this.

Well, if they’re so concerned about the heavy traffic on 14th Street, then maybe said New Jersey drivers ought to go and write their pols about extending the (L) train there. And a park-and-ride in Secaucus, yes? 😆 

20 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

I don't know where to start.  Years of hearings years of planning. People leaving the area Business created just to fill the (L) void. Wow! The Transport engineering community is  way to small for me to believe that no one could have seen this or came up with this 2 years ago engineering talent travels from project to project all around the globe. So im not buying this is was never used in the US so we didn't know. Tons of managing talent isn't from the US anyways. Then from my understanding we had salt water is eating away at the tunnel lining we need to get in there. To its just wiring, we'll just create some racks. Wha?  This really makes the MTA's internal team look super incompetent. I don't know if I could beleve there incapable at that level.  I kinda feel this is to save face and clam the economic worries around the shutdown. This feels halfas*ed on top of something there saying is unproven. I'm still processing this. Madness at it's best.

On a bit more of a serious note, I agree here! If this was such a viable option two years ago (possibly longer), then why the Hell didn’t Cuomo bring it up then? 

But also, why didn’t they start this sooner? The tunnel got flooded with salt water from Sandy well over six years ago. Everyone kept talking about how bad it was. If it was so bad, then they should have made plans for a shutdown much sooner than 2019. Even with all the planning and contracts, it still could have been done much sooner. Can you imagine just how incompetent the State/MTA would be looked at if it took anywhere close to that long to restore the (1) to South Ferry after 9/11?

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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17 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

On a bit more of a serious note, I agree here! If this was such a viable option two years ago (possibly longer), then why the Hell didn’t Cuomo bring it up then? 

But also, why didn’t they start this sooner? The tunnel got flooded with salt water from Sandy well over six years ago. Everyone kept talking about how bad it was. If it was so bad, then they should have made plans for a shutdown much sooner than 2019. Even with all the planning and contracts, it still could have been done much sooner. Can you imagine just how incompetent the State/MTA would be looked at if it took that long to restore the (1) to South Ferry after 9/11?

To answer your first question, he didn't bring it up any longer because he doesn't care about NYC residents. If he did care, then he would've been at that first tunnel tour in March 2016 and bring up that solution there instead of waiting now and confusing people in Brooklyn and Manhattan.

To answer your second question, they waited this longer due to the need to find out the actual damage, come up with a strategy to fix the tunnel, plan for robust alternatives for (L) line passengers, and fix up nearby subway lines to be in great condition to carry displaced riders. However, if they inspected every tunnel in June 2013 (and planned the Canarsie work immediately after that June inspection) instead of staggering the inspections over several years, this should've been the order the tunnels would be repaired:

  1. Montague (R) 
  2. Greenpoint (G) 
  3. Canarsie (L) 
  4. Steinway (7)
  5. 53rd Street (E)(M)
  6. Cranberry Street (A)(C)
  7. Clark Street (2)(3)
  8. Joralemon Street (4)(5)
  9. Rutgers Street (F)

That way, the most damaged tunnels would be fixed first instead of waiting. But nope, MTA does what is "best" for us.

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1 hour ago, U-BahnNYC said:

Tell that to the dumbass NYers who keep voting for the scumbag. 

 

True, but the stupidity of voters is mind boggling. Keep voting for the same person/party, hoping for a different result every time.

Hopefully they realize their mistakes during the primaries and NOT vote for Cuomo. FYI, if I get to vote at the primaries, I'll vote for Elizabeth Warren.

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On 1/3/2019 at 11:27 PM, JeremiahC99 said:

Why didn’t he try to shorten this closure to 12 months to please the donors? Yes the (L) would be shut down in Manhattan and 14th Street would still be closed off as well, but if that construction method can be used to fix the tunnel in 12-13 months, that alone can shorten the time the pain of the (L) train would be even shorter. Plus, those donors should try to suck it up and use public transportation to get to work, like most of my CUNY City Tech professors do, even the chair for my major department (in fact, one of th le professors lives in Upstate NY and uses public transit to commute with no social problems). That way those donors can help the politicians care more about the subway and fund it more.

Some of those donors probably would never want to have to deal with the "unwashed masses."  These types would likely fear their safety among such, especially if they sense the "unwashed masses" realize such are rich.  

 

22 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

New Jersey and Connecticut voters don’t care about the (L) train! For that matter, New York voters who live in Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Binghamton, Plattsburgh and Poughkeepsie don’t care about the (L) train either. It will NOT play any significant role in who they vote for in the Democratic primaries. 

True, but those who see their commutes become a lot longer would be upset and Cuomo thinks he needs those votes, particularly in New Jersey.  Rest of NYS may not care, but NYC votes count towards NYS. 

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1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

Some of those donors probably would never want to have to deal with the "unwashed masses."  These types would likely fear their safety among such, especially if they sense the "unwashed masses" realize such are rich.  

Are we saying that middle class workers and citizens are "unwashed masses" who cause trouble for rich people, and the donors who fear them are why our politicians here in NY do not care about public transportation? Geez, this state's politics are so messed up big time.

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This is what happens when we have politicians who rely on private money for their offices. Things are done not in the interest of the people but in the interest of the highest bidder.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, kosciusko said:

This is what happens when we have politicians who rely on private money for their offices. Things are done not in the interest of the people but in the interest of the highest bidder.

And if you think that's bad, check out the praise coming from L train shutdown hater Arthur Schwartz, who filed a lawsuit about the shutdown. Now he wants to see bike lanes away, busway go away, and cars to return. Looks like he is taking us back to 1950.

Edited by JeremiahC99

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