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Fix & Fortify - 14th Street (L Train) Tunnels Closure


Lance

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Really? We're calling 75 foot cars fat now? Really? :huh:

I think “round” is the more appropriate term since that is really what is causing the illusion of fatness. The truth is though, the (B) trains are currently underperforming with the equipment.

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I would just wait and see when it comes to the R32's being on the (B).

 

 

Imho the (G) should be 8 car R160's (the R160's and R32's from the (C), should go to the (G) thus keeping the remaining R32's on the (J) / (Z) but this is pure speculation)

 

The (G) would probably be full length and its rumored that the majority of the R32's would be on the (G) once the shutdown happens.

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Is there a legitimate reason for sending it to 96 Street over 71 Av knowing QB needs the extra service?

A lot of it is CBTC work on QB, which is the reason I had suggested this originally.  I suspect if this becomes popular on 2nd Avenue (where it will basically double the weekend service on the SAS in what arguably is the most densely populated area of the entire country), there will be pressure to have at least some (M) service run there at all times (including late-nights), especially from pols who serve the UES, which was the main reason for my proposing splitting the (M) into (M) and (T) (with the (M) as it is now to 71-Continental and the (T) 24/7 to 96th and 2nd as a supplemental (5 TPH) line on weekdays and the main line late nights (3-4 TPH) and weekends (6-9 TPH)). 

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A lot of it is CBTC work on QB, which is the reason I had suggested this originally.  I suspect if this becomes popular on 2nd Avenue (where it will basically double the weekend service on the SAS in what arguably is the most densely populated area of the entire country), there will be pressure to have at least some (M) service run there at all times (including late-nights), especially from pols who serve the UES, which was the main reason for my proposing splitting the (M) into (M) and (T) (with the (M) as it is now to 71-Continental and the (T) 24/7 to 96th and 2nd as a supplemental (5 TPH) line on weekdays and the main line late nights (3-4 TPH) and weekends (6-9 TPH)).

 

Broken record... I'll let you go back and find our responses to this.

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The cars from the (B) will go to the (G), the R32's from the (C) will go to Concourse (for the (B) ).

 

The (B) Train is based out of Coney Island Yard not Concourse. Those (B) Trains sets at Concourse are just stored there to mainly be used for Rush Hours and Yankees Specials. 

 

 

On another note I thought they were going to rehab Bedford Avenue during the closure but I guess that plan got canceled.

Edited by Daniel The Cool
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There's some sort of work done almost every weekend either along 6th Avenue or Queens Boulevard. The QB line work often means the (E)(F) & (R) end up sharing one track. With the (E) running 7-10 tph, the (F) running 6 tph, and the (R) running 6 tph, there's almost no room for the (M) (another 6 tph) to pass, given how trains are delayed because they have to slow down in certain areas. 

 

I mean 6th Avenue work could still potentially prevent it from getting to 96-2Av. It can't access Broadway coming from the Willy B...

 

There will still be plenty of cbtc work on QB that will make it impossible to fit the M there on weekends and nights as it won't be ready until the mid to late 2020s. Someone else said the M should serve QB 7 days a week during the shutdown and the R should be rerouted via Astoria or 2nd Avenie, but that's not feasible for obvious reasons.

 

Seriously? I kind of assumed it'd be done this decade because it seems like they've been working on this forever.. what exactly is the hold up? I mean the (M) is more reliable but yeah we all know the whole (R) not having a yard issue won't fly.

 

A lot of it is CBTC work on QB, which is the reason I had suggested this originally.  I suspect if this becomes popular on 2nd Avenue (where it will basically double the weekend service on the SAS in what arguably is the most densely populated area of the entire country), there will be pressure to have at least some (M) service run there at all times (including late-nights), especially from pols who serve the UES, which was the main reason for my proposing splitting the (M) into (M) and (T) (with the (M) as it is now to 71-Continental and the (T) 24/7 to 96th and 2nd as a supplemental (5 TPH) line on weekdays and the main line late nights (3-4 TPH) and weekends (6-9 TPH)). 

 

The problem I'm seeing with splitting it is:

a) are there even enough trainsets available to do this?

b) If you give the UES permanent (M) runs now, there's no way they'll be willing to give them up down the road knowing the full (T) won't be a thing for quite some time. When CBTC work is finished eventually, how are you going to explain to Queens they can't get extra local line they desperately need late nights/weekends?

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I mean 6th Avenue work could still potentially prevent it from getting to 96-2Av. It can't access Broadway coming from the Willy B...

 

 

Seriously? I kind of assumed it'd be done this decade because it seems like they've been working on this forever.. what exactly is the hold up? I mean the (M) is more reliable but yeah we all know the whole (R) not having a yard issue won't fly.

 

 

The problem I'm seeing with splitting it is:

a) are there even enough trainsets available to do this?

b) If you give the UES permanent (M) runs now, there's no way they'll be willing to give them up down the road knowing the full (T) won't be a thing for quite some time. When CBTC work is finished eventually, how are you going to explain to Queens they can't get extra local line they desperately need late nights/weekends?

Extended (G) train?

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I mean 6th Avenue work could still potentially prevent it from getting to 96-2Av. It can't access Broadway coming from the Willy B...

You're completely right with regards to 6th Avenue work. However, I believe that since work on 6th Avenue isn't as frequent and as big as construction on the QBL, the (M) is able to go up 6th Avenue on a more regular basis (than access Queens Boulevard). It could be a different reason though.

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R32's on the bridge should be interesting

R32s ran over the Manhattan Bridge for decades on the (B), (D), (N) and/or (Q) lines. Though it would be the first time in quite a long time that they run there.

Extended (G) train?

They had that for eight years. Well, at least they were supposed to. Transit kept getting cut the (G) back to Court Square nearly every weekend during that time, so much so that people thought it had been cut back completely. That became official in 2010. Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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It was always mid 2020's as far as I know.

 

I know the (7) / (L) are isolated so CBTC took less time but when did they start this process exactly? As is, it seems like QB is falling apart to get better. I just hope it's worth it because the concept of another 5-7 years with late night/weekend outages + random signal/track malfunctions basically killing the whole line sounds miserable.

 

I would have the (G) run to 179th during this time.

 

They could do that (I doubt they will seeing as how hell bent they were about cutting it back to Court Sq when it was still supposed to go to 71 Av) but it still doesn't help Queens-Manhattan riders.

 

You're completely right with regards to 6th Avenue work. However, I believe that since work on 6th Avenue isn't as frequent and as big as construction on the QBL, the (M) is able to go up 6th Avenue on a more regular basis (than access Queens Boulevard). It could be a different reason though.

 

True, I just wonder what the plan will be in those instances... Chambers or 168? While I absolutely see the need to have the (M) serve Midtown and 96 St has the extra capacity, I feel like it's going to be a political/community fight once 14 St reopens.

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They could do that (I doubt they will seeing as how hell bent they were about cutting it back to Court Sq when it was still supposed to go to 71 Av) but it still doesn't help Queens-Manhattan riders.

I would use it to transfer to the (7) if going back to Manhattan. And because the Flushing-8 Avenue market does exist, the (7)-(G)-(N) or (7)-(G)-(D) is also an option. During the evenings, I would rather take the first train that comes at Jackson Heights–Roosevelt Avenue than wait for an express (F).

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I would use it to transfer to the (7) if going back to Manhattan. And because the Flushing-8 Avenue market does exist, the (7)- (G)- (N) or (7)- (G)- (D) is also an option. During the evenings, I would rather take the first train that comes at Jackson Heights–Roosevelt Avenue than wait for an express (F).

 

You can use the (G) to the (7) at Court Sq today. Any person doing Flushing-8 Av today is either taking the direct Chinatown van or is using a car. Even with the (G) it would be way too slow.

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I would use it to transfer to the (7) if going back to Manhattan. And because the Flushing-8 Avenue market does exist, the (7)- (G)- (N) or (7)- (G)- (D) is also an option. During the evenings, I would rather take the first train that comes at Jackson Heights–Roosevelt Avenue than wait for an express (F).

 

 

Those two three-legged routes are only available late nights. Otherwise it is,  (7)- (G)- (R)- (N) or  (7)- (G)- (R)- (D).

Edited by Spypenguin
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R32s ran over the Manhattan Bridge for decades on the (B), (D), (N) and/or (Q) lines. Though it would be the first time in quite a long time that they run there.They had that for eight years. Well, at least they were supposed to. Transit kept getting cut the (G) back to Court Square nearly every weekend during that time, so much so that people thought it had been cut back completely. That became official in 2010.

Yeah I remember those times, the MTA didn't even need to put poster up at stations because the riders know that the (G) never runs. I know for one weekend in 2009 it did run, I went to ride it, that was the last time I saw a (G) on Queens Blvd. I know for a fact (G) never ran on QB during weekends, not sure about weekday late nights though.
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Yeah I remember those times, the MTA didn't even need to put poster up at stations because the riders know that the (G) never runs. I know for one weekend in 2009 it did run, I went to ride it, that was the last time I saw a (G) on Queens Blvd. I know for a fact (G) never ran on QB during weekends, not sure about weekday late nights though.

It ran for a few weeks in 2009 when work wasn't being done on Queens Blvd. The last it ran in service on Queens Blvd before it actually stopped was April 2010 and was officially cut that June.

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Those two three-legged routes are only available late nights. Otherwise it is,  (7)- (G)- (R)- (N) or  (7)- (G)- (R)- (D).

That’s exactly the context in which such a setup would be useful.

 

You can use the (G) to the (7) at Court Sq today. Any person doing Flushing-8 Av today is either taking the direct Chinatown van or is using a car. Even with the (G) it would be way too slow.

I’m too cheap for a van when I’ve already paid for my monthly MetroCard. Plus, you have to wait for the van to fill up before it moves; the Chinese like economy.

 

The unattractiveness with the transfer at Court Square is that only have 2 options, both of which are on separate platforms. If I wait at Jackson Heights–Roosevelt Avenue, I would have the choice of (E), (F), and (G). Assuming an evenly-distributed 20-minute headway for each, my mathematically-calculated average wait time for any train would be 3 minutes and 20 seconds. From there, the choices available also provide me with sub-20-minute-headway choices:

  • (E) to West 4 Street–Washington Square for the (D) or (F) to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue (adds another average 5 minute wait)
  • (F) directly to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue (no additional transfer time penalty)
  • (G) to 4 Avenue–9 Street for the (D) or (N) to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue (adds another average 5 minute wait)

In the above scenario, the average time spend waiting for a train after getting off the (7) is 3 minutes and 20 seconds or 8 minutes and 20 seconds.

 

Since the (7) is slower west of Queensboro Plaza, and the transfer passageways in Manhattan are time-consuming to navigate, it’s best to transfer at 74 Street–Broadway. 5 Avenue and Times Square–42 Street are not ideal stations to transfer.

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That’s exactly the context in which such a setup would be useful.

 

I’m too cheap for a van when I’ve already paid for my monthly MetroCard. Plus, you have to wait for the van to fill up before it moves; the Chinese like economy.

 

The unattractiveness with the transfer at Court Square is that only have 2 options, both of which are on separate platforms. If I wait at Jackson Heights–Roosevelt Avenue, I would have the choice of (E), (F), and (G). Assuming an evenly-distributed 20-minute headway for each, my mathematically-calculated average wait time for any train would be 3 minutes and 20 seconds. From there, the choices available also provide me with sub-20-minute-headway choices:

  • (E) to West 4 Street–Washington Square for the (D) or (F) to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue (adds another average 5 minute wait)
  • (F) directly to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue (no additional transfer time penalty)
  • (G) to 4 Avenue–9 Street for the (D) or (N) to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue (adds another average 5 minute wait)

In the above scenario, the average time spend waiting for a train after getting off the (7) is 3 minutes and 20 seconds or 8 minutes and 20 seconds.

 

Since the (7) is slower west of Queensboro Plaza, and the transfer passageways in Manhattan are time-consuming to navigate, it’s best to transfer at 74 Street–Broadway. 5 Avenue and Times Square–42 Street are not ideal stations to transfer.

We’re getting off topic, so I moved this to the proposals thread.

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