Fix & Fortify - 14th Street (L Train) Tunnels Closure

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 7/24/2018 at 8:23 PM, Lawrence St said:

Honestly, there should be some tracks added at Atlantic Avenue on the and have some rush hour  trains end and start there.

Why do that when you can run those rush hour  trains to Rockaway Parkway? It will have available capacity during the shutdown because  service will be  reduced. Like @RR503 said, maybe long-term, it would make sense to add tracks at Atlantic Avenue, but that should be for extra  trains, not .

[Wallyhorse]

20 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Broadway Junction can't handle that many trains to turn around, which is why I said Atlantic Av or Rockaway Park would be better as a terminal.

And as said, I would be wanting to re-build the Atlantic Avenue station to at least four tracks, and even possibly to six with the Snediker Avenue platform available for storage and also can be used as a short-turn terminal when needed.

Then you can have the short-turn at Atlantic Avenue while extra s go to Rockaway Parkway.  

[R68OnBroadway]

48 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

And as said, I would be wanting to re-build the Atlantic Avenue station to at least four tracks, and even possibly to six with the Snediker Avenue platform available for storage and also can be used as a short-turn terminal when needed.

Then you can have the short-turn at Atlantic Avenue while extra s go to Rockaway Parkway.  

The  operates just fine as it is and should not be truncated just to use some tracks that don't need to be used. The southern Canarsie stops do not warrant service via QBL/53rd/6th/Jamaica, and you already have the  at Broadway Junction which connect to the  for that. Interlining the services is also awful as the  needs to get to 30 tph (which can be accomplished with a substation), and also for the reasons aforementioned. Even if you extend some  trips to Atlantic, Broadway Junction is very close and can already turn trains without problems.

[Lawrence St]

1 hour ago, R68OnBroadway said:

The  operates just fine as it is and should not be truncated just to use some tracks that don't need to be used. The southern Canarsie stops do not warrant service via QBL/53rd/6th/Jamaica, and you already have the  at Broadway Junction which connect to the  for that. Interlining the services is also awful as the  needs to get to 30 tph (which can be accomplished with a substation), and also for the reasons aforementioned. Even if you extend some  trips to Atlantic, Broadway Junction is very close and can already turn trains without problems.

You clearly weren't on the  during rush hours when it went to Broadway Junction. Delays, merging hell, the whole package.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

1 hour ago, R68OnBroadway said:

The  operates just fine as it is and should not be truncated just to use some tracks that don't need to be used. The southern Canarsie stops do not warrant service via QBL/53rd/6th/Jamaica, and you already have the  at Broadway Junction which connect to the  for that. Interlining the services is also awful as the  needs to get to 30 tph (which can be accomplished with a substation), and also for the reasons aforementioned. Even if you extend some  trips to Atlantic, Broadway Junction is very close and can already turn trains without problems.

There won’t be 30  tph during the shutdown. Not even close. So you could conceivably have some  trips to Canarsie, because the capacity will be available for them. It’s probably not necessary to run any  service to Canarsie, unless it can be shown that the flat Broadway-Myrtle junction will be incapable of handling 5-6 extra  tph. 

Post-shutdown will be a different story. Then it will be better if the  has the Canarsie line tracks all to itself.

50 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

You clearly weren't on the  during rush hours when it went to Broadway Junction. Delays, merging hell, the whole package.

Even if they extend some  trips to Canarsie, they’ll still have to merge with both the  and the . No matter what you do, you’ll have to put up with merging. And trains running on the track connection between the  and  have to run extremely slow. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by T to Dyre Avenue

[RR503]

50 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

You clearly weren't on the  during rush hours when it went to Broadway Junction. Delays, merging hell, the whole package.

That was because Bway Jct was being made to turn 8tph. During the shutdown, the most it'll have to deal with is 2 tph. I daresay there's a difference there... 

I also completely fail to understand this larger fetishization of a longer term  to Atlantic/Canarsie. The  line is a closed loop with CBTC; provided good terminals, it could run up to 40tph. Why do we have to add merges to that beauty when all we gain by doing so is the avoidance of one or two staircases at Broadway Jct? I think especially given the fact that the  actually provides a faster route to Midtown from Broadway Jct than this  ever could, the extension of any Jamaica Line service down the  is an absolute waste -- not only of capacity and operational simplicity, but also of money and cars. 

What I think really drives this home for me (both for the shutdown and the future) is the fact that any  runs sent down Canarsie are by definition Jamaica Line capacity stolen. Whereas the  can pick up TPH from the Jamaica line heading south from Bway Jct, the Jamaica Line east of the junction cannot receive Manhattan-bound tph from the . Given that lower Canarsie's ridership is, well, minimal, and that the Jamaica corridor is one of the worst-served areas in the city, I think that stealing from that corridor to serve those stops -- which, mind you, will get more than adequate service after the shutdown -- reeks of misplaced priorities and a complete ignorance of capacital and developmental realities. 

[R68OnBroadway]

32 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

There won’t be 30  tph during the shutdown. Not even close. So you could conceivably have some  trips to Canarsie, because the capacity will be available for them. It’s probably not necessary to run any  service to Canarsie, unless it can be shown that the flat Broadway-Myrtle junction will be incapable of handling 5-6 extra  tph. 

Post-shutdown will be a different story. Then it will be better if the  has the Canarsie line tracks all to itself.

Even if they extend some  trips to Canarsie, they’ll still have to merge with both the  and the . No matter what you do, you’ll have to put up with merging. And trains running on the track connection between the  and  have to run extremely slow. 

For the 30 tph I was referring to post-shutdown service, provided that the MTA added tail tracks all the way to 9th Av and built a new substation along the line. (The  would be later extended to 72nd-Broadway).

[Lawrence St]

1 hour ago, RR503 said:

That was because Bway Jct was being made to turn 8tph. During the shutdown, the most it'll have to deal with is 2 tph. I daresay there's a difference there... 

I also completely fail to understand this larger fetishization of a longer term  to Atlantic/Canarsie. The  line is a closed loop with CBTC; provided good terminals, it could run up to 40tph. Why do we have to add merges to that beauty when all we gain by doing so is the avoidance of one or two staircases at Broadway Jct? I think especially given the fact that the  actually provides a faster route to Midtown from Broadway Jct than this  ever could, the extension of any Jamaica Line service down the  is an absolute waste -- not only of capacity and operational simplicity, but also of money and cars. 

What I think really drives this home for me (both for the shutdown and the future) is the fact that any  runs sent down Canarsie are by definition Jamaica Line capacity stolen. Whereas the  can pick up TPH from the Jamaica line heading south from Bway Jct, the Jamaica Line east of the junction cannot receive Manhattan-bound tph from the . Given that lower Canarsie's ridership is, well, minimal, and that the Jamaica corridor is one of the worst-served areas in the city, I think that stealing from that corridor to serve those stops -- which, mind you, will get more than adequate service after the shutdown -- reeks of misplaced priorities and a complete ignorance of capacital and developmental realities. 

But wouldn't it be better to take off some of that stress at Broadway Junction by giving one seat rides to Manhattan between Atlantic and Rockaway Parkway?

The two main chokepoints that will receive the most surge in riders will be Myrtle-Wycoff and Broadway Junction. I've seen how fast Broadway Junction fills up with people from the (L).

Edited July 27, 2018 by Lawrence St

[Caelestor]

33 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

But wouldn't it be better to take off some of that stress at Broadway Junction by giving one seat rides to Manhattan between Atlantic and Rockaway Parkway?

The two main chokepoints that will receive the most surge in riders will be Myrtle-Wycoff and Broadway Junction. I've seen how fast Broadway Junction fills up with people from the (L).

 

@RR503 just stated that Lower Canarsie doesn't have that much ridership. During the shutdown, most of the existing ridership should be redirected to  or  stations, so the Broadway Junction transfers shouldn't spike dramatically.

Myrtle-Wycoff might spike, but the plan is for most of the Bushwick  riders to walk to or take a bus to the  stations instead, so transfer volumes at that stop aren't likely to change dramatically. 

On 7/25/2018 at 3:37 PM, S78 via Hylan said:

I don’t see a need for that. It’d be better to just boost service on the .

Unfortunately, most riders want Midtown service, and the  doesn't go there, hence the . That said, service will be naturally boosted once the skip stop service west of Broadway Junction is cancelled.

[RR503]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

But wouldn't it be better to take off some of that stress at Broadway Junction by giving one seat rides to Manhattan between Atlantic and Rockaway Parkway?

The two main chokepoints that will receive the most surge in riders will be Myrtle-Wycoff and Broadway Junction. I've seen how fast Broadway Junction fills up with people from the (L).

You’re forgetting about Metropolitan/Lorimer.

While I'm sure we’ll see folks backriding from Halsey/Wilson/Aberdeen, transfer volumes at Broadway Junction will really pale in comparison to those at Wyckoff and at Lorimer — stops which bracket the ’s main catchment zone. As @Caelestor points out, though, transfer riders are actually less important to the   story than those who will take buses, and those who will board at other stations — the latter group making up the bulk of  ridership. 

Going back to the proposal at hand, though, I really don’t see how 2tph  to Rock Parkway will help matters. Our subway is a “show up and go” system — no one will schedule their lives around an ever so slightly more convenient train that runs every half hour. If you argue that, given this, we should increase  service towards Bway Jct, then I ask what will happen to all those transfer riders at Myrtle Wyckoff? Should we give them less frequent service so the small fraction of  riders who board south of Broadway Jct can have a one seat ride? 

1 hour ago, Caelestor said:

Unfortunately, most riders want Midtown service, and the  doesn't go there, hence the . That said, service will be naturally boosted once the skip stop service west of Broadway Junction is cancelled.

I actually think  service is gonna be the part of the shutdown that will blow up the worst. When people at Jamaica Line stops realize that their local precinct’s holding cell on the night of Halloween is a more pleasant experience than the , I expect we’ll see a surge of ridership on the  that goes far beyond projections (one big issue I take with NYCT’s modeling of the shutdown is that it really only considers ‘first day’ ridership patterns — ie people choosing the most temporally/geographically logical route, which will almost certainly not be the case once they confront conditions on their preferred alternative, but I digress...). The , while a superb vehicle to whatever your preferred transfer is, has infrastructure singularly unsuited to really any volume of ridership beyond that of today. Canal St alone can exemplify this perfectly — the relative narrowness of that stop’s platforms combined with the “everyone must go via Bridge platform” situation makes the complex a serious hazard to the public. To remediate this, I really wish they had at least looked at reopening the old J1 track platforms at Canal and Bowery — yes, they’re graffiti-ed messes, but I’d rather that than overcrowding. You'd have had to do some mezzanine editing and stair reconstruction (I hear the old layout was sub-optimal), but both for Canarsie and for the future, I don’t think that that’d be an unworthwile investment...

[LGA Link N Train]

14 hours ago, RR503 said:

To remediate this, I really wish they had at least looked at reopening the old J1 track platforms at Canal and Bowery — yes, they’re graffiti-ed messes, but I’d rather that than overcrowding. You'd have had to do some mezzanine editing and stair reconstruction (I hear the old layout was sub-optimal), but both for Canarsie and for the future, I don’t think that that’d be an unworthwile investment...

Bowery looks like it's gonna just be a simple rebuild though I don't see any long term projects happening for that station despite having one proposed. 

Canal is another story and a station that I'd consider a long term project on. Now while the Narrowness of the station is bothersome  (having to have experienced it before), it'll be a tough challenge to do some circulation improvements to that station. 

[Around the Horn]

33 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Canal is another story and a station that I'd consider a long term project on. Now while the Narrowness of the station is bothersome  (having to have experienced it before), it'll be a tough challenge to do some circulation improvements to that station. 

The entire complex is a disaster...

They need to completely redo the complex starting with widening the Bridge line platforms and building a full length mezzanine from the  on Broadway to the  on Lafayette St (ala Broadway-Lafayette on the ), so that transferring passengers aren't walking along the platform (unless they need the )

[Via Garibaldi 8]

18 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

The entire complex is a disaster...

They need to completely redo the complex starting with widening the Bridge line platforms and building a full length mezzanine from the  on Broadway to the  on Lafayette St (ala Broadway-Lafayette on the ), so that transferring passengers aren't walking along the platform (unless they need the )

I was a teenager the last time that place was rehabbed (sometime in the 90s) and it was a mess then too. Cold as hell for some reason, dark and drab.  I'm amazed and the amount of water problems that persist despite the renovation.

[BreeddekalbL]

On 7/6/2018 at 3:27 PM, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Right there, the Myrtle Viaduct project is the culprit along with the curve near the Williamsburg Bridge and the incident in 1995. The reasons sit in plain sight so might I say no more

Explain please?

[LGA Link N Train]

17 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Explain please?

Capacity and timers

[Wallyhorse]

On 7/26/2018 at 10:11 PM, RR503 said:

You’re forgetting about Metropolitan/Lorimer.

While I'm sure we’ll see folks backriding from Halsey/Wilson/Aberdeen, transfer volumes at Broadway Junction will really pale in comparison to those at Wyckoff and at Lorimer — stops which bracket the ’s main catchment zone. As @Caelestor points out, though, transfer riders are actually less important to the   story than those who will take buses, and those who will board at other stations — the latter group making up the bulk of  ridership. 

Going back to the proposal at hand, though, I really don’t see how 2tph  to Rock Parkway will help matters. Our subway is a “show up and go” system — no one will schedule their lives around an ever so slightly more convenient train that runs every half hour. If you argue that, given this, we should increase  service towards Bway Jct, then I ask what will happen to all those transfer riders at Myrtle Wyckoff? Should we give them less frequent service so the small fraction of  riders who board south of Broadway Jct can have a one seat ride? 

I actually think  service is gonna be the part of the shutdown that will blow up the worst. When people at Jamaica Line stops realize that their local precinct’s holding cell on the night of Halloween is a more pleasant experience than the , I expect we’ll see a surge of ridership on the  that goes far beyond projections (one big issue I take with NYCT’s modeling of the shutdown is that it really only considers ‘first day’ ridership patterns — ie people choosing the most temporally/geographically logical route, which will almost certainly not be the case once they confront conditions on their preferred alternative, but I digress...). The , while a superb vehicle to whatever your preferred transfer is, has infrastructure singularly unsuited to really any volume of ridership beyond that of today. Canal St alone can exemplify this perfectly — the relative narrowness of that stop’s platforms combined with the “everyone must go via Bridge platform” situation makes the complex a serious hazard to the public. To remediate this, I really wish they had at least looked at reopening the old J1 track platforms at Canal and Bowery — yes, they’re graffiti-ed messes, but I’d rather that than overcrowding. You'd have had to do some mezzanine editing and stair reconstruction (I hear the old layout was sub-optimal), but both for Canarsie and for the future, I don’t think that that’d be an unworthwile investment...

And this is another reason why I would be looking to add an OOS transfer between the at Fulton and the Atlantic-Barclays complex.  That might not be used immediately, but some I suspect will see it as an alternative to the mess that will likely be Court Square. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Since we have already have a  tunnel shutdown thread, I figured it would be better to have that info here instead of in the R179 thread, especially since it’s very unlikely we’ll be seeing R179s on the  since they are not planning to assign any to Jamaica Yard (the ’s home base).

Quote

2 hours ago, Vtrain said:

I just reviewed the Supplemental Environmental Assessment for the L train shutdown loop & it does mention that the R trains will be decreased from 10 to 8 TPH, for Queens only, however, the R trains to & from BRooklyn won't be touched, it will remain the same with 10TPH.

So I wonder on where some R trains from Brooklyn will be terminating in Manhattan or Queens since the additional M trains will take the place of some R trains along Queens Blvd.

Do you have a link to this?

41 minutes ago, m7zanr160s said:

My guess is: 96th Street - 2nd Ave.

I’d prefer they don’t run them there. I feel that even though it’s only a couple of trains per hour, those  trains to/from 96th switching from local to express (and vice versa) could still gum up the tracks, especially during rush hours. 

 

Edited August 2, 2018 by T to Dyre Avenue

[kosciusko]

1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I’d prefer they don’t run them there. I feel that even though it’s only a couple of trains per hour, those  trains to/from 96th switching from local to express (and vice versa) could still gum up the tracks, especially during rush hours. 

 

They would likely be switching at 57th and not 34th so they're not going to gum up the upper broadway express tracks. It will also be good to get those 2 tph off of 60th street which is very congested as is.

Second ave. has the capacity to spare.

[Caelestor]

1 hour ago, kosciusko said:

They would likely be switching at 57th and not 34th so they're not going to gum up the upper broadway express tracks. It will also be good to get those 2 tph off of 60th street which is very congested as is.

Second ave. has the capacity to spare.

Instead of sending  trains to 96 St, send them to Astoria and reroute more  trains to 96 St.

[MysteriousBtrain]

2 minutes ago, Caelestor said:

Instead of sending  trains to 96 St, send them to Astoria and reroute more  trains to 96 St.

Sounds good, but not sure if this plan could be put on board with planners.

[agar io]

6 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Do you have a link to this?

http://web.mta.info/mta/news/notices/pdf/Canarsie_Env_Assessment_ FINAL.pdf, the relevant info is on page 13.

Quote

Increase AM peak-hour M train service serving the Queens Boulevard line (from 9 tph to 12 tph) with a corresponding reduction in R train service (from 10 tph to 8 tph). The maximum capacity of the Queens Boulevard local tracks is 20 tph due to limited terminal capacity at 71st Avenue. Increasing the M line by 3 tph, requires that the R line be reduced to 8 tph. Increased M line service from Queens into Manhattan will be needed to help relieve crowding at Court Square. With this change, peak direction R service would not be reduced in Brooklyn, and the R line would continue to operate within MTA NYCT passenger loading guidelines.Increase AM peak-hour M train service serving the Queens Boulevard line (from 9 tph to 12 tph) with a corresponding reduction in R train service (from 10 tph to 8 tph). The maximum capacity of the Queens Boulevard local tracks is 20 tph due to limited terminal capacity at 71st Avenue. Increasing the M line by 3 tph, requires that the R line be reduced to 8 tph. Increased M line service from Queens into Manhattan will be needed to help relieve crowding at Court Square. With this change, peak direction R service would not be reduced in Brooklyn, and the R line would continue to operate within MTA NYCT passenger loading guidelines.

Edited August 3, 2018 by agar io
Add direct quote

[RR503]

My big question about that is where those other 2tph of  service are going. The same doc quite clearly stated 14tph over the bridge, which is, well, not equal to 12. My guess (and hope): D5 at Queens Plaza, but that’s by no means something I’m in any way certain of. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

55 minutes ago, agar io said:

http://web.mta.info/mta/news/notices/pdf/Canarsie_Env_Assessment_ FINAL.pdf, the relevant info is on page 13.

Thank you. Good to have that info. 

39 minutes ago, RR503 said:

My big question about that is where those other 2tph of  service are going. The same doc quite clearly stated 14tph over the bridge, which is, well, not equal to 12. My guess (and hope): D5 at Queens Plaza, but that’s by no means something I’m in any way certain of. 

So that’s two  and two  trains whose northern terminals aren’t being specified. This should be interesting. I mean, for the  trains, Queens Plaza D5 would make sense, but way back in this thread and in other discussions, we kept seeing that Transit doesn’t want to turn trains on that pocket track for various reasons. 

Edited August 3, 2018 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Eric B]

They'll probably go to 96th.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Then things on the Broadway and 6th Ave lines are going to get very interesting in early 2019...

Edited August 3, 2018 by T to Dyre Avenue