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Fix & Fortify - 14th Street (L Train) Tunnels Closure


Lance

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5 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

The problem with extending the short turn (G) trains to Church Av is because of the (F) . Only 24 (F)(G) trains can operate per hour between Bergen St and Church Av, the main issue being the slow merge of the (F). If you add more (G) trains you have to make more (F) trains express, which will not work for the Culver Local riders between Church Av and Bergen St, who need direct (F) service.

And I make it clear to the Culver Local riders that during the (L) shutdown, it's imperative the (MTA) needs to de-interline the (F) and (G) on that end as much as possible, even if that means all (F) service other than late nights has to be express and all (G) service is local in an attempt to better distribute those affected by the (L) shutdown and lessen the load on Court Square (and this would have included doing all necessary work at Bergen Street to get the lower level in order to be put back in revenue service PLUS have an OOS transfer between the two sides at Bergen).  Park Slope riders would have to understand there is a much bigger issue with the (L) and they would have to feel some pain in losing their one-seat ride between the (G) and (F) at local stops (again, except late nights) as the (G) would get priority as the local during this time.  

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6 hours ago, biGC323232 said:

That transfer your talking about wally aint no simple transfer...Who you think in the winter time when its cold and icy and the summer in 100 degrees would  use that....I know i wouldnt.....Back in the 80's im definitely not useing that transfer...Might get mugged doing it at that time....:D

My point was, back in the day people made such adjustments as a rule.  Sure, the transfer between Fulton and Atlantic-Barclays is not the most convenient, but if it takes some passengers away from Court Square, then it is worth doing. 

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6 hours ago, biGC323232 said:

That transfer your talking about wally aint no simple transfer...Who you think in the winter time when its cold and icy and the summer in 100 degrees would  use that....I know i wouldnt.....Back in the 80's im definitely not useing that transfer...Might get mugged doing it at that time....:D

It's literally two blocks... I do it all the time with my 30 day

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Just now, Lawrence St said:

Why not use the connections between Broadway Junction (J) and Atlantic (L) to layup some of the rush hour (M) 's?

No place to store the tracks at Atlantic Avenue any longer.

That is why I would have in preparation for the (L) shutdown had rebuilt at least two if not all four of the old tracks that were previously taken out at Atlantic Avenue, including possibly the two that were the Snediker Avenue portion (enough of the old structure was retained that would allow for a rebuild), citing the need mainly for storage but also to allow for potentially shortening the main (L) route by running such between Atlantic Avenue and 8th Avenue, also allowing potentially (after the (L) shutdown) for a revival of the old (JJ) route in some form.

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9 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

No place to store the tracks at Atlantic Avenue any longer.

That is why I would have in preparation for the (L) shutdown had rebuilt at least two if not all four of the old tracks that were previously taken out at Atlantic Avenue, including possibly the two that were the Snediker Avenue portion (enough of the old structure was retained that would allow for a rebuild), citing the need mainly for storage but also to allow for potentially shortening the main (L) route by running such between Atlantic Avenue and 8th Avenue, also allowing potentially (after the (L) shutdown) for a revival of the old (JJ) route in some form.

I can agree with this. However, I think that Broadway Junction itself needs a rebuild  (mainly the junctions that are easy of it because on terms of Elevated structure, it is a mess). Since not much happens in that area (besides transferring) I'd expect that such a project would be easy but would have to be done in phases. 

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32 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

And I make it clear to the Culver Local riders that during the (L) shutdown, it's imperative the (MTA) needs to de-interline the (F) and (G) on that end as much as possible, even if that means all (F) service other than late nights has to be express and all (G) service is local in an attempt to better distribute those affected by the (L) shutdown and lessen the load on Court Square (and this would have included doing all necessary work at Bergen Street to get the lower level in order to be put back in revenue service PLUS have an OOS transfer between the two sides at Bergen).  Park Slope riders would have to understand there is a much bigger issue with the (L) and they would have to feel some pain in losing their one-seat ride between the (G) and (F) at local stops (again, except late nights) as the (G) would get priority as the local during this time.  

You hear that screaming there? That's the many (F) riders in Carroll Gardens, Gowanus and Park Slope screaming bloody murder for taking away their direct Manhattan - Brooklyn service. You cannot rob people of their much-used services, even if it is to provide another service. The name of the game is to provide the best possible service throughout, not to give Canarsie all of the service while shafting everyone else.

2 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

No place to store the tracks at Atlantic Avenue any longer.

That is why I would have in preparation for the (L) shutdown had rebuilt at least two if not all four of the old tracks that were previously taken out at Atlantic Avenue, including possibly the two that were the Snediker Avenue portion (enough of the old structure was retained that would allow for a rebuild), citing the need mainly for storage but also to allow for potentially shortening the main (L) route by running such between Atlantic Avenue and 8th Avenue, also allowing potentially (after the (L) shutdown) for a revival of the old (JJ) route in some form.

I believe I mentioned this a few times now. Major construction projects like this have to serve a purpose beyond a one-use instance. Before the old Snediker alignment was torn down in 2001, it stood practically abandoned for a quarter of a century after the 6th Avenue K was eliminated back in '76. Even before then, the Broadway - Canarsie connection was only used during rush periods for the #14 / JJ Broadway-Brooklyn short line. The last time that connection was used heavily was before the old Fulton St elevated was demolished back in '56. There are much more useful projects that could use our very limited resources than to resurrect a service that really hasn't served a purpose in over 50 years.

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48 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

My point was, back in the day people made such adjustments as a rule.  Sure, the transfer between Fulton and Atlantic-Barclays is not the most convenient, but if it takes some passengers away from Court Square, then it is worth doing. 

I mean i get what you saying....It just a little back track that got me

 

35 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

It's literally two blocks... I do it all the time with my 30 day

Ive done it several times...Not for transfering purpose...But when i met a friend down there coming from Bed Sty....

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15 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

No place to store the tracks at Atlantic Avenue any longer.

That is why I would have in preparation for the (L) shutdown had rebuilt at least two if not all four of the old tracks that were previously taken out at Atlantic Avenue, including possibly the two that were the Snediker Avenue portion (enough of the old structure was retained that would allow for a rebuild), citing the need mainly for storage but also to allow for potentially shortening the main (L) route by running such between Atlantic Avenue and 8th Avenue, also allowing potentially (after the (L) shutdown) for a revival of the old (JJ) route in some form.

For the love of god, Wally, why would you shorten the (L)!? It's already among the shorter lines in the system... I can see the need for terminal capability at Atlantic, what wit ENY building out, but there's no need for pattern shifts beyond extension of the Wyckoff turns. Moreover, the thing you're replacing the (L) with -- this (JJ) -- would at best be able to run 8tph, and that's only if you reduce the (J)/(Z) and (M) to eight apiece.. In short, why add yet another branch to the Williamsburg Bridge routes when you have 20 tph of (better) Manhattan service pointed right at you?

2 minutes ago, Lance said:

The last time that connection was used heavily was before the old Fulton St elevated was demolished back in '56. There are much more useful projects that could use our very limited resources than to resurrect a service that really hasn't served a purpose in over 50 years.

Not to digress too much, but I actually see this as one of the bigger mistakes made in the era... In the time frame between Fulton west's demolition and the Grant connection, some Canarsie trains through ran to Lefferts on the old el. That should have been preserved, as if the (A) had connected to the Rockaways directly, we would have had two Canarsie trunk branches, and two Fulton express branches. Now it's one and three. 

6 minutes ago, Lance said:

You hear that screaming there? That's the many (F) riders in Carroll Gardens, Gowanus and Park Slope screaming bloody murder for taking away their direct Manhattan - Brooklyn service. You cannot rob people of their much-used services, even if it is to provide another service. The name of the game is to provide the best possible service throughout, not to give Canarsie all of the service while shafting everyone else.

^this. I live on Culver. I want the (F), not some unnecessarily deinterlined (G) trying to masquerade as an instrument of greater good. 

FWIW, with adjustment of the timers in the Bergen area so they reflect posted speeds, it *should* be possible to run closer to 28tph through the interlocking. Bergen's merges are supposedly D15, so if we are to believe they're gonna squeeze 29 (E) and (M) trains through similarly-sped switches at Court Square, then the area strikes me (in this admittedly unscientific analysis) as fixable. 

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1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

No place to store the tracks at Atlantic Avenue any longer.

That is why I would have in preparation for the (L) shutdown had rebuilt at least two if not all four of the old tracks that were previously taken out at Atlantic Avenue, including possibly the two that were the Snediker Avenue portion (enough of the old structure was retained that would allow for a rebuild), citing the need mainly for storage but also to allow for potentially shortening the main (L) route by running such between Atlantic Avenue and 8th Avenue, also allowing potentially (after the (L) shutdown) for a revival of the old (JJ) route in some form.

No no I meant the flyover connections.

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2 hours ago, Lance said:

I believe I mentioned this a few times now. Major construction projects like this have to serve a purpose beyond a one-use instance. Before the old Snediker alignment was torn down in 2001, it stood practically abandoned for a quarter of a century after the 6th Avenue K was eliminated back in '76. Even before then, the Broadway - Canarsie connection was only used during rush periods for the #14 / JJ Broadway-Brooklyn short line. The last time that connection was used heavily was before the old Fulton St elevated was demolished back in '56. There are much more useful projects that could use our very limited resources than to resurrect a service that really hasn't served a purpose in over 50 years.

This would be more than a one-use situation on Atlantic Avenue. Having two additional tracks at Atlantic Avenue, even if just used for storage would help immensely and would also more easily allow emergency re-routes if the Broadway-Brooklyn line east/north of Broadway Junction went FUBAR (either terminating at Atlantic Avenue or continuing to Rockaway Parkway.

As for the shortening of the (L) to accommodate a (JJ) revival (after the (L) resumes running to Manhattan):  The idea here would be to make the extra (M) trains being added for the (L) shutdown a potential permanent addition and having such run from Rockaway Parkway-96th Street/2nd Avenue as the (T), via the (L) to Atlantic, then the Broadway-Brooklyn line and finally the Manny B, probably at a max of 5-6 TPH.  This also allows the (L) to serve the much more heavily used part of the line and gives those who want to go to Carnasie a one-seat ride from Broadway-Brooklyn and 6th Avenue (as well as give those along the SAS who likely once they see the (M) running on weekends to 96th a direct 6th avenue connection as well).  

2 hours ago, Lance said:

You hear that screaming there? That's the many (F) riders in Carroll Gardens, Gowanus and Park Slope screaming bloody murder for taking away their direct Manhattan - Brooklyn service. You cannot rob people of their much-used services, even if it is to provide another service. The name of the game is to provide the best possible service throughout, not to give Canarsie all of the service while shafting everyone else.

 

2 hours ago, RR503 said:

^this. I live on Culver. I want the (F), not some unnecessarily deinterlined (G) trying to masquerade as an instrument of greater good. 

FWIW, with adjustment of the timers in the Bergen area so they reflect posted speeds, it *should* be possible to run closer to 28tph through the interlocking. Bergen's merges are supposedly D15, so if we are to believe they're gonna squeeze 29 (E) and (M) trains through similarly-sped switches at Court Square, then the area strikes me (in this admittedly unscientific analysis) as fixable. 

I get that, but this is a greater good situation.  Court Square to me is going to be a disaster and the idea of having the (G) run its full route to Church even if it forces (F) riders at local stations in the affected area to take the (G) to the (F) (one big reason why I'd be doing a lot of work on Bergen Street that really should be done anyway that would include doing all necessary work to reopen the lower level of Bergen Street, even if that simply reopened as a barebones station otherwise).  Park Slope, Gowanus, etc. need to realize this is NOT a typical situation as being able to have passengers affected by the (L) shutdown come south and either use an OOS transfer between Fulton and Atlantic-Barclays AND a transfer between the (G) and the (A) / (C) at Hoyt-Schermerhon on ALL (G) trains trumps the wants of riders at local stations on the (F) in this case (and those wanting the (F) for midtown at worse can so the (A) / (C) transfer noted and then either get the (F) at Jay-Metrotech or get any 6th Avenue train at West 4th or even simply walk from 8th Avenue).

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1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

This would be more than a one-use situation on Atlantic Avenue. Having two additional tracks at Atlantic Avenue, even if just used for storage would help immensely and would also more easily allow emergency re-routes if the Broadway-Brooklyn line east/north of Broadway Junction went FUBAR (either terminating at Atlantic Avenue or continuing to Rockaway Parkway.

Hath Broadway Junction's middle track disappeared? Storage, FWIW, is for yards. Let's not build bridges only to park trains...

1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

As for the shortening of the (L) to accommodate a (JJ) revival (after the (L) resumes running to Manhattan):  The idea here would be to make the extra (M) trains being added for the (L) shutdown a potential permanent addition and having such run from Rockaway Parkway-96th Street/2nd Avenue as the (T), via the (L) to Atlantic, then the Broadway-Brooklyn line and finally the Manny B, probably at a max of 5-6 TPH.  This also allows the (L) to serve the much more heavily used part of the line and gives those who want to go to Carnasie a one-seat ride from Broadway-Brooklyn and 6th Avenue (as well as give those along the SAS who likely once they see the (M) running on weekends to 96th a direct 6th avenue connection as well).  

Yes, Wally, MTA is a synonym for Uber. What we need right now is loads more interlining. 

I've been twelve rounds with you on this one, so let me just say that the (L) is 2-3 mins faster from Broadway Jct to 14/6, that any new throughput available on the Jamaica line should go to, well, the Jamaica line, that the (L) has 6tph hiding behind traction power, and that because of some issue with interlocking control lines and reset times, the crossovers at Lex-63 cannot be used in high-density revenue service. 

1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

I get that, but this is a greater good situation.  Court Square to me is going to be a disaster and the idea of having the (G) run its full route to Church even if it forces (F) riders at local stations in the affected area to take the (G) to the (F) (one big reason why I'd be doing a lot of work on Bergen Street that really should be done anyway that would include doing all necessary work to reopen the lower level of Bergen Street, even if that simply reopened as a barebones station otherwise).  Park Slope, Gowanus, etc. need to realize this is NOT a typical situation as being able to have passengers affected by the (L) shutdown come south and either use an OOS transfer between Fulton and Atlantic-Barclays AND a transfer between the (G) and the (A) / (C) at Hoyt-Schermerhon on ALL (G) trains trumps the wants of riders at local stations on the (F) in this case (and those wanting the (F) for midtown at worse can so the (A) / (C) transfer noted and then either get the (F) at Jay-Metrotech or get any 6th Avenue train at West 4th or even simply walk from 8th Avenue).

Ante up here, mate. What evidence do you have to support this notion that Court Square is going to be a disaster? What weed-laced analysis of capacity and of time lost vs gained are you citing here that says that three new TPH from Bedford to Church will overwhelm the negative effects on the commutes of 50,000. Where is there evidence of more than 50 people choosing to use OOS transfers -- even in trying circumstances? 

You speak with all this authority, and you never change your tune. That'd be fine if you have evidence. If you don't, it's frankly insulting. You're engaging in a debate while treating it like you have some god-given right to veracity, which defeats the entire purpose of debate. You don't even bother responding with fake evidence -- I've yet to see anything more than a transition sentence at the beginning of your posts, after which you usually proceed to respond with the same arguments and 'facts' you presented before (sometimes, to your credit, you make words all caps). So again, ante up. 

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13 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

The problem with extending the short turn (G) trains to Church Av is because of the (F) . Only 24 (F)(G) trains can operate per hour between Bergen St and Church Av, the main issue being the slow merge of the (F). If you add more (G) trains you have to make more (F) trains express, which will not work for the Culver Local riders between Church Av and Bergen St, who need direct (F) service.

Why don't they just send some of the (F)'s express (Which they had already been doing at times, unofficially). This would free up slots for the

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On ‎9‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 2:41 AM, Trainmaster5 said:

I'm not sure of the ridership numbers of today's Jamaica line from Queens to Broadway Junction so help me out here.  I've seen people denigrate the skip-stop service and I wonder if they're aware of the original reasoning it was instituted.  The 15 ran A/B service from 168th to Eastern Parkway and reversed it in the evening.  Think today's (J)(Z) trains.  The reasoning being that all stop service would be extremely delayed at the heavier ridership stations such as Sutphin-LIRR or Woodhaven Blvd. At Eastern Parkway those trains would then run express to Manhattan because local trains would start their runs there  , Atlantic Avenue,  or Rockaway Parkway station and be joined by the Myrtle-Chambers locals. It seems to me that the (J)(Z) ridership is getting shafted if the proposed plans I've seen are finalized. Perhaps I'm missing something here?  Maybe start some trains at Eastern Parkway and and let them run local to Marcy ? Carry on. 

Interesting. So the A/B service on yesterday’s 15 line ran express after Broadway Junction, while a local train started at Broadway Junction (or joined the 15 there). This is in sharp contrast to today’s (J)(Z), which continue skip-stop service between Broadway Junction and Myrtle-Broadway with no other Jamaica Ave service provided.

Personally, I kind of like the idea of bringing back that past service plan - i.e., have the (J) and (Z) run skip-stop between Sutphin and Broadway Junction, then express between Broadway Junction and Marcy, with another service originating at Broadway Jct to make the local stops, then be joined by the (M) at Myrtle. But with a 24-tph limit over the Willy B, that severely limits how many trains can run on the three services (I count (J) and (Z) as one service, which would mean very infrequent service at the “skip” stations). 

Post-shutdown, it may just be better to run an all-stop (J) between JC and Broadway Jct, then peak-direction express between Broadway Jct and Marcy, while the (Z) starts at Broadway Jct and runs local. Or vice versa as @Caelestor suggested upthread. Run (J), (M) and (Z) on 8 tph apiece.

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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On 9/9/2018 at 2:16 PM, Wallyhorse said:

When I grew up in the '80s, that IS how we sometimes did it (without the OOS transfers of course).  

Court Square to me is a recipe for a disaster.  Some people are going to need to go there no matter what.

And there are enough people going to Lower Manhattan who can use either an OOS transfer between Fulton and Atlantic-Barclays OR the transfer between the (G) and (A) / (C) at Hoyt-Schermerhorn that those transfers should be encouraged as much as possible to cut down on people using Court Square.

It's too bad there isn't a suitable place to turn the (G) other than Court Square for this without messing up other lines as otherwise, it would be so the (G) can go to Queens Plaza and allow riders to transfer to the (R) there as well as (via an OOS transfer) the (N) and (Q) and reduce the reliance on Court Square.  

 

It doesn’t matter what you did in the ‘80s! This is not New York City in the 1980s. And even then, I’m pretty sure most people took the route most convenient and direct as possible during a service diversion - of which there were many in the ‘80s. I was around then. I remember all those Manhattan Bridge service diversions, not to mention the (F) and (7) express suspensions.

Now, back to Court Square versus Atlantic-Barclays (I bolded that paragraph for your convenience). Did you even bother to read what I said before you quoted it? Where did I say ANYTHING about going to Lower Manhattan? What I said was that no displaced riders from the (L) are going to travel all the way to downtown Brooklyn on the (G) to make an OOS transfer at Atlantic-Barclays, if their destination is WELL NORTH of 14th Street. You grew up in Manhattan. You know what’s NORTH of 14th Street. It sure as shit ain’t Lower Manhattan. Now, there probably are (L) riders who currently transfer at 14th and ride southbound to Lower Manhattan. I’m not discounting them at all. But - and this is very important, so please read it carefully - why would these same riders headed for Lower Manhattan ride the (G) up to Court Square? And here is the answer...

THEY WOULDN’T!

Lower Manhattan-bound displaced (L) riders will most likely head south on the (G) and transfer to the (A)(C) at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, like many (G) riders already do because that would be a more convenient for place for them to make a transfer. While Court Square will arguably be busier than it currently is, it definitely won’t be for the reasons you keep on posting. And an OOS transfer from the (G) to Atlantic-Barclays won’t do one goddamn bit of good to relieve it. Because the displaced (L) riders headed to Court Square ARE NOT going to Lower Manhattan!

On 9/10/2018 at 2:38 PM, Wallyhorse said:

And I make it clear to the Culver Local riders that during the (L) shutdown, it's imperative the (MTA) needs to de-interline the (F) and (G) on that end as much as possible, even if that means all (F) service other than late nights has to be express and all (G) service is local in an attempt to better distribute those affected by the (L) shutdown and lessen the load on Court Square (and this would have included doing all necessary work at Bergen Street to get the lower level in order to be put back in revenue service PLUS have an OOS transfer between the two sides at Bergen).  Park Slope riders would have to understand there is a much bigger issue with the (L) and they would have to feel some pain in losing their one-seat ride between the (G) and (F) at local stops (again, except late nights) as the (G) would get priority as the local during this time.  

Oh yeeeess...because Park Slope riders will happily be willing to give up their (F) local service and say, “We feel your pain” to their fellow Brooklyn brethren up in Williamsburg. 🙄 

On 9/10/2018 at 2:40 PM, Wallyhorse said:

My point was, back in the day people made such adjustments as a rule.  Sure, the transfer between Fulton and Atlantic - Barclays is not the most convenient, but if it takes some passengers awayfrom Court Square, then it is worth doing. 

No they didn’t. Not unless there was absolutely no other option.

And as I previously explained why in the first quoted message, Atlantic-Barclays will not take any passengers away from Court Square, so it is not worth doing.

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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On 9/10/2018 at 6:06 PM, Wallyhorse said:

As for the shortening of the (L) to accommodate a (JJ) revival (after the (L) resumes running to Manhattan):  The idea here would be to make the extra (M) trains being added for the (L) shutdown a potential permanent addition and having such run from Rockaway Parkway-96th Street/2nd Avenue as the (T), via the (L) to Atlantic, then the Broadway-Brooklyn line and finally the Manny B, probably at a max of 5-6 TPH.  This also allows the (L) to serve the much more heavily used part of the line and gives those who want to go to Carnasie a one-seat ride from Broadway-Brooklyn and 6th Avenue (as well as give those along the SAS who likely once they see the (M) running on weekends to 96th a direct 6th avenue connection as well).  

Again with the reverse-branched one seat rides? When will you get it that the NYC Subway is not an “AirTrain on steroids”? The (M) trains being added for the shutdown aren’t even going to Rockaway Parkway! They’re going to Metro, so why would they need to be sent to Rockaway Parkway after the shutdown? Makes no sense.

And how in the world is this revived (JJ) train even supposed to get to the Manhattan Bridge? Via a rebuilt Myrtle Avenue el? 🙄 

On 9/10/2018 at 6:06 PM, Wallyhorse said:

I get that, but this is a greater good situation.  Court Square to me is going to be a disaster and the idea of having the (G) run its full route to Church even if it forces (F) riders at local stations in the affected area to take the (G) to the (F) (one big reason why I'd be doing a lot of work on Bergen Street that really should be done anyway that would include doing all necessary work to reopen the lower level of Bergen Street, even if that simply reopened as a barebones station otherwise).  Park Slope, Gowanus, etc. need to realize this is NOT a typical situation as being able to have passengers affected by the (L) shutdown come south and either use an OOS transfer between Fulton and Atlantic-Barclays AND a transfer between the (G) and the (A) / (C) at Hoyt-Schermerhon on ALL (G) trains trumps the wants of riders at local stations on the (F) in this case (and those wanting the (F) for midtown at worse can so the (A) / (C) transfer noted and then either get the (F) at Jay-Metrotech or get any 6th Avenue train at West 4th or even simply walk from 8th Avenue).

You don’t get it! Because (G) riders need to transfer to other trains for Lower Manhattan does NOT trump the needs (not “wants”) of local (F) riders in Park Slope/Gowanus. There MAY be a need for some, (not all) (F) trains to go express, because there may not be enough track capacity on just the local tracks to accommodate both the current full (F) service plus the increased (G) service. But not to the extent that we need to send all (F) trains express, spend money to rehab and reopen Lower Bergen or put in yet another one of your useless OOS transfers!

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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17 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Interesting. So the A/B service on yesterday’s 15 line ran express after Broadway Junction, while a local train started at Broadway Junction (or joined the 15 there). This is in sharp contrast to today’s (J)(Z), which continue skip-stop service between Broadway Junction and Myrtle-Broadway with no other Jamaica Ave service provided.

Personally, I kind of like the idea of bringing back that past service plan - i.e., have the (J) and (Z) run skip-stop between Sutphin and Broadway Junction, then express between Broadway Junction and Marcy, with another service originating at Broadway Jct to make the local stops, then be joined by the (M) at Myrtle. But with a 24-tph limit over the Willy B, that severely limits how many trains can run on the three services (I count (J) and (Z) as one service, which would mean very infrequent service at the “skip” stations). 

Post-shutdown, it may just be better to run an all-stop (J) between JC and Broadway Jct, then peak-direction express between Broadway Jct and Marcy, while the (Z) starts at Broadway Jct and runs local. Or vice versa as @Caelestor suggested upthread. Run (J), (M) and (Z) on 8 tph apiece.

Makes sense to me....That's something the (MTA) should look into for the Canarsie shutdown...

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Well maybe not during the shutdown. The (M) is going to need a big boost in service for all the displaced (L) riders who will flood it at Myrtle-Wyckoff, Central and Knickerbocker. So they won’t be able to provide sufficient service for a rush hour (J) local and (Z) express while the (L) tunnels are shut down. For the shutdown, it may be better to just have an all-stop (J). But maybe after the shutdown, we can consider switching to an local (J)/express (Z) pattern starting at Broadway Junction.

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38 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Well maybe not during the shutdown. The (M) is going to need a big boost in service for all the displaced (L) riders who will flood it at Myrtle-Wyckoff, Central and Knickerbocker. So they won’t be able to provide sufficient service for a rush hour (J) local and (Z) express while the (L) tunnels are shut down. For the shutdown, it may be better to just have an all-stop (J). But maybe after the shutdown, we can consider switching to an local (J)/express (Z) pattern starting at Broadway Junction.

I'm honestly surprised that there hasn't been a public announcement of full skip-stop suspension during the shutdown. The agency's own guidelines dictate a minimum diurnal frequency of 6tph on weekdays -- a 10tph (J)(Z) would violate that with 5tph at single-line stops. Unless they are (again) treating the Jamaica line as an *exceptional* piece of trackage, then they need to start playing by their own rules. 

After, yes, there needs to be a full review of the (J) and (Z). Not just of express from Broadway Jct, but also of capital investments. I'm talking 3rd track Alabama-Crescent, re-opening Bowery and Canal's J1 platforms to relieve crowding, a new platform at Essex in the old trolley terminal, curve easement at Marcy, etc, etc, etc. 

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A new bus route, the L5, will run rush hours only between Utica Avenue (3)(4) and the B42 terminal in Canarsie Pier, along Remsen Av, Flatlands Av and Rockaway Pkwy, to provide additional service to Canarsie during the shutdown.

http://www.mta.info/press-release/nyc-transit/mta-bring-additional-temporary-bus-route-fully-ada-compliant-subway

Quote

 

MTA to Bring Additional Temporary Bus Route, Fully ADA Compliant Subway Station to Canarsie

Efforts Expected to Help Ease Challenges Associated with L Tunnel Closure Next Year

MTA New York City Transit announced plans today to introduce a new, temporary bus service to Brooklyn’s Canarsie neighborhood as well as permanent improvements to the Canarsie-Rockaway Parkway subway station. The plans, which were developed in close collaboration with NYC Department of Transportation and elected officials, are another extension of the plan for additional service options during the (L) tunnel closure.

The new L5 bus service will be the fifth planned temporary bus service announced as part of the plan for additional service options during the (L)  tunnel closure. Called the L5, it will operate as a peak hour, limited-stop bus route along parts of the existing B42 bus route as well as on the northern half of the B17 route and will bring customers to the (3)(4)Crown Heights Utica Av station. In response to feedback from customers during a recent town hall meeting with Congressman Jeffries, the L5 will help customers to get easier access to more subway lines and reduce the time it takes to get to the subway, taking into account the importance of transferring at the (A)(C)(J)(L) and (Z) lines at Broadway Junction. A ride on the L5 will cost the same as a local bus fare, but in cutting down on the total number of stops, it will provide many of the benefits of an express ride. In effect, customers will get to subway stations more quickly than they would otherwise.

“It’s imperative that we are doing everything in our power to ease the burdens customers will experience as a result of this massive work,” said New York City Transit President Andy Byford. “That means thinking of creative ways to provide the best possible experience to our customers, including those in Brooklyn who still will have (L) train service from Bedford Av Station to Canarsie-Rockaway Parkway Station. By adding another bus service to the other four we’ve already announced as part of the (L) tunnel reconstruction project as well as permanently improving a key subway station, we are providing tangible benefits to the large number of customers who made their voices heard. That includes those in the disabled community who continue their noble push, which I share, to make this system more accessible. I sincerely appreciate the efforts of Canarsie elected leaders, especially Congressman Jeffries, who made the case regarding the necessity of more service for his constituents early on and worked with us throughout the process to make it happen.”

“Providing good alternative service for (L)train riders is critical to peoples’ lives during the (L) train tunnel closure, and the new L5 limited stop bus route the MTA is running will provide fast service to other subway lines to get people where they need to go,” said NYC DOT Deputy Commissioner for Transportation Planning and Management Eric Beaton. “Along with the increased subway service, new Select Bus Service lines, HOV restrictions, added ferry service, and expanded bike infrastructure and Citi Bike, this shows MTA and the City are working together to keep New Yorkers moving when this needed project begins next year.”

The bus will operate every 20 minutes from 6:00 AM to 9:00 AM and from 3:00 PM to 7:00 PM during weekdays. It will make a limited number of existing B42 stops on Rockaway Parkway south of Flatlands Avenue in both directions, one stop on Flatlands Avenue at Remsen Avenue, then continue without stopping to the stop on Utica Avenue, nearside, of Eastern Parkway. More details on the specifics of the route are available below.

The updates to the Canarsie-Rockaway Parkway subway station will make it ADA compliant, including adding public bathrooms, accessible connections to buses in the terminal and numerous other upgrades.  

PRAISE FOR THE PLAN FROM ELECTED OFFICIALS

ASSEMBLY MEMBER JAMIE WILLIAMS: “The (L) line is a vital artery of transportation within the boroughs of Manhattan and Brooklyn. It is a key component that enables many to get to work from the 59th Assembly District, the MTA’s implementation of a new bus route will help alienate the fear and concern for many residents in getting to work. I am personally thrilled to have this new bus line come to fruition as this will provide so many with a much needed lifeline to their livelihoods

ASSEMBLY MEMBER NICK PERRY: “I applaud the MTA and New York City Transit for heeding the calls of the community and implementing the new L5 bus route.  This supplementary route will certainly help commuters endure the (L) train shutdown, and navigate their way to school and work on time each day.”

STATE SENATOR ROXANNE PERSAUD: "For many residents in the district I serve, public transportation is their main source for commuting. I'd like to remind folks that during this construction the (L) line will continue on its normal schedule within Brooklyn, from Canarsie-Rockaway Parkway to Bedford Avenue. I'm glad to see the MTA offering accessible transportation options during this transition.”

COUNCIL MEMBER ALAN MAISEL: “I’m very pleased that the Transit Authority in conjunction with local elected officials plan to bring this much needed bus service when the Canarsie (L) Line closes for repair in 2019.  The new L5 bus will work to address some of the concerns we had by helping rush hour commuters transfer to the subway lines needed at Broadway junction.  This measure is very good news for our local residents.”

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ABOUT THE NEW BUS ROUTE

Route Path – Northbound

From current B42 terminal at Rockaway Parkway, far side, Shore Parkway Service Road, straight Rockaway Parkway, left Flatlands Avenue, right Remsen Avenue, right on Utica Avenue, to last stop at the Crown Heights Utica Av (3)(4) Station.

Route Path – Southbound

From first at the Crown Heights Utica Av (3)(4) Station, continue on Utica Avenue, slight left Remsen Avenue, left Flatlands Avenue, right Rockaway Parkway, through traffic circle (passengers may be carried on circle), left Rockaway Parkway, to stand at current B42 terminal at Rockaway Parkway, far side, Shore Parkway Service Road.

Bus Stops

Will make a limited number of existing B42 stops on Rockaway Parkway south of Flatlands Avenue in both directions, one stop on Flatlands Avenue at Remsen Avenue, then continue without stopping until the stop on Utica Avenue.

Service Frequency, Span, and Days of Service

The route would operate every 20 minutes from 6:00 AM – 9:00 AM and 3:00 PM – 7:00 PM weekdays only.

 

 

Edited by Mysterious2train
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16 minutes ago, RR503 said:

After, yes, there needs to be a full review of the (J) and (Z). Not just of express from Broadway Jct, but also of capital investments. I'm talking 3rd track Alabama-Crescent, re-opening Bowery and Canal's J1 platforms to relieve crowding, a new platform at Essex in the old trolley terminal, curve easement at Marcy, etc, etc, etc. 

THIS, THIS, THIS!!!

Curve easement at Marcy would also help the (M) and if they were to ever split the (R) in the future due to reliability concerns, a new platform at Essex would make for a good terminal for the southern portion...

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9 hours ago, Mysterious2train said:

A new bus route, the L5, will run rush hours only between Utica Avenue (3)(4) and the B42 terminal in Canarsie Pier, along Remsen Av, Flatlands Av and Rockaway Pkwy, to provide additional service to Canarsie during the shutdown.

http://www.mta.info/press-release/nyc-transit/mta-bring-additional-temporary-bus-route-fully-ada-compliant-subway

 

Might as well just call it the B86.

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10 hours ago, Mysterious2train said:

A new bus route, the L5, will run rush hours only between Utica Avenue (3)(4) and the B42 terminal in Canarsie Pier, along Remsen Av, Flatlands Av and Rockaway Pkwy, to provide additional service to Canarsie during the shutdown.

http://www.mta.info/press-release/nyc-transit/mta-bring-additional-temporary-bus-route-fully-ada-compliant-subway

 

This is a god idea, but why every 20 minutes during rush hours only? Wouldn't it be more feasible to have it run every 15 minutes from 5:00 AM to 10:00 PM 7 days a week to attract additional passengers?

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14 hours ago, RR503 said:

I'm honestly surprised that there hasn't been a public announcement of full skip-stop suspension during the shutdown. The agency's own guidelines dictate a minimum diurnal frequency of 6tph on weekdays -- a 10tph (J)(Z) would violate that with 5tph at single-line stops. Unless they are (again) treating the Jamaica line as an *exceptional* piece of trackage, then they need to start playing by their own rules. 

After, yes, there needs to be a full review of the (J) and (Z). Not just of express from Broadway Jct, but also of capital investments. I'm talking 3rd track Alabama-Crescent, re-opening Bowery and Canal's J1 platforms to relieve crowding, a new platform at Essex in the old trolley terminal, curve easement at Marcy, etc, etc, etc. 

This is exactly what I have thought of. In addition, Myrtle Junction needs to be grade-separated, old entrances should be reopened, a new Union Avenue stop should be built, and express stops at 121st and Woodhaven should be added.

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