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RailRunRob

China Railway Rolling Stock Corp and MTA?

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How lovely... Any agreement with these guys should stipulate that the parts be made here in the US and not in China. Hopefully Trump have a say on that if anything does happen and slap high tariffs on such parts to make them think twice about such an arrangement.  For the current multinational manufacturers making trains here in US such as Kawasaki (Japan),  Alstom (France) and Bombardier (Canada), I would be quite concerned.  You start having this company bid on these RFPs and the ability for them to compete in price will be quite difficult if they're going to have the parts come from China, not to mention their pegged currency.  We all know that the (MTA) loves going for the lowest bidder even if the quality is suspect.

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"(Beijing) – The operator of the country's railroads has blamed an increase in problems with trains last year – some of them fatal – on quality standards falling at a major manufacturer.

The management of China Railway Corp. (CRC) heard at a meeting in December that the railroad system experienced 1,710 cases of train malfunctions last year, including 210 instances in which people on board were killed or hurt, one of the people at the meeting told Caixin.

The first figure was an increase of 42 percent from 2014, the source said, adding that the CRC's management blames the rise of problems on quality standards falling at China Railway Rolling Stock Corp. Ltd., the country's major train maker."

http://english.caixin.com/2016-03-22/100923256.html

Their quality standards aren't even good enough for the domestic Chinese market, and yet these jokers want to build trains for America? Give me a break.  The West has spent too many years relying on "made in china" garbage.

We need to incentivize our own industry, maybe try to get American Car and Foundry back into building passenger railcars.  It's not without precedent- I wonder how many of you free-trade mouthpieces actually know that when issuing the R32 contract the TA offered a premium to whoever would build the cars out of stainless steel.  Along came Budd and the rest is history...

The decline of manufacturing in this country has led to economic hardship for workers as well as the rise of lunatics like Trump here and in other Western democracies.  Not that the flip-flopper will actually do anything about it; I'm just saying that at least some marginal degree of protection in the past 35 years would have prevented the regrettable domestic situation we have on our hands today. 

Edited by R10 2952
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Well there have to be quality safeguards, not just trade safeguards.  The R44s and R46s were also 'built American' and they turned out to be horrible- caused decades of headaches for Transit and put Pullman, an industrial heavyweight, out of business.  Those two botched orders are partly the reason the TA switched over to foreign companies unfortunately... 

Edited by R10 2952
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"(Beijing) – The operator of the country's railroads has blamed an increase in problems with trains last year – some of them fatal – on quality standards falling at a major manufacturer.

 

The management of China Railway Corp. (CRC) heard at a meeting in December that the railroad system experienced 1,710 cases of train malfunctions last year, including 210 instances in which people on board were killed or hurt, one of the people at the meeting told Caixin.

 

The first figure was an increase of 42 percent from 2014, the source said, adding that the CRC's management blames the rise of problems on quality standards falling at China Railway Rolling Stock Corp. Ltd., the country's major train maker."

 

http://english.caixin.com/2016-03-22/100923256.html

 

Their quality standards aren't even good enough for the domestic Chinese market, and yet these jokers want to build trains for America? Give me a break.  The West has spent too many years relying on "made in china" garbage.

We need to incentivize our own industry, maybe try to get American Car and Foundry back into building passenger railcars.  It's not without precedent- I wonder how many of you free-trade mouthpieces actually know that when issuing the R32 contract the TA offered a premium to whoever would build the cars out of stainless steel.  Along came Budd and the rest is history...

The decline of manufacturing in this country has led to economic hardship for workers as well as the rise of lunatics like Trump here and in other Western democracies.  Not that the flip-flopper will actually do anything about it; I'm just saying that at least some marginal degree of protection in the past 35 years would have prevented the regrettable domestic situation we have on our hands today. 

Listening to the "economists" and other media folks, you'd think that America is simply too inept to build anything anymore.  All I keep hearing is we can't manufacture here anymore.  Well guess what?? I buy a TON of "Made in USA" products, so obviously we are still manufacturing here.  It's nothing more than a ruse to excuse this love affair that America has with buying poorly made cheap Made in China products.  Look at Germany and how they've turned their economy around.  They did it largely because they started putting people to work making things right in Germany.  Somehow we can't do that though... lol  I don't even have a problem with a foreign manufacturer, as long as they have safety standards that are up to code with ours and have the parts manufactured here and the assembly of the parts done here.  American taxpayer dollars should not be funding someone's economy.  From a safety standpoint, European safety standards are actually more rigorous than American standards, which is why their products tend to be more durable (especially Made in Germany products).  China just isn't there yet.  They're still like Japan years ago, where they copied and stole everything instead of being innovative.

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How lovely... Any agreement with these guys should stipulate that the parts be made here in the US and not in China. Hopefully Trump have a say on that if anything does happen and slap high tariffs on such parts to make them think twice about such an arrangement.  For the current multinational manufacturers making trains here in US such as Kawasaki (Japan),  Alstom (France) and Bombardier (Canada), I would be quite concerned.  You start having this company bid on these RFPs and the ability for them to compete in price will be quite difficult if they're going to have the parts come from China, not to mention their pegged currency.  We all know that the (MTA) loves going for the lowest bidder even if the quality is suspect.

 

They have a factory in Massachusetts. Given that New York has build in New York requirements, I don't see Chinese imports becoming a problem.

 

"(Beijing) – The operator of the country's railroads has blamed an increase in problems with trains last year – some of them fatal – on quality standards falling at a major manufacturer.

 

The management of China Railway Corp. (CRC) heard at a meeting in December that the railroad system experienced 1,710 cases of train malfunctions last year, including 210 instances in which people on board were killed or hurt, one of the people at the meeting told Caixin.

 

The first figure was an increase of 42 percent from 2014, the source said, adding that the CRC's management blames the rise of problems on quality standards falling at China Railway Rolling Stock Corp. Ltd., the country's major train maker."

 

http://english.caixin.com/2016-03-22/100923256.html

 

Their quality standards aren't even good enough for the domestic Chinese market, and yet these jokers want to build trains for America? Give me a break.  The West has spent too many years relying on "made in china" garbage.

We need to incentivize our own industry, maybe try to get American Car and Foundry back into building passenger railcars.  It's not without precedent- I wonder how many of you free-trade mouthpieces actually know that when issuing the R32 contract the TA offered a premium to whoever would build the cars out of stainless steel.  Along came Budd and the rest is history...

The decline of manufacturing in this country has led to economic hardship for workers as well as the rise of lunatics like Trump here and in other Western democracies.  Not that the flip-flopper will actually do anything about it; I'm just saying that at least some marginal degree of protection in the past 35 years would have prevented the regrettable domestic situation we have on our hands today. 

 

The primary problem has always been that the American railcar market is way too thin to sustain any company in this day and age, and has been like this since the railroad industry collapsed in the '50s and '60s. Companies can't just twiddle their thumbs and survive on air, and NYCTA doesn't order cars nearly enough by itself to give life to one company, let alone an entire national industry, and neither are the rest of the rail networks.

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Listening to the "economists" and other media folks, you'd think that America is simply too inept to build anything anymore.  All I keep hearing is we can't manufacture here anymore.  Well guess what?? I buy a TON of "Made in USA" products, so obviously we are still manufacturing here.  It's nothing more than a ruse to excuse this love affair that America has with buying poorly made cheap Made in China products.  Look at Germany and how they've turned their economy around.  They did it largely because they started putting people to work making things right in Germany.  Somehow we can't do that though... lol  I don't even have a problem with a foreign manufacturer, as long as they have safety standards that are up to code with ours and have the parts manufactured here and the assembly of the parts done here.  American taxpayer dollars should not be funding someone's economy.  From a safety standpoint, European safety standards are actually more rigorous than American standards, which is why their products tend to be more durable (especially Made in Germany products).  China just isn't there yet.  They're still like Japan years ago, where they copied and stole everything instead of being innovative.

 

No you're missing the point. Of course an American manufacturer could succeed, if there was a market for rolling stock in this country. Outside of New York, there's basically Los Angeles, Chicago, a few smaller systems and thats it...

 

Most subways here and in Canada have rolling stock built in the last 20 years. The only rolling stock contracts possibly on the horizon (they have not been bid yet) are the R68/A replacement, R62/A replacement, an eventual replacement for the 3200 series in Chicago, M4 and BIV in Philly, Amtrak's Amfleets and maybe a few small light rail orders. That's not enough for a company to rely on, even if they got all of them.

 

Without further investment in new and expanding existing rail systems in this country, an American manufacturer would resemble Orion in their laster years, just barely getting by with one or two customers barely keeping them afloat...

 

For example, get states to start investing in upgrading existing 79 mph trackage to 125 mph or even 150 and 160 mph and put out to bid a contract for high speed trains. There's your market...

Unless this hypothetical manufacturer could get some European or Asian contracts as well, then an American manufacturer could succeed. But thats less likely...

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No you're missing the point. Of course an American manufacturer could succeed, if there was a market for rolling stock in this country. Outside of New York, there's basically Los Angeles, Chicago, a few smaller systems and thats it...

 

Most subways here and in Canada have rolling stock built in the last 20 years. The only rolling stock contracts possibly on the horizon (they have not been bid yet) are the R68/A replacement, R62/A replacement, an eventual replacement for the 3200 series in Chicago, M4 and BIV in Philly, Amtrak's Amfleets and maybe a few small light rail orders. That's not enough for a company to rely on, even if they got all of them.

 

Without further investment in new and expanding existing rail systems in this country, an American manufacturer would resemble Orion in their laster years, just barely getting by with one or two customers barely keeping them afloat...

 

For example, get states to start investing in upgrading existing 79 mph trackage to 125 mph or even 150 and 160 mph and put out to bid a contract for high speed trains. There's your market...

Unless this hypothetical manufacturer could get some European or Asian contracts as well, then an American manufacturer could succeed. But thats less likely...

I wasn't talking about an American manufacturer... I was talking about American manufacturing in general... We're discussing two very different things... Your point is well taken nevertheless.  

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Well there have to be quality safeguards, not just trade safeguards.  The R44s and R46s were also 'built American' and they turned out to be horrible- caused decades of headaches for Transit and put Pullman, an industrial heavyweight, out of business.  Those two botched orders are partly the reason the TA switched over to foreign companies unfortunately... 

You're absolutely right. You want both .But, unfortunately we don't get both. Sacrifice quality to save money. 

No you're missing the point. Of course an American manufacturer could succeed, if there was a market for rolling stock in this country. Outside of New York, there's basically Los Angeles, Chicago, a few smaller systems and thats it...

 

Most subways here and in Canada have rolling stock built in the last 20 years. The only rolling stock contracts possibly on the horizon (they have not been bid yet) are the R68/A replacement, R62/A replacement, an eventual replacement for the 3200 series in Chicago, M4 and BIV in Philly, Amtrak's Amfleets and maybe a few small light rail orders. That's not enough for a company to rely on, even if they got all of them.

 

Without further investment in new and expanding existing rail systems in this country, an American manufacturer would resemble Orion in their laster years, just barely getting by with one or two customers barely keeping them afloat...

 

For example, get states to start investing in upgrading existing 79 mph trackage to 125 mph or even 150 and 160 mph and put out to bid a contract for high speed trains. There's your market...

Unless this hypothetical manufacturer could get some European or Asian contracts as well, then an American manufacturer could succeed. But thats less likely...

I don't have a problem with foreign companies taking the bid cause you do have a point but if they do take the bids they should build in America like with the Prevost order. 

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I wasn't talking about an American manufacturer... I was talking about American manufacturing in general... We're discussing two very different things... Your point is well taken nevertheless.  

 

Ah, okay...

 

As for CRRC getting the R211, the MTA is most likely going to laugh in their face and reject it on the spot.

Edited by Around the Horn

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Listening to the "economists" and other media folks, you'd think that America is simply too inept to build anything anymore.

 

Um no... economists argue that if a good can be produced outside at a lower price (the world price) than the United States could, then it is more efficient to import said good than it would be to produce it at home. Economists acknowledge that free trade increases consumer surplus at the expense of producer surplus, meaning that consumers benefit at the expense of manufacturers. However, imposing tariffs inevitably results in consumer surplus being converted into deadweight loss, which creates an inefficient economy and thus not in the social interest of the country. This is the real reason why economists support free trade, not because they don't believe in American manufacturing or that Americans are incapable of building. 

LBSNBoG.png

 

VG8, I respect you, your opinion and your right to have them, but these gross oversimplifications ("economists say we can't manufacture etc etc") of important concepts creates a situation where people make irrational, emotional decisions over logical and rational ones. Obviously, it is clear that the manufacturing part of the United States is suffering and the government has not done enough to help these people, but at the same time, we cannot dismiss the very clear benefits of free trade. The solutions to these problems are way above my pay grade (thank god) but in my very honest opinion, the anti-intellectualism that has swept over a large part of this country is extremely disconcerting.

 

Don't think I'm pointing you out specifically, because I'm not. I think this applies to a very large portion of the general populace. Any "lack of rigor" in soft sciences such as economics is the result of a lack of a controlled environment, not because of unethical or ulterior motives. Dismissing a field of study because of a preconceived paucity of credible results is nothing more than an argument reserved for those who seek to wish to confirm their personal biases or are unwilling to learn (or both). 

Edited by YankeesPwnMets
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Um no... economists argue that if a good can be produced outside at a lower price (the world price) than the United States could, then it is more efficient to import said good than it would be to produce it at home. Economists acknowledge that free trade increases consumer surplus at the expense of producer surplus, meaning that consumers benefit at the expense of manufacturers. However, imposing tariffs inevitably results in consumer surplus being converted into deadweight loss, which creates an inefficient economy and thus not in the social interest of the country. This is the real reason why economists support free trade, not because they don't believe in American manufacturing or that Americans are incapable of building. 

LBSNBoG.png

 

VG8, I respect you, your opinion and your right to have them, but these gross oversimplifications ("economists say we can't manufacture etc etc") of important concepts creates a situation where people make irrational, emotional decisions over logical and rational ones. Obviously, it is clear that the manufacturing part of the United States is suffering and the government has not done enough to help these people, but at the same time, we cannot dismiss the very clear benefits of free trade. The solutions to these problems are way above my pay grade (thank god) but in my very honest opinion, the anti-intellectualism that has swept over a large part of this country is extremely disconcerting.

 

Don't think I'm pointing you out specifically, because I'm not. I think this applies to a very large portion of the general populace. Any "lack of rigor" in soft sciences such as economics is the result of a lack of a controlled environment, not because of unethical or ulterior motives. Dismissing a field of study because of a preconceived paucity of credible results is nothing more than an argument reserved for those who seek to wish to confirm their personal biases or are unwilling to learn (or both). 

It's complicated at best. Valid points I believe people's lack of understanding how their world works is going to be an issue moving forward. Technology is on the forward march and our society and government to a major extent isn't acknowledging the shift. I'm personally working 2 two Ai projects honestly my first time working in this particular field besides big data. The leap and progress made in this area alone is mind blowing and staggering Not including biotech and CRISPR. I'm honestly having to ask myself are jobs going to be a thing in 60-70 years. Lawyers, Accountants where about 10-15 top's from AI being able to do these jobs. The demos im playing with are almost there now. Fact checking presidential debate's in realtime in the next decade. Manufacturing was the first to see major changes it's going to be starker the jobs going to China guess what there leaving China as well! There already heavily automated and that trend is going to continue at a faster pace. So yes bring the manufacturing back but don't expect many humans to be doing much of anything but overseeing .  Transportation Taxi drivers, Truck drivers, Trains with AI can be automated Uber and Otto are already on the move think about the millions misplaced how do they make a living? Where else can they contribute? These are the questions we should be asking. We might have a few setbacks to globalization and automation but like it or not it's going to happen no question. We're going have to redefine what a job and contribution really is. Seems this is the limits of 18th-century infrastructure. Wealth and Money. 

Edited by RailRunRob
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Let's see what their build quality for the MBTA order will be first.

CTA as well they got 400 plus cars there. Think about it CRRC has only been around since 2015 kinda quick.

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There definitely will be problems as automation becomes a bigger and bigger threat to jobs. Perhaps one day we may need a universal basic income or something of the sort. Like I said though, thank god that I am not going to be the one who has to figure out a solution.

 

Anyways, it's pretty cool that you're working on AI! Machine learning and neural networks was definitely not my strong point when I was a CS student back in school.

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Um no... economists argue that if a good can be produced outside at a lower price (the world price) than the United States could, then it is more efficient to import said good than it would be to produce it at home. Economists acknowledge that free trade increases consumer surplus at the expense of producer surplus, meaning that consumers benefit at the expense of manufacturers. However, imposing tariffs inevitably results in consumer surplus being converted into deadweight loss, which creates an inefficient economy and thus not in the social interest of the country. This is the real reason why economists support free trade, not because they don't believe in American manufacturing or that Americans are incapable of building. 

LBSNBoG.png

 

VG8, I respect you, your opinion and your right to have them, but these gross oversimplifications ("economists say we can't manufacture etc etc") of important concepts creates a situation where people make irrational, emotional decisions over logical and rational ones. Obviously, it is clear that the manufacturing part of the United States is suffering and the government has not done enough to help these people, but at the same time, we cannot dismiss the very clear benefits of free trade. The solutions to these problems are way above my pay grade (thank god) but in my very honest opinion, the anti-intellectualism that has swept over a large part of this country is extremely disconcerting.

 

Don't think I'm pointing you out specifically, because I'm not. I think this applies to a very large portion of the general populace. Any "lack of rigor" in soft sciences such as economics is the result of a lack of a controlled environment, not because of unethical or ulterior motives. Dismissing a field of study because of a preconceived paucity of credible results is nothing more than an argument reserved for those who seek to wish to confirm their personal biases or are unwilling to learn (or both). 

First off I'd like to say that you're correct.  Hypothetically speaking, free trade on paper looks GREAT.  The consumer gets the good for a lower price (in theory anyway), the manufacturer saves on labor costs and the cost to make product and gets to show investors that they've cut costs and increased profits (if they're a publicly traded company).  Additionally, folks in poor countries get jobs and have the opportunity to raise their standard of living.  However, these trade deals have made it extremely advantageous for the multinational companies and their investors.  The losers are the consumers and everyone else.  Lower wages, fewer jobs, and prices that aren't always cheaper.  Furthermore, the economists are also right to a degree.  The U.S. can't compete with excessive regulations which drives up the costs to manufacture here. The fact of the matter there are US companies that once produced overseas that have returned by changing their business model, altering how much they produce and when, as well as analyzing other costs to level the playing field and have a successful business model.  If you believe that some economists don't have an slanted angle, you're sadly mistaken.  If you're an investor who stands to make money off of free trade deals or free trade in general, well then of course you'll make certain claims.  Now I'm not saying that all economists are bad or wrong, but some of them make speculations and comments to suit their agenda.   Believe me I follow the market very closely and have for years and run a business, so I'm well aware of what you're saying.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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There definitely will be problems as automation becomes a bigger and bigger threat to jobs. Perhaps one day we may need a universal basic income or something of the sort. Like I said though, thank god that I am not going to be the one who has to figure out a solution.

 

Anyways, it's pretty cool that you're working on AI! Machine learning and neural networks was definitely not my strong point when I was a CS student back in school.

Yeah, I can foresee a universal income with people picking what they want to spend their time on. It's going to hard to overcome the perception of the handout and freeloading. There's a sense of pride and purpose that would need to be refocused as well. It's moving that way. We may be old men I think this could be in our lifetimes our children for sure. 

Yeah, it's next level with some of these algorithms and datasets even predictive analysis in some cases. I've done quite a bit of analytics work but I'm working more UX for this project which is just as important if you ask me.  Most issues occur between man and machine. With AI it's becoming more auto pilot haha.

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The problem (imo) with extreme protectionism that people like Donald Trump are pushing is that the effects of protectionism are much more diluted and harder to notice. The positives of protectionism are immediate (saved jobs, potentially reducing the trade deficit) but the negatives are diluted over a much longer period of time (potentially higher prices, inefficient economy, higher net cost to the economy to save aforementioned jobs), which is why Trump's message resonates so strongly with the working class. However, problems that arise with free trade, such as excessive outsourcing and trade dumping are problems that need to be solved but have no clear solutions. One can argue that the U.S has excessive regulations but also make a just-as-meritorious argument that developing countries don't have enough regulations to protect worker rights.

 

I'm not going to sit here and claim I have any solutions, because I sure as f**k don't. My message was a response to my frustration of the average American voter's lack of education. The average voter nowadays is so reactive to extremely dumbed down solutions of (very) difficult problems that we're creating a ripe environment for people to shoot themselves in the foot and vote against their self interests. I find it discouraging that proven facts are met with doubt, apprehension and trepidation while bombastic and preposterous proclamations are met with enthusiastic support and a cult like following. 

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The problem (imo) with extreme protectionism that people like Donald Trump are pushing is that the effects of protectionism are much more diluted and harder to notice. The positives of protectionism are immediate (saved jobs, potentially reducing the trade deficit) but the negatives are diluted over a much longer period of time (potentially higher prices, inefficient economy, higher net cost to the economy to save aforementioned jobs), which is why Trump's message resonates so strongly with the working class. However, problems that arise with free trade, such as excessive outsourcing and trade dumping are problems that need to be solved but have no clear solutions. One can argue that the U.S has excessive regulations but also make a just-as-meritorious argument that developing countries don't have enough regulations to protect worker rights.

 

I'm not going to sit here and claim I have any solutions, because I sure as f**k don't. My message was a response to my frustration of the average American voter's lack of education. The average voter nowadays is so reactive to extremely dumbed down solutions of (very) difficult problems that we're creating a ripe environment for people to shoot themselves in the foot and vote against their self interests. I find it discouraging that proven facts are met with doubt, apprehension and trepidation while bombastic and preposterous proclamations are met with enthusiastic support and a cult like following. 

Here's my issue with your claim about American voters being ignorant.  If you're going make such a claim then be fair and acknowledge that China is extremely protectionist as well. Over the years, their government has fought vigorously to protect Chinese companies from going into foreign hands, especially American hands, so I get tired of hearing about how America shouldn't enact protectionist measures when the Chinese purposely devalue their currency to make their goods more artificially cheaper and attractive, not just in comparison to America, but elsewhere.  When I lived in Europe, there was CONSTANT discussion among those in Western Europe and the EU about how China was dumping their goods into the European Union (flooding the market) with its goods and not playing by the rules.  That's part of why free trade isn't working because we have countries like China playing games to undercut other countries, so yes, we should retaliate and get the playing field level again.  That's what Trump has been talking about all along and he's 100% correct.  Free trade CAN work if done properly, but when you have such trade imbalances as we have now, something has to be done to stop the bleeding.  Before we said it was okay to lose jobs because they were low skilled, low paying jobs, but now we have high skilled high paying jobs going away that aren't being replaced, or rather they are... Just with low paying service jobs, which in turn is deflating wages across the board in every sector.

 

Even if you're a white collar guy on Wall Street, your wages have likely decreased.... Via smaller bonuses or smaller compensation packages.  So... You're right...  There isn't an easy answer, but at the same time, allowing the status quo to continue can't be the answer either, so I welcome any and all protectionist measures from Trump to level the playing field again.  We need less regulation, tax cuts for businesses, and more money for consumers to spend on American made products.  For years Americans have had a love affair with buying cheap imported products and they've loved it until they started to realize that it was hurting their standard of living.  I've been studying free trade going back to the 90's when Clinton was in office and signed NAFTA, so it's a very deep topic with no easy solutions, but this situation with this Chinese company trying to enter the playing field and build trains will be a very interesting one.  I'd compare it to Walmart coming in, keeping prices insanely low by pressuring its suppliers and gutting the competition. Have you noticed how few manufacturers we have now for buses and trains? 

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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First off I'd like to say that you're correct.  Hypothetically speaking, free trade on paper looks GREAT.  The consumer gets the good for a lower price (in theory anyway), the manufacturer saves on labor costs and the cost to make product and gets to show investors that they've cut costs and increased profits (if they're a publicly traded company).  Additionally, folks in poor countries get jobs and have the opportunity to raise their standard of living.  However, these trade deals have made it extremely advantageous for the multinational companies and their investors.  The losers are the consumers and everyone else.  Lower wages, fewer jobs, and prices that aren't always cheaper.  Furthermore, the economists are also right to a degree.  The U.S. can't compete with excessive regulations which drives up the costs to manufacture here. The fact of the matter there are US companies that once produced overseas that have returned by changing their business model, altering how much they produce and when, as well as analyzing other costs to level the playing field and have a successful business model.  If you believe that some economists don't have an slanted angle, you're sadly mistaken.  If you're an investor who stands to make money off of free trade deals or free trade in general, well then of course you'll make certain claims.  Now I'm not saying that all economists are bad or wrong, but some of them make speculations and comments to suit their agenda.   Believe me I follow the market very closely and have for years and run a business, so I'm well aware of what you're saying.

I don't think there anything we can do but adapt. Statistics, economics, currency and time to an extent all man made. And it's coming to end of its shelf life. Capitalism has run its course there's almost no more to extract.  

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I don't think there anything we can do but adapt. Statistics, economics, currency and time to an extent all man made. And it's coming to end of its shelf life. Capitalism has run its course there's almost no more to extract.  

There's no question that we have to adapt.  The problem is we haven't been making adjustments accordingly.  This is part of the issue with globalism. Change is happening so quickly that there hasn't been enough time to process and make modifications.  We need to make changes on many levels, not just with jobs, but education as well.  We are moving down the ladder in that area too... We may be forced to look at the Scandinavian model for education... Finland for example has an extremely high standard when it comes to education and children progressing.  

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Here's my issue with your claim about American voters being ignorant.  If you're going make such a claim then be fair and acknowledge that China is extremely protectionist as well. Over the years, their government has fought vigorously to protect Chinese companies from going into foreign hands, especially American hands, so I get tired of hearing about how America shouldn't enact protectionist measures when the Chinese purposely devalue their currency to make their goods more artificially cheaper and attractive, not just in comparison to America, but elsewhere.  When I lived in Europe, there was CONSTANT discussion among those in Western Europe and the EU about how China was dumping their goods into the European Union (flooding the market) with its goods and not playing by the rules.  That's part of why free trade isn't working because we have countries like China playing games to undercut other countries, so yes, we should retaliate and get the playing field level again.  That's what Trump has been talking about all along and he's 100% correct.  Free trade CAN work if done properly, but when you have such trade imbalances as we have now, something has to be done to stop the bleeding.  Before we said it was okay to lose jobs because they were low skilled, low paying jobs, but now we have high skilled high paying jobs going away that aren't being replaced, or rather they are... Just with low paying service jobs, which in turn is deflating wages across the board in every sector.

 

Even if you're a white collar guy on Wall Street, your wages have likely decreased.... Via smaller bonuses or smaller compensation packages.  So... You're right...  There isn't an easy answer, but at the same time, allowing the status quo to continue can't be the answer either, so I welcome any and all protectionist measures from Trump to level the playing field again.  We need less regulation, tax cuts for businesses, and more money for consumers to spend on American made products.  For years Americans have had a love affair with buying cheap imported products and they've loved it until they started to realize that it was hurting their standard of living.  I've been studying free trade going back to the 90's when Clinton was in office and signed NAFTA, so it's a very deep topic with no easy solutions, but this situation with this Chinese company trying to enter the playing field and build trains will be a very interesting one.  I'd compare it to Walmart coming in, keeping prices insanely low by pressuring its suppliers and gutting the competition. Have you noticed how few manufacturers we have now for buses and trains? 

The only way to level the playing field mate is to dismantle the whole thing. We've let it run out of control for way too long everything's so interconnected now it has a life of its own. It's quite a boondoggle dismantle system? There really isn't way to do that without directly affecting a Hundred other things connected. When people want real change and revolution you have to be prepared for what comes next. The instability, uncertainty, unfamiliarity that come with starting over. Hell to get to heaven I don't think most of the populace could handle that to used to everything having an order and being predictable. At the very least this CRRC deal would bring jobs to NY correct? They already have a deal with the CTA Pual said the MBTA so there already in the US market.

There's no question that we have to adapt.  The problem is we haven't been making adjustments accordingly.  This is part of the issue with globalism. Change is happening so quickly that there hasn't been enough time to process and make modifications.  We need to make changes on many levels, not just with jobs, but education as well.  We are moving down the ladder in that area too... We may be forced to look at the Scandinavian model for education... Finland for example has an extremely high standard when it comes to education and children progressing.  

Education and health are the keys I agree.

Edited by RailRunRob

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Your right with the change happening so quickly I was having a conversation with a friend that's faculty at my alma mater Cal their having issues keeping up with curriculum and even having issues finding talent to teach some of the newer fields like Robotics and AI not enough people with the experience being 15 years ago this was all but non-existant shy of NASA ,IBM and a few research labs. So you're almost having to guaranteed tenure creating strenuous amounts for tuition. I feel this is like  a microcosm of what's going on  globally across many fields.

Edited by RailRunRob

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Your right with the change happening so quickly I was having a conversation with a friend that's faculty at my alma mater Cal their having issues keeping up with curriculum and even having issues finding talent to teach some of the newer fields like Robotics and AI not enough people with the experience being 15 years ago this was all but non-existant shy of NASA ,IBM and a few research labs. So you're almost having to guaranteed tenure creating strenuous amounts for tuition. I feel this is like  a microcosm of what's going on  globally across many fields.

Well that's another issue... It's difficult to encourage people to go into such fields if they're going to have to worry about job prospects after they graduate, so I would say that the companies complaining about shortages need to be more aggressive in recruiting in the first place and giving incentives for young folks here in the U.S. to go into those fields.  

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