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Is Penn Station via the MNRR Hudson Line a Possibility Again?


Via Garibaldi 8

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And what exactly is the benefit for the LIRR?  If I were a passenger, I'd be incensed for what they charge to have to transfer, meaning a longer commute.

 

Those trains would be running to Penn or GCT instead of Atlantic Terminal.

 

BTW, where can I find the track layout they're proposing at Mineola? Is it in the final scoping document or something, because I can't seem to find it?

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I overheard 67th street as an option. My Assemblyman needs to get out more because he made some pretty dumb comments. For example, he asked why 67th street was being considered for the stop? The SAS was brought up, and he commented about how it was Manhattan centric and for the rich and how other places of New York City needed things like Crosstown bus service. Most of Yorkville has been middle class though of course there are pockets of wealth. I don't see it as a must for us in Riverdale because we already have the BxM2 to Penn Station, but it would likely cut down on travel time. The BxM2 has been a mess ever since construction started in the Times Square area so the bus is practically empty Southbound by 50th street. That is something the (MTA) needs to address.

 

Any stop in the West 60s would be a plus. Not only for Fordham, but Lincoln Center is a huge traffic generator.

It would depend on the locations of the Manhattan stops, and the associated ridership projections, but I do think it could potentially work...

 

It would also require widening the ROW from 2 tracks to 4; you'd have to involve Amtrak in the discussion both if you decide 2 tracks are enough and if you expand to 4 tracks. 

 

I'm kinda iffy on this proposal; it sounds good for now, but I'd just need to see some more details...

 

No, 2 tracks is enough. AMTK doesn't have that many trains there.

Of course it could work.  This has been talked about for years going back several years ago.  It's just a question of making it happen.  Because Riverdale has a plethora of transportation options I think it was just tossed around, but with congestion worsening, it would be a nice option.  Ridership trends seem to show that people who work below 50th street in my neighborhood of near Grand Central take Metro-North.  Those working above that take the express bus, with some likely taking the bus to the (4) train at Bedford Park Blvd. but I don't think there that many people doing that for the East Side.  For the West Side, most people in Riverdale work either in West Midtown around 57th street, on the Upper West Side, or at Mount Sinai, so the BxM2 won't lose those riders.  This would however open up an option for those who may have overlooked the neighborhood who work in West Midtown near Penn Station.  Having TWO trains that can get you to East or West Midtown in 30 - 35 minutes is impressive.  A perfect example... Last Friday I got the 23:20 train out GCT, and was home before 00:00, even with connecting with the shuttle bus.  About a 30 minute commute.  

 

This entire project could be a major game changer.  However, with the current track set up it would only benefit Riverdale and Westchester.  With the configuration of the tracks and MNRR having to use Amtrak's tracks, the only pickup within the New York City outside of Manhattan will be at the Riverdale - Wave Hill station.  While busing is an option during the week to that station, I have concerns as well, one being that the Riverdale station is much more inaccessible than the Spuyten Duyvil station.  On occasion I use the Riverdale station, but because of the very hilly nature driving to the station makes more sense.  The Hudson Rail Link shuttle doesn't run on weekends, so I usually take Metro-North into the city and then the express bus back to avoid the hill situation OR, I would use the Spuyten Duyvil station, which is also very hilly, but you have more people that will actually brave the stairs and hills and walk from the station.  I've done both, and the Riverdale station in either direction is brutal for walking, especially coming back from Manhattan.

 

As for ridership growth, the Hudson Line has seen tremendous growth.  When I first moved to Riverdale, the (MTA) began an aggressive marketing campaign at bus shelters, noting the convenience and quickness of Metro-North, and to some extent it kind of led me to use it more to the point to where I alternate between the express bus and the commuter train.  I think the Amtrak situation can be worked out just fine, and while MNRR does have a limited amount of fleet, there are more new cars due for the Hudson Line soon to replace the older fleet, so that should help.

 

If new trains from Riverdale to Penn were timed so as to leave Riverdale 5 minutes after northbound trains arrived there from SD, the SD folks could have a connection there to Penn.

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I wonder, could you have some Harlem line trains use that wye near Mott Haven, stop at Yankees-153th and Spuyten Duyvil then wye again onto the Amtrak line? Maybe that could solve the Riverdale issue?

 

I have absolutely no knowledge of the geography in that area whatsoever, so it might not even be possible but I thought I'd still put it out there [shrugs]

 

This was part of the original Penn access plan. It was dropped because the extra time to backtrack up the Hudson line would negate a lot of the benefits of getting to the West Side,. IOW, taking the Harlem to GCT, then the subway to Penn, would be faster.

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For some reason LIRR seems to only focus in Midtown. They chose to transform the Atlantic Branch into a shuttle, which fewer people will use and therefore trains will be cut. Hunters point AV and LIC both have spare capacity but they chose to ignore those terminals. When a service disruption happens, LIRR will usually just suspend service between Jamaica to Penn Station. They could've send trains to Atlantic Terminal, Hunterspoint or LIC, but no it all ends at Jamaica. Regarding Atlantic Term, they should have built a tunnel, and have a station in lower Manhattan at the WTC "Oculus" .

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For some reason LIRR seems to only focus in Midtown. They chose to transform the Atlantic Branch into a shuttle, which fewer people will use and therefore trains will be cut. Hunters point AV and LIC both have spare capacity but they chose to ignore those terminals. When a service disruption happens, LIRR will usually just suspend service between Jamaica to Penn Station. They could've send trains to Atlantic Terminal, Hunterspoint or LIC, but no it all ends at Jamaica. Regarding Atlantic Term, they should have built a tunnel, and have a station in lower Manhattan at the WTC "Oculus" .

I guess the MTA figured it's better to send all the trains to where 90% of weekday riders need to go.

 

2015 figures, from: http://web.mta.info/mta/news/books/docs/2015-LIRR-Ridership-Book.pdf#page=3

 

Weekday Travel at Western Terminals - West of Jamaica

Daily Arrivals

 

Penn Station - 115,480

Atlantic Terminal - 14,520

Hunterspoint & LIC -  3,130

 

Daily Departures

Penn Station - 114,700

Atlantic Terminal - 13,430

Hunterspoint & LIC -  2,590

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying Atlantic and HP/LIC shouldn't get service during a disruption. I guess the MTA's mindset is, "Why reroute 50% of trains to a place where 9% of the passengers want to go?" They figure people could just take the (E) Jamaica to Penn Station, as if it isn't already crowded...

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I guess the MTA figured it's better to send all the trains to where 90% of weekday riders need to go.

 

2015 figures, from: http://web.mta.info/mta/news/books/docs/2015-LIRR-Ridership-Book.pdf#page=3

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying Atlantic and HP/LIC shouldn't get service during a disruption. I guess the MTA's mindset is, "Why reroute 50% of trains to a place where 9% of the passengers want to go?" They figure people could just take the (E) Jamaica to Penn Station, as if it isn't already crowded...

 

Many riders also need to get to Brooklyn without having to thru Manhattan. How is the average Islanders fan from Long Island supposed to get to Barclay in time if service to Atlantic Terminal is just a shuttle?

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Islanders fans are just the tip of the iceberg; there's a lot more people in LI being inconvenienced by MTA-LIRR's stubbornness and the overbearing governor imposing his will on every project he sees fit.

Unfortunately, although I'd like to see these things change, I don't think they will anytime soon.

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So I ran a commute flow analysis on Census Onthemap from Nassau/Suffolk to 10282, 10280, 10012, 10002, 10003, 10004, 10005, 10006, 10007, 10009, 10013, 10014, and 10038. 

 
Here is what I got:
 
9ee6e1bd19a44501863fd75e0383c736.png
 
 
So yeah, there is a market. 
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Many riders also need to get to Brooklyn without having to thru Manhattan. How is the average Islanders fan from Long Island supposed to get to Barclay in time if service to Atlantic Terminal is just a shuttle?

I have no idea how the MTA thinks or why they're doing this. I suppose that during these special events, trains can run from LI to Brooklyn and back. But again, the MTA planners sometimes don't make the best service patterns when it comes to this stuff.

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I think (and hope) all hell breaks loose. Politicians from all across the island should make a hullabaloo. 

 

The LIRR generally does not believe in operating east of Jamaica. If they had their way, that's where they'd end. Penn Station they have to deal with, but ESA gave them a golden opportunity to retrench on the Atlantic Branch. That's the 'reasoning' behind it. 

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This was part of the original Penn access plan. It was dropped because the extra time to backtrack up the Hudson line would negate a lot of the benefits of getting to the West Side,. IOW, taking the Harlem to GCT, then the subway to Penn, would be faster.

Wasn't there an interchange on the Harlem Line near Mott Haven/Melrose to connect Hell Gate line?

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I think (and hope) all hell breaks loose. Politicians from all across the island should make a hullabaloo. 

 

The LIRR generally does not believe in operating east of Jamaica. If they had their way, that's where they'd end. Penn Station they have to deal with, but ESA gave them a golden opportunity to retrench on the Atlantic Branch. That's the 'reasoning' behind it. 

 

But many people nowadays depend on the LIRR operating east of Jamaica, even more so since there's a lack alternatives that links the city to the island. The n4, n6, n20G/H, n22 and n24 can only do so much to transport people between the NYC Subways and Nassau.

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But many people nowadays depend on the LIRR operating east of Jamaica, even more so since there's a lack alternatives that links the city to the island. The n4, n6, n20G/H, n22 and n24 can only do so much to transport people between the NYC Subways and Nassau.

I'm not saying they don't, I'm saying that if they got everything they wanted, they wouldn't.

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I'm not saying they don't, I'm saying that if they got everything they wanted, they wouldn't.

I have a feeling that if LIRR could do what it wanted, there will be one city terminal Penn Station (and maybe GCT), and NO Diesel service. Main Line west of Ronk, OB Branch and Port Jeff E of Huntington will be all gone. Montauk will survive, during the summer months only

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