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Around the Horn

Community Board 10 demands shuttle buses for Bay Ridge Av closure

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*sigh*

 

 

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority must provide shuttle buses for weekday commuters while it closes three subway stations, including Bay Ridge Avenue, for six months of renovations, riders are demanding. Trains will skip the stations while the authority platforms spiffy upgrades, but providing no above-ground alternative will leave customers out in the cold for half a year, one critic said.

“It’s not fair to take something away and not replace it,” said Community Board 10 member Carmen Feliciano. “They’re going to shut down the stations, but not provide any buses. What’s the logic in that? How do they expect people to get to the station they need? You have got to do something.”

Bay Ridge Avenue, 53rd Street, and Prospect Avenue are the first of 31 subway stops getting new entrances, platforms, and countdown clocks under a Gov. Cuomo initiative to gussy up the city’s aging transit system. The 53rd Street station will close a March to November, and trains will skip Bay Ridge Avenue from April to December. The rep did not know the time lime for the Prospect Avenue station.

The authority’s bus division determined shuttles weren’t necessary on weekdays, but it is running extra buses on 10 to-be-determined weekends, a rep with NYC Transit announced during a Jan. 12 meeting of Community Board 10’s transportation committee.

But the station is the nabe’s second most-trafficked stop with more than 8,300 Metrocard users swiping in on a given weekday, according to transit authority data. The lack of interim options is unacceptable, according to the transit committee’s chairwoman.

“We have a large senior citizen population here in Bay Ridge, and the concern — for not just our seniors but for all residents — is making this major adjustment during the weekday when there is such heavy usage of that Bay Ridge Avenue station,” said Jaynemarie Capetanakis. “To leave our community without an alternative is just unacceptable. And so we have to come to not just a compromise but to a solution that will allow people to carry on with their daily lives.”

Transit officials even agreed with locals concerns, but couldn’t guarantee that the plan would change.

“I agree with you. And sometimes I’m sent to do a very difficult job. And I’m taking your concern back to my boss,” Metropolitan Transportation Authority rep William Montanile told community board members.

 

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My biggest concern is that in contrast to renovations of the last few years, the Bay Ridge Avenue rehabilitation will be mostly superficial and half-assed.  I heard that under Cuomo's proposal, they're not even going to restore the original BMT mosaics...

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They have 2 different buses running parallel to the line both a block away in either direction.

 

You can't be serious

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They have 2 different buses running parallel to the line both a block away in either direction.

 

You can't be serious

 

And the B9 literally travels between Bay Ridge Avenue and the next stop, 59th Street.

 

Yet people around 53rd Street which technically has no direct alternative (riders either have to take the B37 or B63 a few blocks or walk to 45th or 59th Street) aren't complaining.

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They have 2 different buses running parallel to the line both a block away in either direction.

 

You can't be serious

 

 

I don't think they're talking about riders in walking distance (said distance is debatable) to the B37/B63. It's the B9/64 riders..

 

With the (N) stations also OOS:

The B64 riders have a toss up between taking it to Bay 50 (D) or a 2 seat ride to the (R) and the E/B B9 runs every 12-15 mins AM rush. The latter is gonna need more service at the very least

 

Checkmate: no one using 53 St is going to end up with a 2 seat ride to the train because of the closure.. they can even use the B11 to the (D)

Edited by Q43 Floral Park

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I don't think they're talking about riders in walking distance (said distance is debatable) to the B37/B63. It's the B9/64 riders..

 

With the (N) stations also OOS:

The B64 riders have a toss up between taking it to Bay 50 (D) or a 2 seat ride to the (R) and the E/B B9 runs every 12-15 mins AM rush. The latter is gonna need more service at the very least

 

Checkmate: no one using 53 St is going to end up with a 2 seat ride to the train because of the closure.. they can even use the B11 to the (D)

 

A shuttle bus would still be a two-seat ride to the (R) if they insisted on starting their trip on the B64 coming from the east as opposed to using the B1, B4, B16, or B70 (to the (N)), depending on where exactly they are (once they're south of 86th Street, it makes more sense to just take a bus over to the (D) train). 

 

I would agree with using the resources that would've been devoted to the shuttle bus to simply adding service to the B9 (which would help riders coming from the west)

 

This also demonstrates the need for some restructuring of the bus network in that area. If you had a 13th/14th Avenue route separate from the B16, and had the B64 running to 86th & 4th with another route running down Bay Ridge Avenue/65th Street, residents would have easier alternatives in general. 

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A shuttle bus would still be a two-seat ride to the (R) if they insisted on starting their trip on the B64 coming from the east as opposed to using the B1, B4, B16, or B70 (to the (N)), depending on where exactly they are (once they're south of 86th Street, it makes more sense to just take a bus over to the (D) train). 

 

I would agree with using the resources that would've been devoted to the shuttle bus to simply adding service to the B9 (which would help riders coming from the west)

 

This also demonstrates the need for some restructuring of the bus network in that area. If you had a 13th/14th Avenue route separate from the B16, and had the B64 running to 86th & 4th with another route running down Bay Ridge Avenue/65th Street, residents would have easier alternatives in general. 

 

 

Let me rephrase that: with a shuttle bus its a 2-seat ride but they're only paying once and I think that makes a difference. IIRC when they rehabbed the (4) in the Bronx they ran shuttle buses at the stations covered by the Bx10/28/32 despite the fact that they all have better AM Rush headways than the B9/64. 

 

I'm not familiar with the area in terms of how long the blocks are but I agree anyone off the B1/4 should use them ideally. That being said Ft Ham (N)/B16 will only be a N/B option and the B70 from 8 Av (N) requires crossing the Gowanus at Ovington. If someone is going east along BR Avenue they'll still have to x-fer to the B64 or walk. For an able bodied person fine, but during a summer heat wave or snowstorm it's an accessibility issue. 

 

Besides extra B9 service or a shuttle bus the only other thing I can think of is having the B16 run like the Q16 and split at BR/Ft Ham, use BR-13Av and give them service to New Utrecht. 

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Well now that CB10 has spoken, I'll throw my support behind them. They've obviously received complaints and have to represent their constituents' needs. It's that simple. The (MTA) needs to come up with a viable solution since they agree with the assessment. If this was a poor neighborhood they wouldn't pull this crap and they can't get away with doing it to middle class neighborhoods either.

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I bought this issue up when the subject of the closure of the Sea Beach tunnels came up and my position remains the same as Shuttle buses must be provided as it is a total closure of the station, not just one side.

For the record, the B/37 service will not help as on the return trip, one has to cross 3rd Avenue at 60th Street and is extremely dangerous.

5th Avenue is not that far from the station but the service has been cut over the years so it is not a viable alternative.The B/64 goes nowhere near the subway lines and no one will want to backtrack to Bay 50th Street. The 16 has the N Line station out toward the city and again the service is not that great. The B/70 has lousy headways but the walk is not that bad from Bay Ridge Avenue with the exception of 65th Street.

The 9 is listed as having delays caused by the N Line closure ever since it began and service has been increased as a result. 

The question becomes can the 9 handle the additional loads even with the increased service levels and the answer is no and that is how the community board same up with their answer which I fully agree with as increased loading on the B/9 will result in more delays in service.

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Let me rephrase that: with a shuttle bus its a 2-seat ride but they're only paying once and I think that makes a difference. IIRC when they rehabbed the (4) in the Bronx they ran shuttle buses at the stations covered by the Bx10/28/32 despite the fact that they all have better AM Rush headways than the B9/64.

True story. You had the (D) 3-4 blocks over in most cases, so there was plenty of ways to spread the ridership out at those closed Jerome stations (well, the ones between 183rd and Bedford Park at least.)

 

CB10's concerns aren't without merit either. Over on the (J) line, 121st Street is closing soon for rehab work but they're not going to run shuttle buses there. They're telling people to walk to 111 or take existing bus service (granted it's only one direction at a time they will close.)

Edited by paulrivera

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The B37 runs every 30 minutes now on weekday evenings due to cutbacks, and on weekends bus bunching is so severe you can wait up to 90 minutes for 3 B37's in a row.  I don't think the MTA expects riders to wait 90 minutes for a B37 bus.  The community needs shuttle buses - I still can't understand what is so important that it necessitates a total shutdown of the station for 6 months.  (At least keep service in one direction!)

 

Also, the MTA is providing free shuttle buses to displaced #3 riders in East New York right now.  So there is no reason why they can't provide shuttle buses to displaced R riders in Bay Ridge.

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The B37 runs every 30 minutes now on weekday evenings due to cutbacks, and on weekends bus bunching is so severe you can wait up to 90 minutes for 3 B37's in a row.  I don't think the MTA expects riders to wait 90 minutes for a B37 bus.  The community needs shuttle buses - I still can't understand what is so important that it necessitates a total shutdown of the station for 6 months.  (At least keep service in one direction!)

 

Also, the MTA is providing free shuttle buses to displaced #3 riders in East New York right now.  So there is no reason why they can't provide shuttle buses to displaced R riders in Bay Ridge.

That's the other thing.  I wouldn't mind the idea of no shuttle buses if the buses that ran in the area were reliable, but we both know that isn't the case, and anyone here saying otherwise is telling an outright lie.  Additionally, as you said, if this was a poor community, they would run the buses for fear of being called racist against poor communities/communities of color, but when it comes to middle class neighborhoods, they think it is okay to take from us.  That is one reason I was adamant about protesting and fighting to get bus service restored in Southern Brooklyn (both local and express buses).  We have to continue to be vocal and not let them get away with the nonsense that they are pulling.

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The B37 runs every 30 minutes now on weekday evenings due to cutbacks, and on weekends bus bunching is so severe you can wait up to 90 minutes for 3 B37's in a row. I don't think the MTA expects riders to wait 90 minutes for a B37 bus. The community needs shuttle buses - I still can't understand what is so important that it necessitates a total shutdown of the station for 6 months. (At least keep service in one direction!)

 

Also, the MTA is providing free shuttle buses to displaced #3 riders in East New York right now. So there is no reason why they can't provide shuttle buses to displaced R riders in Bay Ridge.

That's because there is no east-west alternative with the (3). Everything in the area (B20/60/83) runs north-south of the closed stations, and the closest east-west alternative is the B15, and even that's close to half a mile away.
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That's because there is no east-west alternative with the (3). Everything in the area (B20/60/83) runs north-south of the closed stations, and the closest east-west alternative is the B15, and even that's close to half a mile away.

 

EXACTLY!

 

And I see a lot of "the Community Board says its a problem so they must have gotten a lot of complaints" in this thread which is laughable. No one really cares about this. The Community Board is the only group advocating for this...

 

I stand by my analysis that no shuttle bus is necessary, and it will be pretty empty if they do implement one.

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EXACTLY!

 

And I see a lot of "the Community Board says its a problem so they must have gotten a lot of complaints" in this thread which is laughable. No one really cares about this. The Community Board is the only group advocating for this...

 

I stand by my analysis that no shuttle bus is necessary, and it will be pretty empty if they do implement one.

Why would it be laughable?  Have you ever been to a community board meeting?  I don't think they just came up with this just because. 

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I think it's absurd that there isn't a shuttle bus. For everyone saying to just take the B9, or whatever other bus, you seem to be forgetting that that's an extra fare to people who live near the station and have to transfer. I see no reason why in a system with thousands of buses, they can't dedicate one, singular bus to run back and forth between the station.

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I think that an important issue is being raised here and not only involves the closure of stations on the R Line, it involves all closures for repairs of subway stations on an extended basis. What I think is happening is that there really is no policy and to do each closure on a case by case basis which means the political element becomes the controlling factor.

Taking it one step further, the closure of Pennsylvania Avenue must have a shuttle bus to Van Siclen Avenue at all times. The idea that the routes going north on Pennsylvania Avenue can provide the service is crazy. What I think is the problem is that this change came in the middle of a pick and East new York does not have the buses or drivers available. Remember that the bus and subway divisions are separate and I personally doubt if there is a high degree of communication between the two divisions which is necessary in matters such as station closures. After all look at the unplanned changes and how hard it is to make buses available which means that there are few buses and drivers available when it is not planned.

The shuttle bus for the R Line closure is something that must be provided for the six month period of closure.

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Let me rephrase that: with a shuttle bus its a 2-seat ride but they're only paying once and I think that makes a difference. IIRC when they rehabbed the (4) in the Bronx they ran shuttle buses at the stations covered by the Bx10/28/32 despite the fact that they all have better AM Rush headways than the B9/64. 

 

I think it's absurd that there isn't a shuttle bus. For everyone saying to just take the B9, or whatever other bus, you seem to be forgetting that that's an extra fare to people who live near the station and have to transfer. I see no reason why in a system with thousands of buses, they can't dedicate one, singular bus to run back and forth between the station.

 

If the extra fare is an issue, then you can program an extra transfer in and call it a day. 

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Yes, you probably don't need a shuttle bus. 
But they also CERTAINLY do not need to shut down the station. 
If you are going to unnecessarily close a station for a cosmetic/political overhaul, the least you can do is provide a shuttle bus to reduce the pain over a shutdown for nothing.   

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The B37 runs every 30 minutes now on weekday evenings due to cutbacks, and on weekends bus bunching is so severe you can wait up to 90 minutes for 3 B37's in a row.  I don't think the MTA expects riders to wait 90 minutes for a B37 bus.  The community needs shuttle buses - I still can't understand what is so important that it necessitates a total shutdown of the station for 6 months.  (At least keep service in one direction!)

 

Also, the MTA is providing free shuttle buses to displaced #3 riders in East New York right now.  So there is no reason why they can't provide shuttle buses to displaced R riders in Bay Ridge.

 

I didn't mean to upvote that post. And in any case, the B9 would be the main alternative and that runs more frequently than the B37.

 

That's the other thing.  I wouldn't mind the idea of no shuttle buses if the buses that ran in the area were reliable, but we both know that isn't the case, and anyone here saying otherwise is telling an outright lie.  Additionally, as you said, if this was a poor community, they would run the buses for fear of being called racist against poor communities/communities of color, but when it comes to middle class neighborhoods, they think it is okay to take from us.  That is one reason I was adamant about protesting and fighting to get bus service restored in Southern Brooklyn (both local and express buses).  We have to continue to be vocal and not let them get away with the nonsense that they are pulling.

 

53rd Street in Sunset Park (a minority neighborhood, albeit not as poor as ENY) is also being affected by these closures, and I don't see Community Board 7 demanding shuttle buses.

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I didn't mean to upvote that post. And in any case, the B9 would be the main alternative and that runs more frequently than the B37.

 

53rd Street in Sunset Park (a minority neighborhood, albeit not as poor as ENY) is also being affected by these closures, and I don't see Community Board 7 demanding shuttle buses.

 

 

I don't think this is an issue regarding the supply of services based on socioeconomic status like some implied. It's simple, no one in CB7 is going to end up with a 2 seat ride to the train because of this closure. Anyone west of 4th can take the B37 or B11 to the (D) if they can't walk. Anyone between 5-9th Aves can use the B63/70 to 36 St for any of the trains. East of 9th Av it just makes sense to take the (D).

 

At BR Av someone will end up with a 2-seat ride for the sole reason that the B64 makes a turn at 13Av and doesn't serve another station till Bay 50. You mentioned setting up a double x-fer B64/B9/® but has that ever happened in lieu of a shuttle bus?

 

True story. You had the (D) 3-4 blocks over in most cases, so there was plenty of ways to spread the ridership out at those closed Jerome stations (well, the ones between 183rd and Bedford Park at least.)

 

CB10's concerns aren't without merit either. Over on the (J) line, 121st Street is closing soon for rehab work but they're not going to run shuttle buses there. They're telling people to walk to 111 or take existing bus service (granted it's only one direction at a time they will close.)

 

 

My memory is slipping but I think the (4) Shuttle buses looped and also served the (D) stations. They basically made it so no one could complain. Re: 121, they're pulling the same move as when they rehabbed 238 St (1). Luckily, taking the (J) to Sutphin and doubling back (the option they should be telling riders) doesn't force them to sit at the terminal.

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53rd Street in Sunset Park (a minority neighborhood, albeit not as poor as ENY) is also being affected by these closures, and I don't see Community Board 7 demanding shuttle buses.

And?  Two different community boards representing two different communities...

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I don't think this is an issue regarding the supply of services based on socioeconomic status like some implied. It's simple, no one in CB7 is going to end up with a 2 seat ride to the train because of this closure. Anyone west of 4th can take the B37 or B11 to the (D) if they can't walk. Anyone between 5-9th Aves can use the B63/70 to 36 St for any of the trains. East of 9th Av it just makes sense to take the (D).

 

At BR Av someone will end up with a 2-seat ride for the sole reason that the B64 makes a turn at 13Av and doesn't serve another station till Bay 50. You mentioned setting up a double x-fer B64/B9/® but has that ever happened in lieu of a shuttle bus?

 

Yes. When they did some (A) closures between the Rockaways and Rockaway Blvd, they gave riders a Q22/Q52/ (A)  transfer. When the  (2) runs to South Ferry instead of Brooklyn, they program a South Ferry  (1)  (2) / Bowling Green  (4)  (5) walking transfer instead of a shuttle bus between the two.

 

Plus anyone along Bay Ridge Av who would take the B64 to the (R), can walk to the B70 towards 8 Av  (N) or B16 to Ft Hamilton Pkwy (N) or 55 St  (D) or walk 6 blocks south to Bay Ridge Pkwy for the B4 to 77 St  (R) and avoid a two seat ride. West of Bay Ridge Avenue (which is the majority of ridership at this station I might add) can just take the next B9 instead of the B64.

Edited by Around the Horn
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And?  Two different community boards representing two different communities...

 

So your point about the MTA rushing to serve minority communities is invalid because in this case, there's a minority community that is getting the same treatment as a non-minority community.

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So your point about the MTA rushing to serve minority communities is invalid because in this case, there's a minority community that is getting the same treatment as a non-minority community.

No it isn't because overall, they've done just that.  The service cuts in 2010 in Brooklyn were mainly to Southern Brooklyn in middle class neighborhoods.  Very little buses were touched in minority neighborhoods in the borough.  They cut or restructured the B2, B4, B31, B37, B64 and the X27 and X28, and it was only because of consistent pressure over the years that many of those lines were restored, so I don't even want to hear it.  

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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