PANYNJ issues preliminary engineering RFP for LaGuardia AirTrain

[P3F]

The positive I think will come out of this, is the creation of an existing system that can be later expanded. It will become obvious that the cannot handle all airport passengers, which is a good reason to, in the future, connect the Astoria Line to the AirTrain.

 

In addition, they might remodel Willets Point station, which currently has a rather unsightly configuration. (And make it ADA-accessible as well.)

[agar io]

When this AirTrain LGA was being planned, did no one think of connecting it with the AirTrain JFK? Or even to a subway/LIRR complex with a higher capacity, like the AirTrain JFK does at Jamaica?

 

Obviously it is stupid to connect it to the overcrowded with no backup from other subway lines. I hope the MTA offers more frequent service at Willets Point to at least make this viable.

It is already bad enough on the wider trains. I can't imagine it on the . They have Mets Specials, but will Prince Andrew ask for Airport specials that make no stops from Manhattan to Mets-Willets?

 

Maybe on the LIRR, but if so, count on the Midtown-to-airport fare being $12.00 each way per person.

[Eric B]

I'm sure there are provisions to connect them in the future. Since it will take the Grand Central and then turn off to Willets Point, just like the JFK line turns off toward Jamaica, all they have to do is build the connecting straight line down Grand Central to join them.

Right now, they have to start with the basic airport portion.

[CenSin]

I'm sure there are provisions to connect them in the future. Since it will take the Grand Central and then turn off to Willets Point, just like the JFK line turns off toward Jamaica, all they have to do is build the connecting straight line down Grand Central to join them.

Right now, they have to start with the basic airport portion.

And that’s the only reason that this project makes sense—future straight-shot connectivity to the JFK going down the highway. I hope they also leave provisions to extend the AirTrain west too—to Astoria and possibly to Manhattan to replace the M60’s role as an LGA bus.

[bobtehpanda]

And that’s the only reason that this project makes sense—future straight-shot connectivity to the JFK going down the highway. I hope they also leave provisions to extend the AirTrain west too—to Astoria and possibly to Manhattan to replace the M60’s role as an LGA bus.

 

It will never replace the M60 simply because it's not supposed to be able to serve non-airport travelers; no non-transfer, non-CBD, non-airport stops allowed. If you connect AirTrain JFK that's guaranteed, because even if LGA's AirTrain is not funded with airport ticket PFCs, JFK's was, and the moment you void the non-airport agreement, the FAA is going to come knocking demanding the money be paid back.

[CenSin]

It will never replace the M60 simply because it's not supposed to be able to serve non-airport travelers; no non-transfer, non-CBD, non-airport stops allowed. If you connect AirTrain JFK that's guaranteed, because even if LGA's AirTrain is not funded with airport ticket PFCs, JFK's was, and the moment you void the non-airport agreement, the FAA is going to come knocking demanding the money be paid back.

I was aware of that, which is why I specifically phrased things the way I did:

to replace the M60’s role as an LGA bus.

Notice that I did not simply say “replace the M60.”

 

This could be feasibly accomplished:

• in the LGA-bound direction, only boarding is allowed.
• in the Manhattan-bound direction, only exiting is allowed.

By controlling which platforms are entry-only or exit-only, the service plays by the rules.

[Italianstallion]

The JFK Airtrain as a separate unit from the rest of the rail system makes some sense since it doubles as an intra-airport connector, given the multiple terminals at JFK arrayed in a circle.

 

But at LGA, there is no need for that. There will be only 2 stations, arrayed in a straight line. So, why can't the would-be Airtrain tracks simply be connected to the LIRR at Willets Point, as a branch of the PW line from Penn Station? Then run trains from LGA to Penn every 15 or 20 or 30  minutes - a one-seat ride, nice comfortable trains, no fancy expensive incompatible technology, etc.

[bobtehpanda]

The JFK Airtrain as a separate unit from the rest of the rail system makes some sense since it doubles as an intra-airport connector, given the multiple terminals at JFK arrayed in a circle.

 

But at LGA, there is no need for that. There will be only 2 stations, arrayed in a straight line. So, why can't the would-be Airtrain tracks simply be connected to the LIRR at Willets Point, as a branch of the PW line from Penn Station? Then run trains from LGA to Penn every 15 or 20 or 30  minutes - a one-seat ride, nice comfortable trains, no fancy expensive incompatible technology, etc.

 

Keep in mind that we have no idea what technology the AirTrain LGA is going to run at all.

 

There's no need for a direct rail connection, and constraining the whole thing to the LIRR's standards would be much more expensive than your run-of-the-mill airport train, Bombardier Innovia or otherwise.

[Around the Horn]

Somewhat O/T...

 

If I'm not mistaken isn't the JFK Airtrain built to handle B-Division NTT's? How long are the current platforms? 240'?

[Fresh Pond]

Somewhat O/T...

 

If I'm not mistaken isn't the JFK Airtrain built to handle B-Division NTT's? How long are the current platforms? 240'?

The cars are 57' 9" long, and 10' 2" wide. The platforms can i think hold 4 cars.

[CenSin]

The cars are 57' 9" long, and 10' 2" wide. The platforms can i think hold 4 cars.

Some of the stations are going to be a pain in the ass to lengthen then. Federal Circle has switches to the north and a curve to the south.

 

The report recommends studying the possibility of an LIRR connection via Atlantic or Sunnyside:

 

The Panel also recommends that the MTA and the Port Authority conduct a comprehensive analysis on rail access to JFK, including the possibility of a one-seat ride to JFK Airport from Penn Station New York, Grand Central Terminal, and/or Brooklyn’s Atlantic Avenue/Barclays Station to JFK.

[Italianstallion]

Some of the stations are going to be a pain in the ass to lengthen then. Federal Circle has switches to the north and a curve to the south.

 

The report recommends studying the possibility of an LIRR connection via Atlantic or Sunnyside:

 

How ironic that they are considering connecting the JFK AirTrain to the rest of the system, while building a much shorter LGA AirTrain that would be separate.

[Italianstallion]

Some of the stations are going to be a pain in the ass to lengthen then. Federal Circle has switches to the north and a curve to the south.

 

The report recommends studying the possibility of an LIRR connection via Atlantic or Sunnyside:

http://www.ga.com/websites/ga/docs/transportation/magnetruck/JFK%20Airtrain%20Design%20Paper.pdf

 

Future LIRR System Compatibility

 

The project performance specifications called for car widths and station platform heights that are compatible with the LIRR and NYCT transit systems. This leaves open the possibility of providing a “one seat ride” from Manhattan to JFK by directly connecting AirTrain JFK to the LIRR or NYCTA rail systems at either Jamaica or Howard Beach.



For the “one seat ride” service, a new rail car will have to be designed to operate both on AirTrain JFK territory as well as on LIRR/NYCTA territory. This vehicle has to have structural strength and crashworthiness compatibility with the Heavy Rail Vehicles operated by LIRR or NYCT. The AirTrain vehicles are fully automated with a linear induction motor (LIM) traction system and steer- able bogies to make the tight turn radii in the JFK CTA. The LIRR and NYCTA systems are manually controlled with conventional electric motor propulsion. It is feasible that a hybrid rail vehicle that could run on both systems can be developed, manufactured, tested, and eventually put into service.

 

[Italianstallion]

Some of the stations are going to be a pain in the ass to lengthen then. Federal Circle has switches to the north and a curve to the south.

 

The report recommends studying the possibility of an LIRR connection via Atlantic or Sunnyside:

http://transweb.sjsu.edu/PDFs/research/2503/2503_cases/2503-cs2-jfk-airtrain.pdf

 

AirTrain vehicles to provide a one-seat ride to or from Manhattan. The AirTrain cars were sized to be compatible with LIRR operation, while the AirTrain guideway and stations were sized and designed to accommodate LIRR or NYCT subway trains in the future, if such operations were found to be desirable. However, the current AirTrain cars do not meet design standards for heavy rail operation and their linear induction propulsion system would not allow operation on LIRR tracks, so it would be necessary to develop a different vehicle to allow operation by AirTrain cars to Manhattan, although this would appear to be technically feasible.5

 

Aside from any issues that interoperability might raise from the use of Passenger Facility Charge (PFC) revenues to construct the system, it is unclear whether the benefits of operating LIRR or NYCT trains into the CTA would justify the costs and operational complexities involved. Operating AirTrain car sets between the airport and Manhattan may make more sense, particularly in terms of serving visitors to the New York region, who may not be familiar with the LIRR service. However, this may be a situation where improved passenger information provides almost as much benefit as a one-seat ride at vastly less cost. While a one-seat ride would eliminate the transfer at Jamaica Station, most AirTrain users would have to make further transfers in Manhattan anyway, so the benefit of eliminating one transfer is likely to be fairly modest, as long as travelers have good information about the LIRR service between Jamaica Station and Manhattan.

[Caelestor]

The natural terminus of the AirTrain Laguardia is Jackson Heights - Roosevelt Ave, where 5 different subway services converge. It would run via the BQX for most of the way to avoid complaints from residents.

 

The question is, do the people want a station there?

[CenSin]

The natural terminus of the AirTrain Laguardia is Jackson Heights - Roosevelt Ave, where 5 different subway services converge. It would run via the BQX for most of the way to avoid complaints from residents.

 

The question is, do the people want a station there?

Junction Boulevard would have been a straight shot up from Howard Beach to the airport. The Rockaway right-of-way’s successor to the north of Queens Boulevard is Junction Boulevard.

 

The route from Roosevelt Avenue and Broadway is still kind of round-about if following the highway. From Astoria Boulevard would still be a better option as it is already over the highway, has a clear path to the airport, and is an express stop.

[RR503]

No reason one couldn't do both...

If choosing 1 though, I'd go for Roosevelt. It gets you more places, and it's much more accessible from Brooklyn than Astoria.

[Italianstallion]

From Astoria Boulevard would still be a better option as it is already over the highway, has a clear path to the airport, and is an express stop.

 

As I already pointed out, there is not a clear path to the airport from Astoria Blvd. The Hell Gate viaduct wouldd be an engineering nightmare to get through.

[R10 2952]

Extending the Astoria Line to Laguardia would still cost less than building an entirely new line from scratch in the first place...

[bobtehpanda]

The problem with any extension from the west has always been the runway. You can't really clear the runway's landing path with a train coming from the west, since there's not any place to take a line underground and there's no room alongside the GCP.

[CenSin]

The problem with any extension from the west has always been the runway. You can't really clear the runway's landing path with a train coming from the west, since there's not any place to take a line underground and there's no room alongside the GCP.

There’s plenty of room along the median. The highway itself could be expanded since the road itself actually leaves a generous margin on either side for much of its length.

[bobtehpanda]

There’s plenty of room along the median. The highway itself could be expanded since the road itself actually leaves a generous margin on either side for much of its length.

 

The median is a lane wide, and isn't that margin actually embankment for the surrounding roads? It would be a major construction project to change it to accommodate transit (thanks, Moses)

[CenSin]

The median is a lane wide, and isn't that margin actually embankment for the surrounding roads? It would be a major construction project to change it to accommodate transit (thanks, Moses)

Dig a trench. Where it’s not wide enough, make it a cut-and-cover tunnel.

[agar io]

Dig a trench. Where it’s not wide enough, make it a cut-and-cover tunnel.

The traffic on GCP is pretty bad, despite Moses's conquest to build only highways and not spend a single cent on transit.

 

Narrowing it would either make traffic worse, or reduce demand on overall traffic itself. However, we wouldn't know until we start building.

[RR503]

Dig a trench. Where it’s not wide enough, make it a cut-and-cover tunnel.

 Neither of those are particularly palatable options from an engineering standpoint. The area you'd be tunnelling/trenching through is below sea level, and the water table.