Wallyhorse Posted February 19, 2017 Share #51 Posted February 19, 2017 Which is why AirTrain LGA is a waste. But if Cuomo wants a train, may as well make it useful on two fronts: congestion reduction and serving an actual need, not a "it'd be nice if..." want. Which is why I would do this as possible a new branch of the SAS that can have a new stop at 126th/2nd (after the main branch turns) and then go to Queens, first stopping on Randalls Island (giving that subway service), possibly going elevated there and then running above ground to LaGuardia and then continuing to Willets Point (on the proposed AirTrain route) with provisions to go on to JFK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted February 21, 2017 Share #52 Posted February 21, 2017 If the extension of the Astoria line won't fly due to NIMBYism, what makes you think a branch of 2nd Avenue, elevated under your proposal as well, will fare better? It also ignores the other main problem with an elevated line near LGA, which is the height clearance in the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted February 21, 2017 Share #53 Posted February 21, 2017 As you know, we've had quite a discussion on this over in thread on Governor Cuomo's Executive Budget on this and I'm bringing over that discussion here: Well what options are there to LaGuardia that would be cheaper than what's on the table (from an infrastructure standpoint)? It wouldn't be cheaper, but it would be far better. Think of it like JFK airtrain - how that has access to both Howard Beach and Sutphin Blvd. LGA airtrain - subway from 125th St. (and 2nd Ave. which actually won't be in the way of SAS Phase II) to Randalls Island, that rises to "elevated" somewhere in Randalls Island, goes over the generally industrial area at Lawrence Point and Bowery Bay wastewater treatment plant, reaches the airport, and continues to Willets Point. No residential areas disturbed. This I would actually do as subway and possibly an additional branch of the SAS. If done that way, it can be a best-of-both-worlds scenario as it would give those in Flushing (especially if it were also an SAS branch) a new way to get to the east side and take some pressure off the . Nope, not as "subway" as in part of NYCT. "Subway" as in underground at 125th and 2nd. A dedicated ROW with a higher fare just like JFK AirTrain, and "connection" - no transfers. It would be primarily for airport travelers. It would allow people who were willing to pay $5 easier access to Manhattan from those parts of Queens, but it's primary purpose would be to expedite trips to the airport and eliminate M60 congestion so that particular bus is less of a hell ride, although, like the Q10 it would remain an option for those who don't want to pay the $5 to turn their hour long bus ride into 5 minutes on the AirTrain. No stop on Randall's either. Give the airport passengers the fastest possible ride, and AirTrain shouldn't be for sports teams travelling to/from Randall's. Also eliminates the adminstrative problems talked about above. I get that, but I think it would be better as subway, including a stop as noted at Randalls Island (where such a line would go above ground) before continuing on such an ROW to LaGuardia and then continue to Willets Points to meet the there. This format would both benefit airport passengers coming from the east side of Manhattan and those in Flushing who only have to ride the one stop to Willets Point, taking major pressure off the west of Willets Point. Such also might allow for some development of Randalls Island having more than just the Triboro Bridge to get there. This legitimately makes sense. It could reduce crowding on the and put more people onto the SAS, if a connection is made. Exactly! The idea would be this:It would be line coming from the SAS. Instead of turning west at 125, it would turn east at 124th to a new station at 124th Street/1st-2nd Avenues and then turn into a tunnel going southeast to the first of two stops on Randall's Island, an underground stop just north of Ichan (formerly Downing) Stadium and Field 10. The line would then either continue underground or come above ground with a second stop at Reilly Boulevard and Kamisky Road on the east end of the island (either way) before subsequently going (either underground or via a new bridge) with the first stop in Queens at Steinway Street and Berrand Boulevard before continuing to LaGuardia to the point where the AirTrain is supposed to go and serving all terminals at LaGuardia. After LaGuardia, this line would run as the AirTrain is supposed to up to Willets Point and a transfer to the . So in this format, the stops for this SAS branch north of 116th Street would be:124th Street/1st-2nd AvenuesIchan Stadium (Randall's Island)Kaminsky Road (Randall's Island) Steinway Street-Berrand Boulevard (Queens)LaGuardia AirportMets-Willets Point (Transfer to ).If possible, provisions for this line to be extended east beyond Willets Point could be included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR503 Posted February 21, 2017 Share #54 Posted February 21, 2017 Talk about a roundabout route.... Distances aside, Willets point-GCT is currently 7 stops on the . On this line it'd be 11. That's a LONG time to be on a train. I see the love of 2nd avenue, but I don't really see how this'd work. You're going waaay north to head back south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted February 21, 2017 Share #55 Posted February 21, 2017 Talk about a roundabout route.... Distances aside, Willets point-GCT is currently 7 stops on the . On this line it'd be 11. That's a LONG time to be on a train. I see the love of 2nd avenue, but I don't really see how this'd work. You're going waaay north to head back south. This route would give those who actually live on the upper east side a way to get to LaGuardia while at the same time also give those in Flushing an alternative to the , especially if they actually work on the UES. Not everyone works in midtown, and especially with the high-rises that are going up there that will be even more the case in the years ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR503 Posted February 21, 2017 Share #56 Posted February 21, 2017 Kinda not though. I ran an O/D analysis on Flushing and environs, and here are the results. It's a teensy fraction of the total commuter population. Also, in regards to UES - > LGA traffic, what about everyone else in the city???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted February 21, 2017 Share #57 Posted February 21, 2017 Kinda not though. I ran an O/D analysis on Flushing and environs, and here are the results. It's a teensy fraction of the total commuter population. Also, in regards to UES - > LGA traffic, what about everyone else in the city???? The idea is, this version of it serves multiple masters. You have people in Flushing that will go to LaGuardia via this route from the (as well as in some cases from Manhattan) while others will use the LIRR to get to LaGuardia. Then you have those coming from the Upper East Side who will use it to get to LaGuardia as well as others who will transfer to that line from the to get there and in both cases as well for Randalls Island when there are events at Ichan Stadium or if they use the various other facilities that are there (why I would have two stops on Randalls Island). And then you have people coming from LaGuardia who actually are heading for hotels that are on the UES (something you've only had in the last decade or so in some cases). And then there are those who live in Flushing but actually work on the Upper East Side. That may be small now, but that has the potential to grow considerably as many more high-rises go up and the UES eventually has to expand into Harlem with newer high-rises even going up there. And the may be seven stops from Flushing to Grand Central, but what about the other hours when the is NOT running and only the is? Especially in off hours, this new line to Flushing via LaGuardia and the SAS may prove to be very popular with Flushing residents. This would also be part of a longer-term plan to have such a line eventually go to JFK as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR503 Posted February 21, 2017 Share #58 Posted February 21, 2017 I agree that N Queens needs more service, but why don't you build a line that goes places people want to go. Big detours like that aren't hot with the NY crowd. I'd suggest either making the PW branch a subway or building new on Northern Boulevard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mtatransit Posted February 21, 2017 Share #59 Posted February 21, 2017 Upper East Side to ... Flushing? That's new... Pretty sure the demographic of the area either works in Brooklyn, Downtown, or Midtown. Same thing with UES, they would go to Midtown, and Downtown but to Flushing? I Don't see many riders doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CenSin Posted February 22, 2017 Share #60 Posted February 22, 2017 The idea is, this version of it serves multiple masters. The idea behind not doing it is to make it a master of one. As the saying goes: “jack of all trades, but master of none.” The more roles you try to shoehorn onto a line, the less efficient it becomes at doing any of them. And then there is the cost/benefit ratio. How many much money do you spend, and how many people-minutes do you waste by diverting resources to a specific goal? My informed opinion is that a 2 Avenue connection from the hundreds in Manhattan to the airport does a disservice to those in the Bronx who need it more, is nowhere near efficient enough geometrically to properly serve commuters in Queens going to Manhattan, and its importance is eclipsed by the much larger volume of passengers with no business concerning the airport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deucey Posted February 22, 2017 Share #61 Posted February 22, 2017 My informed opinion is that a 2 Avenue connection from the hundreds in Manhattan to the airport does a disservice to those in the Bronx who need it more, is nowhere near efficient enough geometrically to properly serve commuters in Queens going to Manhattan, and its importance is eclipsed by the much larger volume of passengers with no business concerning the airport. I guess the big question for efficacy of this 125th-LGA line would be "how many people would take this line versus driving over the Triboro Bridge, and how many people would take it from the Bx, Uptown and Westchester to go to LGA? I'd love a crosstown train on 125 that goes to LGA, but I don't think traffic to/from LGA will be high enough to justify a NYCTA subway. Maybe a NYCTA lightrail/streetcar, or an actual' "AirTrain LGA", but I don't see 10-car trains being half-full often enough to justify construction costs (unless the line went south after Broadway to make another Westside trunk line). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted February 22, 2017 Share #62 Posted February 22, 2017 I guess the big question for efficacy of this 125th-LGA line would be "how many people would take this line versus driving over the Triboro Bridge, and how many people would take it from the Bx, Uptown and Westchester to go to LGA? I'd love a crosstown train on 125 that goes to LGA, but I don't think traffic to/from LGA will be high enough to justify a NYCTA subway. Maybe a NYCTA lightrail/streetcar, or an actual' "AirTrain LGA", but I don't see 10-car trains being half-full often enough to justify construction costs (unless the line went south after Broadway to make another Westside trunk line). This is why I do such a line on the SAS from Flushing through LGA to Manhattan (with the intention to eventually extend such all the way to JFK if possible). The UES is a growing area and I think such a line from Flushing would be beneficial, especially if it gets people off the and makes it easier on those who need the east of Willets Point. As for The Bronx, that is very important as well, and that can be a third branch of an SAS (with provisions in the Bronx for an additional connection from a Third Avenue Line in the future that I think will eventually be needed if they do the kind of building that has been proposed for midtown in addition to the SAS). That could be done by making 116 (if you're going to re-do that station anyway) a three-track, two-platform station that would allow for one line (from Queens or The Bronx) to short-turn some trains if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted February 22, 2017 Share #63 Posted February 22, 2017 Kinda not though. I ran an O/D analysis on Flushing and environs, and here are the results. It's a teensy fraction of the total commuter population. Also, in regards to UES - > LGA traffic, what about everyone else in the city???? How did you do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR503 Posted February 22, 2017 Share #64 Posted February 22, 2017 How did you do that? https://onthemap.ces.census.gov Knock yourself out -- one of THE most useful sites on the net for armchair planners. It tracks commute flows down to the census tract level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deucey Posted February 22, 2017 Share #65 Posted February 22, 2017 This is why I do such a line on the SAS from Flushing through LGA to Manhattan (with the intention to eventually extend such all the way to JFK if possible). The UES is a growing area and I think such a line from Flushing would be beneficial, especially if it gets people off the and makes it easier on those who need the east of Willets Point. But I don't see many people making their commute from Eastern Queens longer (with two trains) just to avoid a crush-loaded . Especially Astorians that have the straight to Midtown in 20 minutes. That's why I think if the line had a dual-purpose - direct to LGA and then a super fast local down 10 Av to the Javits Center or 14th St, the line could be feasible: saves time on 125 St, takes some riders off the Broadway Line trains and makes the piers easier to get to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted February 22, 2017 Share #66 Posted February 22, 2017 The Daily News just came out in favor of the to LaGuardia... http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/train-plane-article-1.2975912 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubwayGuy Posted February 22, 2017 Share #67 Posted February 22, 2017 The whole point of having AirTrain to 125th and 2nd is to reflect the reality that the majority of people flying into and out of LGA are generally looking to go west of the airport, based on actual trips. This benefits anyone going to Manhattan or the Bronx, period, and even Brooklyn. From 125th, passengers will be able to walk to third or Lexington Avenues where by the time this is done, the Q should have reached 125th Street where the current plan calls for a transfer to the 4/5/6. This provides every LGA AirTrain customer with the following options: -No more than a 2 seat ride to any station in the Bronx (except the stations on the 1, which require backtracking) -Immediate access to Metro-North (for Westcheser people) -One seat service to both the east (4/5/6) and west sides of Manhattan -Easy access to get to the hub of Brooklyn (Atlantic/Pacific) from either the 4/5 or Q, same as now with the M60, but in much less time and without the high cost of getting a cab to take you from the airport to Brooklyn which will involve significant traffic. The only places that don't really benefit from the stop at 125th are in Queens/LI (since even Jersey people can take the Q to PATH, or close enough to Penn to walk to it). The main benefit is in reducing a lot of the taxi related traffic in Queens, as well as speeding up 125th Street traffic. AirTrain is not intended to be a replacement for the subway, and if it is, it must cost like one, like riding JFK AirTrain from Howard Beach to Sutphin Blvd. does. That allows you to build it with platform screen doors, two short trains in continuous service (except when taken offline for repairs on certain overnight hours periodically), and avoid all of the other craziness and amenities that need to be included to make it subway. It also discourages commuters who have a subway ride already from using it and creating horrendous crowding and unsanitary conditions as in the subway that would displace airport travelers. Furthermore, the 7 from Willets to Grand Central is around 20 minutes (express). As has been stated already in this thread, few commuters go UES->Flushing or vice versa, much less so Bronx->Flushing or vice versa, so this is irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR503 Posted February 22, 2017 Share #68 Posted February 22, 2017 I still don't think that airtrain to 125th is a good idea. Last year, the airport handled 29,786,769 passengers. As NYC is hands down the largest O&D market in the country, we can assume that about 80% of those people were either originating or terminating at the airport. That gives us 65,286 daily passengers originating or terminating at the airport. I get that there is a need for airtrain at LGA, but I think spending many billions of dollars on a line whose maximum possible number of passengers is puny compared to a real subway line is not that good of an idea. One other thought I had was this: what if you linked the 2 airtrains? Then you'd have a cross-queens line, connecting with the , , , , and trains, along with all the branches of the LIRR and 2 airports. If possible, it could be extended, and you could pick up the and . Maybe the PANYNJ could be convinced to allow free transfers to/from the subway if riders are both originating and terminating at subway transfer stops and not at the airports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted February 22, 2017 Share #69 Posted February 22, 2017 But I don't see many people making their commute from Eastern Queens longer (with two trains) just to avoid a crush-loaded . Especially Astorians that have the straight to Midtown in 20 minutes. That's why I think if the line had a dual-purpose - direct to LGA and then a super fast local down 10 Av to the Javits Center or 14th St, the line could be feasible: saves time on 125 St, takes some riders off the Broadway Line trains and makes the piers easier to get to. There's also those who WORK on the upper east side. That number is growing as well and will continue to grow sharply as many more new high-rises come online. They are the ones I can see getting this new line at Willets Point and coming in on the SAS. Midtown is not the be-all and end-all of commuters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted February 22, 2017 Share #70 Posted February 22, 2017 There's also those who WORK on the upper east side. That number is growing as well and will continue to grow sharply as many more new high-rises come online. They are the ones I can see getting this new line at Willets Point and coming in on the SAS. Midtown is not the be-all and end-all of commuters. May I ask exactly which job sector would most likely live in Flushing and work on the Upper East Side? That sounds like a very niche market to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted February 22, 2017 Share #71 Posted February 22, 2017 May I ask exactly which job sector would most likely live in Flushing and work on the Upper East Side? That sounds like a very niche market to me... I was thinking people who work in the buildings themselves and those who work in real estate in particular. Also the hospitals (New York Presbyterian, Lenox Hill and Metropolitan Hospital that in the latter case is right next to the 96th Street Station and Mount Sinai that can be reached on the SAS from 96th and a ride on the 96th Street Crosstown). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR503 Posted February 22, 2017 Share #72 Posted February 22, 2017 Again, that isn't a market. I looked at the commute market from flushing et environs to almost all of the bx + northern manhattan and got ^^^^ Only ~8000 commuters. PS how do you get the image to show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailRunRob Posted February 22, 2017 Share #73 Posted February 22, 2017 http://imgur.com/a/m6b3s Again, that isn't a market. I looked at the commute market from flushing et environs to almost all of the bx + northern manhattan and got ^^^^ Only ~8000 commuters. PS how do you get the image to show? Copy the BBCode (message boards & forums) and paste in the body Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted February 22, 2017 Share #74 Posted February 22, 2017 Just copy the URL, click on the image icon (look for the small tree) and paste it in the box... Here's the image you attempted to post: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted February 22, 2017 Share #75 Posted February 22, 2017 No need for all that. Just build a busway via the new LGA terminals from 82nd St to Northern Blvd. Really, this could even be LRT if you wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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