PANYNJ issues preliminary engineering RFP for LaGuardia AirTrain

[RailRunRob]

We need something like Transport for London over here

Indeed. What would that look like? More City control?

[Wallyhorse]

From an engineering standpoint, that would be extremely expensive. You'd have to tunnel underneath Central Park which would get all sorts of parks and preservation people in a tizzy, then go at least 3 levels below ground at CPW (to get under the IND), then make somewhat tighter radius turns while climbing up beneath plenty of high rise buildings to get to 96th. The cost of this alone would be significantly higher than just the 125th St. piece and the entire rest of the line.

 

I do agree with you about the bus route, if the compromise is a half measure, a dedicated busway for BRT (NOT the M60, however, this must be faster and have significantly fewer stops) is a better option than a stub rail line to WPT only.

Which is exactly why I would do it as a branch of the SAS that goes to Willets Point and comes into Manhattan via Randalls Island and 124th Street.  This can actually be the that then continues from there to eventually Hanover Square.   I suspect such a line would get considerably higher ridership on this branch than people realize.

[RR503]

Which is exactly why I would do it as a branch of the SAS that goes to Willets Point and comes into Manhattan via Randalls Island and 124th Street. This can actually be the that then continues from there to eventually Hanover Square. I suspect such a line would get considerably higher ridership on this branch than people realize.

Prove it. With all due respect, this feels like a plan for the sake of one. You still haven't demonstrated the need to spend so many billions of dollars on such a line.

 

Why is this better than a BX extension?

[Wallyhorse]

Prove it. With all due respect, this feels like a plan for the sake of one. You still haven't demonstrated the need to spend so many billions of dollars on such a line.

 

Why is this better than a BX extension?

I'm not saying its better than a Bronx extension at all, which really should go first.  This is more about politics since Cuomo wants to have a line from Willets Point to JFK anyway.   

 

Any Bronx extension that I would do would be mainly to recapture what was lost when the 3rd Avenue EL (Bronx Portion) was torn down.  

[RR503]

I'm not saying its better than a Bronx extension at all, which really should go first. This is more about politics since Cuomo wants to have a line from Willets Point to JFK anyway.

 

Any Bronx extension that I would do would be mainly to recapture what was lost when the 3rd Avenue EL (Bronx Portion) was torn down.

Building from LGA to JFK would be useful if the MTA and PANYNJ could work some agreement out where people can use the air train to move between the line's subway connection stations.

 

Otherwise, it's a useless waste of $$$.

[bobtehpanda]

From an engineering standpoint, that would be extremely expensive. You'd have to tunnel underneath Central Park which would get all sorts of parks and preservation people in a tizzy, then go at least 3 levels below ground at CPW (to get under the IND), then make somewhat tighter radius turns while climbing up beneath plenty of high rise buildings to get to 96th. The cost of this alone would be significantly higher than just the 125th St. piece and the entire rest of the line.

 

I do agree with you about the bus route, if the compromise is a half measure, a dedicated busway for BRT (NOT the M60, however, this must be faster and have significantly fewer stops) is a better option than a stub rail line to WPT only.

 

Fair point about the IND. You don't necessarily need to have it climb up since no other crosstown line really does that (I would like to have it under Amsterdam, where there is not much existing infrastructure), and where exactly it connects to the 7th Avenue Line is not really a big deal so long as it is an express station (so, either 72 or 96). How exactly did we dig under the park for 63 St?

 

Fair point about the bus, but the magic of the bus option is that it is usable for literally any route operable by a bus. I just chose the M60 as an example since it's a bus that already exists and can be used as a reference point. The M60 needs less stops in Manhattan, but the Queens stops are already far apart, and the busway into LGA would make it even farther apart since there wouldn't be any stops on 23 Av anymore.

[Juelz4309]

Eminent domain should be used to just extend the N W To lga...The needs of the greater good should overule all that nimby noise..Its so ass bakwards to backtrack thru willets pt when you have a good subway line not far off...a direct seat to times sq...This extension shoulda been built Yrs ago...drop the line underground and be done with it already

 

 

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[agar io]

Eminent domain should be used to just extend the N W To lga...The needs of the greater good should overule all that nimby noise..Its so ass bakwards to backtrack thru willets pt when you have a good subway line not far off...a direct seat to times sq...This extension shoulda been built Yrs ago...drop the line underground and be done with it already

 

 

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Agreed. Nothing wrong with extending an already existing subway to LGA.

 

I think the original subway extension proposal was canceled in 2003 since the residents would have taken it to the US Supreme Court if they'd tried hard enough. That would have cost the MTA tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars that it doesn't need to waste. Also, it would have been politically unpopular.

[bobtehpanda]

Agreed. Nothing wrong with extending an already existing subway to LGA.

 

I think the original subway extension proposal was canceled in 2003 since the residents would have taken it to the US Supreme Court if they'd tried hard enough. That would have cost the MTA tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars that it doesn't need to waste. Also, it would have been politically unpopular.

 

I don't remember the place I read it, but someone in a blog post somewhere made the point that most of those elected officials and community members who originally opposed it are now probably long gone. Unsure if the current populace would be okay with it, though.

[RR503]

I don't remember the place I read it, but someone in a blog post somewhere made the point that most of those elected officials and community members who originally opposed it are now probably long gone. Unsure if the current populace would be okay with it, though.

Throw a stop or two, and increase train turn capacity over Ditmars at the new terminal, and they should be a-ok. 

[Around the Horn]

Throw a stop or two, and increase train turn capacity over Ditmars at the new terminal, and they should be a-ok. 

 

Definitely. A stop in Steinway (well, technically a second stop in Steinway; Ditmars isn't actually in Astoria) and a stop in East Elmhurst.

[Italianstallion]

Definitely. A stop in Steinway (well, technically a second stop in Steinway; Ditmars isn't actually in Astoria) and a stop in East Elmhurst.

 

That's funny. I know the history of Astoria backwards and forwards. I know the historical Astoria is around Newtown Ave. and 21st St. That said, I grew up in what you would call Steinway, and no one there ever called it that. It was, and is, always called Astoria. Some call it the Ditmars area. Never Steinway.

[agar io]

Throw a stop or two, and increase train turn capacity over Ditmars at the new terminal, and they should be a-ok. 

 

I'd do Steinway St, Hazen St, LGA Terminal A, LGA Terminal B/C/D.

[Wallyhorse]

Building from LGA to JFK would be useful if the MTA and PANYNJ could work some agreement out where people can use the air train to move between the line's subway connection stations.

 

Otherwise, it's a useless waste of $$$.

Obviously, I meant LaGuardia in that post.  

 

And as said above, a Bronx branch of the SAS (that mainly recaptures what was lost when the 3rd Avenue EL was torn down in 1973) should be first priority.  

[Kamen Rider]

reasons why I think Willets Point isn't that bad an idea.

 

#1. the design is much more straight forward. no weaving around or under bridges. No avoiding the runway.

 

#2. Should the FAA ever change thier minds, it's a closer step towards an line between the two airports.

 

#3. Willets Point offers better regional connections. Sure, a quick ride to manhattan is great, but not everyone using the airport wants to go there. Extending the bus routes that terminate in downtown Flushing to a Willets point station gives you not only a two seat ride to the airport from as far away as Hicksville, but in can include an off street layover/terminal area, which means no me bus gridlock clogging up Main and Roosevelt.

 

#4. They have space to build the support facilities. A distinct Airtrain is going to need a shop and storage space. Sure, JFK had some room to spare, but LaGuardia doesn't. With Willets Point, there is plenty of room. Astoria, not so much. The IRT station is due for a renovation anyway, so integrating the new station would be even easier.

 

#5. If/When they ever get around to building anything next to Citi Field, your first stop in the city could be a destination in and of itself.

[Wallyhorse]

reasons why I think Willets Point isn't that bad an idea.

 

#1. the design is much more straight forward. no weaving around or under bridges. No avoiding the runway.

 

#2. Should the FAA ever change thier minds, it's a closer step towards an line between the two airports.

 

#3. Willets Point offers better regional connections. Sure, a quick ride to manhattan is great, but not everyone using the airport wants to go there. Extending the bus routes that terminate in downtown Flushing to a Willets point station gives you not only a two seat ride to the airport from as far away as Hicksville, but in can include an off street layover/terminal area, which means no me bus gridlock clogging up Main and Roosevelt.

 

#4. They have space to build the support facilities. A distinct Airtrain is going to need a shop and storage space. Sure, JFK had some room to spare, but LaGuardia doesn't. With Willets Point, there is plenty of room. Astoria, not so much. The IRT station is due for a renovation anyway, so integrating the new station would be even easier.

 

#5. If/When they ever get around to building anything next to Citi Field, your first stop in the city could be a destination in and of itself.

Not bad points, but I would still do it as subway and continue it to Randalls Island and then via a new branch of the SAS.  If they are going to build it anyway, tying it to the SAS and giving Randalls Island subway service as a bonus would work.

[RR503]

reasons why I think Willets Point isn't that bad an idea.

 

#1. the design is much more straight forward. no weaving around or under bridges. No avoiding the runway.

Actually, not quite. You'll have to build it through the GCP-Van Wyck-CIP interchange without getting in the way of planes flying the expressway arrival to 31. 

#2. Should the FAA ever change thier minds, it's a closer step towards an line between the two airports.

And since when is spending 3+billion on a line with a teensy market a good idea? BRT would be best. 

#3. Willets Point offers better regional connections. Sure, a quick ride to manhattan is great, but not everyone using the airport wants to go there. Extending the bus routes that terminate in downtown Flushing to a Willets point station gives you not only a two seat ride to the airport from as far away as Hicksville, but in can include an off street layover/terminal area, which means no me bus gridlock clogging up Main and Roosevelt.

Fair point, but remember that the VAST majority of users are going to Manhattan. Not giving them a quick and easy way to their destination will not take them off the roads, leaving us with basically status quo. Same problem with LI. FIrst off, most LI travelers use JFK because LGA is such $#!t. Secondly, making them transfer between LIRR trains with luggage (much more leisure/VFR traffic from LI, most business stuff is from the city) will not be popular. And lastly, there is the issue that, you know, it's a bit of a roundabout route. 

#4. They have space to build the support facilities. A distinct Airtrain is going to need a shop and storage space. Sure, JFK had some room to spare, but LaGuardia doesn't. With Willets Point, there is plenty of room. Astoria, not so much. The IRT station is due for a renovation anyway, so integrating the new station would be even easier.

You could squeeze it in between the airport and the neighborhoods to the west. 

#5. If/When they ever get around to building anything next to Citi Field, your first stop in the city could be a destination in and of itself.

Or your first stop could be close to midtown....

[Italianstallion]

I'd do Steinway St, Hazen St, LGA Terminal A, LGA Terminal B/C/D.

 

That's about right. I always wondered though where this new presumably elevated line would be routed once it got past Hazen St. Likely some NIMBY action there from the garden apartments nearby.

[BreeddekalbL]

can someone please tell me how prince andrew was able to strong arm the LIRR 3rd track yet he wont strong arm the to LGA?

[Around the Horn]

can someone please tell me how prince andrew was able to strong arm the LIRR 3rd track yet he wont strong arm the to LGA?

 

Simple, the 3rd track doesn't need the approval of the FAA.

[BreeddekalbL]

Simple, the 3rd track doesn't need the approval of the FAA.

 

i know that but the way i would have the N extension it would be going north of ditmars not via the GCP thats a stupid idea

[Around the Horn]

i know that but the way i would have the N extension it would be going north of ditmars not via the GCP thats a stupid idea

 

Even if you go via 20th Avenue, you still have to use that stretch of the GCP thats the issue...

[BreeddekalbL]

Even if you go via 20th Avenue, you still have to use that stretch of the GCP thats the issue...

 

I would go north to 31st then sink down into 19th into the MAT and runway drive follow under the Central Terminals

[collagedchen300]

That’s only good for editing and creating vectors. Screenshots of Google Maps needs to be aligned to the pixel when stitched.

 

I use vector maps and Adobe Illustrator.

Or, use Brand New Subway

http://brandnewsubway.com/

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gotham Bus Co.]

 

#3. Willets Point offers better regional connections. Sure, a quick ride to manhattan is great, but not everyone using the airport wants to go there. Extending the bus routes that terminate in downtown Flushing to a Willets point station gives you not only a two seat ride to the airport from as far away as Hicksville, but in can include an off street layover/terminal area, which means no me bus gridlock clogging up Main and Roosevelt.

 

 

Where would the off-street layover be? Remember that the whole Casey Stengel Depot property would be wiped away to make room for the AirTrain staton and maintenance shop.