BM5 via Woodhaven Posted February 10, 2017 Share #51 Posted February 10, 2017 Well, I guess people who work in Downtown Brooklyn and Downtown Manhattan can use the LIRR to the subways as if it was an express bus service (of those who live in the areas the Freedom Ticket covers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailRunRob Posted February 10, 2017 Share #52 Posted February 10, 2017 $4.75 sounds about right... As for some of the previous discussions I missed, I agree with the consensus that there should be a third service level between subway and commuter rail akin to London Overground. This should conceivably include Triboro RX... Indeed there's absolutely no reason we shouldn't be utilizing this infrastructure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 10, 2017 Share #53 Posted February 10, 2017 VG8 buddy pal I don't need a breakdown of where I'm from PS24 to PS81 I have over 50+ years of history up yonder figured we established that at this point. My point working /middle class starts just below $50k so these are people that can 100% afford the subway but are not using the Express Bus what's the ridership on lines that serve these area's QM21 X63, X64? There's no hardcut in income lines your missing a large middle segment. NYC's a bubble as well looking at the bigger picture if you make more than $30k that's more than 53% of Americans over $100K your in the top 7% more then 92% of your fellow countrymen. I think you need to recalibrate your perception of wealth and status you might be a bit out of touch.lol... You brought it up, so I'm elaborating on your point as an example. In any event, you can try to sell the "big picture" all you want. I don't see the deviating much from the proposed $6.50. Besides, they are not a charity and NYC is expensive. If people can't afford the higher fare, they have the subway or whatever other alternative they're currently using. Not that big of a deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 10, 2017 Share #54 Posted February 10, 2017 QM21, those express buses in Eastern Queens have low ridership and ridership that has been declining over the yearsThe QM21 just doesn't serve areas that can really afford the service. Ridership has tanked on that line mainly for that reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailRunRob Posted February 10, 2017 Share #55 Posted February 10, 2017 lol... You brought it up, so I'm elaborating on your point as an example. In any event, you can try to sell the "big picture" all you want. I don't see the deviating much from the proposed $6.50. Besides, they are not a charity and NYC is expensive. If people can't afford the higher fare, they have the subway or whatever other alternative they're currently using. Not that big of a deal. I don't have to sell anything if you don't understand the working class is the backbone of any economy you'll soon find out. charity huh? Id much rather see my money stay right here at home if that's case. As long as we've had to carry these other States that add nothing but talk? I'm a bit more concerned about that, to be honest. We have a larger GDP than some Countries 1.6 Trillion a year! Give me a break. You're giving what 200-300 K people $1.50 off with a better option to get to work pay taxes and spend money in our local economy. What are we not going to make this money back? I don't see the charity? And I have to tell you something that it must be the result of the individual's life choices and personal achievements and I did it so why can't they tone isn't going to get you far. Engineers, Civic planners, and Government it's their job to make sure things like Transit is available to the masses expansions and improvements included. Your taxes my taxes that's our fee to be here in this City and this Country it's not a privilege it's an honor we give back to what made us with that opportunity being readily available to the next person. Nothing more to be said especially if you're not employing folks and creating opportunities, innovating moving the world forward or looking for the cure to cancer. We need a lot more of that not the ole someone's taking from me. I mean geez just because I look like Bill Gates doesn't actually make me him. Less pessimism VG and more results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RtrainBlues Posted February 10, 2017 Share #56 Posted February 10, 2017 Instead of a flat $215, I'd make it $185 off-peak/$245 peak. You don't want to overwhelm the rush-hour PEAK direction Brooklyn LIRR trains as they're pretty full already pulling into Atlantic Terminal each morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 10, 2017 Share #57 Posted February 10, 2017 I don't have to sell anything if you don't understand the working class is the backbone of any economy you'll soon find out. charity huh? Id much rather see my money stay right here at home if that's case. As long as we've had to carry these other States that add nothing but talk? I'm a bit more concerned about that, to be honest. We have a larger GDP than some Countries 1.6 Trillion a year! Give me a break. You're giving what 200-300 K people $1.50 off with a better option to get to work pay taxes and spend money in our local economy. What are we not going to make this money back? I don't see the charity? And I have to tell you something that it must be the result of the individual's life choices and personal achievements and I did it so why can't they tone isn't going to get you far. Engineers, Civic planners, and Government it's their job to make sure things like Transit is available to the masses expansions and improvements included. Your taxes my taxes that's our fee to be here in this City and this Country it's not a privilege it's an honor we give back to what made us with that opportunity being readily available to the next person. Nothing more to be said especially if you're not employing folks and creating opportunities, innovating moving the world forward or looking for the cure to cancer. We need a lot more of that not the ole someone's taking from me. I mean geez just because I look like Bill Gates doesn't actually make me him. Less pessimism VG and more results. NYC has a history of going through phases, and we are in one right now with the latest real estate bubble. The people that can't afford the increases (not just increases, but rent/mortgage, property taxes and the like) will vote with their feet, as they have been for the last several years, hence the huge amount of transplants that we've seen. I'll use my residence as an example. We have new management that has come in with a force renovating any apartment they can get their hands on and trying to overcharge for each one. A studio for $1,700.00 regardless of the circumstances in Riverdale is a bit much when you can find one bedrooms starting at $1,600.00, so the question is what happens? Well the market corrects itself. If they don't get any takers, they'll lower the price. If the really wants to cater to the masses when it comes to its LIRR and MNRR services, they'll lower the price accordingly, but the issue is capacity. They've already stated that they have issues with a car shortage despite having empty seats on some trains. What I fear is them lowering the fare too much and eroding their core base trying to cater to people that truly have other alternatives. I also believe that we must look at the suburban riders in Westchester and Long Island. What do they get out of this deal? Will their fares be adjusted? I think this proposal is a reasonable one. It takes some riders off of the sardine can subway lines, but it doesn't overload capacity on LIRR and MNRR trains. Remember, not all trains have empty seats. I take plenty of MNRR trains where I have to stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailRunRob Posted February 11, 2017 Share #58 Posted February 11, 2017 NYC has a history of going through phases, and we are in one right now with the latest real estate bubble. The people that can't afford the increases (not just increases, but rent/mortgage, property taxes and the like) will vote with their feet, as they have been for the last several years, hence the huge amount of transplants that we've seen. I'll use my residence as an example. We have new management that has come in with a force renovating any apartment they can get their hands on and trying to overcharge for each one. A studio for $1,700.00 regardless of the circumstances in Riverdale is a bit much when you can find one bedrooms starting at $1,600.00, so the question is what happens? Well the market corrects itself. If they don't get any takers, they'll lower the price. If the really wants to cater to the masses when it comes to its LIRR and MNRR services, they'll lower the price accordingly, but the issue is capacity. They've already stated that they have issues with a car shortage despite having empty seats on some trains. What I fear is them lowering the fare too much and eroding their core base trying to cater to people that truly have other alternatives. I also believe that we must look at the suburban riders in Westchester and Long Island. What do they get out of this deal? Will their fares be adjusted? I think this proposal is a reasonable one. It takes some riders off of the sardine can subway lines, but it doesn't overload capacity on LIRR and MNRR trains. Remember, not all trains have empty seats. I take plenty of MNRR trains where I have to stand. There's still an underlying issue if people are voting with their feet and having to move from a Riverdale to a Poughkeepsie the MTA still has to handle extra weight on some other parts of their system. The region is all interconnected and transportation shouldn't account for 25-30% of someone's salary/income. A bucket of water no matter how many cups you spilt it across the sum is still the same. Commuters in the City become commuters in outlying areas. Subway to Commuter Trains to Cars to Buses Tolls, Tickets and Gas all one in the same. This issue is going to have to be solved at some point whether you like it or even understand it. When you have the NYPD starting officers at $40-50k with all the conditions your hinting to there's going to be issues with so many others in this same predicament. If we're all going to play the laissez-faire game I doubt you'd last long my friend keep in mind you have a ceiling as well. Get them rents up to $4K-$5K a month ole VG will be up in Poughkeepsie as well. Back to the trains, we know this is a test we know these trains are half full we know people in these areas have a lack options transit wise. We'll see how it go's. Several people have stated ideas based on better optimizing service around LIRR and MN infrastructure without affecting service. A separate operation in fact. The funny thing ironically is not expanding affordable transport in our City might actually affect suburban commuters the priced out folks have to go somewhere while tethered to jobs. Affordable transit options are a must. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotham Bus Co. Posted February 11, 2017 Share #59 Posted February 11, 2017 The Freedom Ticket fare is going to be $6.50. Monthlies will be $215. So a monthly Freedom Ticket will cost $3 less than the current monthly LIRR Zone 3 ticket? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 11, 2017 Share #60 Posted February 11, 2017 There's still an underlying issue if people are voting with their feet and having to move from a Riverdale to a Poughkeepsie the MTA still has to handle extra weight on some other parts of their system. The region is all interconnected and transportation shouldn't account for 25-30% of someone's salary/income. A bucket of water no matter how many cups you spilt it across the sum is still the same. Commuters in the City become commuters in outlying areas. Subway to Commuter Trains to Cars to Buses Tolls, Tickets and Gas all one in the same. This issue is going to have to be solved at some point whether you like it or even understand it. When you have the NYPD starting officers at $40-50k with all the conditions your hinting to there's going to be issues with so many others in this same predicament. If we're all going to play the laissez-faire game I doubt you'd last long my friend keep in mind you have a ceiling as well. Get them rents up to $4K-$5K a month ole VG will be up in Poughkeepsie as well. Back to the trains, we know this is a test we know these trains are half full we know people in these areas have a lack options transit wise. We'll see how it go's. Several people have stated ideas based on better optimizing service around LIRR and MN infrastructure without affecting service. A separate operation in fact. The funny thing ironically is not expanding affordable transport in our City might actually affect suburban commuters the priced out folks have to go somewhere while tethered to jobs. Affordable transit options are a must.lol... We all have a ceiling. At $4-5k a month, I think many people would be pushed out. My girlfriend and I could still stay with our salaries and what we each pay now for our apartments, but yeah, I get it. Many New Yorkers don't have a household over 150k. That's exactly why the market is correcting itself as far as rents go. Ultimately though you'll pay one way or another. Either more in living expenses or more in transportation. When I compare my living and transportation expenses to my girlfriend's it's almost the same. Living in the city she spends somewhat less in transportation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailRunRob Posted February 12, 2017 Share #61 Posted February 12, 2017 lol... We all have a ceiling. At $4-5k a month, I think many people would be pushed out. My girlfriend and I could still stay with our salaries and what we each pay now for our apartments, but yeah, I get it. Many New Yorkers don't have a household over 150k. That's exactly why the market is correcting itself as far as rents go. Ultimately though you'll pay one way or another. Either more in living expenses or more in transportation. When I compare my living and transportation expenses to my girlfriend's it's almost the same. Living in the city she spends somewhat less in transportation. Can't always wait for markets to correct themselves it's an imperfect system a man-made system, Volker, and Greenspan I think would agree. One way or the another is a bad place to be. Sometimes to break a stymie you have to introduce incentives. Incentives to shop here or to move there. Growth is important to a region after all. Transport as always been an incentive to NYC. I feel it needs to continue to be. Again we can't always base the world on our personal experiences or POV's. How can you be competitive at a game of chess if you don't understand or know all your options and pieces? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 12, 2017 Share #62 Posted February 12, 2017 Can't always wait for markets to correct themselves it's an imperfect system a man-made system, Volker, and Greenspan I think would agree. One way or the another is a bad place to be. Sometimes to break a stymie you have to introduce incentives. Incentives to shop here or to move there. Growth is important to a region after all. Transport as always been an incentive to NYC. I feel it needs to continue to be. Again we can't always base the world on our personal experiences or POV's. How can you be competitive at a game of chess if you don't understand or know all your options and pieces? You're right, sometimes intervention is needed, but the markets are already correcting themselves. We're seeing concessions left and right regarding landlords lowering prices. Additionally, the decided to keep the fare as is, fearing that some hikes would be too much. It's no secret that many New Yorkers haven't seen their salaries increase, yet living costs have skyrocketed. Furthermore, the median household income is only around $60k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailRunRob Posted February 12, 2017 Share #63 Posted February 12, 2017 You're right, sometimes intervention is needed, but the markets are already correcting themselves. We're seeing concessions left and right regarding landlords lowering prices. Additionally, the decided to keep the fare as is, fearing that some hikes would be too much. It's no secret that many New Yorkers haven't seen their salaries increase, yet living costs have skyrocketed. Furthermore, the median household income is only around $60k. The lower rents haven't made it to my neck of the woods yet we'll see. The MTA may not have raised the base fare but there playing with the margins. There getting that on the high end with the weekly, monthly and bonuses. The number shuffle. Your correct salaries in certain markets have been stagnant. Living cost has gone up but there are so many other things interconnected to that. Supply and demand with house stock, Population, resources. The FED with interest rates and inflation it's a complicated web. NYC's median is closer to 50K from what I understand. All the reason to optimize what you have and keep things moving on the Civic and State levels. We have to buffer ourselves for what may come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 12, 2017 Share #64 Posted February 12, 2017 The lower rents haven't made it to my neck of the woods yet we'll see. The MTA may not have raised the base fare but there playing with the margins. There getting that on the high end with the weekly, monthly and bonuses. The number shuffle. Your correct salaries in certain markets have been stagnant. Living cost has gone up but there are so many other things interconnected to that. Supply and demand with house stock, Population, resources. The FED with interest rates and inflation it's a complicated web. NYC's median is closer to 50K from what I understand. All the reason to optimize what you have and keep things moving on the Civic and State levels. We have to buffer ourselves for what may come. It's happening. Just look at the prices. Not going down a ton but they're going down. I was speaking with my super about another property and he told me that management would be willing to take a lower price than what they are asking, and that's a gut renovated apartment (new kitchen and bathroom with high-end finishes). Other places are reducing prices or offering other concessions like one month's free rent. It's definitely happening in Manhattan and here in Riverdale. At some point Brooklyn will cool off too. Too much supply (new supply) coming onto the market. Back to this Freedom Ticket... I don't understand the idea of having two different tickets. It should be one price and call it a day. Take it or leave it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR503 Posted February 13, 2017 Share #65 Posted February 13, 2017 The whole idea is that it is one ticket. $215 gets you subway, bus, LIRR, MNR. Also, how is it that so many threads become tangential economics arguments? I'm all for discussion, but can we keep to topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 13, 2017 Share #66 Posted February 13, 2017 The whole idea is that it is one ticket. $215 gets you subway, bus, LIRR, MNR. Also, how is it that so many threads become tangential economics arguments? I'm all for discussion, but can we keep to topic? I don't know how you can't bring economics into the discussion when this proposal became about precisely because of economic factors in the first place. Maybe you can explain that to me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR503 Posted February 14, 2017 Share #67 Posted February 14, 2017 I actually don't think this has much to do with economics. While it may be cheaper for commuters, it has a lot more to do with utilising existing assets better, and reducing commute times. If you go to the PCAC website, you'll see that their presentations tout time savings, not monetary ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 14, 2017 Share #68 Posted February 14, 2017 I actually don't think this has much to do with economics. While it may be cheaper for commuters, it has a lot more to do with utilising existing assets better, and reducing commute times. If you go to the PCAC website, you'll see that their presentations tout time savings, not monetary ones.You clearly haven't been paying attention then because the cost of the commuter trains and the economics of the neighborhoods that the trains go through was one of the main things discussed from the very start. "Take, for example, East New York, which has a high concentration of poverty. Residents there have options, one of them being the L train for the lengthy commute to Manhattan. And when more people start moving to the taller towers Mayor Bill de Blasio is planning for East New York, the trip will only become worse, and that's even if the L train were running normally. Commuters could instead take the LIRR to Atlantic Terminal and transfer to the subway. The problem is, the railroad is kind of expensive. It takes only 10 minutes on LIRR to travel from the East New York station to Atlantic Terminal [in Brooklyn], however a peak hour ticket is $8.25,” noted a recent report from the New York City Transit Riders Council. “On the other hand, it takes 26 minutes via subway from Broadway Junction to Atlantic Terminal, but the ticket is only $2.75.” Many choose the latter option." Source: http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/albany/story/2016/01/officials-suggest-a-tweak-to-ease-brooklyns-coming-transit-nightmare-000000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY1635 Posted February 14, 2017 Share #69 Posted February 14, 2017 1. Where is the money for the Freedom Ticket coming from? 2. Won't Long Island eventually want the Freedom Ticket too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR503 Posted February 14, 2017 Share #70 Posted February 14, 2017 Fair point, but I still think that the proposal has more to do with commute times than $$$. By adding ridership, the program should pay for itself. IIRC ~3000 riders is break even. However, I also remember mention of city funding, so I'm not 100% sure. Yes, and if they want cheaper fares, their county gov'ts can subsidize tickets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailRunRob Posted February 14, 2017 Share #71 Posted February 14, 2017 Fair point, but I still think that the proposal has more to do with commute times than $$$. By adding ridership, the program should pay for itself. IIRC ~3000 riders is break even. However, I also remember mention of city funding, so I'm not 100% sure. Yes, and if they want cheaper fares, their county gov'ts can subsidize tickets. You have a point here as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 14, 2017 Share #72 Posted February 14, 2017 What I find troubling is why will it take so long to implement? 2019 is two years away... Ok, so sure, you need to run a pilot study and figure out how to subsidize such an arrangement, but still. Given how long it has taken for this to start up, I would've thought that the city had already identified a funding source? I think the is looking for something like 70 million year (roughly). Whatever the number is, if the city is so eager to get this up and running, then they should be more aggressive with the implementation of it. Since you aren't opening this up to the masses from a cost standpoint, the only thing that I could see is that perhaps some trains will be too crowded, and you need additional time to provide more rolling stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted February 14, 2017 Share #73 Posted February 14, 2017 What I find troubling is why will it take so long to implement? 2019 is two years away... Ok, so sure, you need to run a pilot study and figure out how to subsidize such an arrangement, but still. Given how long it has taken for this to start up, I would've thought that the city had already identified a funding source? I think the is looking for something like 70 million year (roughly). Whatever the number is, if the city is so eager to get this up and running, then they should be more aggressive with the implementation of it. Since you aren't opening this up to the masses from a cost standpoint, the only thing that I could see is that perhaps some trains will be too crowded, and you need additional time to provide more rolling stock. It has to be implemented by LIRR. Expect nothing to be done promptly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted February 14, 2017 Share #74 Posted February 14, 2017 It has to be implemented by LIRR. Expect nothing to be done promptly. lol... And MNRR also, but the MNRR is much more proactive when it comes to being customer friendly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted February 14, 2017 Share #75 Posted February 14, 2017 lol... And MNRR also, but the MNRR is much more proactive when it comes to being customer friendly. LIRR, in general, is an institution with a one-track mind: get people to Midtown, doing it the way we always have. You see this in action when service disruptions happen; even though the LIRR has no shortage of terminals to choose from (Hunterspoint Av, Atlantic, LIC, etc.), they will just cancel trains instead of trying to send them to another terminal. It's why they're de-facto abandoning the Atlantic Branch once East Side Access opens, even though ridership to Atlantic Terminal has been rising at a rapid clip over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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