MTA Subway Ridership dropped in 2016: First Decline since 2009

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I love how a ridership thread became a homelessness thread.  Not like I don't think it's a problem, but even if it weren't, I'm sure VG8 would find something else to complain about.

 

Back to the issue of ridership.  The way the media framed this story (not surprisingly) is misleading, because weekday ridership increased, while as people mentioned already, off-peak ridership is down primarily because of non-stop construction work.  It seems that much of this work is still damage control from problems created last generation.  But the fast that ridership is down oh-so-slightly means nothing.  2016's ridership is still higher than 2014 and before.  And with SAS finally online (even if only three stations), I think it's safe to say 2017 could be another record setter.

So in other words the rise of homeless people riding on the subway has nothing to do with the decrease in ridership.  Is that what you're saying?     How do you know that off-peak ridership is down primarily because of construction work?  As for my "complaining", I've been pointing out things that several others have mentioned as well, so spare me with your rhetoric.

 

There is no evidence of that. Very little affordable housing has even been built yet under DeB. And logically, how can people coming here to take advantage of affordable housing - if that is happening - increase the homeless population?

I didn't say that.  What I said was New York has a generous housing policy. You're confusing the two things.  NYC has a law on the books that says that you have a right to shelter if you're homeless, so yes people are likely coming here to take advantage of our housing policies.

 

Source: http://www.coalitionforthehomeless.org/our-programs/advocacy/legal-victories/the-callahan-legacy-callahan-v-carey-and-the-legal-right-to-shelter/

 

THIS. 

 

When I dormed last year, I took plenty of late night fan trips. The subway shouldn't be running every 15-20 minutes late at night. The were the worst when it came to this. I remember one night last May, I had gone out looking for the new XD60s in Queens (I thought they would bring them out that night) and it took me almost an hour and a half to get back to my dorm. I was waiting at Roosevelt Ave for what seemed like 45 minutes for the . 

 

I get that ridership at night isn't as high as it is during the day, but if they're gonna run local service at night, they need to at least try to run more trains. On the bus side, some, if not many routes need midday level service late at night. Some examples are the Bx36, Q114, and others. 

 

I think what needs to be seen here is that folks are using the system late at night. Be it they work late into the night, people going/coming to/from parties, emergencies, or even folks like me who were having insomnia problems (which was why I was out at night in the first place). It helps to have a little bit more service late nights. I'm not saying lines like the have to run Express like they do in the daytime, but running some more TPH can't hurt. Even if its only 1 or 2 extra. 

That's something that I've been saying, which is that the has touting their cost savings over the last few years and those savings have to come from somewhere and likely through service cuts/reductions (officially or unofficially), but somehow I've been deemed crazy for thinking such things. 

[SubwayGuy]

I completely sympathize with the homeless problem.  I once saw a man literally assaulted in Midtown as he was just trying to get a little sleep.  The guy who assaulted him I suppose thought he was an easy target to rob.  What we need is more outreach.  I occasionally see folks working in teams in Grand Central trying to encourage the homeless people to go to a shelter, but from what I hear those are even worse. Nevertheless if we had that in addition to a stringent policy telling people NOT to give we could perhaps see a decrease in the homeless population and the panhandling in general, but it seems as if people enjoy giving these "performers" money.  

 

Aside from that, the has done their best to NOT run decent service past a certain time of night.  If you need to take a bus after getting off of the subway, you're likely going to be a waiting a while IF the bus is even running, so often times it just makes sense to catch a cab.  It's safe, quick and is far less aggravation, but either way you slice it, the has contributed to creating the current environment in terms of the decline in ridership.  They could certainly do more if they wanted to, but I don't get the sense that they're interested in improving the subway anymore than the bare minimum.

 

Exactly. And that's why you need to have police in the shelters to protect the innocent homeless from the truly mentally ill and violent.

 

You can't force people into shelters if shelters or not safe. Solution: Make the shelters safe. Then you can force rules violators to go there, and if they're safe, they'll learn to trust them, and might actually use them for their intended purpose and try and build back their lives. If nothing else, it gets them off the streets which reduces the risks they are targeted for crimes by young thugs and pranksters.

 

As for your second point, cab rides out of downtown aren't significantly faster. It's almost always a long wait to find one that's free, and then you've got everyone else riding uptown too so there is lots of traffic and oftentimes road construction too.

 

The ridership decrease was primarily on weekends - a lot of that is frustration with service changes because no viable subway alternative exists for line closures. Take someone on the 1 that needs to go downtown. They get a shuttle bus. So if they aren't going that far (say from 242 to 225), they never have to pay a fare for their weekend "subway" ride.

[SubwayGuy]

Re: overnight service - in addition to the vagrancy / sanitary / crime concerns, service levels overnight are the same as they've been. Every 20 minutes, then Manhattan trunk lines see roughly double that (every 10) as all services run local, and there are generally two on each corridor.

 

The D and F should run local overnight, this is a simple improvement that would increase service.

 

The reliability, however, is the issue. The wait can balloon to close to 40 minutes in some cases, and the trips can take excessively long once the train arrives. It is very hard to get to work on time if you have to take the trains between 12:30AM and 4:30AM, unless you live on an elevated line. Many of these people choose to drive or take cabs instead.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Re: overnight service - in addition to the vagrancy / sanitary / crime concerns, service levels overnight are the same as they've been. Every 20 minutes, then Manhattan trunk lines see roughly double that (every 10) as all services run local, and there are generally two on each corridor.

 

The D and F should run local overnight, this is a simple improvement that would increase service.

 

The reliability, however, is the issue. The wait can balloon to close to 40 minutes in some cases, and the trips can take excessively long once the train arrives. It is very hard to get to work on time if you have to take the trains between 12:30AM and 4:30AM, unless you live on an elevated line. Many of these people choose to drive or take cabs instead.

That's what I don't understand... If you're traveling that late with such spacing in between trains, why so many delays in service?

[Fresh Pond]

That's what I don't understand... If you're traveling that late with such spacing in between trains, why so many delays in service?

Late night construction

[mfs NJT459]

more people switching to Uber / Lyft and other ride sharing apps?

[bobtehpanda]

It's definitely a factor. Keep in mind though that Uber subsidizes something like more than half of the ride's cost.

[checkmatechamp13]

As for the service itself, the loading guidelines have ZERO wiggle room even on a good day. Since about 2010, subways (and maybe buses too, not sure) are basically *required* to go 25% over seated capacity on most trips. A subway car that seats 50 is supposed to have 62 riders per car and a 40 seat bus would have to have 50 riders onboard. Then they fall behind schedule, or a day camp group can board your train and well... you know the rest.

 

Bus loading guidelines are still at 100%. From what I heard, they used to be 80% but they changed them sometime before 2010 (they didn't change them in 2010 like they did with the subways).

 

The thing is that there's a minimum headway that they have to schedule trains for (10 minutes). For buses, it's every 30 minutes. So on lower-ridership lines, buses run at the minimum headway, not one based on crowding. (Also, for buses, the guidelines become a little bit more generous as frequencies go down). 

[SubwayGuy]

That's what I don't understand... If you're traveling that late with such spacing in between trains, why so many delays in service?

 

Flagging setups (especially in river tubes), track construction that requires holding trains, garbage train and work train moves that delay service, and honestly, some of the stupidest things happen in the subway overnight that cause police investigations, etc. because of moronic behavior. Then, when the train arrives at the terminal just in time for its scheduled departure, it can be expected to be delayed by such wonderful NYC specific reasons as Homeless Outreach or the NYPD awaking sleeping passengers to determine whether or not they're homeless, or a delay while a car has to be cleaned of the vomit of drunks (which takes a while to do properly).

 

The fact that despite all of this, ridership is still UP on weekdays shows where the trend is. This is more just people's frustrations about weekend and overnight service in general.

 

Uber has flourished because of marketing. For app based car services, Lyft is much better, and treats their employees better which leads to them providing a better service and being less rushed to make trips as fast as possible to do more and make more money. That was the flaw with the old school non-yellow cab model, and it's the flaw with Uber. It's sheer laziness though. Most people would rather use an app and be told the car is coming in 15 minutes, than go outside and street hail, and probably wait 5 minutes.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

Bus loading guidelines are still at 100%. From what I heard, they used to be 80% but they changed them sometime before 2010 (they didn't change them in 2010 like they did with the subways).

 

The thing is that there's a minimum headway that they have to schedule trains for (10 minutes). For buses, it's every 30 minutes. So on lower-ridership lines, buses run at the minimum headway, not one based on crowding. (Also, for buses, the guidelines become a little bit more generous as frequencies go down). 

Subway loading guidelines should definitely be re-assessed for off peak hours. The problem I have with bus loading guidelines is that they set a rather hard ceiling on the amount of service that gets offered to the mid and high ridership routes. For example, artic routes that run at 5 minutes or better are expected to hold 85 passengers per bus during rush hour. As we move towards low floor artics dominating the artic routes (quite a few are exclusively low floor already) 85 per bus is an uncomfortable loading standard given the layout of those things. Not just that in order to meet that standard or be close enough to it to for the MTA to increase service A LOT of people have to be riding through a given route's peak load point. Such is not really happening these days given the trends in bus usage.  In order for a route to achieve 100% capacity at peak artic guideline loads 1,020 passengers an hour have to pass the peak load point during rush hour. Where in this city is that happening outside of the obvious big league routes? All this means is if a route has artics running on it forget the prospect of decent headways during rush hour and the MTA wants more routes to have artics on them so go figure.

[SubwayGuy]

Subway loading guidelines should definitely be re-assessed for off peak hours. The problem I have with bus loading guidelines is that they set a rather hard ceiling on the amount of service that gets offered to the mid and high ridership routes. For example, artic routes that run at 5 minutes or better are expected to hold 85 passengers per bus during rush hour. As we move towards low floor artics dominating the artic routes (quite a few are exclusively low floor already) 85 per bus is an uncomfortable loading standard given the layout of those things. Not just that in order to meet that standard or be close enough to it to for the MTA to increase service A LOT of people have to be riding through a given route's peak load point. Such is not really happening these days given the trends in bus usage.  In order for a route to achieve 100% capacity at peak artic guideline loads 1,020 passengers an hour have to pass the peak load point during rush hour. Where in this city is that happening outside of the obvious big league routes? All this means is if a route has artics running on it forget the prospect of decent headways during rush hour and the MTA wants more routes to have artics on them so go figure.

 

Because it's a cost cutting measure. Two buses = two drivers, more frequent maintenance, higher fuel costs, but better service. one bigger bus = same amount of capacity but with half the labor cost, and only slightly more than half the maintenance and fuel costs, but providing inferior service.

 

Bus headways have only grown over the years.

[JayJay85]

I would consider myself a NIMBY and I don't care about the upgrades.  That's for the to worry about and plan around.  I would not just allow them to come in and destroy a community because they need to make upgrades.  That's a lame excuse.  They have a poor track record when it comes to them being transparent about what needs to be done and how communities will be inconvenienced.  Just look at the mess with the line on weekends along the Dyre Avenue branch where service is knocked out almost every weekend in an area with limited alternatives all in the name of upgrades.  It happens because the community allows it to.  Not too long ago in my neighborhood we had some sorely needed work done on the Henry Hudson Parkway pedestrian bridge and we had very little info about what was going on and for how long.  I immediately wrote my representatives to express my concerns about the project and to understand what was being done and why, and the ramifications of such work. 

 

That's how it should be, otherwise you have a mess.  

Look at the 8 BMT Culver stations that being redone NYCT mislead the community about how long the project will last on southbound platforms, That Contractor is 3 1/2 months late of completing the project on southbound platforms it's crazy. They told Them 6 months of work from June 2016 to Jan 2017.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Look at the 8 BMT Culver stations that being redone NYCT mislead the community about how long the project will last on southbound platforms, That Contractor is 3 1/2 months late of completing the project on southbound platforms it's crazy. They told Them 6 months of work from June 2016 to Jan 2017.

As far as the renovations go, I must say I'm not only disappointed but annoyed at how high the costs are and how crappy the work is. I worked for a GC previously, and as someone who used to be in the field, I know that the quality is just shoddy.  Lack of supervision and poor materials are to blame.  When you look at the amount of inconvenience passengers go through and how quickly these renovated stations deteriorate, you have to wonder how things continue to go on as they have without any major changes.  I've said it before, but I favor full shutdowns rather than this piecemeal crap.  They do that in Europe, and the stations look much better and hold up longer.  

 

I also think that the deceives communities by not delivering on full station renovations.  A few stations on the line come to mind (231st and 238th).  

 

Flagging setups (especially in river tubes), track construction that requires holding trains, garbage train and work train moves that delay service, and honestly, some of the stupidest things happen in the subway overnight that cause police investigations, etc. because of moronic behavior. Then, when the train arrives at the terminal just in time for its scheduled departure, it can be expected to be delayed by such wonderful NYC specific reasons as Homeless Outreach or the NYPD awaking sleeping passengers to determine whether or not they're homeless, or a delay while a car has to be cleaned of the vomit of drunks (which takes a while to do properly).

 

The fact that despite all of this, ridership is still UP on weekdays shows where the trend is. This is more just people's frustrations about weekend and overnight service in general.

 

Uber has flourished because of marketing. For app based car services, Lyft is much better, and treats their employees better which leads to them providing a better service and being less rushed to make trips as fast as possible to do more and make more money. That was the flaw with the old school non-yellow cab model, and it's the flaw with Uber. It's sheer laziness though. Most people would rather use an app and be told the car is coming in 15 minutes, than go outside and street hail, and probably wait 5 minutes.

I would argue that companies like Lyft and Uber just make life A LOT easier. I don't like my cards being stored which is why I'm not into Uber or Lyft, but I understand why they're popular.  I've had numerous instances where I've had meetings that go late into the evening and then walk out Downtown somewhere and there are no cabs in sight.  I have to then walk several blocks to a "hub" to find one, often times carrying things with me, which is a PITA.  Even with the billing set up, I may consider ditching taxis and going with Uber or Lyft.  I have used Uber before and was very pleased.  The cars are spotless, drivers are pleasant, and get you to your destination quickly.  With taxis they want cash for obvious reasons, and if you want to pay with a card you should be able to.  I can remember a few instances where I didn't have cash on me and the driver would hound me for cash, trying to act as if the card machine was broken.  

 

I would say that my generation (millennials) along with the next generation coming up, we do care about things like cleanliness.  There are some that say well hey the subway is still a good deal, but when you think about the aggravation you put up with, you have to question that.  Packed subway cars, homeless people all over, constantly getting hassled for money and all sorts of deranged people lurking on the platforms.  I constantly have to look around for any nut jobs whenever I do use the subway these days because there always seems to be one around.  On the other hand you can just have a cab come and get you where you need it without any of that.  The only reason subway ridership is up during the rush is because traffic is simply horrible and the subway with all of its faults is still the best way to get around, but even with that, you have some people biting the bullet.  If you don't have to be anywhere quickly, taking Uber to go home is wayyy better than the subway.  You factor in the extra travel time and call it a day.

[JayJay85]

As far as the renovations go, I must say I'm not only disappointed but annoyed at how high the costs are and how crappy the work is. I worked for a GC previously, and as someone who used to be in the field, I know that the quality is just shoddy.  Lack of supervision and poor materials are to blame.  When you look at the amount of inconvenience passengers go through and how quickly these renovated stations deteriorate, you have to wonder how things continue to go on as they have without any major changes.  I've said it before, but I favor full shutdowns rather than this piecemeal crap.  They do that in Europe, and the stations look much better and hold up longer.  

 

I also think that the deceives communities by not delivering on full station renovations.  A few stations on the line come to mind (231st and 238th).  

 

I would argue that companies like Lyft and Uber just make life A LOT easier. I don't like my cards being stored which is why I'm not into Uber or Lyft, but I understand why they're popular.  I've had numerous instances where I've had meetings that go late into the evening and then walk out Downtown somewhere and there are no cabs in sight.  I have to then walk several blocks to a "hub" to find one, often times carrying things with me, which is a PITA.  Even with the billing set up, I may consider ditching taxis and going with Uber or Lyft.  I have used Uber before and was very pleased.  The cars are spotless, drivers are pleasant, and get you to your destination quickly.  With taxis they want cash for obvious reasons, and if you want to pay with a card you should be able to.  I can remember a few instances where I didn't have cash on me and the driver would hound me for cash, trying to act as if the card machine was broken.  

 

I would say that my generation (millennials) along with the next generation coming up, we do care about things like cleanliness.  There are some that say well hey the subway is still a good deal, but when you think about the aggravation you put up with, you have to question that.  Packed subway cars, homeless people all over, constantly getting hassled for money and all sorts of deranged people lurking on the platforms.  I constantly have to look around for any nut jobs whenever I do use the subway these days because there always seems to be one around.  On the other hand you can just have a cab come and get you where you need it without any of that.  The only reason subway ridership is up during the rush is because traffic is simply horrible and the subway with all of its faults is still the best way to get around, but even with that, you have some people biting the bullet.  If you don't have to be anywhere quickly, taking Uber to go home is wayyy better than the subway.  You factor in the extra travel time and call it a day.

I also notice the contractor (Yonkers Contactor Company) who did the Line from Pelham Bay to Castle Hill Avenue did a good on renovations, they was on time and work was good and NYCT was pleased with the work done on .

NYCT screw up with Culver line stations renewal contract, what MTA-NYCT should have done is split the contract between two contractors instead of having just one do the whole work, like have one contractor work on 5 stations and the other contractor on 4 stations this way the project would have been much smoother.

[46Dover]

Giuliani was the one with the harder stance. Bloomberg overall didn't give a damn until it started occurring in the toniest parts of the city. When you started seeing homeless folks on 5th, Madison and Park, that's when you knew the problem was out of control, and slowly they started moving those people off of the streets. De Blasio has added to the problem with his "affordable housing" agenda. You have people coming here simply because of the generous housing policies of NYC.

My beloved Port Authority Bus Terminal has become Arkham Asylum with the homeless smh

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I also notice the contractor (Yonkers Contactor Company) who did the Line from Pelham Bay to Castle Hill Avenue did a good on renovations, they was on time and work was good and NYCT was pleased with the work done on .

NYCT screw up with Culver line stations renewal contract, what MTA-NYCT should have done is split the contract between two contractors instead of having just one do the whole work, like have one contractor work on 5 stations and the other contractor on 4 stations this way the project would have been much smoother.

They did actually do a good job. Only problem is those stations along the line never see a boom or get powerwashed.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

My beloved Port Authority Bus Terminal has become Arkham Asylum with the homeless smh

Well they've been a problem for years. Don't even think about using the bathrooms. They live in them. Will be interesting to see what they do when they start renovating that place. I actually started getting my express bus tickets from the machines upstairs to avoid being hassled for cash downstairs. One reason I don't go out to Nordstrom and Neiman Marcus out at the GSP as much as I used to. You notice how aggressive the NYPD has been with keeping vagrants away from the new SAS stations. I'm sure that is helping attract riders from the Lex...

[Around the Horn]

Well they've been a problem for years. Don't even think about using the bathrooms. They live in them. Will be interesting to see what they do when they start renovating that place. I actually started getting my express bus tickets from the machines upstairs to avoid being hassled for cash downstairs. One reason I don't go out to Nordstrom and Neiman Marcus out at the GSP as much as I used to. You notice how aggressive the NYPD has been with keeping vagrants away from the new SAS stations. I'm sure that is helping attract riders from the Lex...

 

The bathrooms are actually pretty nice now. Maybe they renovated them already...

 

Not that many homeless people in that lower concourse but it was also the PM rush hour.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The bathrooms are actually pretty nice now. Maybe they renovated them already...

 

Not that many homeless people in that lower concourse but it was also the PM rush hour.

Interesting.  I haven't been there in a while, but last I was there, the place looked like it had seen better days.  Maybe I'll take a trip out there later this year (via NJT) when the weather is nicer. I do recall a nice bar on the upper level that some buddies of mine visited years ago earlllyyy in the morning on our way to a metal concert Slayer was headlining... Long story... 

[bobtehpanda]

Port Authority is a textbook example of hostile modernist architecture that is barely functional and attractive to only the homeless. At least Penn is not so overrun.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Port Authority is a textbook example of hostile modernist architecture that is barely functional and attractive to only the homeless. At least Penn is not so overrun.

You mean not overrun with the homeless? Please.  Unless they cleaned up Penn Station, that was another hellhole.  I can recall coming from dinners or meetings on Long Island and taking the LIRR to get the subway back to my office and seeing homeless folks (especially the subway area).  They're just out laying all over the place.  They need to put in some sort of ticket requirement and have it timed to keep those people out.  Places like that I wouldn't even sit in because God knows who has been there before.  Not only does it deter usage of the subways, but it hurts the businesses as well.  No one wants to eat with the stench of homeless people.  

 

Years ago a former colleague of mine and I would sometimes have lunch in Grand Central (Dining Concourse), and you'd have homeless folks walking around picking out of the garbage.  Lovely sight when you're trying to eat. I haven't eaten there in a while either, not even take out.

[JayJay85]

They did actually do a good job. Only problem is those stations along the line never see a boom or get powerwashed.

Lets hope when the contractor finish the stations they did a good job on it, i got a question what other elevated line stations rehabilitation the done descent job or did a chappy job.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Lets hope when the contractor finish the stations they did a good job on it, i got a question what other elevated line stations rehabilitation the done descent job or did a chappy job.

Well the elevated stations that were recently done in Brooklyn look "ok", though they should look better IMO, but by standards they're okay.  Some of the stations were also re-done in Brooklyn, but they have a no frills look, so when they start going downhill, they'll likely look even worse.  I remember when De Kalb Avenue was re-done... Station could use another rehab...

[P3F]

Well the elevated stations that were recently done in Brooklyn look "ok", though they should look better IMO, but by standards they're okay.  Some of the stations were also re-done in Brooklyn, but they have a no frills look, so when they start going downhill, they'll likely look even worse.  I remember when De Kalb Avenue was re-done... Station could use another rehab...

West 8th Street looks awful now, despite being renovated in 2002-3. Although maybe that's just a result of the harsh salty ocean air...

You mean not overrun with the homeless? Please.  Unless they cleaned up Penn Station, that was another hellhole.  I can recall coming from dinners or meetings on Long Island and taking the LIRR to get the subway back to my office and seeing homeless folks (especially the subway area).  They're just out laying all over the place.  They need to put in some sort of ticket requirement and have it timed to keep those people out.  Places like that I wouldn't even sit in because God knows who has been there before.  Not only does it deter usage of the subways, but it hurts the businesses as well.  No one wants to eat with the stench of homeless people.  

 

Years ago a former colleague of mine and I would sometimes have lunch in Grand Central (Dining Concourse), and you'd have homeless folks walking around picking out of the garbage.  Lovely sight when you're trying to eat. I haven't eaten there in a while either, not even take out.

In addition, Fulton Center has too many homeless people who seem like they live there. If the NYPD can put in the energy to keep SAS vagrant-free, they should do the same for Fulton Center.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

West 8th Street looks awful now, despite being renovated in 2002-3. Although maybe that's just a result of the harsh salty ocean air...

In addition, Fulton Center has too many homeless people who seem like they live there. If the NYPD can put in the energy to keep SAS vagrant-free, they should do the same for Fulton Center.

Vagrants in Fulton Center? I'm not down there often but the times I've been there I haven't seen any, including on weekends. I'll have a look when I'm down there next week since I have a few clients to meet in the area.

 

Agreed on West 8th street.  Coney Island could look better as well.  That's the thing.  Once they rehab the stations, there doesn't seem to be any monies set aside to keep them up so there's this cycle of having to spend a mini fortune just for them to look half decent again.  The so-called "station managers" should be lobbying for such a set up.  I believe they may slap some paint here and there, but there should be monies for things like updated platforms every so often.  Concrete can't be that expensive, esp. since they use such cheap materials to begin with.