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JubaionBx12+SBS

Select Bus Service Discussion

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This topic is meant to expand the discussion of overcrowding in our bus system as it relates to Select Bus Service routes. When SBS and overcrowding are bought up in the same sentence on here it's generally one route being addressed (one that paulrivera and I happen to know quite a bit about). That's not to say said route isn't significantly worse than the others around the city in terms of crowding but the other SBS routes have to have some overcrowding issues otherwise there may not have been any impetus to have branded them SBS routes. 

 

The question i'm posing is outside of the Sardine Bus Special... which SBS route is doing worst at meeting it's demand (a.k.a has the most packed buses running throughout the day)? I've gotten the chance to take all of the SBS routes (on multiple occasions) minus the two in Brooklyn and notice that the crowds even during rush hour make the bus a joyride compared to what i'm used to. 

 

 

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This topic is meant to expand the discussion of overcrowding in our bus system as it relates to Select Bus Service routes. When SBS and overcrowding are bought up in the same sentence on here it's generally one route being addressed (one that paulrivera and I happen to know quite a bit about). That's not to say said route isn't significantly worse than the others around the city in terms of crowding but the other SBS routes have to have some overcrowding issues otherwise there may not have been any impetus to have branded them SBS routes. 

 

The question i'm posing is outside of the Sardine Bus Special... which SBS route is doing worst at meeting it's demand (a.k.a has the most packed buses running throughout the day)? I've gotten the chance to take all of the SBS routes (on multiple occasions) minus the two in Brooklyn and notice that the crowds even during rush hour make the bus a joyride compared to what i'm used to. 

The M34/M34A has its sardine moments as well, VG8 says the M86 gets packed as well, and I think the Q44 is a bit long. I think that traffic notwithstanding, all the other SBS routes meet up with demand pretty well.

 

Also, I've found that people from Manhattan and the South Bronx take the (4) to the Bx12 to get to WPR because it's faster than taking the (5) and transferring to the (2). On the surface, this theory makes zero sense but if you see the waves of people getting off the (4) onto the 12 and subsequently where they all deboard the bus you'll see why it actually makes some kind of sense (I don't see how the (4) to the 12 is any faster than the (5) to the (2) either...)

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The M34/M34A has its sardine moments as well, VG8 says the M86 gets packed as well, and I think the Q44 is a bit long. I think that traffic notwithstanding, all the other SBS routes meet up with demand pretty well.

 

Also, I've found that people from Manhattan and the South Bronx take the (4) to the Bx12 to get to WPR because it's faster than taking the (5) and transferring to the (2). On the surface, this theory makes zero sense but if you see the waves of people getting off the (4) onto the 12 and subsequently where they all deboard the bus you'll see why it actually makes some kind of sense (I don't see how the (4) to the 12 is any faster than the (5) to the (2) either...)

The (2) and (5) are an absolute mess so I can see why people would avoid them if they can. The manhattan crosstowns can be quite up and down since most of the riders are using them for short trips. If most of the short trips being made miss the segment of the route you care about the buses can be quite empty. I would like to see how the East Side of the M86 is reacting to the (Q) likely attracting passengers who would take the M86 to Lexington from the east. I don't consider the Manhattan crosstowns that have SBS to be "true" SBS routes anyway.  

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The Bx12 is probably the worse. The M15 is probably second followed by the Q44. The M34 and M86 have their moments but there are options when they screw up (i.e. cabs or different subways).

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The Bx12 is probably the worse. The M15 is probably second followed by the Q44. The M34 and M86 have their moments but there are options when they screw up (i.e. cabs or different subways).

I agree that the M15 is pretty bad, and can have bad bunching in rush hour. I've gotten really stuck on the M34 and ended up walking a few times

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I remember when the BX12 and the M15 SBS first came out, it was crazy, the publicity, the amount of railfan taking photos. Now... I forgot how many SBS there is, and the MTA sometimes don't even post online that the route is SBS until the day it becomes it (M23). SBS is not the cure to our bus problem, it only justifies the MTA's slowness in improving our buses (doing it route by route). We need dedicate bus lanes in Manhattan in FULL TIME (not rush hours) and a complete reevaluation of the bus routes in other borough NOW!

Edited by Mtatransit
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I remember when the BX12 and the M15 SBS first came out, it was crazy, the publicity, the amount of railfan taking photos. Now... I forgot how many SBS there is, and the MTA sometimes don't even post online that the route is SBS until the day it becomes it (M23). SBS is not the cure to our bus problem, it only justifies the MTA's slowness in improving our buses (doing it route by route). We need dedicate bus lanes in Manhattan in FULL TIME (not rush hours) and a complete reevaluation of the bus routes in other borough NOW!

Strongly agreed. Thus, no more short turning. The situation is both pain in the butt for riders and all the drivers operating M15, and Bx12. That means I guess the bus lanes you want them full time rather than peak hours, must be essential for SBS.

That means in Queens, Q52 and 53 should have SBS too (via Woodhaven Blvd).

 

 

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This topic is meant to expand the discussion of overcrowding in our bus system as it relates to Select Bus Service routes. When SBS and overcrowding are bought up in the same sentence on here it's generally one route being addressed (one that paulrivera and I happen to know quite a bit about). That's not to say said route isn't significantly worse than the others around the city in terms of crowding but the other SBS routes have to have some overcrowding issues otherwise there may not have been any impetus to have branded them SBS routes. 

 

The question i'm posing is outside of the Sardine Bus Special... which SBS route is doing worst at meeting it's demand (a.k.a has the most packed buses running throughout the day)? I've gotten the chance to take all of the SBS routes (on multiple occasions) minus the two in Brooklyn and notice that the crowds even during rush hour make the bus a joyride compared to what i'm used to. 

Worst at meeting its demand can have another meaning; in laymens, how many SBS trips on a given route that the MTA unnecessarily has running out there, that are not packed.... Using this criteria, it's the B46....

 

But we'll go with your criteria....

On a per trip basis, I'd say the M15 SBS has the 2nd most packed buses running throughout the day..... Crowding on the B44 or the B46 SBS' doesn't come close to being behind the Bx12 SBS, so nothing's being missed as far as having to possibly endure colossal, stupendous, smothering, sardine-level type of conditions to the point where you're worrying about GTFO of the bus so you can breathe....

 

.....per trip on the 2 routes.....

 

I remember when the BX12 and the M15 SBS first came out, it was crazy, the publicity, the amount of railfan taking photos. Now... I forgot how many SBS there is, and the MTA sometimes don't even post online that the route is SBS until the day it becomes it (M23). SBS is not the cure to our bus problem, it only justifies the MTA's slowness in improving our buses (doing it route by route). We need dedicate bus lanes in Manhattan in FULL TIME (not rush hours) and a complete reevaluation of the bus routes in other borough NOW!

Yeah, Most certainly not a cure, and I wouldn't even call SBS a band-aid solution.... The biggest accomplishment of the things AFAIC is that its decreased dwell times..... Traffic into, out of, and within Manhattan (especially) isn't going anywhere no time soon, so this idea that we're (as a city, I mean) going to re-brand these crosstowns (which is what it's slowly coming to) & herald it as some victory, I find to be ridiculous... and quite embarrassing.....

 

To keep it one buck, I'm not all that gung ho about putting bus lanes all over the place either, because all that's going to do is increase congestion per lane.... Our streets were already congested before the fact..... Then you throw in the bike lanes that a significant portion of cyclists don't even utilize, and we have even less roadway for other vehicles to utilize.....

 

When it comes to traffic control though, I don't blame the MTA... Where I begin to blame them, is when they start touting embellished successes & misleading the general public as to how great SBS' actually are....

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I remember when the BX12 and the M15 SBS first came out, it was crazy, the publicity, the amount of railfan taking photos. Now... I forgot how many SBS there is, and the MTA sometimes don't even post online that the route is SBS until the day it becomes it (M23). SBS is not the cure to our bus problem, it only justifies the MTA's slowness in improving our buses (doing it route by route). We need dedicate bus lanes in Manhattan in FULL TIME (not rush hours) and a complete reevaluation of the bus routes in other borough NOW!

101% agree. My question is though, has SBS been as successful as people say? The MTA is always touting improved travel times, but ridership data shows significant declines on many routes. What can be done better? Actual isolated bus lanes?

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101% agree. My question is though, has SBS been as successful as people say? The MTA is always touting improved travel times, but ridership data shows significant declines on many routes. What can be done better? Actual isolated bus lanes?

 

Actually isolating bus lanes would be a start, likely with curbs if they're on the same street. Median-style bus lanes would also be a big help. Also, the current SBS approach is currently like trying to put out a fire with a watering can; you don't fix systemwide ridership declines with route-by-route fixes.

 

San Francisco has buses with lane-enforcement cameras on the front. Our buses should get something similar (and all of them, for all the idiots who park in bus stops, etc.) if they don't have them already.

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Any SBS discussion must also include the locals. My friend last week had to wait over 45 minutes for a B46 local on Broadway last week around 11:15 AM.. (They were scheduled for ten minute operation.) The locals were mobbed with large crowds waiting at every stop. She heard the J train was messed up as well. Three or four buses went north to the Bridge but came back not in service. After she finally boarded and saw the SBSs south of Broadway, they were mostly empty.

 

The MTA is only interested in the SBS and doesn't care about serving local passengers. The explanation I see for the not in service buses is to get them back on schedule to minimize overtime and not caring how long local passengers have to wait. I can see one not in service bus but not every late bus running not in service. So why are the buses late? I think it has more to do with not enough locals than too much traffic. You can build the traffic into the schedules.

 

I am awaiting the MTA's explanation which I have been promised is coming and will report back when and if I get it.

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Any SBS discussion must also include the locals. My friend last week had to wait over 45 minutes for a B46 local on Broadway last week around 11:15 AM.. (They were scheduled for ten minute operation.) The locals were mobbed with large crowds waiting at every stop. She heard the J train was messed up as well. Three or four buses went north to the Bridge but came back not in service. After she finally boarded and saw the SBSs south of Broadway, they were mostly empty.

The MTA is only interested in the SBS and doesn't care about serving local passengers. The explanation I see for the not in service buses is to get them back on schedule to minimize overtime and not caring how long local passengers have to wait. I can see one not in service bus but not every late bus running not in service. So why are the buses late? I think it has more to do with not enough locals than too much traffic. You can build the traffic into the schedules.

I am awaiting the MTA's explanation which I have been promised is coming and will report back when and if I get it.

I agree. The LGA Link and the Q47 switched places. Now I see a empty bay while the Q47 line on Roosevelt stretches a entire block, blocking foot traffic. The only improvement I see in buses ARE either SBS or Shuttles that have suburban style useless frequencies.

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The MTA is only interested in the SBS and doesn't care about serving local passengers. The explanation I see for the not in service buses is to get them back on schedule to minimize overtime and not caring how long local passengers have to wait. I can see one not in service bus but not every late bus running not in service. So why are the buses late? I think it has more to do with not enough locals than too much traffic. You can build the traffic into the schedules.

 

I am awaiting the MTA's explanation which I have been promised is coming and will report back when and if I get it.

SBS routes aren't immune to deadheading buses halfway down the line either, but I do agree with what you're saying.

 

There are times when the local M15 is non-existent south of Houston Street. When you look at the already crappy schedule (most of them are already scheduled to turn at Pike Street) and the traffic conditions, you'll see why. On the flip side (as far as meeting scheduled headways), there are times when the local Bx12 outperforms the SBS. Sure, the local runs every 10-12 minutes and the SBS runs every 5-6 minutes, but once you start abandoning SBS intervals for about half the route but you don't really do so for the local, of course you'll see the extreme ridership imbalance and all the other problems I'm used to seeing.

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The Bx12 is probably the worse. The M15 is probably second followed by the Q44. The M34 and M86 have their moments but there are options when they screw up (i.e. cabs or different subways).

Furthering the angst on that route is the lack of respect (or renewal) of protected bus lanes. Many lack paint jobs.

 

#MassTransitHonchkrow ????

Getting to know the Hudson Valley one bus stop at a time... ????????

Strongly agreed. Thus, no more short turning. The situation is both pain in the butt for riders and all the drivers operating M15, and Bx12. That means I guess the bus lanes you want them full time rather than peak hours, must be essential for SBS.

That means in Queens, Q52 and 53 should have SBS too (via Woodhaven Blvd).

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

what we need is priority signal control for buses. 1 believe that 27,000 city traffic lights support this Kind of use.

 

#MassTransitHonchkrow ????

Getting to know the Hudson Valley one bus stop at a time... ????????

101% agree. My question is though, has SBS been as successful as people say? The MTA is always touting improved travel times, but ridership data shows significant declines on many routes. What can be done better? Actual isolated bus lanes?

I've also noted more freeloaders. There goes the profit. Plus, raucous riders are a turnoff to regulars.

I've often disembarked early because the commotion is overwhelming.

The cold is nicer.

 

#MassTransitHonchkrow ????

Getting to know the Hudson Valley one bus stop at a time... ????????

Actually isolating bus lanes would be a start, likely with curbs if they're on the same street. Median-style bus lanes would also be a big help. Also, the current SBS approach is currently like trying to put out a fire with a watering can; you don't fix systemwide ridership declines with route-by-route fixes.

 

San Francisco has buses with lane-enforcement cameras on the front. Our buses should get something similar (and all of them, for all the idiots who park in bus stops, etc.) if they don't have them already.

and foot enforcement too. With no one to check for tickets, nobody needs to worry about not paying.

 

#MassTransitHonchkrow ????

Getting to know the Hudson Valley one bus stop at a time... ????????

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....My friend last week had to wait over 45 minutes for a B46 local on Broadway last week around 11:15 AM.. (They were scheduled for ten minute operation.) The locals were mobbed with large crowds waiting at every stop. She heard the J train was messed up as well. Three or four buses went north to the Bridge but came back not in service. After she finally boarded and saw the SBSs south of Broadway, they were mostly empty.....

Very similar to an occurrence I had with waiting for a local B46 along Broadway earlier this year, except I got fed up & walked from the (G) to the B43.... Yeah, there are 10 min posted headways, but even when I'm out & about around church, B46 locals are not arriving every 10 minutes - and not even close to it either.... The sheer amount of buses that are significantly less than 1/2 full I see daily around here, gets me rather miffed - and it doesn't matter which direction (from Church) either......

 

SBS along Utica av has been the worst implementation of SBS thus far...

Even worse than the B44, and for me, that's saying a hell of a lot.

------------------

 

 

Not that I was prior anyway, but I'm not trying to hear anyone (on or offline) telling me that I'm exaggerating or O.D-ing when it comes to SBS, and how I should give it a chance or take a wait & see approach... For what? To see how much worse local service gets in this city? Damn all that - the MTA is force-feeding this service down riders' throats, and they don't give one hot f*** about the local riders.... There isn't any complementary relationship b/w SBS' to locals at all (and it's the same crap that's going on with the subways vs. the buses in general).....

 

Subtraction by division; I never cared for the fact that SBS' are treated totally separate from the locals.....

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Very similar to an occurrence I had with waiting for a local B46 along Broadway earlier this year, except I got fed up & walked from the (G) to the B43.... Yeah, there are 10 min posted headways, but even when I'm out & about around church, B46 locals are not arriving every 10 minutes - and not even close to it either.... The sheer amount of buses that are significantly less than 1/2 full I see daily around here, gets me rather miffed - and it doesn't matter which direction (from Church) either......

 

SBS along Utica av has been the worst implementation of SBS thus far...

Even worse than the B44, and for me, that's saying a hell of a lot.

------------------

 

 

Not that I was prior anyway, but I'm not trying to hear anyone (on or offline) telling me that I'm exaggerating or O.D-ing when it comes to SBS, and how I should give it a chance or take a wait & see approach... For what? To see how much worse local service gets in this city? Damn all that - the MTA is force-feeding this service down riders' throats, and they don't give one hot f*** about the local riders.... There isn't any complementary relationship b/w SBS' to locals at all (and it's the same crap that's going on with the subways vs. the buses in general).....

 

Subtraction by division; I never cared for the fact that SBS' are treated totally separate from the locals.....

I blame DOT more than the MTA for the SBS fiasco. DOT is the lead agency. The MTA is sort of being forced into SBS by DeBlasio. I don't believe they are crazy about SBS either. I bet there is a lot of fighting between the two agencies that we don't hear about.

 

What bothers me most is the DOT deception and how the media states DOT's unsubstantiated clams as fact. DOT stated that SBS cuts travel time between 10 and 30 percent and are never asked to prove that claim. To any rational person, that statement means your SBS trip will be that much faster when that is not at all what DOT is saying. They are talking about bus running times. You would have to ride from the first to last stop to achieve those savings if they are even true. The most the average rider saves is like 7 to 10 percent when who don't count the additional walking to and from the wider spaced bus stops. Those making short trips may even take longer with SBS than the local when you figure in walking distance.

 

The B46 will be the worst implemented SBS route until the Q52/53 starts runnng. That one will be a nightmare.

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I blame DOT more than the MTA for the SBS fiasco. DOT is the lead agency. The MTA is sort of being forced into SBS by DeBlasio. I don't believe they are crazy about SBS either. I bet there is a lot of fighting between the two agencies that we don't hear about.

What bothers me most is the DOT deception and how the media states DOT's unsubstantiated clams as fact. DOT stated that SBS cuts travel time between 10 and 30 percent and are never asked to prove that claim. To any rational person, that statement means your SBS trip will be that much faster when that is not at all what DOT is saying. They are talking about bus running times. You would have to ride from the first to last stop to achieve those savings if they are even true. The most the average rider saves is like 7 to 10 percent when who don't count the additional walking to and from the wider spaced bus stops. Those making short trips may even take longer with SBS than the local when you figure in walking distance.

The B46 will be the worst implemented SBS route until the Q52/53 starts runnng. That one will be a nightmare.

I don't believe so. The Q52/53 is the ONLY one of the SBS that if implemented right would decrease rider travel time. It actually have full time bus lanes (not the rush hour useless bus lane that bus drivers don't drive in anywhere) There may be delays on the Q53 but there is the Q52 Short turn and local bus service which should be beefed up. All of this could improve travel along this corrider. BUT car travel will be severely affected. However with the beautification of the corrider and pedestrian friendly walkway, I support this project

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One of the worst experiences thus far with this SBS fiasco is taking the B46. Honestly, the (MTA) should of left this line alone. The line is really losing its touch. Especially with the local. What needs to be address is this. You gotta cover the local time frames vs the SBS timeframes.

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One of the worst experiences thus far with this SBS fiasco is taking the B46. Honestly, the (MTA) should of left this line alone. The line is really losing its touch. Especially with the local. What needs to be address is this. You gotta cover the local time frames vs the SBS timeframes.

The only reason they convert it to Select bus is to pretend like they are actually doing something, while neglecting or even downgrading the local. Simple improvement to Limited bus would've work.

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The only reason they convert it to Select bus is to pretend like they are actually doing something, while neglecting or even downgrading the local. Simple improvement to Limited bus would've work.

 

Exactly.. An improved limited with some Artics, XD40's and NG's would of been fine instead of this SBS bull.

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I don't believe so. The Q52/53 is the ONLY one of the SBS that if implemented right would decrease rider travel time. It actually have full time bus lanes (not the rush hour useless bus lane that bus drivers don't drive in anywhere) There may be delays on the Q53 but there is the Q52 Short turn and local bus service which should be beefed up. All of this could improve travel along this corrider. BUT car travel will be severely affected. However with the beautification of the corrider and pedestrian friendly walkway, I support this project

There are still too many problems for this project to be approved. First, DOT has not stated clearly what will be done in phase 1 vs phase two. Chances are there will be no money for phase 2 estimated at between $200 million to $400 million whereas phase 1 will cost between $10 million and $20 million so we first need to know what Phase 1 includes since that is all we get. Will Phase 1 leave the locals on the service roads? If not, how will the bus stops look like for the locals on the main roads? There is money in Phase 1 only for three improved bus stops on the median with shelters in fences. Unprotected local bus stops in the median would be unsafe and unprotected. I can just see DOT saying if you want protected stops you must approve Phase 2.

 

Previous experience has shown local service is denigrated after SBS, probably to pay for the increased cost of SBS. So there is no reason to assume improved local service. Also, severely affecting automobile traffic is just unacceptable. There are no parallel through streets to Woodhaven as in other corridors for traffic to divert to.

 

There also is no reason for full time bus lanes.Woodhaven Blvd traffic is only heavy between 7 AM and 10 AM and between 3 PM and 7 PM which is when the lanes should be in effect. On Woodhaven most cars do not drive in the exclusive lanes already installed in Rego Park during the hours the bus lanes are not in effect. Often I am the only car using that lane. This project needs to be rejected from the information we currently have about it.

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Any SBS discussion must also include the locals. My friend last week had to wait over 45 minutes for a B46 local on Broadway last week around 11:15 AM.. (They were scheduled for ten minute operation.) The locals were mobbed with large crowds waiting at every stop. She heard the J train was messed up as well. Three or four buses went north to the Bridge but came back not in service. After she finally boarded and saw the SBSs south of Broadway, they were mostly empty.

The MTA is only interested in the SBS and doesn't care about serving local passengers. The explanation I see for the not in service buses is to get them back on schedule to minimize overtime and not caring how long local passengers have to wait. I can see one not in service bus but not every late bus running not in service. So why are the buses late? I think it has more to do with not enough locals than too much traffic. You can build the traffic into the schedules.

 

I am awaiting the MTA's explanation which I have been promised is coming and will report back when and if I get it.

Just heard from the MTA regarding the B46 delay I described. They said their investigation showed the complaint had merit and the dispatcher was reinstructed on how to handle such delays in the future.

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