A Fare Discussion

[BrooklynBus]

This was the testimony I submitted to the MTA.

 

http://m.rockawave.com/news/2017-01-27/Letters/A_Fare_Discussion.html#.WMM1-pE8Kf1

[Wallyhorse]

This was the testimony I submitted to the MTA.

 

http://m.rockawave.com/news/2017-01-27/Letters/A_Fare_Discussion.html#.WMM1-pE8Kf1

Very well said!

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Completely disagree. If the Liberty pass comes into play, that will be a major game changer. How many people are using three buses to complete their commutes? If anything, the should introduce more passes. Bring back the 1 day pass. Bring back the monthly express bus pass and the two week pass. With a pay-per-ride, you can make two trips for the price of one. I do it some weeks when I'm using Metro-North a lot since I have a monthly and won't be using much of anything else.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

I have always been in favor of replacing all transfer privileges with a time-based pass: dip or swipe once and you have your run of the base system (subway, local bus, Staten Island Railway) for a specific amount of time, say two or three hours. Dipping on an express bus would extend the pass to the entire express bus network. Once the time window expires, the system charges another fare and the whole thing starts again. The fixed duration could even vary according to when the first dip/swipe happens (e.g. two or three hours during most of the day, four or five hours for overnight). 

 

It would be easy for passengers to understand, and certainly easier to program than a huge matrix of "from-route-to-route" combinations.

[Mtatransit]

I have always been in favor of replacing all transfer privileges with a time-based pass: dip or swipe once and you have your run of the base system (subway, local bus, Staten Island Railway) for a specific amount of time, say two or three hours. Dipping on an express bus would extend the pass to the entire express bus network. Once the time window expires, the system charges another fare and the whole thing starts again. The fixed duration could even vary according to when the first dip/swipe happens (e.g. two or three hours during most of the day, four or five hours for overnight). 

 

It would be easy for passengers to understand, and certainly easier to program than a huge matrix of "from-route-to-route" combinations.

Problem is, you have people at stations selling swipes. By having a time based system they earn more profit. I always believed that an unlimited should have a 120 min buffer time in Midtown Manhattan, and 30-60 min at the rest of the system.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Problem is, you have people at stations selling swipes. By having a time based system they earn more profit. I always believed that an unlimited should have a 120 min buffer time in Midtown Manhattan, and 30-60 min at the rest of the system.

Then you put in time restrictions to avoid abuse.

[BrooklynBus]

Completely disagree. If the Liberty pass comes into play, that will be a major game changer. How many people are using three buses to complete their commutes? If anything, the should introduce more passes. Bring back the 1 day pass. Bring back the monthly express bus pass and the two week pass. With a pay-per-ride, you can make two trips for the price of one. I do it some weeks when I'm using Metro-North a lot since I have a monthly and won't be using much of anything else.

The point isn't so much how many are using three buses or two buses and a train to make their trip, but how many trips could be made easier and quicker with two buses and a train than with two buses and how much the MTA could save by not having to provide bus service for those who ride longer and more indirect to save a fare.

 

What is the Liberty pass.

 

I also think the express bus fare should be capped at twice the regular fare. I forgot to mention that. And of course there should be daily passes and more options for like those who commute regularly but only do it three or four times a week.

 

Why should you receive the "commuter toll discount" for Staten Island residents for only making three trips a month? Those who make three round trips a week on the subway are bigger commuters and receive no special discount.

[Mtatransit]

The point isn't so much how many are using three buses or two buses and a train to make their trip, but how many trips could be made easier and quicker with two buses and a train than with two buses and how much the MTA could save by not having to provide bus service for those who ride longer and more indirect to save a fare.

What is the Liberty pass.

I also think the express bus fare should be capped at twice the regular fare. I forgot to mention that. And of course there should be daily passes and more options for like those who commute regularly but only do it three or four times a week.

Why should you receive the "commuter toll discount" for Staten Island residents for only making three trips a month? Those who make three round trips a week on the subway are bigger commuters and receive no special discount.

Agreed Express bus should be capped at doubled the local fare. It's for those that don't want to take the local bus and transfer to the subway. The current set up is definitely not fair, you could ride the bus down Lex AV and do a return trip on the subway, might as well as just have a timed system so they could choose their method of going home without a penalty of an additional fare. Bus routes could also be altered for this new setup. However ONLY Metrocard or future smart cards should be given this discount, as I don't think people would want beggars at bus/subway stops looking and asking for cards that have "unlimited rides" inside

Completely disagree. If the Liberty pass comes into play, that will be a major game changer. How many people are using three buses to complete their commutes? If anything, the should introduce more passes. Bring back the 1 day pass. Bring back the monthly express bus pass and the two week pass. With a pay-per-ride, you can make two trips for the price of one. I do it some weeks when I'm using Metro-North a lot since I have a monthly and won't be using much of anything else.

The goal is to... 1) Avoid people using tactics to save a ride ("transferring at Lex Av/59 or 63 St) or taking train one way, bus the other. 2) People taking three buses or four due to obsolete bus routes. 3) People saving a fare or transfer by staying on a bus instead of transferring at the subway station that is three times as fast as the train. 4) Reduce cost to operate bus as some could be shorten or altered to reflect travel pattern.

[IAlam]

Problem is, you have people at stations selling swipes. By having a time based system they earn more profit. I always believed that an unlimited should have a 120 min buffer time in Midtown Manhattan, and 30-60 min at the rest of the system.

An easy fix would be if you are swiping at the same station again, The wait is an hour, if you go to another station the wait remains at 18 minutes. Same for buses, if you want to go on the same bus in the same direction you have to wait 60 minutes, 18 minutes remains if you go in the opposite direction, or switch branches, (ie LCL to SBS)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The goal is to... 1) Avoid people using tactics to save a ride ("transferring at Lex Av/59 or 63 St) or taking train one way, bus the other. 2) People taking three buses or four due to obsolete bus routes. 3) People saving a fare or transfer by staying on a bus instead of transferring at the subway station that is three times as fast as the train. 4) Reduce cost to operate bus as some could be shorten or altered to reflect travel pattern.

People are going to do it regardless. Why shouldn't they?

The point isn't so much how many are using three buses or two buses and a train to make their trip, but how many trips could be made easier and quicker with two buses and a train than with two buses and how much the MTA could save by not having to provide bus service for those who ride longer and more indirect to save a fare.

What is the Liberty pass.

I also think the express bus fare should be capped at twice the regular fare. I forgot to mention that. And of course there should be daily passes and more options for like those who commute regularly but only do it three or four times a week.

Why should you receive the "commuter toll discount" for Staten Island residents for only making three trips a month? Those who make three round trips a week on the subway are bigger commuters and receive no special discount.

I agree with everything but the Staten Island comment. As a former Staten Islander, that discount should ONLY apply to Staten Islanders because they have one of the highest tolls around.

[Lawrence St]

I see what you did there in the title lol...

[B35 via Church]

This is what I propose: Unlimited trips for one fare if the time between entering the system and making your final transfer is no greater than 90 minutes (or two hours when service is infrequent). That way no one travels or walks extra distances just to save a fare and the MTA does not have to provide extra bus service due to travel patterns resulting from someone avoiding an extra fare.

Although I'm indifferent to this & can still respect the thought process, I see the concept looming too complicated for the average rider in this city to grasp.... Hell, you still have long time residents of this city that STILL don't know which way to insert the metrocard to pay for the bus, for crying out loud....

 

What is the Liberty pass.

A fictional name given for a NYC transit based smartcard..... somewhat akin to SmartLink (PATH).

[N6 Limited]

Good Article. There are also trips between Brooklyn and Queens, within the Bronx, etc. that are more direct  (Bus > Train > Bus or Train > bus > Train) than traveling trough Manhattan or downtown Brooklyn(wherever). I tend to make trips that would be a double fare with a pay per ride card (out of convenience.) Sometimes due to delays I'll simply walk over to another subway line after I have already swiped, or if i'm tired of the train that I'm on sitting in and between stations).

 

One day (before the 2nd Ave line opened)  I was taking the to Manhattan from Queens. Something happened and there were major delays headed downtown. My train was sitting at 63rd and Lex and you could see the previous train in the tunnel. I left the station, walked to 59th and Lex and took a Broadway line Train.

 

Recently one evening heading to Jamaica, there was a conga line for whatever reason and and trains were just sitting in stations, while sitting at 63rd Drive, I opened the Transit app and saw that a Q60 was coming, I took that to Jamaica instead. 

 

The MTA should care more about customer service over "losing" fare revenue due to "cheating", because good customer service increases ridership and discretionary trips., hence additional revenue. However, as seen in recent ridership statistics, since they care less (if at all) about customer service, ridership has been decreasing, and other services or modes of transportation have been used.

 

People are going to do it regardless. Why shouldn't they?
 

I agree. When I use a PPR card I try to use as few "trips" as possible.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Good Article. There are also trips between Brooklyn and Queens, within the Bronx, etc. that are more direct  (Bus > Train > Bus or Train > bus > Train) than traveling trough Manhattan or downtown Brooklyn(wherever). I tend to make trips that would be a double fare with a pay per ride card (out of convenience.) Sometimes due to delays I'll simply walk over to another subway line after I have already swiped, or if i'm tired of the train that I'm on sitting in and between stations).

 

One day (before the 2nd Ave line opened)  I was taking the to Manhattan from Queens. Something happened and there were major delays headed downtown. My train was sitting at 63rd and Lex and you could see the previous train in the tunnel. I left the station, walked to 59th and Lex and took a Broadway line Train.

 

Recently one evening heading to Jamaica, there was a conga line for whatever reason and and trains were just sitting in stations, while sitting at 63rd Drive, I opened the Transit app and saw that a Q60 was coming, I took that to Jamaica instead. 

 

The MTA should care more about customer service over "losing" fare revenue due to "cheating", because good customer service increases ridership and discretionary trips., hence additional revenue. However, as seen in recent ridership statistics, since they care less (if at all) about customer service, ridership has been decreasing, and other services or modes of transportation have been used.

 

I agree. When I use a PPR card I try to use as few "trips" as possible.

Or you maximize how to stretch each trip. Quite frankly, with the way that the fare is currently structured, it almost doesn't pay to get a pay-per-ride. When I buy a monthly Metro-North pass, I always do the math on getting a pay-per-ride versus an express bus pass, and with the amount of trips that I use on the subway, local bus and express bus, most weeks I just cave in and get the pass, which it seems the wants.  They get the money upfront, whether you use the pass or not.  When the new fare takes place, the bonus will be a joke.

[N6 Limited]

Or you maximize how to stretch each trip. Quite frankly, with the way that the fare is currently structured, it almost doesn't pay to get a pay-per-ride. When I buy a monthly Metro-North pass, I always do the math on getting a pay-per-ride versus an express bus pass, and with the amount of trips that I use on the subway, local bus and express bus, most weeks I just cave in and get the pass, which it seems the wants.  They get the money upfront, whether you use the pass or not.  When the new fare takes place, the bonus will be a joke.

Right, I've maximized how to stretch trips,  If you have to do an errand, you can take the bus there, and the train or parallel bus back, etc. I use an unlimited card, but there have been instances where I forgot it at home but had my PPR back up card in my wallet. It does allow a lot more flexibility in transit options or trips.

 

If someone with a PPR was taking the Broadway or Lex line to Union Square to transfer to the they could make the normal transfer for free or they can head above ground purchase something quickly, then head back down to the . People with Unlimited cards do that already, but a PPR rider would have to pay another fare and so they don't usually make that decision. If there were Unlimited rides in a given time period as suggested, the MTA wouldn't actually "lose" because I'm not sure there are many trips where people pay more than one fare in the suggested time frame unless they're in an extreme rush. Riders now plan the trip so they can walk, etc instead of re-entering the subway.

[BrooklynBus]

I see what you did there in the title lol...

Actually, that wasn't intentional.

[BrooklynBus]

I agree with everything but the Staten Island comment. As a former Staten Islander, that discount should ONLY apply to Staten Islanders because they have one of the highest tolls around.

I disagree. Someone who commutes five days a week from Brooklyn to Staten Island should pay the same rate as someone who commutes five days a week from Staten Island to Brooklyn. And as a said , three days a month should not qualify anyone for a " commuter" rate. This was strictly a political decision.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I disagree. Someone who commutes five days a week from Brooklyn to Staten Island should pay the same rate as someone who commutes five days a week from Staten Island to Brooklyn. And as a said , three days a month should not qualify anyone for a " commuter" rate. This was strictly a political decision.

Of course. You're not a Staten Island resident as I was, so you don't get it.

[BrooklynBus]

Of course. You're not a Staten Island resident as I was, so you don't get it.

I am not saying they shouldn't get discounts. It's just that traveling three days a month does not qualify anyone as a commuter no matter where you live.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I am not saying they shouldn't get discounts. It's just that traveling three days a month does not qualify anyone as a commuter no matter where you live.

Yeah well you don't pay a toll to get in and out of Manhattan Beach.  Staten Islanders have to pay a toll every time they want to leave Staten Island.  No one else has to put up with such a thing in the entire city.  Granted they only pay when returning to Staten Island, but it's still ridiculous.  Case in point, years ago, I was invited to a Brazilian restaurant by a friend (colleague at the time) I had been working with on a long-term project.  After the dinner, he and his girlfriend offered to drive me from the restaurant in Midtown to Staten Island.  They knew about the toll to get into Brooklyn, but had no idea that it was $10.00 (at that time, it is now $20.00) cash to get on to Staten Island. I was so embarrassed that I gave them the $10.00 because when I thought about the money they spent in gas, plus the tolls, it was just absurd. They were spending a small fortune just to do me the favor of getting me home, so for the person taking that occasional trip that lives on Staten Island, they should not be punished with such exorbitant tolls.

[Fresh Pond]

Yeah well you don't pay a toll to get in and out of Manhattan Beach. Staten Islanders have to pay a toll every time they want to leave Staten Island. No one else has to put up with such a thing in the entire city. Granted they only pay when returning to Staten Island, but it's still ridiculous. Case in point, years ago, I was invited to a Brazilian restaurant by a friend (colleague at the time) I had been working with on a long-term project. After the dinner, he and his girlfriend offered to drive me from the restaurant in Midtown to Staten Island. They knew about the toll to get into Brooklyn, but had no idea that it was $10.00 (at that time, it is now $20.00) cash to get on to Staten Island. I was so embarrassed that I gave them the $10.00 because when I thought about the money they spent in gas, plus the tolls, it was just absurd. They were spending a small fortune just to do me the favor of getting me home, so for the person taking that occasional trip that lives on Staten Island, they should not be punished with such exorbitant tolls.

The Rockaways beg to differ

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The Rockaways beg to differ

I forgot about them, but even they don't pay such high tolls.  

[checkmatechamp13]

The cash toll is $16, and the only reason that's the case is because it's a round-trip toll. The cash toll for the Queens-Midtown Tunnel, Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel, etc are $8, but they apply one-way.

 

And for the person that lives there, they get a resident discount, which is $6.24 - $6.60 (again, round-trip), and if I understand it correctly, you can get a small rebate as well to bring the cost to $5.50. (My family has the resident discount, but I'm not sure if we've used the rebate)

[N6 Limited]

Do people in SI park by Hylan Blvd and take the S79 over to Brooklyn to save on Tolls?

I ask because sometimes when I go uptown I park in Astoria and take the M60 across the bridge to save on tolls, avoid traffic and having to find parking. (I have an unlimited card so the bus ride already covered)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Do people in SI park by Hylan Blvd and take the S79 over to Brooklyn to save on Tolls?

I ask because sometimes when I go uptown I park in Astoria and take the M60 across the bridge to save on tolls, avoid traffic and having to find parking. (I have an unlimited card so the bus ride already covered)

I would say no.  What some do however is drive to the SIR and take that to the ferry.  I used to work with several Staten Islanders.  It really depends on the individual and how much money they make.  One guy lived in Great Kills and took the X7 into the office.  Another lady lived Prince's Bay.  She drove to the SIR and took the ferry to the subway.  Two principals drove into work (one from the Annadale area) and another from the North Shore.  I took the express bus in.  Another guy who also lived in Prince's Bay drove in.  These folks all earned different salaries, and that made a big difference too in addition to what time you needed to be certain places.  The lady in marketing had a fixed schedule.  The people that drove in were senior project managers and/or part owners (principals) that had to be on-site rather early, not to mention that two of them made over six figures easily, so paying for parking wasn't a big deal for them.  On occasion I think the lady would get a ride in from one of them since they lived on Staten Island, but that wasn't too often.  I at the time was making good money, but even then I wouldn't think of putting up with driving.  I didn't have to be in as early either. Even though I did work long hours, I only went on-site occasionally, and generally had a more fixed schedule.