Queens Community Board 14 Withdraws their support for the Woodhaven Blvd SBS

[MassTransitHonchkrow]

On what grounds is support being withdrawn? The objections to the Woodhaven SBS are mostly coming from a pro-car position so I'm having trouble seeing what direction the community wants to go as far as improving bus service.

Car owners really shouldn't be given a majority voice in these plannings.

They can't have their cake and eat it too. Either they roll with their cars or with buses.

 

If they choose their cars over buses, service should be pulled so that those buses can be given to neighborhoods that appreciate them (like East NY, Bushwick, Hollis, or Red Hook).

Why can't upgrade the machines? My guys could retrofit a unit for $180-$200 a pop. RFID and ARM based Linux or Android unit could ALMOST do the trick. Technology is obsolete as soon as you take it out-of-the-box your not fully starting from scratch in this case. I don't know anything about Buses but I can tell you that. 

Why can't we mandate a push to EasyPay? Managed MetroCards do not need TVMs or station agents for refills and can be managed online or by phone.

And unlike TVMs, there is no 15 cent loss as all refills are processed electronically. Also, bonuses are reverse applied, meaning when you use an EZP card for value, you pay $2.62, not $2.75. (those figures are post-3/19 BTW).

 

If everyone was on EZP, we could hop off MetroCards and onto Online Payments faster as forms would already be filled.

Soon with all the opposition, this bus corridor will turn again into a glorified Limited Bus.

like the S79? *giggles*

[RailRunRob]

Why can't we mandate a push to EasyPay? Managed MetroCards do not need TVMs or station agents for refills and can be managed online or by phone.

And unlike TVMs, there is no 15 cent loss as all refills are processed electronically. Also, bonuses are reverse applied, meaning when you use an EZP card for value, you pay $2.62, not $2.75. (those figures are post-3/19 BTW).

 

How does that work for the rider where's your failsafe?  My phone is dead or dies on route how would a rider provide proof of payment. The Metrocard replacement is also going to offer a RFID card option as well for a refill that's a given. I don't understand your EZ PASS reference to transit it's moving fully cashless. Don't have the cash on hand no worries your plate has your Address I'll send you the bill. Not sure I see the connection.

[BrooklynBus]

 

Only agree with you about the last point about the Q52 being a stunt.off Board fare payment. if it saves so much time, why on the M86 did the MTA tell the community buses only saved an average of two minutes river to river. When further questioned about savings in the rush hour only, the MTA refused to respond. If a few intersections on Woodhaven have extra long loading times, the MTA could do what was done in the 1950's and 60's. Station an attendant on the sidewalk during the rush hour at the rear door to accept payment allowing entrance through the rear door. It would cut dwell times in half and cost must less.Bus Lanes are still better than regular traffic Lanes. M86 I don't believe has Bus Lanes only "Jump Lanes". Regarding Attendant, wouldn't that cost more in the long term, rather than just have random enforcement (with additional ticket revenue)patronage decline Yes generally it is on a decline. SBS was supposed to stop that but in most cases, that hasn't happened. The M15 has a lot of problems which caused the massive passenger decline not totally attributable to SBS, such as Second Avenue Subway Construction and chronic congestion near the 59 Street Bridge. But those problems were known before the project start but that corridor was chosen anyway.Corridor was chosen probably because they felt there could be improvements (which never materialized due to lax enforcement of Bus Lanes)Rockaway Local bus stops No one is considering the time lost walking further to an SBS bus stop which is especially inconvenient lugging beach gear. The line at B116 St on a summer weekend extends for half the block. With elimination of adjacent stops, the line will stretch around the block. So you first have to lug your beach gear to the front of the stop to get your receipt, then walk around the block to get to the end of the line and then retrace your steps again. How convenient is that? Have you seen the summer crowds until 8 PM at B96 and 98 Streets. It's like over 50 people. The Beach 96 Street sidewalk is narrow and can't hold that many people. It is just unsafe. As far as them taking the subway instead, if that was easier, then why aren't they doing that  now?                                                                                                                                                                                  A lot of the ridership on Woodhaven Limited came FROM the local buses. The Q11/21 had their headways severly eroded. That shows that either way riders are already walking to the nearest Limited Stop. SBS won't change that. Atlantic Av will be replaced by another stop nearby. Regarding Rockaway Stops bus bulbs will probably work and create additional space (with loss of parking). 

 

The M86 only has the fare prepayment. I believe only one bus stop was eliminated so all the improvements in running time are due to paying your fare beforehand. At one of the meetings for the M79 SBS, my friend asked how much time the M86 saves. The answer was an average of 1.8 minutes. When asked what the time savings was for rush hours only, the MTA refused to answer. Why? Was it no better? Hardly seems worth the expense. M86 ridership also dropped. The Atlantic Avenue bus stop for SBS will be 600 feet from the transfer point. That's not nearby.

Why can't upgrade the machines? My guys could retrofit a unit for $180-$200 a pop. RFID and ARM based Linux or Android unit could ALMOST do the trick. Technology is obsolete as soon as you take it out-of-the-box your not fully starting from scratch in this case. I don't know anything about Buses but I can tell you that.

 

It is my understanding that with contactless payment you just tap your card or your phone near one of the doors where you are entering and that paper receipts are no longer necessary. If so, why would you need fare kiosks anymore?

[BreeddekalbL]

Not sure what killed Merritt, but times are different today. DeBlasio stated that Community Boards don't have the final word. That means he will push through SBS even if every single Board votes against it because he has the arrogant belief that the city knows best and the people are too dumb to know what is good for them or not.

 

well the people should freaking sue to stop it! 

[Around the Horn]

 

Why can't we mandate a push to EasyPay? Managed MetroCards do not need TVMs or station agents for refills and can be managed online or by phone.

And unlike TVMs, there is no 15 cent loss as all refills are processed electronically. Also, bonuses are reverse applied, meaning when you use an EZP card for value, you pay $2.62, not $2.75. (those figures are post-3/19 BTW).

 

If everyone was on EZP, we could hop off MetroCards and onto Online Payments faster as forms would already be filled.

 

So tourists are going to be SOL? You're fine with this?

[bobtehpanda]

well the people should freaking sue to stop it! 

 

You need legal standing to sue. Community boards, whether you think they actually represent a community or not, are advisory, so ignoring them is not a legal basis to sue.

 

isn't that what similarly killed the merrick blvd sbs?

 

Essentially what happened is that the community pointed out to DOT that SBS would be useless if buses just ended up hitting the wall of traffic in Jamaica, so they reconfigured general bus patterns in Jamaica instead.

[Cait Sith]

So tourists are going to be SOL? You're fine with this?

 

On top of that, EasyPay is not for everyone, especially with how long it takes for them to replace damaged Metrocards. MVM's gives us the security that if we lose our card, we can get one elsewhere, obviously at a cost. Tourists won't adapt to EasyPay, since Metrocards are more simplier in that regard, ESPECIALLY at Jamaica Station & Howard Beach/JFK. His one-sided thinking would affect a lot of people.

[BrooklynBus]

You need legal standing to sue. Community boards, whether you think they actually represent a community or not, are advisory, so ignoring them is not a legal basis to sue.

 

 

 

Essentially what happened is that the community pointed out to DOT that SBS would be useless if buses just ended up hitting the wall of traffic in Jamaica, so they reconfigured general bus patterns in Jamaica instead.

No environmental impact statement is enough of a reason to sue which is a last resort. The sad thing is when the center road bus lanes turn out to be a disaster, more money will have to be spent to rip them out.

 

As far as Merrick, the MTA and DOT weren't happy to drop SBS. That's why they thought they would be punishing Queens by seeng it is the last borough to receive it. They were actually doing them a favor because the planners at DOT are idiots. After Woodhaven their next plan is to take away two more lanes from Queens Blvd for SBS or just exclusive lanes there after removing two lanes for bike lanes. So Queens Blvd will have been reduced from ten lanes to six with two of those being useless and hopelessly clogged with traffic. The other four won't do too much better. The city is purposely trying to bring traffic to a halt to stop people from driving without making improvements to mass transit.

[B35 via Church]

The Atlantic Avenue bus stop for SBS will be 600 feet from the transfer point. That's not nearby.

Ridiculous.

 

Car owners really shouldn't be given a majority voice in these plannings.

They can't have their cake and eat it too. Either they roll with their cars or with buses.

Car owner ≠ anti-transit...

 

Now that that's out the way, be careful what you wish for with that... Have you have car owners (like myself) solely "roll with cars" & you will have even more cars on the road - Guaranteed.... Fostering divisiveness like is NOT what you want occurring in this city..... You think the amount of griping from those throughout NYC regarding slow buses is bad now..... Hah!

 

You should be advocating for more car owners "rolling" with buses.....

 

.....like the S79? *giggles*

Like any SBS route, period.

 

Why can't we mandate a push to EasyPay?.....

Take into consideration how many people that utilize the metrocard that don't have a] bank accounts and b] credit/debit cards....

 

There's your answer.

 

How does that work for the rider where's your failsafe?  My phone is dead or dies on route how would a rider provide proof of payment. The Metrocard replacement is also going to offer a RFID card option as well for a refill that's a given. I don't understand your EZ PASS reference to transit it's moving fully cashless. Don't have the cash on hand no worries your plate has your Address I'll send you the bill. Not sure I see the connection.

Within that paragraph, he's referring to the easy pay metrocard the whole time.....

[N6 Limited]

How was the Merrick SBS going to work? Was the southern terminal going to be Rosedale or Green Acres?

 

Merrick Blvd has 4 lanes with parking for businesses in a transit desert. Sounds like they would have just removed parking? Because 1 lane each way is not going to work.

[BrooklynBus]

How was the Merrick SBS going to work? Was the southern terminal going to be Rosedale or Green Acres?

 

Merrick Blvd has 4 lanes with parking for businesses in a transit desert. Sounds like they would have just removed parking? Because 1 lane each way is not going to work.

 

The merchants would have objected to the parking removal. If one lane in each direction is what was proposed, DOT is too dumb to realize that wouldn't  have worked.  If it was proposed today, their opposition would not have mattered since deBlasio has given DOT the go ahead no to listen to communities and to do whatever they want anyway.

[BreeddekalbL]

well the cb's have the right to sue since there was no environmental impact statement plus it will negatively impact the neighborhood, also when did deblasio say tell the CB'S to effectively shush ?

[BrooklynBus]

well the cb's have the right to sue since there was no environmental impact statement plus it will negatively impact the neighborhood, also when did deblasio say tell the CB'S to effectively shush ?

It's been quoted many times in the press. Most recently he said, "Community Boards do not have the final word." Previously he instructed DOT to ignore anything communities say when it is in regard to Vision Zero and DOT believes safety is at stake. Now that DOT tied SBS to Vision Zero, that gives them carte blanche to move ahead with it even if all communities oppose it.

 

Communities also want increased safety and believe the median bus stops will make the boulevard more dangerous and will not increase safety. But what only matters according to deBlasio is DOT's opinion that SBS makes the street safer. Originally DOT said SBS and Vision Zero were completely separate. That meant DOT had to listen to the communities. But since it is now a Vision Zero Program, the opinion of the communities no longer matter. This is evidenced by DOT's response to a question last year from the Woodhaven Residents Block Association who asked what will happen if all the communities oppose SBS. The response was that you are getting it anyway.

 

So the question now his how much will we get? If there are no federal moneys, how much will $10 million buy out of the planned $400 million project? DOT is making it seem that most of the project will still be completed which is clearly not possible without most of the money.

[Mtatransit]

In the long term Rockaway Branch should be reactivated, that I believe most of the community agree with with, but in the mean time, we need to do something about the buses. Doing nothing will not cut it.

[BrooklynBus]

In the long term Rockaway Branch should be reactivated, that I believe most of the community agree with with, but in the mean time, we need to do something about the buses. Doing nothing will not cut it.

Doing nothing is still better than making things worse. If DOT wants to go ahead with SBS, they need to make the changes outlined in the presentation.

[Mtatransit]

The problem with the presentation is that it seems to favor car travel. Looking at the presentation, there will be NO difference between now and what's proposed in the presentation. A plan should not only favor Bus riders or it should not only favor car travel. In the proposal, it only benifits car travel and NOTHING for Bus rider.

[BrooklynBus]

The problem with the presentation is that it seems to favor car travel. Looking at the presentation, there will be NO difference between now and what's proposed in the presentation. A plan should not only favor Bus riders or it should not only favor car travel. In the proposal, it only benifits car travel and NOTHING for Bus rider.

I don't understand how you arrived at that conclusion. There is no favoring of car travel. In fact, nothing is proposed that would improve car travel. It only talks about not making things worse for cars and trucks. Everyone needs to be treated fairly.

 

What is proposed in the presentation is to fix SBS or scrap it. DOT's plan only favors bus passengers who are about 20 percent of the users of the corridor in motor vehicles. Not very fair at all.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I don't understand how you arrived at that conclusion. There is no favoring of car travel. In fact, nothing is proposed that would improve car travel. It only talks about not making things worse for cars and trucks. Everyone needs to be treated fairly.

 

What is proposed in the presentation is to fix SBS or scrap it. DOT's plan only favors bus passengers who are about 20 percent of the users of the corridor in motor vehicles. Not very fair at all.

It's very fair.  You continue to overlook the fact that the majority of the population here uses public transportation.  This city has to be pro transit first given the sheer amount of people that live here.  Congestion is worsening like never before here.  In fact I'd argue that we're behind because we haven't taken a harder line with drivers.  Look at how much better things are in Europe in places like London.  It's ridiculous that we have people running to cars in this city in part because of our transit system is a joke.  We have to start somewhere and I still strongly favor congestion pricing and anything else that puts transit riders first.  If you want to drive here you should pay an arm and a leg to do so, and the pain should be spread across the board equally.  Norway is moving towards electric cars in 2025, and will ban gas cars.  What are we doing to curb the use of cars and pollution? Absolutely nothing.  Gas is cheap and everyone is running to their cars clogging up the roads.  You can't get anywhere these days.  We have a finite amount of capacity for roads, and thus we have to maximize that accordingly, and having people in gas guzzlers with one person in a four door car is doing the complete opposite.

[BreeddekalbL]

It's been quoted many times in the press. Most recently he said, "Community Boards do not have the final word." Previously he instructed DOT to ignore anything communities say when it is in regard to Vision Zero and DOT believes safety is at stake. Now that DOT tied SBS to Vision Zero, that gives them carte blanche to move ahead with it even if all communities oppose it.

 

Communities also want increased safety and believe the median bus stops will make the boulevard more dangerous and will not increase safety. But what only matters according to deBlasio is DOT's opinion that SBS makes the street safer. Originally DOT said SBS and Vision Zero were completely separate. That meant DOT had to listen to the communities. But since it is now a Vision Zero Program, the opinion of the communities no longer matter. This is evidenced by DOT's response to a question last year from the Woodhaven Residents Block Association who asked what will happen if all the communities oppose SBS. The response was that you are getting it anyway.

 

So the question now his how much will we get? If there are no federal moneys, how much will $10 million buy out of the planned $400 million project? DOT is making it seem that most of the project will still be completed which is clearly not possible without most of the money.

 

well their only option is to sue is all i can think of, it is bull that they it is being forced down their throats

[BrooklynBus]

well their only option is to sue is all i can think of, it is bull that they it is being forced down their throats

Of course it is bull. But suing costs money unless someone is willing to do it pro bono. The same thing happened on Queens Blvd. Rego Park did not want the bike lanes extended into their Board and DOT is doing it anyway. In my area a bike lane was put in 13 years ago without even informing the Board. They have been trying to get rid of it ever since without any success. They even suggested it be moved over one block where it would be in a safer location, but DOT refuses to move it.

[RailRunRob]

The M86 only has the fare prepayment. I believe only one bus stop was eliminated so all the improvements in running time are due to paying your fare beforehand. At one of the meetings for the M79 SBS, my friend asked how much time the M86 saves. The answer was an average of 1.8 minutes. When asked what the time savings was for rush hours only, the MTA refused to answer. Why? Was it no better? Hardly seems worth the expense. M86 ridership also dropped. The Atlantic Avenue bus stop for SBS will be 600 feet from the transfer point. That's not nearby.

 

It is my understanding that with contactless payment you just tap your card or your phone near one of the doors where you are entering and that paper receipts are no longer necessary. If so, why would you need fare kiosks anymore?

 

Just seeing this hard to keep track of threads sometime's. Well that depends on which variant of RF were talking about? NFC or RFID? NFC (Tap to pay) is a few inches vs feet with a battery-boosted RFID EasyPay. Cards are Tap so you'd have slower boardings each rider would have to be cm's from the reader. For SBS it would still make sense to validate before boarding IMO. Plus you would have someone paying with coin that fall back would have to still be in place with some type of kiosk.

Seem's NYC is using London tech for the payment platform. Cubic developed that which ironically is the same company that created the MetroCard back in 1990-91. So this is the same tech in place on other systems.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I definitely support paperless receipts. I get sick of carrying around those silly slips of paper from the M86.

[BrooklynBus]

It's very fair.  You continue to overlook the fact that the majority of the population here uses public transportation.  This city has to be pro transit first given the sheer amount of people that live here.  Congestion is worsening like never before here.  In fact I'd argue that we're behind because we haven't taken a harder line with drivers.  Look at how much better things are in Europe in places like London.  It's ridiculous that we have people running to cars in this city in part because of our transit system is a joke.  We have to start somewhere and I still strongly favor congestion pricing and anything else that puts transit riders first.  If you want to drive here you should pay an arm and a leg to do so, and the pain should be spread across the board equally.  Norway is moving towards electric cars in 2025, and will ban gas cars.  What are we doing to curb the use of cars and pollution? Absolutely nothing.  Gas is cheap and everyone is running to their cars clogging up the roads.  You can't get anywhere these days.  We have a finite amount of capacity for roads, and thus we have to maximize that accordingly, and having people in gas guzzlers with one person in a four door car is doing the complete opposite.

You can talk generalities all you want. How great BRT is all over the world. That doesn't make it great for Woodhaven Boulevard which is the subject of this discussion. Last I heard we live in a democracy. You don't favor 20 percent while ignoring the needs of 80 percent. Any good plan helps more than it hurts.

 

If each car loses only five minutes (many stand to lose 20 to 40 minutes), each bus passenger must save 23 minutes just for the plan to break even. That clearly will not happen. Only 11,000 daily bus riders will benefit significantly (like saving 10 or 15 minutes) while 150,000 will lose anywhere between one minute and 45 minutes.

[BrooklynBus]

Just seeing this hard to keep track of threads sometime's. Well that depends on which variant of RF were talking about? NFC or RFID? NFC (Tap to pay) is a few inches vs feet with a battery-boosted RFID EasyPay. Cards are Tap so you'd have slower boardings each rider would have to be cm's from the reader. For SBS it would still make sense to validate before boarding IMO. Plus you would have someone paying with coin that fall back would have to still be in place with some type of kiosk.

Seem's NYC is using London tech for the payment platform. Cubic developed that which ironically is the same company that created the MetroCard back in 1990-91. So this is the same tech in place on other systems.

You also have to consider cost. Each SBS station costs $200,000 for fare kiosks. Maybe it is worth it to tap to pay even if it is slightly slower. Don't forget they still would be entering using three doors versus one. So it still would be three times quicker than. On-SBS boarding. Maybe they just don't allow paying with coins on SBS to avoid fare kiosks. How many use coins anyway these days? 5 percent?

[RailRunRob]

I definitely support paperless receipts. I get sick of carrying around those silly slips of paper from the M86.

I don't see a reason why you couldn't pay for your SBS ride from an App fully. Tap option could be a fallback for people with cards slips would still be needed there.