Declining bus ridership in NYC due to improved subway service, MTA official claims

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Instead of the MTA having improved service on the B41, they basically surrendered to the dollar cab industry.... It is amazing that I'm now hard-pressed to see an actual van running along Flatbush.... Now all I see area actual minibuses - and to be specific, minibuses that used to run on MCAT routes (out in Middlesex county in Jersey)..... And it seems like they're a little more frequent than the vans were!

 

Basically, the MTA is doing the opposite of bothering to address the repercussions of their own ignorance/negligence.... I, to an extent, see this whole thing with the influx of taxi services (which are in competition w/ NYC taxi's), as what's going on with the dollar cab industry....

 

When public transportation shows any sign of possibly losing out to the taxicab industry, it's a huge problem...  I'm not so sure the MTA can gain w/e lost bus riders back that are now resorting to cab services; instilling SBS isn't going to do the trick either.... They're going to have to hope for newfound ridership (basically, through newfound developments) on the buses - if they even care to.... What I am noticing, is that the (what I call) "new & improved" craze of SBS has died down, and folks are realizing that it's not the bread & butter they once saw it as.... I won't call SBS a fad exactly, but the "wow" factor has vanquished..... I'm not hearing much of any waxing poetic of SBS these days on any large enough scale..... It's eventually what happens when normalcy kicks in anyway...

Just yesterday I was on 3rd Avenue waiting for the express bus. In the short time that I waited, there were three taxis that pulled up. One did a drop-off, and two did pick-ups. People want to just leave their apartments and go.

[SubwayGuy]

I can't fully concur with this part in bold here.... The last thing we should be talking about is discouraging bus ridership in any capacity, even if the catchment area of the subway is expanded..... It ignores the bus riders that are taking said bus routes for short distances, or embarking/disembarking at bus stops that aren't at subway stops....

 

.....And the idea of taking buses off the road, when there are FAR more cars on the road that contribute to street traffic (even if buses physically take up more space [length-wise]) I wouldn't even conclude as even a small victory.... It's negligible, and quite frankly, counter-productive....

 

The point is to discourage people making shorter trips from using buses at all, as this is one of the leading causes of delays on routes. Seriously, since the "bus to subway" and "subway to bus transfer" how many people do you notice, particularly in Manhattan, boarding crosstown bus routes to go 2 blocks? The farebox recovery on these trips for the MTA is zero due to the free transfer yet these short trips cause significant delays to the passengers taking the crosstown bus who need to make longer trips. These are walking distance trips and should not impact people on bus routes. The same is true of many of the higher density routes in the Bronx...the Bx12 by Fordham/Grand Concourse. The Bx19 from the hub to 149/Concourse when you can take the 2 or 5. And there are ways routes can be reworked too, to the benefit of commuters. Cabs make a fortune taking people going to Manhattan (speaking of the Bx19) across the 145 St. bridge, because who can wait for 5 bunched up buses at capacity 10 minutes away when you need to get in ASAP? By looking at ridership patterns, I'm sure there's a way to add redundancy between "the hub" and Riverbank state park by short turning some buses. The problem is so many bus routes harken back to a different era, or are a hodgepodge of routes from that era, and aim to be too many things to too many people. The longer a route is, the more prone it is to bunching, and the less able it is to get back "in place" (even if given a dropoff only run) it will be the more it travels on high traffic corridors. This basic fact is why so many routes are seen as so unreliable. Hence why I say reducing service where there is redundancy with subway, as a shorter route that is more reliable would better serve the people who need it the most.

 

Having fewer stops would accommodate this also, as would placing crosstown bus route stops in the center of blocks (which allows the MTA to eliminate one bus stop per crosstown route), and avoids two bad situations for traffic: #1 being where the bus can't leave a stop until all passengers have boarded and the light turns green (because if the light is red, more people will come running, preventing the bus from leaving...this is especially disastrous at areas where there is a nearby subway that can unleash a whole bunch of people at once), and #2 being where a bus has to wait to cross an intersection because the bus stop is immediately on the other side, and there is already a bus in it, and entering the intersection will block the intersection. Placing stops in the center of long crosstown blocks avoids both of these scenarios and eliminates one stop per route.

 

Obviously, there are exceptions (like people with disabilities, or elderly people with a lot of bags), but in general less loading time = shorter trips which is a way of improving the service in and of itself...and if you make short trips more undesirable, only those who truly need them will take them.

 

Less people per bus is not a bad thing during the day, but at night, service must be increased (publicly so) to steal back ridership from horrendous companies like Uber that overcharge significantly for rides but are seen as a more viable alternative to waiting 40 minutes to an hour for a bus that may not actually arrive when it's supposed to, or providing no service at all because the bus route isn't 24 hours.

 

People who drive are going to drive regardless, many come from upstate, NJ, or LI, or work hours where commuter railroads are not feasible. The biggest change to this is that there should be more parking garages in general in NYC, to eventually facilitate a citywide change to residents and commercial vehicles only street parking...especially overnight...which would both combat rampant insurance fraud in NYC, as well as reduce the # of vehicles on the road. You won't have out of city drivers circling looking for parking if they have to go to a garage, it'll be easier to park for city drivers, and the high cost of parking garages will serve as a further deterrent to those from out of region who have other commuting options from driving in. Likewise, this would be far easier to implement than hair-brained "congestion pricing". Also, all parking garages should have an NYC resident rate, and a non-resident rate, further discouraging insurance fraud, and reducing the cost of parking to people who live here who already pay high housing costs.

[Interested Rider]

Select Bus Service is just a cheap method to collect federal dollars and I agree with other posters that the service  has gotten worse. It adds absolutely nothing to the service levels and is designed to cover the MTA when it comes to cutting service. The surrender of the B/41 to the cab industry is not the only place where it is happening and may I add the B/36 at Sheepshead Bay Station where the cabs were blocking the street was the primary reason that the route was changed that I just found out a day ago. That in addition to the phony Vision Zero idea from the mayor is destroying the route (again), I might add as who wants to wait at a deserted stop at night so who benefits from this change, the cab industry.

We are no longer living with a government that took direction from the bottom (the voters and the employees for instance) but one that is now a rigid, top down structure. Just look at some of the proposals that have been discussed on the forum and I question how they ever saw the light of day. Just by looking at it (the removal of the garbage cans for example), I can tell that it did not come from the bottom (i.e.the employees) but from.some paper pusher who never worked outside of his secure cubicle and who knows nothing about people other than the ones he works with there. Now take the same logic and look at the issue of better bus service  and we see the exact same thing as we are no longer living in a democratic society, but a bureaucratic society or to quote Mark Levin, "we are living in a post-constitutional society. Everyone who posts here can point to rules that make no sense but since it came down from our Mount Olympus, it must be followed. Please forgive me if I sound angry and frustrated with the MTA (and other agencies I might add), it is because we are losing our fundamental right to be heard and have government work for us, not for a privileged group of people, bureaucrats who were never elected by us but yet have the power to destroy our way of life. 

[B35 via Church]

The point is to discourage people making shorter trips from using buses at all, as this is one of the leading causes of delays on routes. Seriously, since the "bus to subway" and "subway to bus transfer" how many people do you notice, particularly in Manhattan, boarding crosstown bus routes to go 2 blocks? The farebox recovery on these trips for the MTA is zero due to the free transfer yet these short trips cause significant delays to the passengers taking the crosstown bus who need to make longer trips. These are walking distance trips and should not impact people on bus routes. The same is true of many of the higher density routes in the Bronx...the Bx12 by Fordham/Grand Concourse. The Bx19 from the hub to 149/Concourse when you can take the 2 or 5.

 

And there are ways routes can be reworked too, to the benefit of commuters. Cabs make a fortune taking people going to Manhattan (speaking of the Bx19) across the 145 St. bridge, because who can wait for 5 bunched up buses at capacity 10 minutes away when you need to get in ASAP? By looking at ridership patterns, I'm sure there's a way to add redundancy between "the hub" and Riverbank state park by short turning some buses. The problem is so many bus routes harken back to a different era, or are a hodgepodge of routes from that era, and aim to be too many things to too many people. The longer a route is, the more prone it is to bunching, and the less able it is to get back "in place" (even if given a dropoff only run) it will be the more it travels on high traffic corridors. This basic fact is why so many routes are seen as so unreliable. Hence why I say reducing service where there is redundancy with subway, as a shorter route that is more reliable would better serve the people who need it the most.

Service needs to be less frequent on lines that mirror subways, and on top of it, riders should somehow be discouraged from making short trips on buses; not only on the routes that mirror subways, but, at all/period? I don't see the point of penalizing folks like that.... The one advantage a bus even has over the subway is that actual stops are placed closer to one another (yes, there are cases where stops are simply too close, which is another issue).... So let's somehow take that away from riders & leave them with not only less service, but to ride the buses for longer distances & backtrack on top of it (because you're not going to get folks on a wide enough scale to do all this extra walking).... That to me is an indirect way of having buses (and less of them at that) "competing" with subways, with which the bus would lose out almost every single time..... The forcing of people onto subways in this city is the crux of the problem now & I'm not seeing why that should be exacerbated....

 

To answer your question, little to none - But let me be clear, when I say short trips (although it is technically inclusive) I'm not solely talking about 2 blocks (that would be the extreme case & the easiest to shoot down).... 1/4 to 1/2 mile I'd constitute as being short trips on a bus....

 

I'm not of the ilk that subway service should be the automatic norm' when getting around in this city, so to convey to me that folks should start taking trains for one stop, over a bus for 3 or 4 (or however many stops there are b/w the hub & the concourse....or b/w the Fordham plz/Fordham RR & the concourse) goes in one ear & out the other.... I'm not about taking the subway first, I'm about taking whatever mode suits your specific need - and if it happens to be either mode, then shit, have a happy at either... one.... It's why you'll never catch me saying the MTA should start cutting service on subways to try to make bus service more appealing by increasing service on it/them....

 

As far as reworking routes, you'll get no argument from me on that one.... The MTA is not progressive at all when it comes to modernizing bus routes.... Adding a bunch of dinky shuttles to an antiquated bus network isn't exactly what I'd call progression...

 

Having fewer stops would accommodate this also, as would placing crosstown bus route stops in the center of blocks (which allows the MTA to eliminate one bus stop per crosstown route), and avoids two bad situations for traffic: #1 being where the bus can't leave a stop until all passengers have boarded and the light turns green (because if the light is red, more people will come running, preventing the bus from leaving...this is especially disastrous at areas where there is a nearby subway that can unleash a whole bunch of people at once), and #2 being where a bus has to wait to cross an intersection because the bus stop is immediately on the other side, and there is already a bus in it, and entering the intersection will block the intersection. Placing stops in the center of long crosstown blocks avoids both of these scenarios and eliminates one stop per route.

 

Obviously, there are exceptions (like people with disabilities, or elderly people with a lot of bags), but in general less loading time = shorter trips which is a way of improving the service in and of itself...and if you make short trips more undesirable, only those who truly need them will take them.

 

Less people per bus is not a bad thing during the day, but at night, service must be increased (publicly so) to steal back ridership from horrendous companies like Uber that overcharge significantly for rides but are seen as a more viable alternative to waiting 40 minutes to an hour for a bus that may not actually arrive when it's supposed to, or providing no service at all because the bus route isn't 24 hours.

I have zero problem with eliminating bus stops that are quite frankly, too damn close to each other.... I would much favor that over cutting service on bus routes that mirror the subway, because they happen to parallel the subway.... As for placing x-town bus stops in the center of the block? I haven't given any real thought about that, but on the surface, it's something that sounds like that would exacerbate the flow of traffic in Manhattan.... Then again, that whole waiting at the light because another bus is in the stop (at the corner) I personally find irritating, as a driver & a commuter on the trailing bus, so IDK, maybe you're onto something with that central placement of bus stops on blocks....

 

People who drive are going to drive regardless, many come from upstate, NJ, or LI, or work hours where commuter railroads are not feasible. The biggest change to this is that there should be more parking garages in general in NYC, to eventually facilitate a citywide change to residents and commercial vehicles only street parking...especially overnight...which would both combat rampant insurance fraud in NYC, as well as reduce the # of vehicles on the road. You won't have out of city drivers circling looking for parking if they have to go to a garage, it'll be easier to park for city drivers, and the high cost of parking garages will serve as a further deterrent to those from out of region who have other commuting options from driving in. Likewise, this would be far easier to implement than hair-brained "congestion pricing". Also, all parking garages should have an NYC resident rate, and a non-resident rate, further discouraging insurance fraud, and reducing the cost of parking to people who live here who already pay high housing costs.

It is understood that parking is a major problem in the city... There are far more cars than available curb side parking spots.... I personally am not fond of parking garages (for reasons I won't get into), but the lack of them in this city is most certainly apparent....

My issue is the taking of city buses off the road, which benefit city residents, to somehow facilitate out of towners that choose to drive here (for work, play, education, or w/e other reasons)...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The thing about putting bus stops in the center of block is on some streets that isn't feasible because you have bus stops all over the place. You could combine stops, but given how long some lines already are, that may not work well.

[danielhg121]

I doubt if there is a bus shelter, there aint no way MTA is gonna move it unless its a valid reason.

 

 

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[checkmatechamp13]

To answer your question, little to none - But let me be clear, when I say short trips (although it is technically inclusive) I'm not solely talking about 2 blocks (that would be the extreme case & the easiest to shoot down).... 1/4 to 1/2 mile I'd constitute as being short trips on a bus....

 

I think he's talking about 2 crosstown blocks, that would be about 1/4 mile.

 

And I do agree that cutting bus service for the sake of having people walk/take the subway more is going to backfire. Yeah, some of those people going a couple of crosstown blocks will decide to just walk, but you still have the dwell times from the remaining people who need to go further distances, who will now be spread out over fewer buses. (And then the question becomes, what happens when some of those people get fed up with waiting and decide to walk the full 1-2 miles of their trip?)

 

Yeah, people are capable of walking a few miles. But the question is: In a city dense enough to support a good transit network, why should they?

[BrooklynBus]

The problem with putting bus stops in the center of the block is that it makes transferring that much more inconvenient and your chance of missing a bus is greater.

The problem with putting bus stops in the center of the block is that it makes transferring that much more inconvenient and your chance of missing a bus is greater.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The problem with putting bus stops in the center of the block is that it makes transferring that much more inconvenient and your chance of missing a bus is greater.

The problem with putting bus stops in the center of the block is that it makes transferring that much more inconvenient and your chance of missing a bus is greater.

While I agree, I still think it needs to be examined across the city.  I for one get sick of seeing buses wait at green lights because they don't have enough room to pull into the stop OR the lead guy doesn't pull in enough.  It's like some of these guys don't use common sense.  You know there's a bus behind you so pull in!  It slows down service considerably when you have this going on at every bus stop, but that's another example of some guys not giving a damn. I also think that these drivers need to undergo more training.  I am sick of everybody doing their own thing.  We need more uniformity in how buses work, so that means ALL drivers should be pulling into the curb and kneeling where necessary.  All of the stupid things that go on with buses just aren't an issue on Metro-North and one reason for that is those guys (generally speaking) seem to be better trained and more professional.  Throwing these B/Os to the wolves when they barely know the routes is not good for anyone.  They should know ALL of the routes (no reason passengers should have to guide drivers) and where the bus stops are located, and the punishment for skipping passengers should be raised.  Discrimination against passengers has to be taken more seriously than what it is.  I would go with a three strikes and you're out rule.  I don't think these guys need have cameras on them 24/7 but there has to be a way to ensure that they're all doing their jobs the way that they're supposed to.  

[BrooklynBus]

While I agree, I still think it needs to be examined across the city.  I for one get sick of seeing buses wait at green lights because they don't have enough room to pull into the stop OR the lead guy doesn't pull in enough.  It's like some of these guys don't use common sense.  You know there's a bus behind you so pull in!  It slows down service considerably when you have this going on at every bus stop, but that's another example of some guys not giving a damn. I also think that these drivers need to undergo more training.  I am sick of everybody doing their own thing.  We need more uniformity in how buses work, so that means ALL drivers should be pulling into the curb and kneeling where necessary.  All of the stupid things that go on with buses just aren't an issue on Metro-North and one reason for that is those guys (generally speaking) seem to be better trained and more professional.  Throwing these B/Os to the wolves when they barely know the routes is not good for anyone.  They should know ALL of the routes (no reason passengers should have to guide drivers) and where the bus stops are located, and the punishment for skipping passengers should be raised.  Discrimination against passengers has to be taken more seriously than what it is.  I would go with a three strikes and you're out rule.  I don't think these guys need have cameras on them 24/7 but there has to be a way to ensure that they're all doing their jobs the way that they're supposed to.

 

Sounds like the delays you are talking about are because the bus stops were relocated to the far side. Maybe at those problem locations the MTA needs to make them near side again or have one route stop far side and the other near side or lengthen the bus stop.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Sounds like the delays you are talking about are because the bus stops were relocated to the far side. Maybe at those problem locations the MTA needs to make them near side again or have one route stop far side and the other near side or lengthen the bus stop.

They need to lengthen the bus stops.  If only one artic can fit then that's a problem.  They certainly did that for the M86 stops. You can have two buses pull in at just about all of them that I can think of.

[danielhg121]

Sometimes the 2nd bus pulls ahead of the first one (alongside) and lets off the passengers then. But sometimes that delays the first bus because he can't pull out so he has to wait for all the passengers to reach the curb before he pulls off.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

[SubwayGuy]

Service needs to be less frequent on lines that mirror subways, and on top of it, riders should somehow be discouraged from making short trips on buses; not only on the routes that mirror subways, but, at all/period? I don't see the point of penalizing folks like that.... The one advantage a bus even has over the subway is that actual stops are placed closer to one another (yes, there are cases where stops are simply too close, which is another issue).... So let's somehow take that away from riders & leave them with not only less service, but to ride the buses for longer distances & backtrack on top of it (because you're not going to get folks on a wide enough scale to do all this extra walking).... That to me is an indirect way of having buses (and less of them at that) "competing" with subways, with which the bus would lose out almost every single time..... The forcing of people onto subways in this city is the crux of the problem now & I'm not seeing why that should be exacerbated....

 

To answer your question, little to none - But let me be clear, when I say short trips (although it is technically inclusive) I'm not solely talking about 2 blocks (that would be the extreme case & the easiest to shoot down).... 1/4 to 1/2 mile I'd constitute as being short trips on a bus....

 

I'm not of the ilk that subway service should be the automatic norm' when getting around in this city, so to convey to me that folks should start taking trains for one stop, over a bus for 3 or 4 (or however many stops there are b/w the hub & the concourse....or b/w the Fordham plz/Fordham RR & the concourse) goes in one ear & out the other.... I'm not about taking the subway first, I'm about taking whatever mode suits your specific need - and if it happens to be either mode, then shit, have a happy at either... one.... It's why you'll never catch me saying the MTA should start cutting service on subways to try to make bus service more appealing by increasing service on it/them....

 

As far as reworking routes, you'll get no argument from me on that one.... The MTA is not progressive at all when it comes to modernizing bus routes.... Adding a bunch of dinky shuttles to an antiquated bus network isn't exactly what I'd call progression...

 

I have zero problem with eliminating bus stops that are quite frankly, too damn close to each other.... I would much favor that over cutting service on bus routes that mirror the subway, because they happen to parallel the subway.... As for placing x-town bus stops in the center of the block? I haven't given any real thought about that, but on the surface, it's something that sounds like that would exacerbate the flow of traffic in Manhattan.... Then again, that whole waiting at the light because another bus is in the stop (at the corner) I personally find irritating, as a driver & a commuter on the trailing bus, so IDK, maybe you're onto something with that central placement of bus stops on blocks....

 

It is understood that parking is a major problem in the city... There are far more cars than available curb side parking spots.... I personally am not fond of parking garages (for reasons I won't get into), but the lack of them in this city is most certainly apparent....

My issue is the taking of city buses off the road, which benefit city residents, to somehow facilitate out of towners that choose to drive here (for work, play, education, or w/e other reasons)...

 

Again, this is referring to lines that mirror subway routes in the most crowded corridors. How many times do you see someone get on the BX12 at Fordham/Jerome, and get off at University? Or get the BX9 at Bailey and get off at Broadway? The time it takes to wait for the bus and ride it through heavy traffic during rush hour could have been spent walking. Since buses have much slower loading and unloading than trains, when several people do this on each bus at each pair of stops for an entire day's worth of runs, the delays add up. Obviously, if someone is elderly or has a disability then have at it, but the goal is to improve the average speed of the bus. If you improve the average speed of the bus, you reduce the round trip time. If you reduce the round trip time, you reduce the number of buses needed along a route to maintain the same headway as previously. This is what I mean by "taking buses off the road".

 

I am NOT suggesting reducing service frequency in any neighborhood that is seen as bus dependent...on the contrary, I am suggesting making service better for those people through this.

 

Traffic flow in Manhattan is already terrible, putting bus stops in the center of blocks allows bus only lanes (which are spreading, and, frankly, not a bad idea during rush hours) to be more efficient, and frankly, transfers are the least of anyone's concerns. If the service is better, it'll be more like the subway during rush hours...miss your transfer but the next one is right behind. At night, when there's no traffic, then buses can stop at corners for dropoffs through Request-A-Stop which eliminates the issue when there is no traffic.

 

There are certain key corridors that are an issue in each borough...this is where these initiatives should be targeted.

[B35 via Church]

While I agree, I still think it needs to be examined across the city.  I for one get sick of seeing buses wait at green lights because they don't have enough room to pull into the stop OR the lead guy doesn't pull in enough.  It's like some of these guys don't use common sense.  You know there's a bus behind you so pull in!  It slows down service considerably when you have this going on at every bus stop, but that's another example of some guys not giving a damn. I also think that these drivers need to undergo more training.  I am sick of everybody doing their own thing.  We need more uniformity in how buses work, so that means ALL drivers should be pulling into the curb and kneeling where necessary.  All of the stupid things that go on with buses just aren't an issue on Metro-North and one reason for that is those guys (generally speaking) seem to be better trained and more professional.  Throwing these B/Os to the wolves when they barely know the routes is not good for anyone.  They should know ALL of the routes (no reason passengers should have to guide drivers) and where the bus stops are located, and the punishment for skipping passengers should be raised.  Discrimination against passengers has to be taken more seriously than what it is.  I would go with a three strikes and you're out rule.  I don't think these guys need have cameras on them 24/7 but there has to be a way to ensure that they're all doing their jobs the way that they're supposed to.  

Three? You should have been on the S48 I was on this past saturday.... This driver blew past a wheelchair passenger at the stop after Harbor Plaza heading EB/towards the ferry (he was the only one at the stop).... Passengers cursed that b/o out something proper... Quite sure one of those baby mammas uploaded it on their FB's/twitter's, because I did see phones out....

 

Anyway, one thing I've grown quite tired of (that I've never really brought up on here), is being told by a b/o to get off at some stop short of the terminal, when I want to get off at the terminal.... This has happened to me countless times over the years & it only happens when I'm the last/sole person still on the bus....  Quite sure this has happened to others as well, which raises the question, how common a practice is this..... I mean, if the b/o asks, that's one thing, but when I'm told I gotta get off (practically being thrown off the bus), I'm like wtf is that really about....

 

Again, this is referring to lines that mirror subway routes in the most crowded corridors.

 

How many times do you see someone get on the BX12 at Fordham/Jerome, and get off at University? Or get the BX9 at Bailey and get off at Broadway? The time it takes to wait for the bus and ride it through heavy traffic during rush hour could have been spent walking. Since buses have much slower loading and unloading than trains, when several people do this on each bus at each pair of stops for an entire day's worth of runs, the delays add up. Obviously, if someone is elderly or has a disability then have at it, but the goal is to improve the average speed of the bus....

Of course the avg. speed the buses are traveling needs improvement & should be the end goal....

At the same time (using the Bx12 example), I'm not seeing the difference with:

 

- Few to no one on the Bx12 is going about [embarking @ Jerome & disembarking at University], and...

- Some other rider [embarking the Bx12 at some point east of Jerome, disembarking at University]...

 

On a typical Inwood bound trip, someone is bound to get off at University & without a doubt, the Bx12 is picking up at Fordham ....

 

.....Obviously, if someone is elderly or has a disability then have at it, but the goal is to improve the average speed of the bus. If you improve the average speed of the bus, you reduce the round trip time. If you reduce the round trip time, you reduce the number of buses needed along a route to maintain the same headway as previously. This is what I mean by "taking buses off the road".

 

I am NOT suggesting reducing service frequency in any neighborhood that is seen as bus dependent...on the contrary, I am suggesting making service better for those people through this.

To be frank, I don't think riders care much if the MTA is using less physical buses along some route to maintain the same headway....

 

Now that you clarify what you meant.... Well, as long as service isn't being cut, cut, cut just because a bus route mirrors some subway line, I have no issue.... Although I scoffed at one of the reasons given (providing service to Brooklyn Bridge Park), I'm glad that they didn't ax the B25... I personally don't care for the fulton av line (and before anyone asks, seediness has zero to do it)....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Three? You should have been on the S48 I was on this past saturday.... This driver blew past a wheelchair passenger at the stop after Harbor Plaza heading EB/towards the ferry (he was the only one at the stop).... Passengers cursed that b/o out something proper... Quite sure one of those baby mammas uploaded it on their FB's/twitter's, because I did see phones out....

 

Anyway, one thing I've grown quite tired of (that I've never really brought up on here), is being told by a b/o to get off at some stop short of the terminal, when I want to get off at the terminal.... This has happened to me countless times over the years & it only happens when I'm the last/sole person still on the bus....  Quite sure this has happened to others as well, which raises the question, how common a practice is this..... I mean, if the b/o asks, that's one thing, but when I'm told I gotta get off (practically being thrown off the bus), I'm like wtf is that really about....

When going to certain areas of Harlem I would take the bus short distances to avoid walking up hills and I had one driver basically say that he couldn't believe that I was going any further than 145th.  I was always assumed the bus didn't go further, but it does.  The other drivers would just ask and I would confirm, but that's the only time it has happened to me.  What I do is I usually don't even argue.  If the driver is rude, I note the bus# and the time, text myself the info and report it immediately either when I get home or right on the spot if I know I won't be disturbed.  Using the cell phone can be tricky because I've hit the send button in the past by mistake, so I would prefer to be in front of a computer to limit any mistakes.

 

What I have had more than anything are nasty drivers when my Metrocard had a read error.  I had an incident last year when I had a defective Metrocard.  I had refilled the card with yet another express bus pass so that meant two passes were on it. Went to dip the card on the BxM2 to go home and kept getting a read error, so after a while of me dipping and people waiting behind me, I said to the driver, it keeps saying "Read Error" so what would you like me to do?, essentially implying that I was sick of dipping and he should just let me sit down already.  He in turn became snarky talking about you should pay your fare, and told me that I should return the Metrocard wherever I got it from.  So I told him flat out in a very calm voice that I was going to take a seat because he was clearly being a jerk.  I made sure I noted everything, took pictures of my Metrocard receipts and attached them to my complaint.  I haven't seen him since.  I hate to say it, but most of the rude drivers tend to be black males. It's like they are mad at the world and they make a point to be aggressive with young males (of all racial backgrounds; I've seen black, white and Hispanic males alike treated very poorly when riding on the express bus, and it's something that I take seriously because it has to stop), so I make a point to make sure that I report them.  Some of them are just nasty with everyone.  I once saw a driver (black guy) slam the door right in the face of a white woman as she tried to get on.  She caught up with him at another stop (someone had dropped her off) and he let her on and didn't even apologize.  I was so annoyed by the incident that I made sure I filed a complaint on her behalf.  It's another reason that I don't ride as much.  Overall most drivers are okay and I am really cool with several black and Latino drivers, but there quite a few of them that are just horrible. I'm sure that is also one reason why some folks don't use the buses either. When I take Metro-North, overall the workers are much more professional and courteous. 

[checkmatechamp13]

Three? You should have been on the S48 I was on this past saturday.... This driver blew past a wheelchair passenger at the stop after Harbor Plaza heading EB/towards the ferry (he was the only one at the stop).... Passengers cursed that b/o out something proper... Quite sure one of those baby mammas uploaded it on their FB's/twitter's, because I did see phones out....

 

I remember once, I was on the eastbound S74 going through Richmondtown, and the B/O goes right by an older woman in a motorized wheelchair. She catches up to him at the light and he shrugs and says "I didn't see you" and then pulls off when the light turns green. (And she was wearing a reflective vest too, I'm wondering if he or another B/O tried to pull that stunt in the past). 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I remember once, I was on the eastbound S74 going through Richmondtown, and the B/O goes right by an older woman in a motorized wheelchair. She catches up to him at the light and he shrugs and says "I didn't see you" and then pulls off when the light turns green. (And she was wearing a reflective vest too, I'm wondering if he or another B/O tried to pull that stunt in the past). 

That is something else that I've found troubling.  I think that has improved, but I recall a few instances where disabled people were bypassed (particularly the case for SI buses) or told that the wheelchair lift was broken purposely so that they driver didn't have to deal with it.  We have quite a few disabled folks in wheelchairs in Riverdale and so far I haven't witnessed any discrimination.  I think that is something that the has tried to remedy by taking stronger measures (and rightfully so). The organization that represents disabled people has also become much more vocal about such instances which has helped.  

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

I'm agreeing with B35 on the grounds that you should not be actively trying to discourage short bus trips however some of these short bus trips are starting/ending in ways that slows down service rather significantly and that's where SubwayGuy has a point. I'm looking at trips where you'll have one person (able bodied at that) board a bus from a lightly utilized stop that's only a couple of blocks away from a heavily utilized stop where multiple people are boarding and exiting. The bus having to stop for that one person just before a group of passengers is getting ready to exit does slow down the bus and make the ride a little more aggravating for the passengers on board. Vice versa is true for passengers who exit the bus from a stop just after a high turnover stop. The issue you get into with discouraging short trips is not just dealing with the elderly and disabled, short trips are good for the bottom line and for keeping capacity available. Someone who take a bus only for a couple of stops frees up his/her seat quickly for another boarding passenger to take which means additional fares can be taken on a single trip without overloading capacity.  I would want more of that if I were operating a transit system. I think the best idea with regards to this is standardized 3-4 block stop spacing.

 

I also don't see how the Bx12 is used as an example of short trips negatively impacting service since almost every SBS stop (those are half a mile apart on average) is heavily utilized and SBS usage dwarfs that of the local. The main issue there is the MTA not running enough service to ensure buses aren't consistently sardine packed. Even on off-peak hours your chances of boarding an SBS sardine can are not so low. Any rider taking the bus the length of one SBS stop is not getting in anyone's way since there will be plenty of folks getting on/off at whatever stop is in question.

[Around the Horn]

While I agree, I still think it needs to be examined across the city.  I for one get sick of seeing buses wait at green lights because they don't have enough room to pull into the stop OR the lead guy doesn't pull in enough.  It's like some of these guys don't use common sense.  You know there's a bus behind you so pull in!  It slows down service considerably when you have this going on at every bus stop, but that's another example of some guys not giving a damn. 

 

Colonial Road and Bay Ridge Avenue, every damn morning! Its like the Prevosts have magnets, they always get there in threes, one in the stop, one halfway in the stop, halfway in the intersection and another waiting at the green light, its ridiculous! Countless times I've just missed an train because my B9 got stuck behind an X27 convoy...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Colonial Road and Bay Ridge Avenue, every damn morning! Its like the Prevosts have magnets, they always get there in threes, one in the stop, one halfway in the stop, halfway in the intersection and another waiting at the green light, its ridiculous! Countless times I've just missed an train because my B9 got stuck behind an X27 convoy...

The schedule they have for the X27/X37 is a weird one.  Even though we have the BxM1, 2 and 18 here, they rarely run packed up together like that.  They should consider revising it slightly, especially since there isn't a lot of room for the buses at most stops. I usually get the X27 anywhere along Shore Road and most of the time it's tight just with one Prevost in the stop.

[SubwayGuy]

Of course the avg. speed the buses are traveling needs improvement & should be the end goal....

At the same time (using the Bx12 example), I'm not seeing the difference with:

 

- Few to no one on the Bx12 is going about [embarking @ Jerome & disembarking at University], and...

- Some other rider [embarking the Bx12 at some point east of Jerome, disembarking at University]...

 

On a typical Inwood bound trip, someone is bound to get off at University & without a doubt, the Bx12 is picking up at Fordham ....

 

To be frank, I don't think riders care much if the MTA is using less physical buses along some route to maintain the same headway....

 

Now that you clarify what you meant.... Well, as long as service isn't being cut, cut, cut just because a bus route mirrors some subway line, I have no issue.... Although I scoffed at one of the reasons given (providing service to Brooklyn Bridge Park), I'm glad that they didn't ax the B25... I personally don't care for the fulton av line (and before anyone asks, seediness has zero to do it)....

The riders don't care how many buses the MTA uses, but that frees up buses and costs to deploy elsewhere in areas where service needs to improve.

[B35 via Church]

The riders don't care how many buses the MTA uses, but that frees up buses and costs to deploy elsewhere in areas where service needs to improve.

That logical conclusion I already came to... The question (not exactly aimed at you) is, would the MTA reinvest those resources & costs in improving bus service separate from anything involving SBS?

 

I personally don't see it happening; which is why I'm highly skeptical/concerned about any type of plan that is suggestive of cutting or lessening resources when it comes to buses....

[B35 via Church]

....What I have had more than anything are nasty drivers when my Metrocard had a read error.  I had an incident last year when I had a defective Metrocard.  I had refilled the card with yet another express bus pass so that meant two passes were on it. Went to dip the card on the BxM2 to go home and kept getting a read error, so after a while of me dipping and people waiting behind me, I said to the driver, it keeps saying "Read Error" so what would you like me to do?, essentially implying that I was sick of dipping and he should just let me sit down already.  He in turn became snarky talking about you should pay your fare, and told me that I should return the Metrocard wherever I got it from.  So I told him flat out in a very calm voice that I was going to take a seat because he was clearly being a jerk.  I made sure I noted everything, took pictures of my Metrocard receipts and attached them to my complaint.  I haven't seen him since.  I hate to say it, but most of the rude drivers tend to be black males. It's like they are mad at the world and they make a point to be aggressive with young males (of all racial backgrounds; I've seen black, white and Hispanic males alike treated very poorly when riding on the express bus, and it's something that I take seriously because it has to stop), so I make a point to make sure that I report them.  Some of them are just nasty with everyone.  I once saw a driver (black guy) slam the door right in the face of a white woman as she tried to get on.  She caught up with him at another stop (someone had dropped her off) and he let her on and didn't even apologize.  I was so annoyed by the incident that I made sure I filed a complaint on her behalf.  It's another reason that I don't ride as much.  Overall most drivers are okay and I am really cool with several black and Latino drivers, but there quite a few of them that are just horrible. I'm sure that is also one reason why some folks don't use the buses either. When I take Metro-North, overall the workers are much more professional and courteous. 

I don't get them too often, but when read errors happen on some bus I'm trying to board, I only do two things (used to be three, but I don't carry too much coins on me anymore).... One thing is to keep dipping (no more than like 4 or 5 times) & hope that I get waved on by the b/o..... If I don't get waved on, I back out out of the bus & either commence walking, or hoofing it to the nearest subway.... What I'm not going to do is get into any discourse with a b/o over a faulty card or farebox....

 

I find it interesting that you get into as many lengthy (enough, IMO) exchanges with b/o's as you say you do.... I simply don't want to be bothered like that.... Not to say that I haven't encountered b/o's that have asked questions in the past (such as, when was the last time you used the card, lemme see the back of the card [to check the exp. date, I suppose], did you just come from the subway [not sure why this is asked, but w/e], etc. etc), but again, to avoid much talking these days, I just get off the bus....

 

I find SI bus b/o's in general to be rude a**holes; the local drivers more so than on expresses.... On the express bus, yeah, same deal/issue with the younger black drivers.... I've gotten the mean mugs on the BM's & I give em right back; like, f*** is your problem (they remind me of black cops in this regard; worse than the damn white ones).... But the exp. ops that tend to get under my skin, are the ones (regardless of race) that go above & beyond for women... I'm not talking about senior citizen aged women, but women (that look to be) around our age.... Male passengers however, it's like whatever, f*** you, pay me.... I have actually been on a bus where two women "dressed for 'an' occasion (if you catch my drift) had the kneel lowered for them (20 somethings, I guess)... An old guy (easily over 65) boarded after the fact, and did not get the kneel lowered until after repeated attempts to board.... This was on an x7 (when I used to fan SI expresses after work, when I was still in Manhattan)....

 

Latina b/o's I tend to feel sorry for, they get hit on quite a bit.... Hell, there's this one on the B12, and it seems as if she does the same trip every day.... I personally find ole girl attractive, but I think it's corny as hell to hit on a driver while she's operating a bus....  Now that I bring up female b/o's, ones I don't really see much of anymore are white females.... Wonder if there's anything to it....

 

As for the rails, yeah, MNRR c/r's are generally more professional with it... Separate from w/e their true personalities are, I think a lot of that has to do with MNRR passengers..... You do get professional LIRR c/r's as well, but I think the attitudes & behaviors of the average passenger eventually weigh down on them... Like, why bother going the extra mile (in terms of courteousness).... With which, to be honest, I would agree with...... NJT c/r's professionalism, I'd gauge being somewhere b/w the avg. LIRR & MNRR c/r.... SEPTA [Philadelphia] c/r's (lol) I find to be completely hit or miss with it - either you get the ones that are professional as hell, or ghetto as hell (this includes the t/o btw).... Last time I took the R7, I shit you not, ole girl stepped off the train (to hit some button or something, IDK), took off her jacket, revealing the cropped tank top she had on.... I'm like, what kind of operation y'all got goin on out here.....

 

To sum it up, I find most MTA b/o's have a *whatever* attitude.... Can be a good or a bad thing.... Thing of it is, it's more conspicuous when it's the latter....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I don't get them too often, but when read errors happen on some bus I'm trying to board, I only do two things (used to be three, but I don't carry too much coins on me anymore).... One thing is to keep dipping (no more than like 4 or 5 times) & hope that I get waved on by the b/o..... If I don't get waved on, I back out out of the bus & either commence walking, or hoofing it to the nearest subway.... What I'm not going to do is get into any discourse with a b/o over a faulty card or farebox....

 

I find it interesting that you get into as many lengthy (enough, IMO) exchanges with b/o's as you say you do.... I simply don't want to be bothered like that.... Not to say that I haven't encountered b/o's that have asked questions in the past (such as, when was the last time you used the card, lemme see the back of the card [to check the exp. date, I suppose], did you just come from the subway [not sure why this is asked, but w/e], etc. etc), but again, to avoid much talking these days, I just get off the bus....

 

I find SI bus b/o's in general to be rude a**holes; the local drivers more so than on expresses.... On the express bus, yeah, same deal/issue with the younger black drivers.... I've gotten the mean mugs on the BM's & I give em right back; like, f*** is your problem (they remind me of black cops in this regard; worse than the damn white ones).... But the exp. ops that tend to get under my skin, are the ones (regardless of race) that go above & beyond for women... I'm not talking about senior citizen aged women, but women (that look to be) around our age.... Male passengers however, it's like whatever, f*** you, pay me.... I have actually been on a bus where two women "dressed for 'an' occasion (if you catch my drift) had the kneel lowered for them (20 somethings, I guess)... An old guy (easily over 65) boarded after the fact, and did not get the kneel lowered until after repeated attempts to board.... This was on an x7 (when I used to fan SI expresses after work, when I was still in Manhattan)....

 

Latina b/o's I tend to feel sorry for, they get hit on quite a bit.... Hell, there's this one on the B12, and it seems as if she does the same trip every day.... I personally find ole girl attractive, but I think it's corny as hell to hit on a driver while she's operating a bus....  Now that I bring up female b/o's, ones I don't really see much of anymore are white females.... Wonder if there's anything to it....

 

As for the rails, yeah, MNRR c/r's are generally more professional with it... Separate from w/e their true personalities are, I think a lot of that has to do with MNRR passengers..... You do get professional LIRR c/r's as well, but I think the attitudes & behaviors of the average passenger eventually weigh down on them... Like, why bother going the extra mile (in terms of courteousness).... With which, to be honest, I would agree with...... NJT c/r's professionalism, I'd gauge being somewhere b/w the avg. LIRR & MNRR c/r.... SEPTA [Philadelphia] c/r's (lol) I find to be completely hit or miss with it - either you get the ones that are professional as hell, or ghetto as hell (this includes the t/o btw).... Last time I took the R7, I shit you not, ole girl stepped off the train (to hit some button or something, IDK), took off her jacket, revealing the cropped tank top she had on.... I'm like, what kind of operation y'all got goin on out here.....

 

To sum it up, I find most MTA b/o's have a *whatever* attitude.... Can be a good or a bad thing.... Thing of it is, it's more conspicuous when it's the latter....

I keep dipping because believe it or not, sometimes it actually does work.  What I like to avoid is starting off a brand new express bus pass when the other one isn't finished.  It throws off my timing to buy a new one (I like starting the weekend (Saturday or Sunday) with a new one where possible).  I agree and LOL at everything else you said.

[Deucey]

I'm agreeing with B35 on the grounds that you should not be actively trying to discourage short bus trips however some of these short bus trips are starting/ending in ways that slows down service rather significantly and that's where SubwayGuy has a point. I'm looking at trips where you'll have one person (able bodied at that) board a bus from a lightly utilized stop that's only a couple of blocks away from a heavily utilized stop where multiple people are boarding and exiting. The bus having to stop for that one person just before a group of passengers is getting ready to exit does slow down the bus and make the ride a little more aggravating for the passengers on board. Vice versa is true for passengers who exit the bus from a stop just after a high turnover stop. The issue you get into with discouraging short trips is not just dealing with the elderly and disabled, short trips are good for the bottom line and for keeping capacity available. Someone who take a bus only for a couple of stops frees up his/her seat quickly for another boarding passenger to take which means additional fares can be taken on a single trip without overloading capacity. I would want more of that if I were operating a transit system. I think the best idea with regards to this is standardized 3-4 block stop spacing.

 

I also don't see how the Bx12 is used as an example of short trips negatively impacting service since almost every SBS stop (those are half a mile apart on average) is heavily utilized and SBS usage dwarfs that of the local. The main issue there is the MTA not running enough service to ensure buses aren't consistently sardine packed. Even on off-peak hours your chances of boarding an SBS sardine can are not so low. Any rider taking the bus the length of one SBS stop is not getting in anyone's way since there will be plenty of folks getting on/off at whatever stop is in question.

The problem I have with thought processes like this is that they reek of selfishness.

 

I can sympathize with the thought: let the S52/42 or S40/44 be late with a chance I could miss the ferry, and yes I'm livid that people are getting off at Bay/Slosson or at the SI courthouse, making the bus hit a red light and forcing me to run down Ramp D hoping DOT hasn't shut the doors to the ferry.

 

But they (presumably) paid their fare. And DOT designated that place to be a bus stop for buses, so why shouldn't they use it - even if it's just for two stops?

 

If anything, there are too many bus stops - virtually every other block. IIRC, outside of downtowns, every other system has bus stops spaced at least 1/4 mi apart for locals and 1/2 to a mile (or just at major intersections). But because so many are so close, NYCTA encourages those two/three/four stop hops over walking. Removing some stops may discourage those short hops, but may not save travel time since it means more people boarding and alighting at the remaining ones.

 

So maybe it's time for fare prepayment, all-door boarding and forcing people to fold strollers and not letting the can collectors come on board with their haul.