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Declining bus ridership in NYC due to improved subway service, MTA official claims


Via Garibaldi 8

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If anything, there are too many bus stops - virtually every other block. IIRC, outside of downtowns, every other system has bus stops spaced at least 1/4 mi apart for locals and 1/2 to a mile (or just at major intersections). But because so many are so close, NYCTA encourages those two/three/four stop hops over walking. Removing some stops may discourage those short hops, but may not save travel time since it means more people boarding and alighting at the remaining ones.

 

Like I mentioned, there's the acceleration/deceleration penalty when buses have to make additional stops to pick up 1-2 people.

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The problem I have with thought processes like this is that they reek of selfishness.

 

I can sympathize with the thought: let the S52/42 or S40/44 be late with a chance I could miss the ferry, and yes I'm livid that people are getting off at Bay/Slosson or at the SI courthouse, making the bus hit a red light and forcing me to run down Ramp D hoping DOT hasn't shut the doors to the ferry.

 

But they (presumably) paid their fare. And DOT designated that place to be a bus stop for (MTA) buses, so why shouldn't they use it - even if it's just for two stops?

 

If anything, there are too many bus stops - virtually every other block. IIRC, outside of downtowns, every other system has bus stops spaced at least 1/4 mi apart for locals and 1/2 to a mile (or just at major intersections). But because so many are so close, NYCTA encourages those two/three/four stop hops over walking. Removing some stops may discourage those short hops, but may not save travel time since it means more people boarding and alighting at the remaining ones.

 

So maybe it's time for fare prepayment, all-door boarding and forcing people to fold strollers and not letting the can collectors come on board with their haul.

I've been following this and similar topics for quite a while now and you are one of the few people who've hit the nail on the head. Selfishness plain and simple. Go back and re-read some of these threads spanning a few years and that same attitude rears it's ugly head. It's Surface mass transit, meaning for everyone out there. The same people advocating extending the distance between stops on a local route are sometimes the main chorus singing the praises of speeding up their ride at the expense of everyone else. I'm well aware that there are locations, especially in the outer boroughs, where the stops are too closely spaced. For whatever reasons those stops still exist. Maybe because there are riders who utilize those stops? Maybe conditions in those areas have changed and those "legacy" stops aren't needed any more but that's not up to me to decide nor is it up to someone who is solely focused on his/her agenda. I, too, have traveled around the country and have seen how some of those Surface routes are laid out. There are many cities outside of the Northeast or Midwest where those systems were planned from scratch and that's the system those areas chose to go with. The larger urban systems are usually the result of consolidation. Obviously I'm most familiar with Brooklyn's lines but I'd guess that over 75% of the people riding those buses today don't know why those buses run on those streets or even who set up those routes to begin with. Hint the (MTA) and the NYCTA inherited most of those routes and the Queens routes were also legacy lines, mainly PBL. IMO if the general idea of stretching out of the distance takes hold the (MTA) would lose even more ridership than it has to date and for what benefit? It would appear, at least to me, that instead of taking my local bus to the Hub, Jamaica Avenue, Downtown Brooklyn, Kings Plaza, or Fordham Road and shop after walking 4 blocks to catch it, why not crank up the Civic, Altima, or Focus and slow down Surface transit even more while adding to the congestion. With the almighty Vision Zero in effect I won't have to drag my purchases 3 or 4 blocks in the elements. What I'm getting at, in my roundabout way, is that some folks seem to be ignoring the convenience factor of some of those legacy stops. They were put there for a reason. BTW if anyone believes the decline in bus ridership is due to improved subway service I suggest you contact the (MTA) officials named Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy at the next board meeting. Carry on.

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I've been following this and similar topics for quite a while now and you are one of the few people who've hit the nail on the head. Selfishness plain and simple. Go back and re-read some of these threads spanning a few years and that same attitude rears it's ugly head. It's Surface mass transit, meaning for everyone out there. The same people advocating extending the distance between stops on a local route are sometimes the main chorus singing the praises of speeding up their ride at the expense of everyone else. I'm well aware that there are locations, especially in the outer boroughs, where the stops are too closely spaced. For whatever reasons those stops still exist. Maybe because there are riders who utilize those stops? Maybe conditions in those areas have changed and those "legacy" stops aren't needed any more but that's not up to me to decide nor is it up to someone who is solely focused on his/her agenda. I, too, have traveled around the country and have seen how some of those Surface routes are laid out. There are many cities outside of the Northeast or Midwest where those systems were planned from scratch and that's the system those areas chose to go with. The larger urban systems are usually the result of consolidation. Obviously I'm most familiar with Brooklyn's lines but I'd guess that over 75% of the people riding those buses today don't know why those buses run on those streets or even who set up those routes to begin with. Hint the (MTA) and the NYCTA inherited most of those routes and the Queens routes were also legacy lines, mainly PBL. IMO if the general idea of stretching out of the distance takes hold the (MTA) would lose even more ridership than it has to date and for what benefit? It would appear, at least to me, that instead of taking my local bus to the Hub, Jamaica Avenue, Downtown Brooklyn, Kings Plaza, or Fordham Road and shop after walking 4 blocks to catch it, why not crank up the Civic, Altima, or Focus and slow down Surface transit even more while adding to the congestion. With the almighty Vision Zero in effect I won't have to drag my purchases 3 or 4 blocks in the elements. What I'm getting at, in my roundabout way, is that some folks seem to be ignoring the convenience factor of some of those legacy stops. They were put there for a reason. BTW if anyone believes the decline in bus ridership is due to improved subway service I suggest you contact the (MTA) officials named Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy at the next board meeting. Carry on.

I would argue that most of the people calling for the elimination of stops, don't use the local buses that much. We're examining why ridership is declining and how to speed buses up. Eliminating stops seems like a no-brainer, but do that and they'll always be someone saying well we NEED those stops! Every one of them! That makes improving service almost impossible.
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I would argue that most of the people calling for the elimination of stops, don't use the local buses that much. 

 

Not sure what made you jump to that conclusion, considering you yourself have been calling for elimination of stops to speed up service (which as a frequent bus user I would also generally tend to agree with)

 

I will say that the MTA can be very lazy when it comes to adding stops to extensions of routes: The westbound S93 skips the entrance to CSI, and the S74/78/84 have one stop at Arthur Kill Road and then the next stop is all the way at Bricktown itself, forgetting about the crummy structure of those routes to begin with. And then some of the limited/SBS stops are spaced out too far (e.g. Avenue R on the B44). Generally, I would say there's more cases when the stops are spaced too closely, but at the same time, some of these ridiculous gaps need to be looked into as well.

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Better bus stop spacing is far from a no brainer. Yes it's easy to eliminate stops, but in most cases the remaining stops would be too far from each other. So in most cases, when bus stops are eliminated, new ones have to be created. And that's where the problem lies. It is very difficult for new bus stops to be created without protest particularly on residential streets. The MTA and DOT find it easier to avoid problems than to better serve bus passengers.

 

Also, I believe the savings in acceleration and deceleration to not pick up one or two passengers are exaggerated. It only makes a difference when buses are traveling at 25 or 30 mph, not when doing 10 or 15 mph which is much more likely.

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Not sure what made you jump to that conclusion, considering you yourself have been calling for elimination of stops to speed up service (which as a frequent bus user I would also generally tend to agree with)

 

I will say that the MTA can be very lazy when it comes to adding stops to extensions of routes: The westbound S93 skips the entrance to CSI, and the S74/78/84 have one stop at Arthur Kill Road and then the next stop is all the way at Bricktown itself, forgetting about the crummy structure of those routes to begin with. And then some of the limited/SBS stops are spaced out too far (e.g. Avenue R on the B44). Generally, I would say there's more cases when the stops are spaced too closely, but at the same time, some of these ridiculous gaps need to be looked into as well.

For starters I don't use the local buses regularly. I'm lucky if I use one now once a week. Basically, it's MNRR, the express bus or I walk. It's been a few weeks for me since I last used one. The other people that would likely agree would be subway riders. I mean look at this forum. How many of the users are regular local bus riders vs. subway riders?
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For starters I don't use the local buses regularly. I'm lucky if I use one now once a week. Basically, it's MNRR, the express bus or I walk. It's been a few weeks for me since I last used one. The other people that would likely agree would be subway riders. I mean look at this forum. How many of the users are regular local bus riders vs. subway riders?

 

I would garner that a good portion are both, since in many cases you can't get to the subway without a bus in the first place...

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If that were the case, then I suppose bus ridership shouldn't be on the decline...

It is the case. A minority of the riders will only take a train and not a bus or vice versa. Most who use mass transit use both modes. The reasons for bus usage decline are many, unreliable, too slow, and not directly taking you to your destination are the top three.

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It is the case. A minority of the riders will only take a train and not a bus or vice versa. Most who use mass transit use both modes. The reasons for bus usage decline are many, unreliable, too slow, and not directly taking you to your destination are the top three.

That makes no sense because if that's the case then since subway ridership has been booming over the years, that means the same should be true with bus ridership.  Clearly there's a disconnect somewhere along the way.  

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That makes no sense because if that's the case then since subway ridership has been booming over the years, that means the same should be true with bus ridership.  Clearly there's a disconnect somewhere along the way.  

 

There are two unrelated factors at work here:

 

  • Most transplants are moving to areas that have subway stations within a fifteen minute walk. That's a short enough distance that taking the bus would be a waste of time, and these are most of the new residents in New York, so they boost ridership on top of the natives that are already taking the subway. These people, by and large, do not take the bus, and really have no reason to since all the places they hang out are accessible by subway or a short distance away by foot or bike.
  • In the outer boroughs, the subway is good for going to work (in which case they will take the subway to work), but will take the bus for more local services. Someone living in Fresh Meadows will take the bus to the subway to get to work in Manhattan, but would take a bus or two to do shopping in Flushing on the weekends, for instance. The latter trip is the one that suffers the most due to the traffic slowdown, and the latter trip is also the one that is easier to replace with a car trip; most people in non-subway outer borough neighborhoods have cars, and even dense areas in the outer boroughs generally have sufficient parking. So people are replacing their more local bus-only trips with cars, but still making their commute trips with bus+subway.
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There are two unrelated factors at work here:

 

  • Most transplants are moving to areas that have subway stations within a fifteen minute walk. That's a short enough distance that taking the bus would be a waste of time, and these are most of the new residents in New York, so they boost ridership on top of the natives that are already taking the subway. These people, by and large, do not take the bus, and really have no reason to since all the places they hang out are accessible by subway or a short distance away by foot or bike.
  • In the outer boroughs, the subway is good for going to work (in which case they will take the subway to work), but will take the bus for more local services. Someone living in Fresh Meadows will take the bus to the subway to get to work in Manhattan, but would take a bus or two to do shopping in Flushing on the weekends, for instance. The latter trip is the one that suffers the most due to the traffic slowdown, and the latter trip is also the one that is easier to replace with a car trip; most people in non-subway outer borough neighborhoods have cars, and even dense areas in the outer boroughs generally have sufficient parking. So people are replacing their more local bus-only trips with cars, but still making their commute trips with bus+subway.

 

I would think someone in Fresh Meadows would take the express bus to Manhattan or the local bus to the subway, but DRIVE on weekends.  Queens is very car centric, just as Staten Island is.  But that's my point though... New Yorkers are LEAVING the city and moving elsewhere.  The transplants are moving in and taking the subway and not the bus, so it's hard to argue what you're claiming.  I think a borough wide study should be done to see where bus ridership is decreasing the most.

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That makes no sense because if that's the case then since subway ridership has been booming over the years, that means the same should be true with bus ridership.  Clearly there's a disconnect somewhere along the way.

 

What you are saying makes no sense. Just because subway ridership is booming, that does not mean the same should be true about bus ridership. One of the reasons they would both go up is because of an improvement in the economy. Another is what Bobtehpanda stated that subway/bus users are moving out and are being replaced with those using the subway exclusively. That's where the similarity ends.

 

As I explained, buss are much more unreliable than subways and that discourages ridership. Subways are most unreliable on weekends when there are reroutes and service suspensions. The fact that subways ridership has mostly declined on the weekends recently just proves how important reliability is to ridership.

 

Also, as I stated, every year the bus routing system grows more obsolete because the minuscule number of bus route changes each year do not nearly reflect the numbers of routing changes that are needed. I wrote my masters thesis in 1972 how outdated the Brooklyn bus routing system was. I proposed like fifty route changes that were needed. Mostly independent of that, in the next 45 years, the MTA made about 20 of the changes I recognized were needed back then. One of the changes I recommended in 1972 was to split the B75 which wasn't done until 2010.

 

Now there are another 40 or so routing changes that are needed in Brooklyn. At about two routing changes per year, the MTA will never catch up with the need assuming they are even making the correct changes which they are not. Dinky shuttle routes at 30'minute headways, and merely splitting long routes increasing the number of required bus transfers and fares, and SBS routes are not the way to go. In Manhattan most of the bus declines are due to people being able to walk faster than the bus. None of these reasons have anything to do with the subways.

 

Also, increasing the express bus fare at a faster rate than the subway fare encourages those riders to use the subway which is exactly what the MTA wants because it costs more to provide the express bus service. Express buses are also traveling slower as traffic increases.

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What you are saying makes no sense. Just because subway ridership is booming, that does not mean the same should be true about bus ridership. One of the reasons they would both go up is because of an improvement in the economy. Another is what Bobtehpanda stated that subway/bus users are moving out and are being replaced with those using the subway exclusively. That's where the similarity ends.

 

As I explained, buss are much more unreliable than subways and that discourages ridership. Subways are most unreliable on weekends when there are reroutes and service suspensions. The fact that subways ridership has mostly declined on the weekends recently just proves how important reliability is to ridership.

 

Also, as I stated, every year the bus routing system grows more obsolete because the minuscule number of bus route changes each year do not nearly reflect the numbers of routing changes that are needed. I wrote my masters thesis in 1972 how outdated the Brooklyn bus routing system was. I proposed like fifty route changes that were needed. Mostly independent of that, in the next 45 years, the MTA made about 20 of the changes I recognized were needed back then. One of the changes I recommended in 1972 was to split the B75 which wasn't done until 2010.

 

Now there are another 40 or so routing changes that are needed in Brooklyn. At about two routing changes per year, the MTA will never catch up with the need assuming they are even making the correct changes which they are not. Dinky shuttle routes at 30'minute headways, and merely splitting long routes increasing the number of required bus transfers and fares, and SBS routes are not the way to go. In Manhattan most of the bus declines are due to people being able to walk faster than the bus. None of these reasons have anything to do with the subways.

 

Also, increasing the express bus fare at a faster rate than the subway fare encourages those riders to use the subway which is exactly what the MTA wants because it costs more to provide the express bus service. Express buses are also traveling slower as traffic increases.

Re-read what he said.  

 

 

 

  • Most transplants are moving to areas that have subway stations within a fifteen minute walk. That's a short enough distance that taking the bus would be a waste of time, and these are most of the new residents in New York, so they boost ridership on top of the natives that are already taking the subway. These people, by and large, do not take the bus, and really have no reason to since all the places they hang out are accessible by subway or a short distance away by foot or bike.
  • In the outer boroughs, the subway is good for going to work (in which case they will take the subway to work), but will take the bus for more local services. Someone living in Fresh Meadows will take the bus to the subway to get to work in Manhattan, but would take a bus or two to do shopping in Flushing on the weekends, for instance. The latter trip is the one that suffers the most due to the traffic slowdown, and the latter trip is also the one that is easier to replace with a car trip; most people in non-subway outer borough neighborhoods have cars, and even dense areas in the outer boroughs generally have sufficient parking. So people are replacing their more local bus-only trips with cars, but still making their commute trips with bus+subway.

I can't tell if he's saying that transplants are now making up the MAJORITY of those using the transit system vs those taking the bus to the subway in the outerboroughs?  My take on it is overall you have more people using the subway that don't need to take the bus to reach it.

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Damn noscript... I'm not typing all of what I said again, so this is a condensed version...

 

If that were the case, then I suppose bus ridership shouldn't be on the decline...

What I don't care for about the whole stating of the average person (or worse, majority of commuters) taking a bus & a subway, is that I don't believe it's the case for both someone's AM & someone's PM commute.... AM, it's more likely, PM, I can't say it with much certainty..... I am of the ilk that says that people do shit after getting off work & are not living like robots - simply going home after leaving work/school.... Whether it's shopping, eatin out with friends/acquaintances, going to the 'game, gettin shitfaced, whatever...... This means getting home later... This means having to deal with worse bus service on a lot of routes... This, from what I tend to notice, means a lot of walking after getting off the subway, or having someone drop you off, or taxi-ing it home, etc. etc.... In other words, someone taking both the subway & the bus in the PM hrs. I don't believe represents the average commuter anymore....

 

I would be very interested to see what these 40 route changes are.

"needed" is an opinion..... I could shoot off a bunch of changes I feel are needed in this borough also....

So could you...

 

I'd be rather surprised if he doesn't reference his old tripod site & actually be moved enough to make a (brief) list of half of that number...

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Re-read what he said.  

 

 

I can't tell if he's saying that transplants are now making up the MAJORITY of those using the transit system vs those taking the bus to the subway in the outerboroughs?  My take on it is overall you have more people using the subway that don't need to take the bus to reach it.

I didn't read anything about a MAJORITY. Your take that you have more people who don't need the bus is how I read it.

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I would be very interested to see what these 40 route changes are.

Yes I could reference my tripod site that I haven't updated in ten years. Much of it is still applicable. That site is BrooklynBus.tripod.com.

 

I also have alternate ideas. I mentioned them in some old Sheepsheadbites articles I'd have to look up, one of them being a route from the Sheepshead Bay Station to Rockaway via the Belt Parkway. I also proposed a branch of the B44 SBS to Kingsborough College. And instead of merely converting the B82 into SBS, I proposed the following to the MTA:

 

Kings Highway is not suitable for SBS. Putting SBS on the two lane congested portion is ridiculous. Traffic on the wide portion moves fine at all times even during rush hours so exclusive lanes are not necessary. They will have no effects on bus speeds but will slow down other traffic considerably causing congestion where none exists now.

 

On Flatlands Avenue exclusive lanes also will not work unless you ban parking. Imagine the delays with only one traffic lane each way when the Belt is backed up. Also, they never should have combined the B5 and B50 to form the B82 in the first place.

 

You can truncate the eastern end of the B82 at Ralph Avenue. Make the eastern end SBS and operate it from Spring Creek Towers along its current route to Avenue P (keeping the Limited on Kings Highway) and route the SBS off Kings Highway to stay on Avenue P and continue along 65 Street stopping only at even numbered avenues where it would make all transfers. It could continue on to Shore Road passing the 59 Street station and down Shore Road until the end. Bay Ridge riders would have direct subway express service from 59 St. Through travelers do not need a transfer to the Brighton Line which would still be available with the B82 Limited, local and B7. The SBS (B81) could also be extended to Gateway and JFK. I would only do exclusive lanes on Avenue P curbside during rush hours only and along parts of Flatlands rush hours only if at all.

 

I forgot to mention that my 1972 thesis also included the current B43 and B47 amongst other changes, except I would not have eliminated service on St Johns Place east of Ralph Avenue. So why does it take the MTA decades longer than it took me to think of these changes? Will it take another thirty years for them to straighten out the B16 along Ft. Hamilton Parkway and create a new through 13th Avenue route? I thought of that also in 1972.

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That makes no sense because if that's the case then since subway ridership has been booming over the years, that means the same should be true with bus ridership.  Clearly there's a disconnect somewhere along the way.  

 

If some of those people taking the subway are former bus riders, then it makes sense why bus ridership declined and subway ridership increased. Especially in Manhattan where most bus lines are within walking distance of subway lines. (Even some of the crosstown lines. For example, I met a girl going from Baruch to John Jay who took the (L) to the (A) instead of the M23 to the (C)).

 

But even in areas where the subway is not a realistic alternative, if the bus is slow/unreliable, then a person will choose a quicker/more reliable option (driving, cabs, Uber, etc)

 

I would think someone in Fresh Meadows would take the express bus to Manhattan or the local bus to the subway, but DRIVE on weekends.  Queens is very car centric, just as Staten Island is.  But that's my point though... New Yorkers are LEAVING the city and moving elsewhere.  The transplants are moving in and taking the subway and not the bus, so it's hard to argue what you're claiming.  I think a borough wide study should be done to see where bus ridership is decreasing the most.

 

If you have an unlimited MetroCard and the trip is easy enough to make by bus, then you might consider using the bus to make the trip....if it's reliable. There's times I'll check BusTime a couple of minutes before I leave work, and if a bus is about to pass in a few minutes, I'll take it, but if I see I'll be waiting 20-30 minutes, I'll call up a relative and have them meet me as soon as I punch out.

 

Same thing with you, if you were on the X10 and saw that an S53 or S54 was coming soon, you'd wait, but if not, you'd call car service and have them meet you at the stop.

 

For starters I don't use the local buses regularly. I'm lucky if I use one now once a week. Basically, it's MNRR, the express bus or I walk. It's been a few weeks for me since I last used one. The other people that would likely agree would be subway riders. I mean look at this forum. How many of the users are regular local bus riders vs. subway riders?

 

This forum would probably be a bad sample, considering that a lot of transit fans take both the bus and the train.

 

I would garner that a good portion are both, since in many cases you can't get to the subway without a bus in the first place...

 

Not true. Subway ridership is around 5.5 million per year, whereas bus ridership is around 2.5 million per year. So that means over half of the subway riders managed to reach it without taking a NYCT/MTA Bus (whether they took a dollar van or came in from NJ/Nassau/Westchester is a different story). 

 

And out of those 2.5 million bus riders, I'd say at least half (probably more like 2/3rds) made their trip without the subway (then you also have to consider how many people take two buses, which means the number of physical bus riders is something less than 2.5 million). 

 

Also, increasing the express bus fare at a faster rate than the subway fare encourages those riders to use the subway which is exactly what the MTA wants because it costs more to provide the express bus service. Express buses are also traveling slower as traffic increases.

 

The express fare is always double the local fare plus $1 (and has been since around 2005, when they raised it from $4 to $5)

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Re-read what he said.  

 

I can't tell if he's saying that transplants are now making up the MAJORITY of those using the transit system vs those taking the bus to the subway in the outerboroughs?  My take on it is overall you have more people using the subway that don't need to take the bus to reach it.

 

The majority of new growth, not majority in general. New York already has high transit modeshare relative to the rest of the country, and I have not personally heard many stories of native households just straight up abandoning cars (granted, I am from Queens)

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I didn't read anything about a MAJORITY. Your take that you have more people who don't need the bus is how I read it.

That's the impression he gives and that's also what I observe, so if he is saying that, I can agree with it.

The majority of new growth, not majority in general. New York already has high transit modeshare relative to the rest of the country, and I have not personally heard many stories of native households just straight up abandoning cars (granted, I am from Queens)

The thing is people's modes were changing going back years ago and part of that was linked to buses. Some would take say the express bus in, but the subway, ferry and local bus home. Your new growth comment is definitely true. Everyone wants to be near a subway, which I find comical because they continue to worsen in terms of their reliability. Some of these people are just flocking to it because they think it's cool. You know all New Yorkers use the subway to and from work. (Sarcasm)

If some of those people taking the subway are former bus riders, then it makes sense why bus ridership declined and subway ridership increased. Especially in Manhattan where most bus lines are within walking distance of subway lines. (Even some of the crosstown lines. For example, I met a girl going from Baruch to John Jay who took the (L) to the (A) instead of the M23 to the (C)).

 

But even in areas where the subway is not a realistic alternative, if the bus is slow/unreliable, then a person will choose a quicker/more reliable option (driving, cabs, Uber, etc)

 

 

 

If you have an unlimited MetroCard and the trip is easy enough to make by bus, then you might consider using the bus to make the trip....if it's reliable. There's times I'll check BusTime a couple of minutes before I leave work, and if a bus is about to pass in a few minutes, I'll take it, but if I see I'll be waiting 20-30 minutes, I'll call up a relative and have them meet me as soon as I punch out.

 

Same thing with you, if you were on the X10 and saw that an S53 or S54 was coming soon, you'd wait, but if not, you'd call car service and have them meet you at the stop.

 

 

 

This forum would probably be a bad sample, considering that a lot of transit fans take both the bus and the train.

 

 

 

Not true. Subway ridership is around 5.5 million per year, whereas bus ridership is around 2.5 million per year. So that means over half of the subway riders managed to reach it without taking a NYCT/MTA Bus (whether they took a dollar van or came in from NJ/Nassau/Westchester is a different story).

 

And out of those 2.5 million bus riders, I'd say at least half (probably more like 2/3rds) made their trip without the subway (then you also have to consider how many people take two buses, which means the number of physical bus riders is something less than 2.5 million).

 

 

 

The express fare is always double the local fare plus $1 (and has been since around 2005, when they raised it from $4 to $5)

Yes but for fanning purposes or out of necessity to get from point A to point B? There's a difference. Your other point about checking BusTime when taking trips.... I'm someone who HATES the same routine, so I wouldn't always take the local bus or a taxi. It really depends on my mood. I would walk plenty of times when the weather was nice and still do now.

Damn noscript... I'm not typing all of what I said again, so this is a condensed version...

 

 

What I don't care for about the whole stating of the average person (or worse, majority of commuters) taking a bus & a subway, is that I don't believe it's the case for both someone's AM & someone's PM commute.... AM, it's more likely, PM, I can't say it with much certainty..... I am of the ilk that says that people do shit after getting off work & are not living like robots - simply going home after leaving work/school.... Whether it's shopping, eatin out with friends/acquaintances, going to the 'game, gettin shitfaced, whatever...... This means getting home later... This means having to deal with worse bus service on a lot of routes... This, from what I tend to notice, means a lot of walking after getting off the subway, or having someone drop you off, or taxi-ing it home, etc. etc.... In other words, someone taking both the subway & the bus in the PM hrs. I don't believe represents the average commuter anymore....

 

 

"needed" is an opinion..... I could shoot off a bunch of changes I feel are needed in this borough also....

So could you...

 

I'd be rather surprised if he doesn't reference his old tripod site & actually be moved enough to make a (brief) list of half of that number...

Completely agree with you. Ridership patterns change for all of the reasons you mentioned.
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* This forum would probably be a bad sample, considering that a lot of transit fans take both the bus and the train.

 

* Not true. Subway ridership is around 5.5 million per year, whereas bus ridership is around 2.5 million per year. So that means over half of the subway riders managed to reach it without taking a NYCT/MTA Bus (whether they took a dollar van or came in from NJ/Nassau/Westchester is a different story).

1- Perusing the (more active/more different posters per thread) subway forum, it would be a pretty good sample!

 

2- Without using/knowing the stats, this was one point I had made in my original reply before noscript refreshed all my tabs last night.... For one, subway usage is not declining at the same rate that bus usage is... and two, although there are areas that are ways away from a subway, at the same time, people are not THAT far away from a subway where they have to take a bus to get to it either..... Walking to the subway would not be as commonplace in this city as it is..... Putting it another way, Subway dependency is greater than bus dependency.....

 

Hell, around here, when the B35 is acting up [or is just that dam crowded] (lol), you will note that people from here in the 40's are willing to hoof it over to Nostrand.... If I can't catch a dollar cab & I'm coming off the (2), it is second nature for me to walk home - because I am not jostling to get on the B35 from Nostrand (which is common).... That mentality goes all the way back to my HS years (mid-late 90's)....

 

 

* Your new growth comment is definitely true. Everyone wants to be near a subway, which I find comical because they continue to worsen in terms of their reliability. Some of these people are just flocking to it because they think it's cool. You know all New Yorkers use the subway to and from work. (Sarcasm)

 

* I'm someone who HATES the same routine, so I wouldn't always take the local bus or a taxi. It really depends on my mood. I would walk plenty of times when the weather was nice and still do now.

1- They're flocking to the subway because it was advertised to these transients & gentrifiers before they ever stepped foot in this city.... They don't know anything else.... Try to tell some newcomer to NYC residing in Williamsburg about a B39 going to Manhattan & you will be looked at like you are polycephalous..... This has happened to me first-hand on a few occasions (not suggesting the B39 specifically, but suggesting other bus routes when the subway is acting up)....

 

2- Same... Which is why I don't take mass transit 5 days a week.... Unlike most people, I'm not afraid to dibble & dabble w/ my AM commute... I've never really been afraid of being late, even when I was an hourly employee.... hell, even during my "scholastic career" (lol).... I guess some people need that "routine" in their lives to function in society; Me - I'll never understand it, as a free thinker....

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1- Perusing the (more active/more different posters per thread) subway forum, it would be a pretty good sample!

 

2- Without using/knowing the stats, this was one point I had made in my original reply before noscript refreshed all my tabs last night.... For one, subway usage is not declining at the same rate that bus usage is... and two, although there are areas that are ways away from a subway, at the same time, people are not THAT far away from a subway where they have to take a bus to get to it either..... Walking to the subway would not be as commonplace in this city as it is..... Putting it another way, Subway dependency is greater than bus dependency.....

 

Hell, around here, when the B35 is acting up [or is just that dam crowded] (lol), you will note that people from here in the 40's are willing to hoof it over to Nostrand.... If I can't catch a dollar cab & I'm coming off the (2), it is second nature for me to walk home - because I am not jostling to get on the B35 from Nostrand (which is common).... That mentality goes all the way back to my HS years (mid-late 90's)....

 

 

 

1- They're flocking to the subway because it was advertised to these transients & gentrifiers before they ever stepped foot in this city.... They don't know anything else.... Try to tell some newcomer to NYC residing in Williamsburg about a B39 going to Manhattan & you will be looked at like you are polycephalous..... This has happened to me first-hand on a few occasions (not suggesting the B39 specifically, but suggesting other bus routes when the subway is acting up)....

 

2- Same... Which is why I don't take mass transit 5 days a week.... Unlike most people, I'm not afraid to dibble & dabble w/ my AM commute... I've never really been afraid of being late, even when I was an hourly employee.... hell, even during my "scholastic career" (lol).... I guess some people need that "routine" in their lives to function in society; Me - I'll never understand it, as a free thinker....

That was like this kid I tutored whose father thought it was so easy to walk from the Upper East Side to the Upper West Side. Nevermind that thing called Central Park. He was Canadian so I forgave him. lol
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Checkmate:

 

"Not true. Subway ridership is around 5.5 million per year, whereas bus ridership is around 2.5 million per year. So that means over half of the subway riders managed to reach it without taking a NYCT/MTA Bus (whether they took a dollar van or came in from NJ/Nassau/Westchester is a different story).

 

And out of those 2.5 million bus riders, I'd say at least half (probably more like 2/3rds) made their trip without the subway (then you also have to consider how many people take two buses, which means the number of physical bus riders is something less than 2.5 million)."

 

 

I agree with your assessment. I didn't realize the subway and bus populations are that distinct. The term ridership is pretty confusing since for subway ridership, they are counting linked trips but for bus ridership they are counting unlinked trips. So unlinked subway trips are much higher than 5.5 million and linked bus trips are lower than 2.5 million as you stated.

 

But for the purposes of this discussion, we are not interested in riders (unlinked trips) or passengers (linked trips) but rather physical riders or customers (someone usually making a round trip).

 

So let's assume there are 2.25 million daily subway customers and 3/4 million daily bus passengers, and probably around 3/4 million who use both the subway and bus. If true that would mean that a third of the bus riders use the subway for a typical trip and a third of the subway riders use the bus for a typical trip if my math is correct. I would guess that if you are only looking at journeys to and from work,the percentages would be higher since you wouldn't be counting all the miscellaneous short trips during the day, since a good portion of the city is not served by the subway.

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Yes but for fanning purposes or out of necessity to get from point A to point B? There's a difference. Your other point about checking BusTime when taking trips.... I'm someone who HATES the same routine, so I wouldn't always take the local bus or a taxi. It really depends on my mood. I would walk plenty of times when the weather was nice and still do now.

 

I mean, right off the top of my head, I can think of a decent amount of posters who live in subway-less neighborhoods and pretty much have to use the local bus for part of their trips, whether they like it or not (myself included). Baychester/Co-Op City, Fordham (our Bx12 reporters lol), Eastern Queens, Staten Island, Middle Village, Brownsville (not really a subway-less neighborhood, but Turtle mentions using the B15 a lot), etc. 

 

So let's assume there are 2.25 million daily subway customers and 3/4 million daily bus passengers, and probably around 3/4 million who use both the subway and bus. If true that would mean that a third of the bus riders use the subway for a typical trip and a third of the subway riders use the bus for a typical trip if my math is correct. I would guess that if you are only looking at journeys to and from work,the percentages would be higher since you wouldn't be counting all the miscellaneous short trips during the day, since a good portion of the city is not served by the subway.

 

But at the same time, a lot of people who work in Manhattan do take the subway for short hops for lunch and drinks after work and stuff like that, so it balances out with people making trips in subway-less areas.

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