Ocean Parkway speed limit

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I am saying that to make proper decisions those strategies require much thought. I wasn't implying that DOT actually is giving it much thought. They do a lot of things off the cuff or by using bad data.

Good.  So we're on the same page about no-brainer... 

[SmallParkShuttle]

I have no problem with a 25 mph speed limit on Ocean Parkway and I definitely think that the time for pedestrians to cross should be lengthened especially around Coney Island Hospital. That location has been bad and I am going back almost 40 years when I was changing buses there and even though I was in far better shape at that time, I found it an adventure crossing there.

The problem here is that there is really no enforcement of traffic rules and this is city-wide. If traffic rules are enforced on a regular basis, many of the problems will disappear but enforcing the law does not get votes and sell newspapers. What is happening can be considered just plain window dressing that will be changed when the issue comes up a year from now. Enforcement does not get votes for politicians even though it is good for everyone else. When has anyone heard from Vision Zero advocates and their favorite pressure groups about a regular enforcement program on Ocean Parkway that will reduce the number of accidents? You will never hear about enforcement as it does not fir their political agenda and they are afraid that they will lose their funding stream.

I think this is the real problem. Looking at the first article, the writer admits that there is little enforcement on Ocean Parkway, and then blames the safety issue on the speed limit. Any law, let alone a speed limit, means nothing if there is no enforcement​. A reasonable speed limit along with proper enforcement I think would go a long way.

 

Jaywalking tickets should be written if the pedestrian shows no regard for the traffic situation and puts themselves and oncoming traffic at risk of a collision. Of course, conditions should be assessed at each crossable intersection to ensure that pedestrians have adequate time to cross.

 

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[peacemak3r]

I'll just put this here as a driver and cyclist. There's a problem if I can cycle down Ocean Parkway faster compared to myself driving down Ocean Parkway.

[BrooklynBus]

How is this for enforcement? I am cruising down Ocean Parkway at a safe 30 mph along with everyone else. All of a sudden everyone slows down to 20 and we have heavy traffic for three avenues. The cause? A police officer with a radar gun standing in the mall.

 

Right after, traffic resumes at 30 mph and congestion is gone. So tell me what did the "enforcement" accomplish?

[BrooklynBus]

I have no problem with a 25 mph speed limit on Ocean Parkway and I definitely think that the time for pedestrians to cross should be lengthened  especially around Coney Island Hospital. That location has been bad and I am going back almost 40 years when I was changing buses there and even though I was in far better shape at that time, I found it an adventure crossing there. 

The problem here is that there is really no enforcement of traffic rules and this is city-wide. If traffic rules are enforced on a regular basis, many of the  problems will disappear but enforcing the law does not get votes and sell newspapers. What is happening can be considered just plain window dressing that will be changed when the issue comes up a year from now. Enforcement does not get votes for politicians even though it is good for everyone else. When  has anyone heard from Vision Zero advocates and their  favorite pressure groups about a regular enforcement program on Ocean Parkway that will reduce the number of accidents? You will never hear about enforcement as it does not fir their political agenda and they are afraid that they will lose their funding stream.

You have no problem with the 25 mph speed limit because you don't drive. But I agree that something needs to be done about the crossing near Coney Island Hospital.

[N6 Limited]

I think this is the real problem. Looking at the first article, the writer admits that there is little enforcement on Ocean Parkway, and then blames the safety issue on the speed limit. Any law, let alone a speed limit, means nothing if there is no enforcement​. A reasonable speed limit along with proper enforcement I think would go a long way.

 

Jaywalking tickets should be written if the pedestrian shows no regard for the traffic situation and puts themselves and oncoming traffic at risk of a collision. Of course, conditions should be assessed at each crossable intersection to ensure that pedestrians have adequate time to cross.

 

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It's a compromise of logic and safety, at least it should be.

 

1) The speed limit should be higher than 25mph, it's a major north/south roadway and Brooklyn barely has any highways, technically it has one that loops around the edge (oh, and Prospect Expressway).

 

2) The traffic signals should not be out of sync intentionally. Drivers want to get to their destinations without sitting at red signals. For whatever reason NYC DOT doesn't understand that drivers will speed up to get through as many signals as possible when they know they're being played with.

 

3) You can't lower the speed limit, have out of sync signals, AND increase the pedestrian crossing time, that's a recipe for disaster. They spend all this money and time on studies, perhaps they should hire psychologists (ones that drive) to understand the impact of their suggestions/changes.

 

4)They should Increase the speed limit, make all of Ocean Parkway green simultaneously, let cars make distance, increase the yellow time. This will let cars get to their destinations quicker drivers and will calmly come to a stop at a yellow. (or they can do the rolling green in the peak direction if that is more effective.

 

5) Once vehicles come to a stop they can have an all red pedestrian cycle so that pedestrians and cyclists can get across with no vehicle movement and cross diagonally if they want. 

 

6) Once the all red pedestrian cycle ends, allow cross street traffic to proceed, etc.

[SmallParkShuttle]

How is this for enforcement? I am cruising down Ocean Parkway at a safe 30 mph along with everyone else. All of a sudden everyone slows down to 20 and we have heavy traffic for three avenues. The cause? A police officer with a radar gun standing in the mall.

 

Right after, traffic resumes at 30 mph and congestion is gone. So tell me what did the "enforcement" accomplish?

Whats with the tone? If you don't enforce, people take advantage. A radar gun is not the only way of enforcement. You have signal patterns and speed cameras also. However, a radar once or twice a week every couple months will get the point across. What's the benefit? Slowing down the heavy pedal drivers that cause accidents and subsequently a lower speed limit. Three avenues of slightly slower traffic occasionally (20 mph that's if keeping the current limit) beats the whole parkway at a lower speed limit 24/7.

 

If one doesn't know the speed limit, that's one's problem. If I see a speed camera or a radar gun, I don't go five below, I go speed limit. You only have a backup when people don't know the limit or don't monitor thier speed. Hence why I said a reasonable speed limit and enforcement. Give people a wide, straight road and nothing but an erratic traffic light pattern to check their speed, and you will have groups of cars running 50 to try and get as far as they can, with no regard for much else. Isolated instances, but frequent enough to warrant intervention.

 

Raise the speed limit, and you raise the speed of the people who have a "15 over" rule, unless you ensure people are driving at the speed their supposed to.

It's a compromise of logic and safety, at least it should be.

 

1) The speed limit should be higher than 25mph, it's a major north/south roadway and Brooklyn barely has any highways, technically it has one that loops around the edge (oh, and Prospect Expressway).

 

2) The traffic signals should not be out of sync intentionally. Drivers want to get to their destinations without sitting at red signals. For whatever reason NYC DOT doesn't understand that drivers will speed up to get through as many signals as possible when they know they're being played with.

 

3) You can't lower the speed limit, have out of sync signals, AND increase the pedestrian crossing time, that's a recipe for disaster. They spend all this money and time on studies, perhaps they should hire psychologists (ones that drive) to understand the impact of their suggestions/changes.

 

4)They should Increase the speed limit, make all of Ocean Parkway green simultaneously, let cars make distance, increase the yellow time. This will let cars get to their destinations quicker drivers and will calmly come to a stop at a yellow. (or they can do the rolling green in the peak direction if that is more effective.

 

5) Once vehicles come to a stop they can have an all red pedestrian cycle so that pedestrians and cyclists can get across with no vehicle movement and cross diagonally if they want.

 

6) Once the all red pedestrian cycle ends, allow cross street traffic to proceed, etc.

^ Definitely in my line of thinking, save that instead of the whole parkway being green, I would have a running pattern that follows peak traffic during peak periods at the speed limit (example: 4 Avenue).

 

My whole issue is if we're having frequent traffic incidents with vehicles and/or pedestrians, the police need to make a presence to enforce the laws that are being broken instead of waiting for DOT to intervene the only way they know how.

 

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[Interested Rider]

I am in agreement  with N6L's proposals as they are carefully thought out and something that will work if implemented with written assurances that once it is implemented there cannot be any deviation. That is the changing of signals as this politician or that community group is complaining about the timing of lights for pedestrians is too short to cross the streets will not be done. The key here is to make sure that traffic moves at a reasonable speed (30 mph) and that the drivers (for the most part) will obey the speed limit. There must be enforcement on a regular  basis for this to work and that means both the idiotic pedestrians and the speedway drivers have to be put on notice that their behavior will not be tolerated with tickets given out. This sends a clear message to all that either you follow the law or take the consequences

Even though I am not a driver but a pedestrian, I see this entire discussion  from a different perspective in that when laws are followed, everyone benefits from it. What I do not like is that when reasonable suggestions are made by persons who are interested observers who are not part of the political apparatus or are some pressure group, they are belittled for doing it even though they have raised valid points concerning the subject. Even though one may be a motorist, pedestrian or bicyclist, there are certain things that we can agree upon that will help to improve the situation. We all know what the problem is here and that is the geniuses among us all who think that nothing will happen to them and make it bad for the rest of us. As long as our leaders and their surrogates in the media will not do anything as regular law enforcement of the rules does not sell newspapers and create political talking points, my opinion it will ever happen. .

[N6 Limited]

Slowing down the heavy pedal drivers that cause accidents and subsequently a lower speed limit. 

 

That's the misconception, most "heavy pedal" drivers KNOW how to drive safely, the ones that actually cause accidents are the slow and unaware drivers which make abrupt stops and turns, change lanes without signaling, pull into traffic from driveways and side streets without looking, merge onto highways without accelerating adequately, drive extremely slow in relation to traffic, drive slow in the left/ passing lane, etc.

 

Traffic safety can be easily addressed if those facts are acknowledged.

[SmallParkShuttle]

 

 

That's the misconception, most "heavy pedal" drivers KNOW how to drive safely, the ones that actually cause accidents are the slow and unaware drivers which make abrupt stops and turns, change lanes without signaling, pull into traffic from driveways and side streets without looking, merge onto highways without accelerating adequately, drive extremely slow in relation to traffic, drive slow in the left/ passing lane, etc.

 

Traffic safety can be easily addressed if those FACTS are acknowledged.

In that same thinking, most drivers in general know how to drive, but it is the few that are either unaware or indignant of thier surroundings that usually get into accidents. From my experience, the heavy pedal drivers are the ones that change lanes without signalling (usually into spaces slightly larger than parking spots), weave back and forth around 'slow' drivers, and are usually looking for the next available space rather than the pattern of traffic movement. This usually gets them or people near them into accidents, because the 'slow' driver was not expecting a car to abruptly appear in a blind spot when they change lanes or brake, and the pedestrian was not expecting a car to run a red light for all it has or for a car to completely ignore someone in a crosswalk. From the pedestrian fatality incidents I've seen, it usually (not always) involves a vehicle making a turn with the pedestrian having right of way. Every one of those particular incidents could've been avoided had the driver looked at the crosswalk after verifying the oncoming lane was clear. I'm sure a couple of those was the driver trying to beat the pedestrian without noticing there was a child or stroller with them. I'm surprised that there were no fatalities from the protected left turn/walk signal SNAFU situation that BrooklynBus described. That is a state-sponsored incident waiting to happen.

 

As a driver, I always look at least two cars ahead and behind when I can to make sure I don't get surprised. As pedestrian, I've made sure to confirm that drivers are slowing down when the light turns before I start crossing. I've also made it a habit to look over my shoulder as I cross, because in both instances I've had to stop abruptly to avoid a hasty driver.

 

To be fair, I have definitely seen pedestrians who fall into the unaware or indignant category, just walk/drive 8th or 5th Avenues in Sunset Park.

 

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[BrooklynBus]

Whats with the tone? If you don't enforce, people take advantage. A radar gun is not the only way of enforcement. You have signal patterns and speed cameras also. However, a radar once or twice a week every couple months will get the point across. What's the benefit? Slowing down the heavy pedal drivers that cause accidents and subsequently a lower speed limit. Three avenues of slightly slower traffic occasionally (20 mph that's if keeping the current limit) beats the whole parkway at a lower speed limit 24/7.

If one doesn't know the speed limit, that's one's problem. If I see a speed camera or a radar gun, I don't go five below, I go speed limit. You only have a backup when people don't know the limit or don't monitor thier speed. Hence why I said a reasonable speed limit and enforcement. Give people a wide, straight road and nothing but an erratic traffic light pattern to check their speed, and you will have groups of cars running 50 to try and get as far as they can, with no regard for much else. Isolated instances, but frequent enough to warrant intervention.

Raise the speed limit, and you raise the speed of the people who have a "15 over" rule, unless you ensure people are driving at the speed their supposed to.^ Definitely in my line of thinking, save that instead of the whole parkway being green, I would have a running pattern that follows peak traffic during peak periods at the speed limit (example: 4 Avenue).

My whole issue is if we're having frequent traffic incidents with vehicles and/or pedestrians, the police need to make a presence to enforce the laws that are being broken instead of waiting for DOT to intervene the only way they know how.

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t

 

I am not disagreeing with you. Everything you said makes sense. I didn't mean to sound like I was against enforcement which is how you interpreted what I said. I was just criticizing the type of enforcement I saw which didn't accomplish anything other than to cause a traffic jam for a few blocks and slow down traffic. If it did slow down heavy peddlers I would have had no problem. The problem was that the traffic volumes were so high you couldn't exceed 30 mph anyway. Since that is a safe speed why the emphasis on slowing everyone down? As for why everyone slowed to 20 and not 25, was not because they didn't know the speed limit but was because they wanted to be certain they would not get a ticket for doing 26 or 27 mph. What is they slowed to 25 and get pulled over being accused of doing 27? No one wanted to take that chance so just be safe from a ticket they slowed down to way below 25.

 

I have been driving for over 45 years and see heavy peddlers all the time and have never seen me get a ticket unless they were speeding. That is who enforcement should concentrate on, not someone going five mph over an unrealistically low speed limit.

[SmallParkShuttle]

t

 

I am not disagreeing with you. Everything you said makes sense. I didn't mean to sound like I was against enforcement which is how you interpreted what I said. I was just criticizing the type of enforcement I saw which didn't accomplish anything other than to cause a traffic jam for a few blocks and slow down traffic. If it did slow down heavy peddlers I would have had no problem. The problem was that the traffic volumes were so high you couldn't exceed 30 mph anyway. Since that is a safe speed why the emphasis on slowing everyone down? As for why everyone slowed to 20 and not 25, was not because they didn't know the speed limit but was because they wanted to be certain they would not get a ticket for doing 26 or 27 mph. What is they slowed to 25 and get pulled over being accused of doing 27? No one wanted to take that chance so just be safe from a ticket they slowed down to way below 25.

 

I have been driving for over 45 years and see heavy peddlers all the time and have never seen me get a ticket unless they were speeding. That is who enforcement should concentrate on, not someone going five mph over an unrealistically low speed limit.

Ok, all good. Yeah, your post came across like a "I got your enforcement right here!" to me.

 

I see the same traffic issues down here in the Greater DC area. We lost a high school teacher at a busy crosswalk close to where I live not a month into the school year and not two months from a prior fatality in the same crosswalk. Within two months, two sets of mobile speed cameras were set up for both directions (Ocean Pkwy style divided road) in the area of the crosswalk. Traffic slowed, but nothing near the typical peak traffic, which the cameras have no affect on.

 

Also, cars started yielding to pedestrians in the crosswalk a lot more since they were holding thier speed in anticipation of the nearby cameras. Not a traffic related fatality since.

 

Interestingly enough, one camera got wiped out by a car this week, which had to be a feat since the camera was more than 10 feet off the road in a grassy area.

 

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[N6 Limited]

In that same thinking, most drivers in general know how to drive, but it is the few that are either unaware or indignant of thier surroundings that usually get into accidents. From my experience, the heavy pedal drivers are the ones that change lanes without signalling (usually into spaces slightly larger than parking spots), weave back and forth around 'slow' drivers, and are usually looking for the next available space rather than the pattern of traffic movement. This usually gets them or people near them into accidents, because the 'slow' driver was not expecting a car to abruptly appear in a blind spot when they change lanes or brake, and the pedestrian was not expecting a car to run a red light for all it has or for a car to completely ignore someone in a crosswalk. From the pedestrian fatality incidents I've seen, it usually (not always) involves a vehicle making a turn with the pedestrian having right of way. Every one of those particular incidents could've been avoided had the driver looked at the crosswalk after verifying the oncoming lane was clear. I'm sure a couple of those was the driver trying to beat the pedestrian without noticing there was a child or stroller with them. I'm surprised that there were no fatalities from the protected left turn/walk signal SNAFU situation that BrooklynBus described. That is a state-sponsored incident waiting to happen.

 

As a driver, I always look at least two cars ahead and behind when I can to make sure I don't get surprised. As pedestrian, I've made sure to confirm that drivers are slowing down when the light turns before I start crossing. I've also made it a habit to look over my shoulder as I cross, because in both instances I've had to stop abruptly to avoid a hasty driver.

 

To be fair, I have definitely seen pedestrians who fall into the unaware or indignant category, just walk/drive 8th or 5th Avenues in Sunset Park.

 

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It's annoying when people don't use their signals.  But slow drivers should stay out of the left lane, they're impeding traffic flow. The US should adopt Germany's driving rules

[Ian Lennon]

25 for Ocean is ridiculous. I'd say finish the Prospect Expressway already, but that's never going to get past the Nimbys. Build some pedestrian bridges, and eliminate the crosswalks. The reduced speed limits in NYC have become ridiculous. 25 on Northern Blvd, by Citifield. 25 MPH on Queens Blvd, enough already. These roads were built as main arteries. Granted, they worked better with active service roads, not parking spots. Oh, and one last thing. Some people need their heads checked when it comes to crossing a street. They go walking right in front of the car, while the car has the green light, like it's magically going to stop. I'd say it takes common sense, but there is nothing common about it.  It's more like a super power these days 

[peacemak3r]

As many pointed out in the radar guns and speed cameras, the roller coaster effect it has on Ocean Parkway is disgusting. I can't say much past Avenue W because I don't use Ocean Parkway past Avenue W. But considering how the lights are north of Avenue W, I can only imagine how crappy it is south of it.

 

A point noted, the "dangerous" lanes weaving. You are getting the lane weaving because of the inexperienced drivers hogging up lanes with ridiculous 10 mph speeds on a three lane road.

 

I have no problems with enforcement of the speed (especially because I avoid driving on Ocean Parkway these days anyway), but if you enforce the speed limits, for the love of God please start enforcing jay walking and walking against the damn light. I swear pedestrians are so pampered on Ocean Parkway, it's ridiculous.

[BrooklynBus]

Read the second letter:

 

http://www.brooklyndaily.com/stories/2017/16/bd-letters-2017-04-21-bk.html

[N6 Limited]

Read the second letter:

 

http://www.brooklyndaily.com/stories/2017/16/bd-letters-2017-04-21-bk.html

Mr. Hecht whom referenced your letter had good points. And good question to Mr. Massengale.