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Thoughts regarding 19/7 (B) Train Service


Lawrence St

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LMFAO these posts are killing me. There is now way that the MTA will run a (B) train on the weekends.

 

Let's go back to the 1990's, where the Manhattan bridge was just operating the north side. Weekdays we have the (B) between 168 St/the Bronx and Coney Island via West End, the (D) via Brighton, and the (Q) between 21st Street and Brighton Beach. Cut to weekends, (Q) doesn't run, and (B) is rerouted to 21st Street, with no service on cpw.

 

Now in post 2004, they had to change the south ends of all 3 lines, with the (D) now on West End, (B) as the Brighton express, and (Q) as the Brighton local. Before you say anything else, think of the reasons why all 3 lines were changed to what they were today. Also if you would look at how the lines were set up in the 1990's, you can also notice why the (B) / (Q) ran weekdays only.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hint hint: it has to do with G.O.s and the fact that it's nearly difficult to run 2 lines on a G.O., let alone 3. And don't say reroute anything, because 1. We know how riders feel about reroutes and how well they pay attention and 2. No point in duplicating routes that do the job pretty well anyways.

 

Also I'm not sure how to put the orange Q on here, but whatever.

The (Q) isn't doing the job, and neither is the (C) , so your point is moot.  I know that the service is wanted.  We talked about it during a Townhall meeting in Sheepshead Bay, and the idea was well received by the folks that I spoke to.  The (Q) does not serve 6th Avenue and is local.  The (B) does and is express. It would open up a considerable amount of access for people throughout South Brooklyn, plus give Bronx riders and Central Park West riders more options.  In fact most of South Brooklyn has some form of express service on weekends except those served by the (Q), and I think it's unacceptable at this point.  It isn't just riders along the (Q) that would benefit, but also those who live east of the line who currently have to take a long bus ride just to reach the (Q) and then ride it local (i.e. Mill Basin, Bergen Beach, Gerritsen Beach, residents in the eastern part of Sheepshead Bay, Marine Park, parts of Midwood, and so on) so we're talking about numerous neighborhoods benefiting from this service being implemented in Brooklyn, Manhattan and the Bronx.

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The (Q) isn't doing the job, and neither is the (C) , so your point is moot.  I know that the service is wanted.  We talked about it during a Townhall meeting in Sheepshead Bay, and the idea was well received by the folks that I spoke to.  The (Q) does not serve 6th Avenue and is local.  The (B) does and is express. It would open up a considerable amount of access for people throughout South Brooklyn, plus give Bronx riders and Central Park West riders more options.  In fact most of South Brooklyn has some form of express service on weekends except those served by the (Q), and I think it's unacceptable at this point.  It isn't just riders along the (Q) that would benefit, but also those who live east of the line who currently have to take a long bus ride just to reach the (Q) and then ride it local (i.e. Mill Basin, Bergen Beach, Gerritsen Beach, residents in the eastern part of Sheepshead Bay, Marine Park, parts of Midwood, and so on) so we're talking about numerous neighborhoods benefiting from this service being implemented in Brooklyn, Manhattan and the Bronx.

 

Just be grateful that you have subway service at all to begin with. It's better than no service.  

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Dude, EVERY line experiences weekend work, just not every line on the same day.

I know that...But it can be a great alternative for another line thats not running....Me personally no line that has a manhattan trunk should be suspended wkends...If thats the case why they need the C on wkends the A  should be able to cover that..Right??? Im just tired of yearly fare increses and slower more crowded trains on wkends...And ppl being like theres no money or enough cars or enough ridership for such wkend service....

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Just be grateful that you have subway service at all to begin with. It's better than no service.  

Uh many people don't have subway service, myself included, so speak for yourself.  You live in an area with subway options, so you're the last one that should be talking down to people about what they should be thankful for.  When I take the (Q) train, I usually transfer from the express bus, so I would greatly benefit from having the (B) train since it could cut down on a 2+ hour commute one way to Brooklyn.

 

 

I know that...But it can be a great alternative for another line thats not running....Me personally no line that has a manhattan trunk should be suspended wkends...If thats the case why they need the C on wkends the A  should be able to cover that..Right??? Im just tired of yearly fare increses and slower more crowded trains on wkends...And ppl being like theres no money or enough cars or enough ridership for such wkend service....

Exactly.  We're supposed to keep paying more and more every few years and be "grateful" for the lousy service we get because people have nowhere to go on weekends.  It's crazy.  You have people going to work, school and the like that would benefit from this service, and unless the (MTA) is pressed to improve, they won't do anything.

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Uh many people don't have subway service, myself included, so speak for yourself.  You live in an area with subway options, so you're the last one that should be talking down to people about what they should be thankful for.  When I take the (Q) train, I usually transfer from the express bus, so I would greatly benefit from having the (B) train since it could cut down on a 2+ hour commute one way to Brooklyn.

Who said I only live in an area with subway options?

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The (Q) isn't doing the job, and neither is the (C) , so your point is moot. I know that the service is wanted. We talked about it during a Townhall meeting in Sheepshead Bay, and the idea was well received by the folks that I spoke to. The (Q) does not serve 6th Avenue and is local. The (B) does and is express. It would open up a considerable amount of access for people throughout South Brooklyn, plus give Bronx riders and Central Park West riders more options.

When I was talking about the 1990's, the (Q) indeed ran on 6th av until the south side of the bridge reopened. I compared that service to the (B) back then and now because service was different on weekends in both scenarios. Not my problem if nobody sees what I see.

 

The MTA may suck at maintaining, but 9/10 times they know how to reroute a train.

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Who said I only live in an area with subway options?

If your location is New York, NY, then you have subway options.  The only people in Manhattan with limited subway options are those in the extreme parts of the borough, but nice try.  

 

When I was talking about the 1990's, the (Q) indeed ran on 6th av until the south side of the bridge reopened. I compared that service to the (B) back then and now because service was different on weekends in both scenarios. Not my problem if nobody sees what I see.

 

The MTA may suck at maintaining, but 9/10 times they know how to reroute a train.

Either way, using G.O.s as an excuse to not run a service that would benefit thousands of riders is just absurd and foolish. I'm not one of those folks that sits around like Wallyhorse throwing out crazy ideas. I use the system and I do think things through before jumping to conclusions.  I'm well aware of the issues that could arise, but that doesn't mean that the implementation of the service shouldn't be explored.  The (MTA) is also aware of the fact that usage will continue to increase (and substantially I may add) throughout the system in the years to come, so the idea of the status quo continuing is simply not going to work.  We need to look at how to improve the system, not just with G.O.s, but also through service improvements.  Additionally, we cannot expect riders to keep paying more every two years or so and see the same crummy service.  

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I'm just going to point out, that if frequent G/Os were a valid reason to not provide weekend service on a line, the (5) would have been permanently cut back to East 180th Street on weekends.

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I'm just going to point out, that if frequent G/Os were a valid reason to not provide weekend service on a line, the (5) would have been permanently cut back to East 180th Street on weekends.

Not really because Lex is the #1 subway to be on. Other lines don't have as much ridership as lex, so they are fine where they are.
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Keyword. I said I don't ONLY live in that area. 

Good for you.  Then speak about your own commute.  Don't lecture us about ours.

 

Not really because Lex is the #1 subway to be on. Other lines don't have as much ridership as lex, so they are fine where they are.

The Lex has high ridership in part because of a lack of alternatives.  

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Pretty sure this thread died a few pages ago. But like I've said before, a lot of us (B)(Q) riders do wish we had an express service on the weekends, I certainly wouldn't mind it. But a few pages ago also, it'll still be stricken with GO's like no tomorrow.

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I wonder if the system will ever reach a "state of good repair" where so many G.O.s won't be necessary as much. It wasn't always like this with so many service diversions, but then, that time when there wasn't reflected the system being allowed to fall apart. When the Capital Plan program began, the aim seemed to be to bring the system to a state of good repair, making it sound like a temporary (transitional) albeit long, drawn out process. Of course, upgrades (like all the CBTC installation) is included in this. So I wonder if it will ever subside (so that it won't be a barrier to weekend services like this, or an extended (M)), or perhaps by the time one section is done, then others need work.

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So what's the difference if it has to go local on 6th Avenue, or express along CPW? Look, Ill list all the common G.O's I can think of right now:

 

(D) rerouted via 8th Avenue:

(B) suspended north of Atlantic Avenue.

 

CPW local's run express:

Adjust (B) intervals to 9 minutes each.

 

Work on Brighton Express Tracks:

(B) rerouted over West End Express to Bay Parkway.

 

6th/8th/Broadway Swap:

(B) runs via 8th Avenue to West 4th, then via Culver Express to Coney Island.

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I wonder if the system will ever reach a "state of good repair" where so many G.O.s won't be necessary as much. It wasn't always like this with so many service diversions, but then, that time when there wasn't reflected the system being allowed to fall apart. When the Capital Plan program began, the aim seemed to be to bring the system to a state of good repair, making it sound like a temporary (transitional) albeit long, drawn out process. Of course, upgrades (like all the CBTC installation) is included in this. So I wonder if it will ever subside (so that it won't be a barrier to weekend services like this, or an extended (M)), or perhaps by the time one section is done, then others need work.

That's a good question.  I understand that work has to be done, but this habit of practically shutting down the system has to stop.  I mean it's come to the point to where if I even use the subway on weekends, I make sure I check beforehand what all of the service changes are because taking the subway usually is more of an inconvenience than anything.

 

So what's the difference if it has to go local on 6th Avenue, or express along CPW? Look, Ill list all the common G.O's I can think of right now:

 

(D) rerouted via 8th Avenue:

(B) suspended north of Atlantic Avenue.

 

CPW local's run express:

Adjust (B) intervals to 9 minutes each.

 

Work on Brighton Express Tracks:

(B) rerouted over West End Express to Bay Parkway.

 

6th/8th/Broadway Swap:

(B) runs via 8th Avenue to West 4th, then via Culver Express to Coney Island.

My concern with the (B) running is it actually being a time saver. I mean I'm hearing all of this nonsense about how the (Q) is running so frequently now and how the (B) would have to deal with this and that.  I want to put all of these GOs aside and talk about the service as it runs during the week.  Assuming the GOs aren't there, what is realistic about the (B) being faster in Brooklyn especially?  I mean I grew up using the Brighton line, so for me back in the day, the (B) WAS faster than the (Q) and I don't see why it can't be today.  I guess my thinking is that service on the line has deteriorated with all of the stupid timers and such that the (B) perhaps wouldn't be as quick as it should be.  I sure as hell wouldn't want the (B) just crawling along the way that the (Q) does now.  I mean on weekends with the headways as they are with the (Q) and even before the bump, the amount of waiting and stalling and stopping was just ridiculous.  I don't understand it.  A train running every 10 minutes or worse in some cases (despite what was stated on the schedule) should not be stopping constantly like that so early in the morning going towards Brooklyn.  I would like to understand why that is?  Is it just more timers or what, and if so why have so many been added in the first place? The (Q) used to be MUCH faster.  Now it takes at least a good 20 minutes more than before.

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The (B) used to have very limited hours during the week too, and it was great when they expanded those hours. What will be important is starting and keeping the pressure on the (MTA) and having communities work together to see this through. Getting to Brooklyn on weekends from Midtown alone takes FOREVER with the (Q), so I support running the (B) for that reason alone. The question for me is where should it run to and from? I'm inclined to see it be extended into the Bronx to Bedford Park, with regular service terminating at Brighton Beach. Summer service to Coney Island I'm not sure about on weekends, but if the logistics can work, I think that would be a boom for the economy in Coney Island, as people could get there faster all the way from the Bronx.

 

Very limited....it ran until about 9PM (depending on where along the line you were)....it's not like it was a rush hour service like some other lines.

 

Here's the 2004 schedule (last NB train left BB at 20:38, last SB train left 145th at 20:55)

 

Here's the 2016 schedule, the most recent that's published (last NB train leaves BB at 21:57, last SB train leaves 145th at 22:08)

 

As for running to The Bronx, I don't see how it could be much faster than the (D) (which has the CPW express stint that the (B) doesn't), and still has the 4th Avenue Express stint (and if there's a GO that slows it down, that GO would likely also affect (B) service).

 

I agree...Also when the  (B) ran weekends before it was well used...I guaratee if they ran the  (B)weekends now it wiil be utilize...I mean some of yall sound like this weekend GO plan will be forever....some lines dont even experience wkend service disruptions...

 

When did the (B) run weekends along the Brighton Line?

 

Also I'm not sure how to put the orange Q on here, but whatever.

 

Type Qx instead of Q.

 

In any case, my stance on this is that the (Q) is enough for weekends. 

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Very limited....it ran until about 9PM (depending on where along the line you were)....it's not like it was a rush hour service like some other lines.

 

Here's the 2004 schedule (last NB train left BB at 20:38, last SB train left 145th at 20:55)

 

Here's the 2016 schedule, the most recent that's published (last NB train leaves BB at 21:57, last SB train leaves 145th at 22:08)

 

As for running to The Bronx, I don't see how it could be much faster than the (D) (which has the CPW express stint that the (B) doesn't), and still has the 4th Avenue Express stint (and if there's a GO that slows it down, that GO would likely also affect (B) service).

 

 

When did the (B) run weekends along the Brighton Line?

 

 

Type Qx instead of Q.

 

In any case, my stance on this is that the (Q) is enough for weekends. 

I would say the same thing too if I weren't using the service... As I said though, plenty of other people feel otherwise. I'll get a good idea of how many when that petition is started and circulated.

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I would say the same thing too if I weren't using the service... As I said though, plenty of other people feel otherwise. I'll get a good idea of how many when that petition is started and circulated.

 

.....if I wasn't using the service....just to remind you I did grow up in Brighton Beach.....you think I've never had to go back there? Not to mention whenever I have to go to destinations in Manhattan along the (B) for work or other reasons.

 

Plenty of people feel otherwise, but do they feel it's worth the cost of operating that extra service? The cost is spread out over the entire system's ridership, but what if there was a surcharge for (B) line passengers. Would they be so wild about it then?

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I mean I grew up using the Brighton line, so for me back in the day, the (B) WAS faster than the (Q) and I don't see why it can't be today.  I guess my thinking is that service on the line has deteriorated with all of the stupid timers and such that the (B) perhaps wouldn't be as quick as it should be.  I sure as hell wouldn't want the (B) just crawling along the way that the (Q) does now.  I mean on weekends with the headways as they are with the (Q) and even before the bump, the amount of waiting and stalling and stopping was just ridiculous.  I don't understand it.  A train running every 10 minutes or worse in some cases (despite what was stated on the schedule) should not be stopping constantly like that so early in the morning going towards Brooklyn.  I would like to understand why that is?  Is it just more timers or what, and if so why have so many been added in the first place? The (Q) used to be MUCH faster.  Now it takes at least a good 20 minutes more than before.

 

I think they put timers southbound approaching Kings Highway because I remember both trains hauling ass into the station.  As for the (Q), even with the increased headways, I've noticed service can bunch a lot due to crowding on the Manhattan side.  Something that I think is forgotten sometimes is that overcrowding on one portion of the line can cause a ripple effect along the entire line.

 

 

I wonder if the system will ever reach a "state of good repair" where so many G.O.s won't be necessary as much. It wasn't always like this with so many service diversions, but then, that time when there wasn't reflected the system being allowed to fall apart. When the Capital Plan program began, the aim seemed to be to bring the system to a state of good repair, making it sound like a temporary (transitional) albeit long, drawn out process. Of course, upgrades (like all the CBTC installation) is included in this. So I wonder if it will ever subside (so that it won't be a barrier to weekend services like this, or an extended (M)), or perhaps by the time one section is done, then others need work.

 

There was a report a year ago that said that, at the current rate of things, we won't be at a point of good repair until 2067.  As you mentioned, there was a time when the MTA was lax about maintenance and I believe part of all these GOs is damage control from all that.  What's extremely hard to do even with resources is to juggle maintenance and good service.  When we have more GOs, people complain about the lack of service, but the whole point of construction is to allow more service to run through, so the MTA is in a conundrum. 

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I think they put timers southbound approaching Kings Highway because I remember both trains hauling ass into the station. As for the (Q), even with the increased headways, I've noticed service can bunch a lot due to crowding on the Manhattan side. Something that I think is forgotten sometimes is that overcrowding on one portion of the line can cause a ripple effect along the entire line.

 

 

 

There was a report a year ago that said that, at the current rate of things, we won't be at a point of good repair until 2067. As you mentioned, there was a time when the MTA was lax about maintenance and I believe part of all these GOs is damage control from all that. What's extremely hard to do even with resources is to juggle maintenance and good service. When we have more GOs, people complain about the lack of service, but the whole point of construction is to allow more service to run through, so the MTA is in a conundrum.

(Q) bunching -- yet another reason for wknd (B) service.

 

I 100% am with you on GOs -- very well written post.

 

Also, FWIW, I have it from a very reliable source that the MTA is doing some sort of an internal review of timers. So stay tuned on that front.

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.....if I wasn't using the service....just to remind you I did grow up in Brighton Beach.....you think I've never had to go back there? Not to mention whenever I have to go to destinations in Manhattan along the (B) for work or other reasons.

 

Plenty of people feel otherwise, but do they feel it's worth the cost of operating that extra service? The cost is spread out over the entire system's ridership, but what if there was a surcharge for (B) line passengers. Would they be so wild about it then?

That makes it even more absurd that you could try to argue that the (Q) is sufficient enough given how much longer it takes to get down there now compared to before. I think it is given how many fare increases we've seen. We haven't seen that many subway improvements... Not even close. Anything that has been added for the most part is due to overcrowding, so no, I'm just thankful for what we're getting, which is lousy service.
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That makes it even more absurd that you could try to argue that the (Q) is sufficient enough given how much longer it takes to get down there now compared to before. I think it is given how many fare increases we've seen. We haven't seen that many subway improvements... Not even close. Anything that has been added for the most part is due to overcrowding, so no, I'm just thankful for what we're getting, which is lousy service.

 

What, just because I use a line, I'm supposed to automatically want additional service on it? Yes, some lines (whether it's local bus, express bus, or subway) do need more service, or more express service, but some lines don't. 

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Very limited....it ran until about 9PM (depending on where along the line you were)....it's not like it was a rush hour service like some other lines.

 

Here's the 2004 schedule (last NB train left BB at 20:38, last SB train left 145th at 20:55)

 

Here's the 2016 schedule, the most recent that's published (last NB train leaves BB at 21:57, last SB train leaves 145th at 22:08)

 

As for running to The Bronx, I don't see how it could be much faster than the (D) (which has the CPW express stint that the (B) doesn't), and still has the 4th Avenue Express stint (and if there's a GO that slows it down, that GO would likely also affect (B) service).

 

 

 

When did the (B) run weekends along the Brighton Line?

 I was preferring to when it served the west end line on wkend... of course the B didn't get switched until the bridge was fixed...i knew that...

 

 

Type Qx instead of Q.

 

In any case, my stance on this is that the (Q) is enough for weekends.

 

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