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Union Tpke

General SBS Discussion

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Flushing - Columbus Circle? What, the Q66 that deep into Manhattan... Or Manhattan, period....

As if the Q60 & the Q32 isn't enough.... The Q101 also (which shouldn't be running to Manhattan in the first place).....

 

Smh, If that doesn't prove my theory correct about SBS, I don't know what does....

 

It was featured in a pretty old DOT list, and several of the routes that were proposed on that list have changed since then to be more like the current bus routes. I would be very surprised if the Q66 SBS is proposed to actually go into Manhattan.

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What happened with the Flushing - Columbus Circle SBS proposal via Northern BLVD?

Honestly you can have a bus from Great Neck to Columbus and have decent ridership throughout most of the line. The whole Northern Blvd corridor is pretty busy. 

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... The main issue at hand is signal priority.. Logically, if the DOT and (MTA) can't figure a way to have these buses to have signal priority than SBS is a total waste.

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Maybe I'm stuck on the mindset that SBS isn't that much different than LTD service, but the way I see it, LTD service should have never been a thing.... It's NYC being late as usual when it comes to public transportation..... The enhancement/complement to trips making all stops on some route should have been off board payment that makes the "traditional" LTD stops (xfers to other bus routes).... Instead, we have buses running local service, buses running LTD service (for now anyway), and buses making even less stops than LTD service..... On top of it, we have this failed attempt at a BRT that's essentially phasing out LTD service - that comes fully equipped with the prerequisite of worsened local service (for the routes that still have a local counterpart, that is)....

 

There hasn't been a single route with SBS on it that has a local counterpart where service on said counterpart's gotten better.... And we aint gonna see it happen either; it would completely go against the MTA's narrative....

 

What was the last route that actually got LTD service anyway? The Q21 (which is today's Q52)?

 

I think we agree in that MTA is late and that SBS/BRT in any form isn't a panacea to all bus issues. Granted, I'm not exactly sure what SBS should look like ideally, but I think the difference between it and LTD is that the way MTA chose to go about this, there are certain routes they simply won't be able to SBS (off board payment or bus lanes). They also know that they still need to be looking into new "traditional" LTD runs for the Bx/Bk and some pick up/drop off only LTDs for Queens. One of the main issues I have with off board payment is that the decrease in dwell time leads to missed buses. Especially on the Bx12 SBS, Operators have no incentive to wait at a stop even if they see 2 buses have just departed. Next thing you know, there's a 15 minute gap in service. It also doesn't appear they're distributing services evenly... where are the countdown clocks and automated announcements for the Fordham/Webster routes?

 

Interestingly enough, I think the Bx12 SBS is making more stops now than the LTD. Besides the new part of Bay Plaza, they randomly added Stillwell as a stop a few months back (It was never an LTD stop and putting the Jacobi stop back would have been a better idea seeing as the local service is trash). The trip is faster though except when the ticket checkers stop the bus.

 

My question is why have they completely given up on the LTD concept? and why are the local variants of SBS routes being left out to dry when they know they have markets the SBS can't tap?

 

Re: the Q21/52, I think so and the last LTD up here was the Bx36. Tbh, in the past 8 years,  I would've thrown "traditional" LTD Service on the Bx3/6/9/28 (wouldn't have split the later); left the Bx15 alone and SBS'd the Bx12, and the 41/55 (both from GH-149).  At least having LTD service on the Bx6 would have made it easier to discern whether or not it needs bus lanes and off board payment to speed trips up or if this is overkill. My opinion is the latter especially because they aren't going to take advantage of using all of HP Av.

 

 

 

The thing is I remember from earlier discussions that there was a stop added at Gerard, and the Bx6 used to only stop on the west side of River. But I'm looking at Google Streetview and I see an EB Bx13 stop on the service road at the west side of River (for 149th Street-bound buses), and an EB Bx6 stop on the main road between River & Gerard (with the rush hour Bx13 3rd Avenue trips stopping there). Westbound, I see a WB Bx6 stop on the main road between River & Gerard, and a WB Bx13 stop at the west side of River on the service road.

 

If that's the case, then the current Bx6 stops make sense in terms of proximity to the attractions (since west of River is the park and baseball field, which aren't big draws for Bronx residents in general, let alone on non-game days). 

 

And yeah, I was thinking as some sort of local variant (either to River Avenue, or as a branch to 168th Street, as was mentioned in previous threads).

 

You missed the E/B Bx6 stop at River Av on the main road that's parallel to the 149 St Bx13 stop and that's the one that will become the E/B SBS stop. The local E/B Bx6 and 3 Av Bx13 will stop at Gerard. The general rule is that SBS/local runs don't share the same stop (I haven't ridden all of them, so there may be an example). So the issue is that the current W/B Bx6 stop at River becomes the SBS stop and the local goes from Sherman to Gate 4 of Yankee Stadium with no stops.

 

I guess the Bx46 could go to Gateway with the Bx13, I just really feel like its a waste of a route.

 

Go out and use it then.  You talk about how we're "limiting" ourselves from a transit perspective and all you use the subway.  A bit a of a hypocrite to say the least.  What do you use to get around when you don't use the subway? You drive? You're a native New Yorker and have barely used the bus system. Pretty embarrassing, especially considering that you grew in a neighborhood without a subway. Regarding the Bx19 I've rode it a few times in Manhattan. I don't know about it having SBS, or not, but it sure as hell runs poorly.  I would use it to get up hilly parts of the city, but other than that, I would just walk because it comes so infrequently that it's not worth waiting for.

 

The person who will take an express bus/MN into manhattan and x-fer to N/B express bus just to get to another part of the Bronx (to "limit" interacting with the general population) is judging someone who came on the thread openly expressing their inexperience regarding bus service? Yikes. Should've just said "I'm not that familiar with the entire Bx19 route to make that call", and let someone else address it. At least have the decency to apologize to him for that unnecessary tirade. Reality is under MTA's current definiton of SBS, the Bx19 would be a decent candidate. Traditional LTD service wouldn't speed up trips as it'd still be making way too many stops on the Bronx side and off board payment/less stops would speed up the drag on 145/149.  As B35 said, they could just run it via Hoe/Vyse where the (2) is on Southern...

 

 

... The main issue at hand is signal priority.. Logically, if the DOT and (MTA) can't figure a way to have these buses to have signal priority than SBS is a total waste.

 

Maybe it's because they harped on this so much with the Bx12 @ the UH Bridge but I was under the assumption that this was a integral part of the SBS foundation on all routes. Are there some without signal priority?

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While there is a concern over the fact that local service has gotten worse on routes with SBS, my question is what would (really could) you do to have worked against that? On the Bx12 and M15 I can't see what you do to push the intense demand for SBS service over to locals outside of worsening SBS service and in the case of the B44 and 46 the locals were given an advantage with the 44 local having New York Av to itself heading north and the 46 local covering the Broadway section of the route. In spite of that local service on the Brooklyn routes got significantly worse.

I can't speak to what's happening with the Q20 but the Q44 has comparable headways to the Q20 and a higher tendency to bunch so I'm pretty sure on Main St itself you don't have much of a disparity between Q20 and Q44 usage. My gripe with the Q44 is that it's headways are too high (8 min PM Rush is not acceptable for a route carrying the numbers the Q44 gets) and it would benefit the corridor and Bronx-Queens travelers if the Q44 was more frequent so I would advocate adding Q44 service and subtracting from the Q20 if necessary. See here, there really isn't a disparity between SBS and local service and I would seek to "improve" things by creating one. These heavy hitting corridors are just a different animal as far as bus travel is concerned so I wouldn't sleep too hard on how the locals have been operated (except for the B46, that move was just plain dumb).

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The person who will take an express bus/MN into manhattan and x-fer to N/B express bus just to get to another part of the Bronx (to "limit" interacting with the general population) is judging someone who came on the thread openly expressing their inexperience regarding bus service? Yikes. Should've just said "I'm not that familiar with the entire Bx19 route to make that call", and let someone else address it. At least have the decency to apologize to him for that unnecessary tirade. Reality is under MTA's current definiton of SBS, the Bx19 would be a decent candidate. Traditional LTD service wouldn't speed up trips as it'd still be making way too many stops on the Bronx side and off board payment/less stops would speed up the drag on 145/149.  As B35 said, they could just run it via Hoe/Vyse where the (2) is on Southern...

Uh I don't owe him an apology because the reality is I HAVE used the Bx19 more than once in Manhattan.  In fact I've used quite a few local Bronx buses.  You of all people should know that traveling West to East in the Bronx is nearly impossible without making several transfers in general, let alone coming from Riverdale, so in many cases, taking an express bus into Manhattan and transferring to another one IS the quickest way.  Despite your claims of "elitism", the reality is I've likely used more local buses than he ever has.  Most New Yorkers have used transit regularly (including buses) even if they drive.  Seems like a pretty poor excuse to me and someone who is quite sheltered.

 

Now back to the Bx19... I think they would have to not only boost frequencies but perhaps look at doing what they do on other SBS lines which is having buses deadhead from various points to prevent overcrowding, etc. The gaps as they are seem far too wide, at least in Manhattan from my observations.

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While there is a concern over the fact that local service has gotten worse on routes with SBS, my question is what would (really could) you do to have worked against that? On the Bx12 and M15 I can't see what you do to push the intense demand for SBS service over to locals outside of worsening SBS service and in the case of the B44 and 46 the locals were given an advantage with the 44 local having New York Av to itself heading north and the 46 local covering the Broadway section of the route. In spite of that local service on the Brooklyn routes got significantly worse.

 

I can't speak for the other ones but:

 

Bx12 Local: only route serving a part of a KB heights = market. market - layover zone = inconsistent headways= I'll just walk to the SBS/across Fordham/go another way.

 

Uh I don't owe him an apology because the reality is I HAVE used the Bx19 more than once in Manhattan.  In fact I've used quite a few local Bronx buses.  You of all people should know that traveling West to East in the Bronx is nearly impossible without making several transfers in general, let alone coming from Riverdale, so in many cases, taking an express bus into Manhattan and transferring to another one IS the quickest way.  Despite your claims of "elitism", the reality is I've likely used more local buses than he ever has.  Most New Yorkers have used transit regularly (including buses) even if they drive.  Seems like a pretty poor excuse to me and someone who is quite sheltered.

 

Now back to the Bx19... I think they would have to not only boost frequencies but perhaps look at doing what they do on other SBS lines which is having buses deadhead from various points to prevent overcrowding, etc. The gaps as they are seem far too wide, at least in Manhattan from my observations.

 

I know the challenges but you've often expressed its a combination of not wanting to interact with Bronxites and the time issue.... I don't want to digress too much... It's quite simple, you owe him an apology because he asked that no one proverbially chew him out and you did just that. I know people who have lived in the Bronx/City for decades and I'm teaching them to use the local/express buses now because they always drive. You laugh at it but don't berate them for the inexperience.

 

Just like you told him to go ride the Bx19, you should probably ride the Bronx portion and report back because that's a majority of the route (the BG section is often dead btw; the Bx26 is the preferred route). It runs every 4-10 mins during the most part so frequencies aren't really the problem. It has the same issue as the Bx15 in that it's both a N/S Bronx route and Manhattan crosstown. The difference is, every 19 has been running the full route, its the sole route on 145 (which is hilly af) and there's no LTD. Even if you short-turned runs BG-The Hub, they'd still be bunching being forced to make every stop. They do these deadheads on local routes and forget the fact that it does nothing for the passengers they bypass. Very few operators will also make the personal call to hold at a stop when they see bunching ahead.

As for the gaps, Terminal regulation in the sense of making sure runs arrive and depart on time is seemingly non-existent on both local and SBS routes. The only place I've seen daily consistent regulation of a terminal is Kew Gardens with the Q46...

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I can't speak for the other ones but:

 

Bx12 Local: only route serving a part of a KB heights = market. market - layover zone = inconsistent headways= I'll just walk to the SBS/across Fordham/go another way.

 

 

I know the challenges but you've often expressed its a combination of not wanting to interact with Bronxites and the time issue.... I don't want to digress too much... It's quite simple, you owe him an apology because he asked that no one proverbially chew him out and you did just that. I know people who have lived in the Bronx/City for decades and I'm teaching them to use the local/express buses now because they always drive. You laugh at it but don't berate them for the inexperience.

 

Just like you told him to go ride the Bx19, you should probably ride the Bronx portion and report back because that's a majority of the route (the BG section is often dead btw; the Bx26 is the preferred route). It runs every 4-10 mins during the most part so frequencies aren't really the problem. It has the same issue as the Bx15 in that it's both a N/S Bronx route and Manhattan crosstown. The difference is, every 19 has been running the full route, its the sole route on 145 (which is hilly af) and there's no LTD. Even if you short-turned runs BG-The Hub, they'd still be bunching being forced to make every stop. They do these deadheads on local routes and forget the fact that it does nothing for the passengers they bypass. Very few operators will also make the personal call to hold at a stop when they see bunching ahead.

As for the gaps, Terminal regulation in the sense of making sure runs arrive and depart on time is seemingly non-existent on both local and SBS routes. The only place I've seen daily consistent regulation of a terminal is Kew Gardens with the Q46...

I don't take buses for joy rides, only for work purposes, so if I have a reason to ride the Bx19 in the Bronx I will.  I've actually used the Bx15 briefly in Manhattan as well, and what you say about the Bx19 isn't shocking.  What is shocking is that it's the only bus along that corridor.  Given how hilly that area is, that doesn't make much sense.  Perhaps a SBS and a local variation could work? 

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While there is a concern over the fact that local service has gotten worse on routes with SBS, my question is what would (really could) you do to have worked against that? On the Bx12 and M15 I can't see what you do to push the intense demand for SBS service over to locals outside of worsening SBS service and in the case of the B44 and 46 the locals were given an advantage with the 44 local having New York Av to itself heading north and the 46 local covering the Broadway section of the route. In spite of that local service on the Brooklyn routes got significantly worse.

I can't speak to what's happening with the Q20 but the Q44 has comparable headways to the Q20 and a higher tendency to bunch so I'm pretty sure on Main St itself you don't have much of a disparity between Q20 and Q44 usage. My gripe with the Q44 is that it's headways are too high (8 min PM Rush is not acceptable for a route carrying the numbers the Q44 gets) and it would benefit the corridor and Bronx-Queens travelers if the Q44 was more frequent so I would advocate adding Q44 service and subtracting from the Q20 if necessary. See here, there really isn't a disparity between SBS and local service and I would seek to "improve" things by creating one. These heavy hitting corridors are just a different animal as far as bus travel is concerned so I wouldn't sleep too hard on how the locals have been operated (except for the B46, that move was just plain dumb).

The 8 min headway for the Q44 is because of the Q20 the MTA want to run the Q20 and Q44 complementary to each other even though the Q20 really just ends up picking up the slack from the Q44.

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While there is a concern over the fact that local service has gotten worse on routes with SBS, my question is what would (really could) you do to have worked against that? On the Bx12 and M15 I can't see what you do to push the intense demand for SBS service over to locals outside of worsening SBS service and in the case of the B44 and 46 the locals were given an advantage with the 44 local having New York Av to itself heading north and the 46 local covering the Broadway section of the route. In spite of that local service on the Brooklyn routes got significantly worse....

What do you mean what could you have done? Left local service the way it was on these routes, for starters.... Intense demand for SBS is  simply not true, as the concept of SBS was unprecedented.... Who actually clamors for a service that is a failed form of another service? You have to be kidding me with that.....

 

What I would like an answer to is, why does SBS come with this absolute/guaranteed drawback of less local service - if SBS is so god damn great.... When you have to force a new... anything, onto people, something isn't quite right..... Let it stand on its own merits if the service is truly worth what the MTA wants its riders to believe that it's worth.....

 

Even if service levels of local service remained the same, the revoking of a service that makes a limited amount of stops along a portion of a route is not an advantage... Limiting people options like that is not an advantage.... For what you're saying, we may as well not even have LTD service OR SBS on any route - for the sake of having local buses running along some routing, to themselves.....

 

This isn't about hard sleeping or any of that... It's about pointing out one of the many things that's plaguing bus service in this city as it is.....

Edited by B35 via Church

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My question is why have they completely given up on the LTD concept? and why are the local variants of SBS routes being left out to dry when they know they have markets the SBS can't tap?

You know what they say about throwing rocks & hiding your hands..... SBS is just simply better than LTD service, since they've decided to forego LTD service (since they decided to pour money into SBS is more like it).... They never really gave a reason as to why they're no longer considering LTD service (and if you ask me, they're not going to).... Telling me that SBS is the future of bus service (paraphrasing) tells me nothing....

 

The 2nd question... Oh, there is no market they can't have SBS tap into... After all, it's a just bus with a fancy paint scheme & bright blue flashing lights....

 

... The main issue at hand is signal priority.. Logically, if the DOT and (MTA) can't figure a way to have these buses to have signal priority than SBS is a total waste.

When SBS first came out, this is what was promised to riders.... I didn't believe it for one second.

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What do you mean what could you have done? Left local service the way it was on these routes, for starters.... Intense demand for SBS is  simply not true, as the concept of SBS was unprecedented.... Who actually clamors for a service that is a failed form of another service? You have to be kidding me with that.....

 

What I would like an answer to is, why does SBS come with this absolute/guaranteed drawback of less local service - if SBS is so god damn great.... When you have to force a new... anything, onto people, something isn't quite right..... Let it stand on its own merits if the service is truly worth what the MTA wants its riders to believe that it's worth.....

 

Even if service levels of local service remained the same, the revoking of a service that makes a limited amount of stops along a portion of a route is not an advantage... Limiting people options like that is not an advantage.... For what you're saying, we may as well not even have LTD service OR SBS on any route - for the sake of having local buses running along some routing, to themselves.....

 

This isn't about hard sleeping or any of that... It's about pointing out one of the many things that's plaguing bus service in this city as it is.....

 

I don't see where the fact that service levels on the Bx12 and M15 local weren't kept equal to their SBS counterparts is an example of something plaguing local bus service. In spite of the reduced service levels on the local both routes saw ridership increase after SBS was introduced. If you're moving more people with less local service I don't see where local service was anything outside of serving the niche market of folks not utilizing major stops. Having the niche market of local riders get equal service to LTD/SBS riders just for the heck of it is blatantly favoring them and predicated on a somewhat false assumption that LTD riders would be willing to eat the dwell time at local stops. 

 

 

If poor service levels on the Bx12 local is such an issue why are riders willing to stare at empty locals as if they weren't even there to then end up on a sardine can that will at best beat the local by a couple of minutes to their destination. Not taking a bus that would be able to serve you is not some protest of poor frequencies and would be an irrational one. The only rationale that makes sense is that since SBS runs at low headways throughout the day, riders are not willing to eat the dwell time of local stops (something they vastly overestimate) even in instances where there are gaps in SBS service and the local would get them to their destination faster.

 

Local bus service in this city is a huge issue. Some of the SBS routes are just poor examples to use to point to that. If anything I find more of an issue with the SBS service on the Bx12 and M15 than with their local counterparts which more riders could choose to use. 

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I don't see where the fact that service levels on the Bx12 and M15 local weren't kept equal to their SBS counterparts is an example of something plaguing local bus service. In spite of the reduced service levels on the local both routes saw ridership increase after SBS was introduced. If you're moving more people with less local service I don't see where local service was anything outside of serving the niche market of folks not utilizing major stops. Having the niche market of local riders get equal service to LTD/SBS riders just for the heck of it is blatantly favoring them and predicated on a somewhat false assumption that LTD riders would be willing to eat the dwell time at local stops. 

 

 

If poor service levels on the Bx12 local is such an issue why are riders willing to stare at empty locals as if they weren't even there to then end up on a sardine can that will at best beat the local by a couple of minutes to their destination. Not taking a bus that would be able to serve you is not some protest of poor frequencies and would be an irrational one. The only rationale that makes sense is that since SBS runs at low headways throughout the day, riders are not willing to eat the dwell time of local stops (something they vastly overestimate) even in instances where there are gaps in SBS service and the local would get them to their destination faster.

 

Local bus service in this city is a huge issue. Some of the SBS routes are just poor examples to use to point to that. If anything I find more of an issue with the SBS service on the Bx12 and M15 than with their local counterparts which more riders could choose to use.

 

His point is actually a good one. The (MTA) has a habit of reducing local bus service when there's limited stop service or SBS service. Everyone will go for the limited stop or SBS service because it has been pitched as being FASTER, even if it isn't much faster than the local in some cases. People just think about the bus making fewer stops and that automatically for them equals FASTER service (so they think). The (MTA) likes it too because they want to reduce costs as much as possible, and so they are perfectly happy cutting local bus service and forcing people to use SBS service. I mean really if you've been at a local bus stop like I have and have seen have many limited stop buses pass by, you eventually see what's going on and go with the program.

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You missed the E/B Bx6 stop at River Av on the main road that's parallel to the 149 St Bx13 stop and that's the one that will become the E/B SBS stop. The local E/B Bx6 and 3 Av Bx13 will stop at Gerard. The general rule is that SBS/local runs don't share the same stop (I haven't ridden all of them, so there may be an example). So the issue is that the current W/B Bx6 stop at River becomes the SBS stop and the local goes from Sherman to Gate 4 of Yankee Stadium with no stops.

 

What if the Bx6 local ran on the WB service road and stopped with the Bx13 at River? I know it would eat into some of the time savings, but it would serve that stop.

 

Uh I don't owe him an apology because the reality is I HAVE used the Bx19 more than once in Manhattan.  In fact I've used quite a few local Bronx buses.  You of all people should know that traveling West to East in the Bronx is nearly impossible without making several transfers in general, let alone coming from Riverdale, so in many cases, taking an express bus into Manhattan and transferring to another one IS the quickest way.  Despite your claims of "elitism", the reality is I've likely used more local buses than he ever has.  Most New Yorkers have used transit regularly (including buses) even if they drive.  Seems like a pretty poor excuse to me and someone who is quite sheltered.

 

Now back to the Bx19... I think they would have to not only boost frequencies but perhaps look at doing what they do on other SBS lines which is having buses deadhead from various points to prevent overcrowding, etc. The gaps as they are seem far too wide, at least in Manhattan from my observations.

 

He uses the subway. It's not like he doesn't use transit at all. I know plenty of my friends at CCNY who look at me like I have two heads when I suggest taking the M100/101 instead of walking it out. 

 

The difference is, every 19 has been running the full route, its the sole route on 145 (which is hilly af) and there's no LTD. 

 

When they run late, sometimes they short-turn at Lenox.

 

I don't take buses for joy rides, only for work purposes, so if I have a reason to ride the Bx19 in the Bronx I will.  I've actually used the Bx15 briefly in Manhattan as well, and what you say about the Bx19 isn't shocking.  What is shocking is that it's the only bus along that corridor.  Given how hilly that area is, that doesn't make much sense.  Perhaps a SBS and a local variation could work? 

 

I don't see how that's worse than any other hilly areas that only have one bus running down them. The Bx19 is fairly frequent. Whenever I get out of the subway at 145th, there's usually a bus either approaching/at the stop or just pulling out.

 

His point is actually a good one. The (MTA) has a habit of reducing local bus service when there's limited stop service or SBS service. Everyone will go for the limited stop or SBS service because it has been pitched as being FASTER, even if it isn't much faster than the local in some cases. People just think about the bus making fewer stops and that automatically for them equals FASTER service (so they think). The (MTA) likes it too because they want to reduce costs as much as possible, and so they are perfectly happy cutting local bus service and forcing people to use SBS service. I mean really if you've been at a local bus stop like I have and have seen have many limited stop buses pass by, you eventually see what's going on and go with the program.

 

...except for the fact that locals usually don't run the full route when limiteds are running (and I don't see the MTA adding a bunch of short-turn limiteds on these routes). 

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I don't see where the fact that service levels on the Bx12 and M15 local weren't kept equal to their SBS counterparts is an example of something plaguing local bus service. In spite of the reduced service levels on the local both routes saw ridership increase after SBS was introduced. If you're moving more people with less local service I don't see where local service was anything outside of serving the niche market of folks not utilizing major stops. Having the niche market of local riders get equal service to LTD/SBS riders just for the heck of it is blatantly favoring them and predicated on a somewhat false assumption that LTD riders would be willing to eat the dwell time at local stops. 

 

If poor service levels on the Bx12 local is such an issue why are riders willing to stare at empty locals as if they weren't even there to then end up on a sardine can that will at best beat the local by a couple of minutes to their destination. Not taking a bus that would be able to serve you is not some protest of poor frequencies and would be an irrational one. The only rationale that makes sense is that since SBS runs at low headways throughout the day, riders are not willing to eat the dwell time of local stops (something they vastly overestimate) even in instances where there are gaps in SBS service and the local would get them to their destination faster.

 

Local bus service in this city is a huge issue. Some of the SBS routes are just poor examples to use to point to that. If anything I find more of an issue with the SBS service on the Bx12 and M15 than with their local counterparts which more riders could choose to use. 

When you have to decrease local bus service to make SBS more attractive, that is most definitely something that plagues local bus service.... If you're having more people that live/work/etc. closer to local stops having to make their way to SBS stations in lieu of less local service, that's not something that's exactly attractive.... Now all of a sudden we're going to sit here & minimize local service & the riders that need to get on/off at local stops being nothing more than a hassle for those utilizing major stops... Just f*** those people huh?! Yet at the same time you sit here & profess that local service on the Brooklyn routes got significantly worse....

 

Well, which is it.... F*ck local bus riders & the quote-unquote niche market that represents them or sympathize with that said niche market of people when they lose service? You are attempting to do both in these last 2 posts & it is highly contradictory..... Never mind this fallacious ideology of there being some sort of a divide between those utilizing quote-unquote major stops on buses & those that aren't....

 

Having local service & SBS service equal (or close enough to it) is blatantly favoring local riders, but yet frontloading a bunch of SBS service with respect to local service (that has to be lessened to make SBS more attractive) doesn't create an imbalance? If you're going to sell me that nonsense, then we may as well end this discussion.....

 

Something else you're attempting to do with this that I find annoying, is to paint what's happened on the B44 & B46 as the anomaly - when it's in fact the lack of local service lost on the Bx12 that's the anomaly.... IDK if that's what clouding your thoughts or what, but what happened w/ the B44/46 is the most blatant example of the norm - which is the trimming away at local service for presumably quicker service.... I'm not going to parrot what VG8 said, but the MTA does have a history of that....

 

To your last paragraph, well what's happening with bus service on routes where there aren't any SBS (or LTD) service & what's happening with local bus service that has an SBS counterpart are separate issues.... At the same time, they do speak to what's going on with local bus service across the city.... We'll watch all these SBS routes pop up out of nowhere & watch local service get progressively worse.... You can categorize it as being a poor example or whatever, but it is happening.....

 

His point is actually a good one. The (MTA) has a habit of reducing local bus service when there's limited stop service or SBS service. Everyone will go for the limited stop or SBS service because it has been pitched as being FASTER, even if it isn't much faster than the local in some cases. People just think about the bus making fewer stops and that automatically for them equals FASTER service (so they think). The (MTA) likes it too because they want to reduce costs as much as possible, and so they are perfectly happy cutting local bus service and forcing people to use SBS service. I mean really if you've been at a local bus stop like I have and have seen have many limited stop buses pass by, you eventually see what's going on and go with the program.

Induced Express-a-holicism... Look no further than Woodhaven/Cross Bay blvd.

Edited by B35 via Church

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His point is actually a good one. The (MTA) has a habit of reducing local bus service when there's limited stop service or SBS service. Everyone will go for the limited stop or SBS service because it has been pitched as being FASTER, even if it isn't much faster than the local in some cases. People just think about the bus making fewer stops and that automatically for them equals FASTER service (so they think). The (MTA) likes it too because they want to reduce costs as much as possible, and so they are perfectly happy cutting local bus service and forcing people to use SBS service. I mean really if you've been at a local bus stop like I have and have seen have many limited stop buses pass by, you eventually see what's going on and go with the program.

I'm going to end here because this really is futile at this point. If local service is to improve systemwide it is going to have to be operated a lot differently than it does now so I don't personally care how the pig lipstick (SBS) plays into this. We need to have average stop spacing of 4 blocks apart instead of the status quo 2 and we need all-door boarding systemwide when the Metrocard replacement comes on board. Those things alone would significantly affect local bus service for the better and right now aren't even thoughts.

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I'm going to end here because this really is futile at this point. If local service is to improve systemwide it is going to have to be operated a lot differently than it does now so I don't personally care how the pig lipstick (SBS) plays into this. We need to have average stop spacing of 4 blocks apart instead of the status quo 2 and we need all-door boarding systemwide when the Metrocard replacement comes on board. Those things alone would significantly affect local bus service for the better and right now aren't even thoughts.

Yes, of course... Funny how it wasn't futile when you asked what could be done as a workaround to worsening local service on routes with SBS... But carry on....

Edited by B35 via Church

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1. He uses the subway. It's not like he doesn't use transit at all. I know plenty of my friends at CCNY who look at me like I have two heads when I suggest taking the M100/101 instead of walking it out. 

 

2. I don't see how that's worse than any other hilly areas that only have one bus running down them. The Bx19 is fairly frequent. Whenever I get out of the subway at 145th, there's usually a bus either approaching/at the stop or just pulling out.

 

 

3. ...except for the fact that locals usually don't run the full route when limiteds are running (and I don't see the MTA adding a bunch of short-turn limiteds on these routes). 

1. Big deal.  He grew up in an area with no subway and yet has very little knowledge of the bus system. That's absurd any way you cut it, and he tries to excuse his ignorance by talking about how he was too busy chasing skirts as if he's so cool.  LOL His behavior sounds more like a transplant than a New Yorker. 

 

2. Most crosstown areas of Manhattan have more than one branch/line running on it, and despite your claims about the Bx19 being frequent, overall it doesn't seem that way.  Runs like crap.

 

3.  Yeah and? We're talking about the (MTA) purposely cutting back on the local bus when they have limited stop or SBS service.  You're talking about something completely unrelated.  

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1. Big deal. He grew up in an area with no subway and yet has very little knowledge of the bus system. That's absurd any way you cut it, and he tries to excuse his ignorance by talking about how he was too busy chasing skirts as if he's so cool. LOL His behavior sounds more like a transplant than a New Yorker.

 

2. Most crosstown areas of Manhattan have more than one branch/line running on it, and despite your claims about the Bx19 being frequent, overall it doesn't seem that way. Runs like crap.

 

3. Yeah and? We're talking about the (MTA) purposely cutting back on the local bus when they have limited stop or SBS service. You're talking about something completely unrelated.

Correction for the second time! I rode buses growing up all the time. I don't have the same amount of knowledge of operations and logistics of the bus system in NYC I worked in CAD design in Rail rolling stock thus my better understanding there. Do I know how to move from point A to B of course I do. Routes and destinations and what bus go's where that's easy anyone could get that in a month or so! Route headways, bus types and assignments that's what I'm speaking on.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

Edited by RailRunRob

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Correction for the second time! I rode buses growing up all the time. I don't have the same amount of knowledge of operations and logistics of the bus system in NYC I worked in CAD design in Rail rolling stock thus my better understanding there. Do I know how to move from point A to B of course I do. Routes and destinations and what bus go's where that's easy anyone could get that in a month or so! Route headways, bus types and assignments that's what I'm speaking on.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

Ok, so what is it that's so complex that you don't understand about the Bx19 that we've discussed? I just find it a bit hypocritical that you go on about "unifying the system" and yet you know so little about the bus network.  If you have actually used the buses back in the day the way you say that you did, you would know that very little has changed on certain lines.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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There's nothing to complex that I can't figure out. I know the equation I'm just asking for the numbers to input. And to be honest If I don't know the numbers give me a few hours/days and I'll find it. I know the questions to ask to at least find something. The point of my comment was to gain a better understanding of the criteria for SBS selection. That I didn't know which is why I said verbatim I don't understand all the inner workings of the logistics of the Bus system. 5 boroughs of bus routes to management and scheduling daily it has to be a little complex I'm sure you don't have it all down packed as well.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

Edited by RailRunRob

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...except for the fact that locals usually don't run the full route when limiteds are running (and I don't see the MTA adding a bunch of short-turn limiteds on these routes). 

I didn't get what point you were making with this either, to be quite honest....

 

Didn't someone say the Q66 that's the Northern Blvd route correct?

Nope.... It was never factually stated what this LIC SBS route is supposed to be....

 

Nuyorican had asked "What happened with the Flushing - Columbus Circle SBS proposal via Northern BLVD?"

 

Routes and destinations and what bus go's where that's easy anyone could get that in a month or so!

Never mind the transients & those that have gentrified here, you're giving NY-ers that's lived here in the city for decades too much credit with that short a timeframe.... They may know of some nearby route, but chances are that they will not know where that route goes from end to end... The riding public isn't as transit savvy as we on these forums are.....

 

God forbid the route someone normally uses goes on some kind of a diversion...

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