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RailRunRob

Modernizing signaling

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You literally just defeated your own point. Spend those $325 mil on express buses, and problem solved. You have an alternative, and one that coexists with our existing system.

Oh please.  The QM16 and QM17 take a long time to reach Midtown and they require a transfer to get Downtown.  This ferry service is much faster and get folks Downtown in under an hour.  The problem we have here both above ground and under ground is a finite amount of space and we're basically maxed out, which is why both subway and express bus service has suffered considerably over the last few years.

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The thing about the ferry, is that it runs hourly. If you're late by so little as 2 minutes, you might as well take the Q35 or (A) train.

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I feel if you increased the frequencies on the (D) and reverse-peak (A) you may attract enough ridership from A Division lines to where we can stave off crisis mode for a quick minute and actually plan a feasible signal upgrade. I see no reason why (A) trains in the reverse direction has to be 6 minutes or higher and the (D) has some of the worst headways in the system during the PM Rush. Each line should get an additional 3-4 TPH at minimum and let's see what happens. I feel you'll get more folks riding the high ridership Bronx and Brooklyn bus routes to utilize these lines versus the A Division lines. 

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The thing about the ferry, is that it runs hourly. If you're late by so little as 2 minutes, you might as well take the Q35 or (A) train.

The thing is the location of the slip is best situated for those who live in Neponsit.  Those folks don't have a subway anyway, so worst case scenario they can take the QM16, and some likely drive anyway, so I don't think that would be a real problem.

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Oh please.  The QM16 and QM17 take a long time to reach Midtown and they require a transfer to get Downtown.  This ferry service is much faster and get folks Downtown in under an hour.  The problem we have here both above ground and under ground is a finite amount of space and we're basically maxed out, which is why both subway and express bus service has suffered considerably over the last few years.

And you think that putting in, say, $10 million into queue jumping, isolated bus lanes, and tsp on their routes wouldn't help......?

 

I agree that if we don't invest in what we have, we're maxed out, but, well, if we do, we aren't. There is *so* much that can be done cheaply and quickly to help NYers get around. I just don't see this being the highest and best use of $325 million. 

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And you think that putting in, say, $10 million into queue jumping, isolated bus lanes, and tsp on their routes wouldn't help......?

 

I agree that if we don't invest in what we have, we're maxed out, but, well, if we do, we aren't. There is *so* much that can be done cheaply and quickly to help NYers get around. I just don't see this being the highest and best use of $325 million. 

We've already spent tons of money putting in bus lanes where police and other cars sit and block the lanes, so I'm not sure if spending another $325 million on that would be worth it if the bus lanes aren't enforced.

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Looking at what other cities around the world have in terms of transportation options, it's laughable that it's taken this long to have ferry service citywide here, and we're supposed to be one a model for others...  Aside from that, we have a massive congestion problem, both under ground and above ground, so spending 325 million to upgrade the subways would just be a drop in the bucket as well. We have to explore other ways to move people.

 

I'll side with VG8 here. We need other separated forms of transport infrastructure in this city to transport NY'rs. Yes these boats may not carry the amount of passengers that a 8 car or even 4 car subway train can, but it is a start.

 

I'm all for SBS but at the same time bus lanes are rarely enforced and that doesn't look to be changing anytime soon. Beefing up express bus service sounds like a wonderful idea but at some point the road infrastructure will see (or is already seeing) the effects of being at capacity. We only have so much space in lower manhattan for express buses (aswell as other bus routes and traffic). This is one reason why I never really thought of more buses as being a end all be all solution.

 

Granted trams may to some degree also be a contributer to traffic, other forms of grade separated transit should be looked into.

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Then spend on enforcement! 

 

I think y'all get the gist of what I'm saying, so I'll pipe down for now. 

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Good article...the signaling should be modernized and it's long overdue.

 

But as was stated in the article, 13% of the delays were caused by signal issues and more by overcrowding, and I guess these things go hand in hand...

 

But when you have bottlenecks, inefficient terminals and some crazy service patterns, things aren't going to be as efficient as they are in London, even with new signaling.

 

You can't have terminals that turn only 10 and 12 TPH like 95th st on the R and Jamaica Center and expect to run that much more trains.

 

You can't expect to squeeze more TPH out of the A and C lines when they share tracks from Canal to Hoyt Schermerhorn.

 

You can't increase Lex and 7th av service that much more when you have monstrosities like Rogers Junction and that mess at 149th st.

 

How many more trains can you really run on the L train unless they do something about the 8th av terminal and lack of entrances and exits? Unless they change the station layout and Union Square (horrendous), you'll always have increased dwell times there.

 

How effective will new signaling be when you have service patterns like the (M) which (on it's way to Metropolitan Av) shares tracks with the R train, both Queens Blvd Express trains at different points and the J? I am sure London has NOTHING like that.

 

Bottom line, if you upgrade the signals, you need to couple that with eliminating bottlenecks (hardhats and shovels needed) and new streamlined service patterns.

 

Otherwise you'll risk having a brand new signaling system with the same ole' problems.

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Brooklyn Just hit the nail on the head with his statements..I would just like to add in about the SBS..Its nice but completely separated lanes blocked in would streamline so well..that M60 bus was a complete and utter waste of money

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

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How effective will new signaling be when you have service patterns like the (M) which (on it's way to Metropolitan Av) shares tracks with the R train, both Queens Blvd Express trains at different points and the J? I am sure London has NOTHING like that.

On the deep tube, the Northern line comes to mind: http://www.londonreconnections.com/2015/northern-line-timetable-for-the-future/

 

And on the subsurface railway (SSR), which is getting it installed now, at various different points multiple lines operate together:

-The Circle and Hammersmith and City lines

-The Circle, Hammersmith and City and Metropolitan lines

-The Circle and District lines

-The District and Hammersmith and City lines

-The District line and London Overground services

-The District line and National Rail services (a rough equivalent is Amtrak in the US)

-The Metropolitan line and London Overground services

 

At least, we don't have to try to install CBTC on tracks shared with Amtrak.

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Good article...the signaling should be modernized and it's long overdue.

 

But as was stated in the article, 13% of the delays were caused by signal issues and more by overcrowding, and I guess these things go hand in hand...

 

But when you have bottlenecks, inefficient terminals and some crazy service patterns, things aren't going to be as efficient as they are in London, even with new signaling.

 

You can't have terminals that turn only 10 and 12 TPH like 95th st on the R and Jamaica Center and expect to run that much more trains.

 

You can't expect to squeeze more TPH out of the A and C lines when they share tracks from Canal to Hoyt Schermerhorn.

 

You can't increase Lex and 7th av service that much more when you have monstrosities like Rogers Junction and that mess at 149th st.

 

How many more trains can you really run on the L train unless they do something about the 8th av terminal and lack of entrances and exits? Unless they change the station layout and Union Square (horrendous), you'll always have increased dwell times there.

 

How effective will new signaling be when you have service patterns like the (M) which (on it's way to Metropolitan Av) shares tracks with the R train, both Queens Blvd Express trains at different points and the J? I am sure London has NOTHING like that.

 

Bottom line, if you upgrade the signals, you need to couple that with eliminating bottlenecks (hardhats and shovels needed) and new streamlined service patterns.

 

Otherwise you'll risk having a brand new signaling system with the same ole' problems.

 

Pretty much this, which is why I've always advocated for the following:

 

-First large capex to build redundancy and capacity into the system. New lines in crowded areas that parallel existing ones, as well as common sense transfers or connections where they don't presently exist.

-Second, targeted shutdowns to modernize key interlocking plants, or tie in existing service to extensions, the impact of these on daily commuters being reduced due to the redundancy you created in #1

-Third, smarter housing and urban development policy at all levels of government that does not seek density at all costs and respects the historic character of neighorhoods without trying to turn everything into a series of luxury buildings overdeveloped with retail on the ground floor. Not every street in NYC has to become a mall. There is a critical mass of spending that once you reach it, businesses cannot support themselves anymore. Stop pushing this, and stop driving commercial traffic to formerly residential areas. Finally, bring back rent stabilization, and do not grant tax breaks to any developer who does not agree to regulated rents. Do not grant tax breaks to any building characterized as "luxury". This is housing for the rich, not for the masses. Redefine income limits for so called "affordable" housing to price in more middle class people (and less super poor), but reduce the monthly rents as they are exorbitant for the income levels that qualify for them.

-Fourth, more frequent bus service, but with smaller buses (non-articulated, except on the most very crowded routes). Couple this with other common sense changes like I've discussed in other threads like putting bus stops in the center of blocks to avoid buses having to wait at intersections with green lights due to other buses ahead in the stop, or fully loaded buses with doors closed having to reopen for late arriving passengers because they are stuck at a red light in the bus stop. Space stops further apart (especially in Manhattan). Add more overnight service, which takes ridership away from ridesharing services and dollar vans that replace the buses that don't run overnight.

-Fifth, regulate the app based car services somewhat to control the number of drivers. There are entirely too many cabs driving around in this city, and many are empty.

-Sixth, do not allow vehicles with TLC plates designated as livery or cabs to park in street spots. Make them go in a garage.

-Seventh, stop putting bike lanes everywhere and crack down on bike riders who violate traffic laws of any kind. Require some form of plates on all bikes so that ticketing can occur even if the biker leaves the scene. This will reduce unsafe behavior by bikes. Eliminate bike lanes on streets where they make no sense (Court St. in Brooklyn for example) to allow traffic to flow better in those areas.

 

Taken together, this is how you create efficiency and begin to reduce the scope of delays.

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Pretty much this, which is why I've always advocated for the following:

 

-First large capex to build redundancy and capacity into the system. New lines in crowded areas that parallel existing ones, as well as common sense transfers or connections where they don't presently exist.

-Second, targeted shutdowns to modernize key interlocking plants, or tie in existing service to extensions, the impact of these on daily commuters being reduced due to the redundancy you created in #1

-Third, smarter housing and urban development policy at all levels of government that does not seek density at all costs and respects the historic character of neighorhoods without trying to turn everything into a series of luxury buildings overdeveloped with retail on the ground floor. Not every street in NYC has to become a mall. There is a critical mass of spending that once you reach it, businesses cannot support themselves anymore. Stop pushing this, and stop driving commercial traffic to formerly residential areas. Finally, bring back rent stabilization, and do not grant tax breaks to any developer who does not agree to regulated rents. Do not grant tax breaks to any building characterized as "luxury". This is housing for the rich, not for the masses. Redefine income limits for so called "affordable" housing to price in more middle class people (and less super poor), but reduce the monthly rents as they are exorbitant for the income levels that qualify for them.

-Fourth, more frequent bus service, but with smaller buses (non-articulated, except on the most very crowded routes). Couple this with other common sense changes like I've discussed in other threads like putting bus stops in the center of blocks to avoid buses having to wait at intersections with green lights due to other buses ahead in the stop, or fully loaded buses with doors closed having to reopen for late arriving passengers because they are stuck at a red light in the bus stop. Space stops further apart (especially in Manhattan). Add more overnight service, which takes ridership away from ridesharing services and dollar vans that replace the buses that don't run overnight.

-Fifth, regulate the app based car services somewhat to control the number of drivers. There are entirely too many cabs driving around in this city, and many are empty.

-Sixth, do not allow vehicles with TLC plates designated as livery or cabs to park in street spots. Make them go in a garage.

-Seventh, stop putting bike lanes everywhere and crack down on bike riders who violate traffic laws of any kind. Require some form of plates on all bikes so that ticketing can occur even if the biker leaves the scene. This will reduce unsafe behavior by bikes. Eliminate bike lanes on streets where they make no sense (Court St. in Brooklyn for example) to allow traffic to flow better in those areas.

 

Taken together, this is how you create efficiency and begin to reduce the scope of delays.

I don't know why you keep advocating for smaller buses.  People HATE small buses (myself included, especially those next generation buses). There's nowhere to stand and there's already limited seating as it is. That's why most gravitate towards the artics.

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I don't know why you keep advocating for smaller buses.  People HATE small buses (myself included, especially those next generation buses). There's nowhere to stand and there's already limited seating as it is. That's why most gravitate towards the artics.

A lot of the busiest routes in the city run without artics so artics aren't a must have on high-ridership routes plus before 2000 basically every route was running without artics. The ones with artics are frankly the ones the MTA wants to be cheap with and the Sardine Bus Service. 

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I don't think that the communities that lack transportation options would agree with you.  In the Rockaways, if the (A) train goes down and the express buses aren't running there is NOTHING else as an option.  I don't see how you could call that "rotten".  The reason the ferries didn't work previously was due to a lack of frequency but mainly the high costs.  At $2.75 a person, it's right in line with the subway, which makes it more accessible, not to mention the free shuttle buses.

 

There's also the Q35 to the (2)(5), the Q113/114 to Jamaica, and the Q52/53 to Rockaway Blvd for the (A) or Jamaica Avenue, or the Queens Blvd Line. 

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There's also the Q35 to the (2)(5), the Q113/114 to Jamaica, and the Q52/53 to Rockaway Blvd for the (A) or Jamaica Avenue, or the Queens Blvd Line. 

Yeah all local buses to subways, and none of those are exactly a quick commute.  The (2)(5) are two of the worse lines around aside from lines like the (A), so that isn't saying much.

A lot of the busiest routes in the city run without artics so artics aren't a must have on high-ridership routes plus before 2000 basically every route was running without artics. The ones with artics are frankly the ones the MTA wants to be cheap with and the Sardine Bus Service. 

While that's true, my point was that the 40 footers are already a pain as it is.    We don't need smaller buses.  For what? I mean most of the newer buses coming out I'm assuming are more fuel efficient than previous models.  You would likely need to hire more drivers anyway, so if we're talking about savings, I don't really see any.

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I don't see how that's different than other neighborhoods that rely on the bus-subway for service. I mean, they have the subway, on top of bus-subway options, which is more than can be said for areas like Eastern Queens (especially areas like Cambria Heights that are far from the LIRR).

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I don't see how that's different than other neighborhoods that rely on the bus-subway for service. I mean, they have the subway, on top of bus-subway options, which is more than can be said for areas like Eastern Queens (especially areas like Cambria Heights that are far from the LIRR).

Eastern Queens has the LIRR and express bus as an option.  The Rockaways have limited express bus service (the QM16 should run much longer than it does or at least have some QM15 trips extended on the weekends for Neponsit, Roxbury and Breezy Point).

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I said "especially areas like Cambria Heights that are far from the LIRR". The X64 only runs rush hours, just like the QM16/17.

Those people can drive to the LIRR or the QM5 or QM6 along Union Turnpike which isn't that bad in terms of the distance, not to mention that the QM5 and QM6 provide 30 minute headways combined and run 7 days a week.  Those in Breezy Point, Roxbury, Neponsit, or Belle Harbor have to drive to the QM15 in Lindenwood and that is very limited (hourly service only) and only runs on Saturdays.  That's a huge difference.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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Those people can drive to the LIRR or the QM5 or QM6 along Union Turnpike which isn't that bad in terms of the distance, not to mention that the QM5 and QM6 provide 30 minute headways combined and run 7 days a week.  Those in Breezy Point, Roxbury, Neponsit, or Belle Harbor have to drive to the QM15 in Lindenwood and that is very limited (hourly service only) and only runs on Saturdays.  That's a huge difference.

 

There isn't really parking along any of those in or near-city LIRR stations. Driving to the express bus would honestly take just about as long as bus to subway and would be more expensive for the trouble.

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There isn't really parking along any of those in or near-city LIRR stations. Driving to the express bus would honestly take just about as long as bus to subway and would be more expensive for the trouble.

That's such crap.  Cambria Heights isn't not that far from Union Turnpike, so spare me with the drama.

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