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Should NICE consider restructuring the layout of the remaining network?


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As most of us on this board are aware, NICE has been shedding ridership not just because of the service cuts and inconsistent service quality, but also because of the outdated design of the network. Many places that were once large ridership draws, such as Sunrise Mall and office parks, are no longer generating much demand, while other places, especially low-income areas and New York City, are still healthy in terms of ridership. Other cities, such as Houston, Columbus, and Baltimore, have, or are in the process of, restructuring their networks to reflect current ridership patterns.

 

While I am aware that NICE probably doesn't have the money to do a study on this, I believe that it would help to save money in the long-run, as well as stem the network's ridership decline. Some ideas that I had (sorted by route), are as follows. PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS IS BASED UPON CURRENT SERVICE LEVELS, AND THE ASSUMPTION THAT NICE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO REVIVE PREVIOUSLY ELIMINATED SERVICE IN MOST CASES (such as the n36 or Saturday n16 service):

 

n1:

Change the route's southern terminus from Grant Park to the intersection of Broadway & W. Broadway, and reroute the bus down Gibson Rd. and Harris Ave. south of the Gibson train station. This would create a southern terminal with more ridership potential (Hewlett has a Trader Joe's, for example), and would reduce travel time slightly for many riders on the n1 south of Green Acres, who use it to transfer to/from the n31/32 for service to Far Rockaway.

 

n6/n6x:

Re-introduce all previously-eliminated N6 Limited stops as n6x stops, and reduce late night frequencies on n6 service to every 45 minutes.

 

n15:

Eliminate County Seat Drive service, since there are very few intermediate riders on that section (at least from my experience), and reroute those trips down Clinton Road. I would also re-time trips so that they don't arrive and depart HTC at the same times that n31/32 trips do. This would create more frequent service for riders in Hempstead and parts of West Hempstead, as south of West Hempstead LIRR, many people live within walking distance of both routes.

 

n20G/n20H:

No changes would occur to n20G service. n20H service, on the other hand, will be reduced to every hour midday weekdays.

 

n21:

This route would be restructured significantly. It would follow the current alignment of the n20H from Great Neck LIRR to Glen Cove Rd., then follow the route of the n27 up to Glen Cove. This would increase the catchment area of the route, since much of the current alignment runs along the water. To compensate for the reduction of midday service on the n20H, midday service would be reintroduced on the n21, and timed so that Northern Bvld. retains half-hourly service between Great Neck and Greenvale.

 

n23:

Extend service to Hempstead via Washington Street. This would give direct access, as well as more frequent service, for riders heading to/from places such as Roslyn and Port Washington.

 

n27:

Re-routed via the current n23 route from Mineola to Roslyn. Both services would be timed so combined frequencies on this section would be half-hourly midday. While some riders would need to walk a bit further if they get on/off along Roslyn Road, others will now have easier access to things such as the LIRR and Winthrop Hospital.

 

n31/n32:

Reduce Saturday service to every 30 minutes combined.

 

n35:

Eliminate the weekend alignment via Stewart Avenue, so that all trips on weekends service NCC, as well as extending weekday trips that terminate at Hempstead to NCC during school periods.

 

n54/n55:

Eliminate the n54, and convert all n54 trips into n55 trips.

 

n57:

Rebrand the route as "Great Neck Community Shuttle" and replace buses with minibuses.

 

n70/n71/n72:

No changes to the n70 or n72, but n71 service would be rerouted to run via Merritts Road and Broadway, instead of via Carmans Road, which serves an area that is served by the S1 bus, which has better frequencies. This would also open up more areas for ridership.

 

Mercy Medical Shuttle:

Extend to Park Avenue and Merrick Road, and re-time service so that combined frequencies with the n16 are roughly every 15 minutes.

 

Elmont Flexi:

Eliminate all deviations besides LIJ Valley Stream, and reroute service to operate via Rockaway Parkway.
 

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n1: I would run it straight down Mill Road to West Broadway. Riders who need the LIRR can transfer at Valley Stream (or walk to Hewlett if they feel so inclined)

 

n6/6X: Agreed.

 

n15: The only logic I can see with the current pattern is that it allows an easier transfer for n31/32 riders heading to the RFM. Otherwise, agreed.

 

n20G/20H/21: Agreed.

 

n23: Not sure on this one.

 

n27: I would keep it on Roslyn Road. That section does see decent ridership surprisingly enough, and with the LIRR tracks in the way it's not that easy to walk to/from Willis Avenue.

 

n31/32: No opinion.

 

n35: I don't think you'll see too much weekend ridership. Whatever NCC students there are should be able to catch it on Stewart Avenue.

 

n54/55: I would leave it as-is.

 

n57: Agreed.

 

n70/71/72: If the all n54 trips were to become n55 trips down Broadway, running the n71 there too would be overkill (especially since it also goes to Hempstead). Also, Carmans Road is rather isolated from 110 because of the street grid in that area. But at the same time, I'm not sure if there's more ridership down the route you described (it would be low in any case)

 

MMC: Agreed.

 

Elmont Flexi: I would leave all the diversions as options. I don't think it's likely that the bus would have to make all of them in a single trip anyway.

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n1: Hourly Weekend Service between the hours of 7:30 am to 8:30pm. First two Morning and Last two Evening trips will end at Green Acres Mall.

 

n6/n6x: Look into the possibility of adding Saturday Service on the n6x.

 

n22/n22x: Add some reverse peak trips on the n22x and reduce the number of short turns at Mineola for the n22 locals.

 

n48/49: Extended from Broadway Mall to SUNY Old Westbury. Saturday Service on the n48 eliminated while the n49 runs 40 minutes on Saturday and Hourly on Sunday.

 

n78/79: n78 is eliminated while the n79 runs 30 minutes during the rush hour and hourly off peak.

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N48/N49 + N78/N79:

 

N48 - Plainview to Hempstead, weekdays 7 AM - 9 PM.  Hicksville - Hempstead Weekdays, 9 - 10 PM, Saturdays 8 AM - 8 PM.  Sundays 10AM - 6 PM.  40 ft. buses

 

N49 -  Walt Whitman Mall to Hempstead, Daily 6 AM to 11 PM.   40 ft. buses

 

N20/N21:

 

N20 Limited - Replaces N20G/N20H routes.  West of Glenwood Road all buses make limited stops to / from Flushing, running every 15 to 30 minutes during peak, and every 30 to 40 minutes middays and weekends.  60 ft. buses.

 

N21 Local - Daily from 6 AM to 11 PM, all N21 buses make local stops between Glen Cove and Flushing, running every 15 to 30 minutes during peak hours.  On weekends runs 30 to 40 minutes.  60 ft. buses.

 

 

N19, N70, N71, N72 Restructuring.

 

N19 - Extended westbound to Hempstead.  After stopping in Freeport would run up N. Main / Uniondale Ave to Hempstead Tpke, then run on Hempstead Tpke to Hempstead.  Runs daily 6 AM to 10 PM, and hourly.  40 ft. buses

 

N70 - Makes all local stops to Republic Airport / Mercy College and runs every 20 to 40 minutes.  60 ft. buses

N71 - Makes limited stops to Amityville LIRR via Republic Airport / Mercy College, weekdays 7 AM to 7 PM, every 20 to 60 minutes.  60 ft. buses.  

N72 - Makes limited stops to Conklin / Rt. 110, then local to terminal (SUNY Farmingdale / Wheatley Heights), running every 20 to 40 minutes. 60 ft. buses.

 

 

N22, N24 - run limited stop service from 6 AM to 8 PM.  Service on each line ends at 12AM.  60 ft. buses.

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N19 - Extended westbound to Hempstead.  After stopping in Freeport would run up N. Main / Uniondale Ave to Hempstead Tpke, then run on Hempstead Tpke to Hempstead.  Runs daily 6 AM to 10 PM, and hourly.  40 ft. buses

I wouldn't trust NICE bus with running n19's to Hempstead.... At the rate they're going, what's to stop them from running the n19 over the n40 route b/w LIRR Freeport & HTC & extending the n54/55 over the n40/41 route b/w HTC & LIRR Mineola? They would save a crapton of money w/ a plan like that....

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N20/N21:

 

N20 Limited - Replaces N20G/N20H routes.  West of Glenwood Road all buses make limited stops to / from Flushing, running every 15 to 30 minutes during peak, and every 30 to 40 minutes middays and weekends.  60 ft. buses.

 

N21 Local - Daily from 6 AM to 11 PM, all N21 buses make local stops between Glen Cove and Flushing, running every 15 to 30 minutes during peak hours.  On weekends runs 30 to 40 minutes.  60 ft. buses.

 

 

 

I don't really see NICE ever reconnecting the n20/21 in the immediate future unless they can figure out how to shake off the riders going all the way to Hicksville while not leaving the people going to SUNY Old Westbury, NYIT, and CW Post stranded.

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The N15 via County Seat Drive is needed to supplement the lousy and infrequent service on the N22 and N24 buses that go between Mineola and Roosevelt Field.  Stops at "One Old Country Road" and at Roslyn Rd/Old Country Rd get a good number of passengers.  In addition, the N22x (both in morning & afternoon) is deliberately timed to just miss the railroad connections:  example 9:05am n22x eastbound at Mineola just misses the arriving 9:05am eastbound LIRR by 1 to 2 minutes, and the 5:32pm westbound n22x out of RFM just misses the westbound 5:40pm railroad out of Mineola by a couple minutes.  It's not rocket science to have the n22x leave Mineola at 9:10am instead and RFM at 5:25pm instead.

 

You'd think the people who run this bus company would figure out you need more service between Mineola and Roosevelt Field.  And you structure your n22x buses to actually service the passengers who are coming to/from the Mineola LIRR so that they don't car pool or drive instead.

 

Still don't understand the ridiculous idea to run the N24 all the way from Jamaica to Hicksville.  Why don't they run it Jamaica to Huntington while they're at it?  Many east/west routes are way way too long and as such, have frequent bus bunching and super late arrivals/departures.

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The N15 via County Seat Drive is needed to supplement the lousy and infrequent service on the N22 and N24 buses that go between Mineola and Roosevelt Field.  Stops at "One Old Country Road" and at Roslyn Rd/Old Country Rd get a good number of passengers.  In addition, the N22x (both in morning & afternoon) is deliberately timed to just miss the railroad connections:  example 9:05am n22x eastbound at Mineola just misses the arriving 9:05am eastbound LIRR by 1 to 2 minutes, and the 5:32pm westbound n22x out of RFM just misses the westbound 5:40pm railroad out of Mineola by a couple minutes.  It's not rocket science to have the n22x leave Mineola at 9:10am instead and RFM at 5:25pm instead.

 

You'd think the people who run this bus company would figure out you need more service between Mineola and Roosevelt Field.  And you structure your n22x buses to actually service the passengers who are coming to/from the Mineola LIRR so that they don't car pool or drive instead.

 

Still don't understand the ridiculous idea to run the N24 all the way from Jamaica to Hicksville.  Why don't they run it Jamaica to Huntington while they're at it?  Many east/west routes are way way too long and as such, have frequent bus bunching and super late arrivals/departures.

 

n24 was replacement for n78/79 bus when n78/79 was cut west of Hicksville.

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n1: Current.

 

Elmont Flexi: Current.

 

n4/4X: Current.

 

n6/6X: Current.

 

n15: Implement n15X which runs during rush hour. Non-stop from Roosevelt Field to Hempstead Transit Center, Mercy Medical Center, Rockville Centre-Home Good, then all major transfer points from Rockvile Centre Station to Long Beach Station.

 

n16: Current.

 

Mercy Medical Center Shuttle: Eliminate.

 

n19: Extend via n36 route Freeport-Lynbrook. No Weekend or midday service.

 

n20G: Current.

n20H: Current.

n20H/G: Last buses should waiit for connecting buses.

n21: Elimnate Saturday service.

n22: Current

n22X: Current

n23:  Current.

n24: Current

n25: Add few trips.

n26: 5:10pm n26 Jamaica trip should leave 5:30pm.

n27: Resume weekend service, but terminate at Roosevelt Field Mall.

n31: Rush hour only.

n32: Current.

n33: Resume Sunday service, with reduce hours.

n35: Regular schedule.

n36: If n19 bus cannot be extended, have this return with rush hour service only, using smaller bus.

n40/41: Current

n43: Increase trips for former n45 bus riders.

n48: Eliminate Saturday service.

n49: Current.

n57: All rush hour trips should be clockwise loop.

n58: Current.

n70: Current

n71: Current

n72: Return to Babylon and have 7-Day service.

Hicksville-Wantagh Shuttle: Restore Rush Hour service with every hour.,

n78/: Eliminate.

n79: Have rush hour and weekend service.

n80: Current as April 24th.

n88: Resume weekday summer service.

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The N15 via County Seat Drive is needed to supplement the lousy and infrequent service on the N22 and N24 buses that go between Mineola and Roosevelt Field.  Stops at "One Old Country Road" and at Roslyn Rd/Old Country Rd get a good number of passengers.  In addition, the N22x (both in morning & afternoon) is deliberately timed to just miss the railroad connections:  example 9:05am n22x eastbound at Mineola just misses the arriving 9:05am eastbound LIRR by 1 to 2 minutes, and the 5:32pm westbound n22x out of RFM just misses the westbound 5:40pm railroad out of Mineola by a couple minutes.  It's not rocket science to have the n22x leave Mineola at 9:10am instead and RFM at 5:25pm instead.

 

You'd think the people who run this bus company would figure out you need more service between Mineola and Roosevelt Field.  And you structure your n22x buses to actually service the passengers who are coming to/from the Mineola LIRR so that they don't car pool or drive instead.

 

Still don't understand the ridiculous idea to run the N24 all the way from Jamaica to Hicksville.  Why don't they run it Jamaica to Huntington while they're at it?  Many east/west routes are way way too long and as such, have frequent bus bunching and super late arrivals/departures.

 

I'm pretty sure that the n15 via County Seat Drive exists mostly for people going to the Courts in Mineola and not for the benefit of the n22/n24 folks traveling between RFM and the Intermodal Center. The buses are mostly timed to connect with the another route that terminates at the same location, in the n22/24's case it's either the n23 or the n40/41.

 

The east/west routes are long because all the major transit hubs in Nassau are spread out and areas surrounding it are underdeveloped.

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I'm pretty sure that the n15 via County Seat Drive exists mostly for people going to the Courts in Mineola and not for the benefit of the n22/n24 folks traveling between RFM and the Intermodal Center. The buses are mostly timed to connect with the another route that terminates at the same location, in the n22/24's case it's either the n23 or the n40/41.

 

The east/west routes are long because all the major transit hubs in Nassau are spread out and areas surrounding it are underdeveloped.

 

I've ridden the n15 via County Seat before, and there were two or three people who got off by the courts. Need be, most people could probably walk from the n40/41, which run one block over, and at better frequencies.

 

On another note, NICE needs something to supplement the Westbury-bound n35 that departs HTC at 7:22. Ever since the n6x trip to NCC at 7:09 was eliminated, that n35 trip has been PACKED. By packed, I effectively mean that by the time the bus reaches Clinton/Jackson, there is room for maybe three or four more people to stand. Not sit, STAND.

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I've ridden the n15 via County Seat before, and there were two or three people who got off by the courts. Need be, most people could probably walk from the n40/41, which run one block over, and at better frequencies.

 

On another note, NICE needs something to supplement the Westbury-bound n35 that departs HTC at 7:22. Ever since the n6x trip to NCC at 7:09 was eliminated, that n35 trip has been PACKED. By packed, I effectively mean that by the time the bus reaches Clinton/Jackson, there is room for maybe three or four more people to stand. Not sit, STAND.

 

The n15 and n16 usually helps the n35 to Westbury for people heading to Roosevelt Field or Nassau Community College. If Those two aren't enough, then maybe NICE can have the n27 supplement the n16 and n35 traveling to NCC via Charles Lindbergh/ Earle Ovington and only serving the Student Union Building, Bradley Hall (Glen Cove Bound), and NCC Bookstore (Hempstead Bound), then use Selfridge to reach Stewart Avenue to/from the mall.

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The MTA tried extending the M5 into a super-long route (South Ferry to Washington Heights) and realized it was a huge mistake to have such a super-long route, as it was subject to extensive delays and had major reliability problems.  They now wisely split it into two routes again.

 

Similarly, NICE needs to admit its mistake on making the N24 into a super-long route (Jamaica to Hicksville) via the extremely slow Jericho Turnpike and stops practically a block apart on some stretches near the city line.  They need to split the route into Jamaica-Roosevelt Field, and Roosevelt Field-Hicksville to improve reliability and also add 10+ minutes running time due to the extremely slow pacing along Jericho Turnpike (eastbound buses routinely pull into Mineola 10 or more minutes behind schedule).  Bus stops along the N24 should be every quarter mile, not practically every block close to the city line.  This slows down the bus substantially and causes the bus to stop at practically every street light, which is wasting the bus driver's time and salary.

 

It's very cost ineffective to have customers ride all the way from Jamaica to Hicksville, as it takes up almost 2 hours of a bus driver's time.  NICE needs frequent turnover amongst its customers, and the way to get that is to provide more frequent service along the busiest corridor (between Jamaica and RFM), not the lousy infrequent and delayed service they currently have.  They continue to bleed riders.

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The MTA tried extending the M5 into a super-long route (South Ferry to Washington Heights) and realized it was a huge mistake to have such a super-long route, as it was subject to extensive delays and had major reliability problems.  They now wisely split it into two routes again.

 

Similarly, NICE needs to admit its mistake on making the N24 into a super-long route (Jamaica to Hicksville) via the extremely slow Jericho Turnpike and stops practically a block apart on some stretches near the city line.  They need to split the route into Jamaica-Roosevelt Field, and Roosevelt Field-Hicksville to improve reliability and also add 10+ minutes running time due to the extremely slow pacing along Jericho Turnpike (eastbound buses routinely pull into Mineola 10 or more minutes behind schedule).  Bus stops along the N24 should be every quarter mile, not practically every block close to the city line.  This slows down the bus substantially and causes the bus to stop at practically every street light, which is wasting the bus driver's time and salary.

 

It's very cost ineffective to have customers ride all the way from Jamaica to Hicksville, as it takes up almost 2 hours of a bus driver's time.  NICE needs frequent turnover amongst its customers, and the way to get that is to provide more frequent service along the busiest corridor (between Jamaica and RFM), not the lousy infrequent and delayed service they currently have.  They continue to bleed riders.

 

Unlike the M5, there's no reliable alternative to the n22 and n24 for people traveling between Hicksville and Jamaica. The Main Line is too infrequent and unpredictable for most people to use as an alternative.There's also the fact that the major hubs like Hicksville, Mineola, and RFM are too spread out. I don't think anyone taking the n24 even rides all the way out from Hicksville to Jamaica. I'm pretty sure the Queens folk either go as far east as Mineola, or Roosevelt Field.

 

NICE is slowly trying to shorten n22, so they might give the n24 a restructuring in the future.

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What Nassau County should do is subsidize LIRR fares for folks commuting from, say, Hempstead to NYC don't have to use NICE/ (E) / (F) becuase LIRR is too much $$$. That would allow them to cut east/west routes and focus on feeding LIRR stations and covering markets not served by the RR, a position that will get them points with planner types for being part of a 'multimodal network.' I also have a feeling that lower train fares will gain a lot more traction on the Island than NICE ever will. 

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What Nassau County should do is subsidize LIRR fares for folks commuting from, say, Hempstead to NYC don't have to use NICE/ (E) / (F) becuase LIRR is too much $$$. That would allow them to cut east/west routes and focus on feeding LIRR stations and covering markets not served by the RR, a position that will get them points with planner types for being part of a 'multimodal network.' I also have a feeling that lower train fares will gain a lot more traction on the Island than NICE ever will.

 

Nope your gonna have people along the Hempstead Branch saying lower fares bring "bad people" to our neighborhoods...
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Yup, but their voices will be outweighed by those of commuters who want to pay less $$$ (which is all of them)

Yeah no doubt decreased fares could help decrease ridership on the n6 and increase seat utilization on the Hempstead Branch. Right now... $8.75 to go to Penn is way too expensive. Just gotta get people in Garden City to agree and knowing how Ed Mangano and his rich pal is...
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The MTA tried extending the M5 into a super-long route (South Ferry to Washington Heights) and realized it was a huge mistake to have such a super-long route, as it was subject to extensive delays and had major reliability problems.  They now wisely split it into two routes again.

 

Similarly, NICE needs to admit its mistake on making the N24 into a super-long route (Jamaica to Hicksville) via the extremely slow Jericho Turnpike and stops practically a block apart on some stretches near the city line.  They need to split the route into Jamaica-Roosevelt Field, and Roosevelt Field-Hicksville to improve reliability and also add 10+ minutes running time due to the extremely slow pacing along Jericho Turnpike (eastbound buses routinely pull into Mineola 10 or more minutes behind schedule).  Bus stops along the N24 should be every quarter mile, not practically every block close to the city line.  This slows down the bus substantially and causes the bus to stop at practically every street light, which is wasting the bus driver's time and salary.

 

It's very cost ineffective to have customers ride all the way from Jamaica to Hicksville, as it takes up almost 2 hours of a bus driver's time.  NICE needs frequent turnover amongst its customers, and the way to get that is to provide more frequent service along the busiest corridor (between Jamaica and RFM), not the lousy infrequent and delayed service they currently have.  They continue to bleed riders.

Two lesser routes, yes (the M6 & the old M5 b/w Houston & GWB) pales in comparison to this M55 & M5 crap they got going on now.... The M55 is a joke, compared to the old M6.... But be there as it may....

 

The n22 & the n24 are the same animal that runs from Jamaica to Hicksville; the difference is that the n22 sees more passenger activity east of RFM & the n24 is slower west of RFM (makes too many stops along the way & is more traffic bogged)..... So if the onus is to have the n24 split, then the same should be suggested with the n22.... I personally don't see it being some sort of mistake to have the n24 run along Old Country east of RFM, when the previous pattern of service had N78/79's running along it....

 

If anything should be short turning at Mineola, it's the n24 & not the n22..... That's where I think the mistake is.

It makes more sense to have n22's short turning at RFM over n24's (formerly) short turning at the Reckson bldg/RxR plaza/whatever it's called now.....

 

Splitting the n24 at RFM will have the east of RFM portion carrying very few people... Enough to justify not even running such a service, have NICE have its way..... Not even hourly....

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Yeah no doubt decreased fares could help decrease ridership on the n6 and increase seat utilization on the Hempstead Branch. Right now... $8.75 to go to Penn is way too expensive. Just gotta get people in Garden City to agree and knowing how Ed Mangano and his rich pal is...

 

But the people living in Garden City, Stewart Manor, and Nassau Blvd are going to be the ones who benefit from lower fares on the LIRR the most because they are the ones who use the Hempstead Branch. People living in the village are going to continue to take the n6 because the bus is more frequent and connects to the subway. Even ignoring Hempstead, the n6 still gets a lot of riders in Elmont and Frankln Square from people who live outside the range of the Babylon Branch, or even the Hempstead branch

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Most N6 riders are going between:

1) Elmont/Franklin Square and Queens

2) Queens Village/Elmont/Franklin Square and Hempstead.

 

The N6 runs every 10 mins, the LIRR is hourly most of the time. The N6 runs by trip generators, The Hempstead Branch does not. The N6 and LIRR Hempstead branch ridership barely overlaps if at all.

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