SI Bus Study sort of up on MTA website

[Via Garibaldi 8]

35 minutes ago, Vtrain said:

Another great idea is to reroute the X11 to the WFC in place of the rush hour X10 service.

And what would be running in it's place down Broadway?

8 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I agree as well. There's enough ridership to maintain service over there (and also, even aside from the extra walking, there's also the extra traffic and travel time from looping down to Battery Place and then back up).

The consolidated stops on the Staten Island end aren't a big deal. It looks like they tried to eliminate every other stop, or every third stop. I didn't pay much attention to that (since I was more concerned with the general routes), but looking closely at the map, the X11 would bypass the CSI stop (my suspicion was that they would try to run the X11/12 off-peak in place of the X10, and have one of them stop in Concord. In any case, whether it's the X10, X11, or both, the Victory Blvd express route that runs by CSI should definitely stop there). 

On Forest Avenue, I noticed the X14/30 skip Forest & Manor, and Forest & Jewett. I guess for whoever's taking the local bus to connect with the express bus in that area, they want them to continue down to the X12/42 (unless it's a simple oversight like the issue with the X15 in Oakwood Heights).. Those are the only ones that really stand out, all the other ones seem pretty reasonable. 

They said they haven't come up with a numbering scheme, but for simplicity's sake, I just use the existing numbers.

Just so you know, the X14 would be a Downtown-only route under the plan.

In any case, the existing express network basically makes the same stops as the local subway lines. For example, offhand, the bus stops at (approximately) 23rd, 14th, Waverly Place, and Houston Street, while the  train stops at 23rd, 14th, 8th, and Prince.

As for Downtown-only vs. Midtown-only, there's a lot of routes during rush hour that run that pattern, most notably the busiest express route on the island....the X17. But even on the South Shore (meaning, all the areas west of Eltingville, like Arden Heights, Rossville, Tottenville, etc), the rush hour routes are all Midtown-only except for the X19 which is Downtown-only.

The whole point of the express bus AFAIC is to get to Manhattan as quickly as possible. I'll gladly take the X17 to Manhattan and catch the subway to Upper Manhattan, over having to do the bus-ferry-subway deal and take an extra 30-45 minutes on a good day.

The original plan had the X10 eliminated entirely during rush hour (well, the X10B basically), but with the protests about lack of West Street service (which I agree they should find some way of keeping WFC service at least), they're going to revisit it. They said they weren't sure about how they were going to handle off-peak service (either pick some routes that run Downtown-only and Midtown-only and just run them as-is, or run the Midtown-via-Downtown routes off-peak.

The issue is that with all the parades and detours in Midtown, that throws the schedule out the window (especially on Sundays). Though weekdays off-peak, you could realistically run them with no issues.

Skipping Forest and Manor is just crazy. I used that stop a lot and there is definitely enough usage to keep it. Forest is so narrow in that part that they don't save any time anyway since they usually couldn't go around the S48/98 buses. Aside from that there a little hill there and it's a bit of a walk from Forest and Manor to Forest and Clove.

[checkmatechamp13]

17 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Thanks for that PDF, b/c I completely forgot what this study entailed..... In any event, I wish they would have simply broken down what changes would be made with each route.....

I've always said that the south shore express bus network (for lack of a better term right now) is utter shit.... Much of that has to do w/ the fact that the x23/24 exists "separately" from the rest of the MTA network (which explains the meandering).... I see what the whole plan's trying to accomplish overall, but I don't particularly care for eliminating stops to go about straightening the network down there or whatever.... That said, there is no way in hell I would have buses running along Hylan to Tottenville from Seguine & from Huguenot (respectively).... That to me is straight up wasteful..... There are some things I agree with (from what I'm seeing on this map) though...

I'm running late, so I'ma have to get back to this later.... It's going to be a whale of a post.... I've been rather silent about SI express service....

I'm in a mood.

The thing is that, especially on the South Shore, in a lot of cases, they combined 2-3 routes at a time, so it would be a little hard to explain with some of the routes (I mean, that Huguenot Avenue route is a combination of the X17J, X23, and X24, but the X23 & X24 are combined with parts of the X22 and X17J respectively, and the X17J itself is basically focusing on the Richmond Avenue corridor)

I suspect the MTA staff helped the SI Advance make a table of which routes are going where (Out of curiosity, I was looking it up to see how well they covered it, and they actually did a pretty good job for once IMO). Anyway, at the end of the article, you'll see a table that shows which routes are being combined with what: http://www.silive.com/news/2017/06/see_it_staten_island_express_b.html

The thing I don't like about that table is that it shows all the current routes in the corridor (for example, it lists the Richmond-Arthur Kill route as combining parts of the X1, X5, and X21. Clearly, that route is just the X21 with a slightly different Midtown routing, but I guess they wanted people to see that if they currently took the X5 to get to Midtown, that route would also help them).

In any case, the original plan just had Downtown service running down Huguenot Avenue & ending at Hylan (with the X23 ending at "Captain's Quarters" by Woodvale, and the X22 doing the loop through Tottenville it currently does). Then it was changed up, I guess maybe politically, it sounded good. Something along the lines of "Now we have Downtown service available from as far as Tottenville, the furthest point on the island", but without having to provide a whole separate Downtown branch for the X22 (which I really think they should).

The other issue, of course, is if they'll be able to have an express bus terminal in the middle of the residential part of Tottenville (for 3 routes. I know at one time, the X22 terminated there before it was extended to Page Avenue around 2002 or so). Main & Amboy is one thing, but Hylan & Craig is another, especially if they plan on having off-peak and reverse-peak service (which would mean buses would have to turn around in that area). I guess Hylan is wide enough that they should still be able to physically turn the buses, but I hope that it doesn't become an issue.

On a side note, how does the X17 turn around at Huguenot & Woodrow? Does it turn around on the residential streets around that school (I.S.75)?

15 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Skipping Forest and Manor is just crazy. I used that stop a lot and there is definitely enough usage to keep it. Forest is so narrow in that part that they don't save any time anyway since they usually couldn't go around the S48/98 buses. Aside from that there a little hill there and it's a bit of a walk from Forest and Manor to Forest and Clove.

I agree. Also, even though in practice few people use the local buses & express buses interchangeably like that, it makes sense to have the express buses stop at the S98 stops (Jewett & Manor). That way, you have all of your options available (if the local/limited is running late, and you're worried about missing the ferry, you can take the express bus if it comes first. Or if they cancelled the last express bus of the morning, you can take a local bus down to the X12 or something). Better to have an option than not to have it.

14 hours ago, Vtrain said:

Nothing, the X11 would operate just like the X3/4 routes today.

The problem is that you still waste time for all those WFC-bound passengers having to loop down to Battery Place and back up (and during the PM rush hour, that little bit of West Street that all the buses go up after turning off Battery Place can be a mess).

FWIW, they had several alternatives for the Downtown, Midtown via FDR, and Midtown via NJ routes. They're not on that PDF, but were on a poster board. I should've taken a picture, but I'll see if I can remember the alternatives offhand.

Downtown alternatives

Worth Street via Church/Broadway

West & Murray (like the current X3/4, but it stopped a little short of the WFC)

Downtown loop (except via Vesey Street instead of Park Place).

Midtown via FDR alternatives

23rd-5th/Madison

23rd-5th/6th

23rd-Lexington/Madison

23rd-3rd/Lexington, then crosstown via 49th/50th

All except the last one would end at 57th Street.

Midtown via NJ alternatives

42nd-6th/5th

42nd crosstown (like the current X21)

34th-5th/Madison

42nd-5th/Madison

9th/10th Avenue, and then crosstown via 49th/50th

Again, all except the last one would end at 57th Street.

It looks like for the Midtown via NJ alternatives, they originally wanted 42nd-6th/5th, but then changed their mind to 34th-5th/Madison. I would personally prefer the first one, because the 42nd Street subway stations don't have that arrangement where you have to choose between the express and local (like at the Penn Station subway stops). Also, you have an easy connection to the to LIC, which takes longer to reach via 34th.

But to be fair, 5th/Madison doesn't have any subway lines (as opposed to say, 6th or Lexington), plus it has the bus lanes (soon to be double bus lanes on both streets) so I can see why they chose the alternatives they did. (I hope they weren't seriously considering the 49th/50th ones). 

[B35 via Church]

5 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The thing is that, especially on the South Shore, in a lot of cases, they combined 2-3 routes at a time, so it would be a little hard to explain with some of the routes (I mean, that Huguenot Avenue route is a combination of the X17J, X23, and X24, but the X23 & X24 are combined with parts of the X22 and X17J respectively, and the X17J itself is basically focusing on the Richmond Avenue corridor)....

Perhaps, but I think there's more to it than simply being hard to explain....

It's like they don't want to profess as to what routes would end up doing what, due to fear of further backlash, wanting to add a bit of a "surprise" element/big reveal (full specificity of the whole plan), or for w/e the reasons.... Vague proposals (well vague, anything) irks me to no end; If I'm going to reveal a proposal for massive public consumption, the last thing I'm going to do is half-ass it... But that's just me.

10 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

On a side note, how does the X17 turn around at Huguenot & Woodrow? Does it turn around on the residential streets around that school (I.S.75)?

I'd guess that buses still encircle the school like they did when it ran out of YUK.....

The kicker is that b/o's dropped pax off either on [the SE corner of Huguenot/Woodrow (right at the light)], or on [the NE side of Huguenot/Woodrow (after the light/alongside the school which is a current inbound x24 stop] - none of which are x17 stops... Buses that would layover at Woodrow/Vineland would commence DH-ing (whether it was back to YUK/ETC, or to go on to do some other route) instead of turning around to make an inbound trip....
------

The question I have is.... Now that the x17 is out of Charleston, do outbound buses even stop at Woodrow/Vineland in any capacity anymore?
Another way to ask that question is, what is the x17 DH scenario back to the depot....

[checkmatechamp13]

7 hours ago, Vtrain said:

If there was anything more material that was distrubuted at this meeting, please post it.

Also, has anyone heard from this meeting on when the local bus study will be released?

The MTA hasn't updated the Civic Connect page with anything. Basically, all of the MTA-distributed literature was in that PDF I posted.

In addition to the distributed literature, they also had some poster boards with what they plan to do. I posted the list of alternatives they planned for the routings in Manhattan, and everything else was just that PDF literature posted up on a big poster board. 

As for the local study, they said they had no idea, but honestly, I can't picture them releasing anything local-related until after the express stuff is actually implemented (It looks like they'll have some more open houses, since they plan some revisions, especially related to West Street. I told them that it was my main point of contention, because of how major a stop the WFC is, and how much longer it would take to get there under the new plan, so they can't say they had no warning). They said Summer 2018 is an optimistic deadline for the change.

BTW, I don't think I mentioned it, but I would really keep the X31 with its current service pattern (AM via Brooklyn, PM via NJ). The Lincoln Tunnel usually isn't that bad in the PM rush, but in the AM rush, there's so many issues, even with the bus lane. If they want to run it via the FDR instead of West Street, fine, but that's going to be an issue. I know they say they plan on doing a little bit more active dispatching and sending buses via Brooklyn or NJ as needed, but still.