Future of third ave bus line BX15?

[Q43 Floral Park]

Your initial question didn't appear to be directed to anyone quite frankly, so I'll excuse myself from addressing you going forward, because quite frankly you have a chip on your shoulder and I'm sick of dealing with it. I'll let you be the expert on the Bronx local buses.  I could care less either way.

 

It wasn't, so I'll take responsibility for not directly quoting ENY's post but if you were capable of answering it that would have been fine.... (you didn't answer it anyway , ENY did). My good sir, it is you who has the chip on his shoulder and I'm well past the point of wanting to read your attempts at continuously making claims that are sociologically offensive on this forum. You have consistently claimed that I think I'm an expert when all I do I simply state what I know and defer to those who are more knowledgeable than me as any logical human being should do. But I concur, if you don't care about this matter or local Bronx bus service, it is plausibly in your best interest to disengage going forward lest you sound more unintelligible than you already do.

 

Lastly, I apologize to anyone else on this thread if I have detracted from the conversation at hand regarding Bx15 service.

[B35 via Church]

Let's spell this out...

In no order:

 

* Bx15 goes to manhattan, Bx55 LTD remains within the Bronx....

* Bx55 gets eliminated, Bx15LTD becomes a thing....

* Bx15 locals remain within the Bronx when Bx15 LTD's (which goes to manhattan) are in operation... Oh yeah, artics became prevalent too...

* Bx15 LTD's unreliability drastically increases, compared to the Bx55 (despite the fact that service on that route before its elimination kept getting worse... and worse... and worse.....)

* Bx41/LTD gets cut back to Gun Hill , Bx39 runs up to Wakefield in its place....

* Bx41 LTD becomes a thing of the past... Enter new service type - The Bx41 SBS....

* Bx41 SBS' reliability trumps that of the Bx15 LTD.... Intra-Bronx riders emanating at the Hub simply looking to xfer to some east-west route are - Like Irish eyes.....

 

Bx15 loses riders as a result.....

 

Sure, farebeaters account for the decreased ridership stat, but I'm pretty certain there are actual losses going on with that route too.... I remember how crushloaded Bx15's used to get, say, 4-5 years ago.... I mean, they still do, but it's not the same; they're not as crushloaded.....

 

Cause for concern? Not yet..... The irony IMO is that the intra-Manhattan usage & the interborough usage on the Bx15 is keeping the MTA from f***ing up that route like they did with the Bx55..... Have the MTA cut the Bx15 from serving 125th, then we have a problem.

[DaTransitMan4608]

Let's spell this out...

In no order:

 

* Bx15 goes to manhattan, Bx55 LTD remains within the Bronx....

* Bx55 gets eliminated, Bx15LTD becomes a thing....

* Bx15 locals remain within the Bronx when Bx15 LTD's (which goes to manhattan) are in operation... Oh yeah, artics became prevalent too...

* Bx15 LTD's unreliability drastically increases, compared to the Bx55 (despite the fact that service on that route before its elimination kept getting worse... and worse... and worse.....)

* Bx41/LTD gets cut back to Gun Hill , Bx39 runs up to Wakefield in its place....

* Bx41 LTD becomes a thing of the past... Enter new service type - The Bx41 SBS....

* Bx41 SBS' reliability trumps that of the Bx15 LTD.... Intra-Bronx riders emanating at the Hub simply looking to xfer to some east-west route are - Like Irish eyes.....

 

Bx15 loses riders as a result.....

 

Sure, farebeaters account for the decreased ridership stat, but I'm pretty certain there are actual losses going on with that route too.... I remember how crushloaded Bx15's used to get, say, 4-5 years ago.... I mean, they still do, but it's not the same; they're not as crushloaded.....

 

Cause for concern? Not yet..... The irony IMO is that the intra-Manhattan usage & the interborough usage on the Bx15 is keeping the MTA from f***ing up that route like they did with the Bx55..... Have the MTA cut the Bx15 from serving 125th, then we have a problem.

When you think about it, the Bx15 is the only true 125th crosstown line. The M60 and M100/M101 don't come into the picture until Amsterdam and the M101 splits off at Lex.

 

You're right in the sense that if the MTA were to cut the Manhattan portion off the Bx15, they'd be making a big mistake. IMO, I feel like there's no need for some of those trips to short turn at the Hub. Those KB runs should go down to Harlem too (end them at 125th/2nd ave), and interline a few of them with the M100. Those Hub-Fordham riders have the Bx41/SBS not too far away, and they seem to run pretty frequently.

 

 

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[East New York]

I'm not saying that's there is any one reason over the other, but there are several contributing factors to the loss of ridership. Reliability is definitely one of the top reasons.

 

And for VG8 I was basically talking about the local routes being the ones that I've seen people who have the fare, but don't pay. There is not really an excuse for the SBS and said ppl can't make the same claim because it takes 6 seconds to get a ticket.

 

But yes, of course you have the ones that have the fare and don't want to pay it. People get busted every day then say "I have it on my card."

[East New York]

I can adjust to what ENY was saying. During my family reunion visit last summer (8/27/16), I took the Bx15 from 138th St & Willis Ave, and never seen a bus this crowded for a 11ish in the morning. Come to 3rd Ave & 149th St, I've seen 16 people get on thru the back of the bus. This is worst than comparing it to SEPTA's route 52 bus at 52nd & Market in Philly where that many get in the back door of a 40 ft NF bus. In Philly, when it comes to certain major transfer points, most drivers will see that there are many people are waiting in a less crowded bus. To avoid fare evaders, drivers tell back door exiting passengers to use the front door so that he or she will not open the back door.

In NYC, three door articulated buses should only be used for SBS routes, not local routes which fare evaders can use both the middle & rear doors for entry. They should've ordered two door artics for local buses, but when the D60s are gone, there will only be buses with 3-doors on it.

VG8, you must be talking about them Light rails whereas they use that method. In Baltimore, you must purchase a ticket to get on, because at any given time, inspectors, who dress like you and me, can board and ask you for a ticket, if you don't have one, it's $100 and you're getting off at the wrong stop, no questions asked, no answers given, and lame excuses are not tolerated.

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Makes sense, but it's not economical for us to have some buses with 2 doors and others with 3. That could work at a smaller agency where the buses could live out their life on certain lines. We transfer buses between depots too much to even consider something like that. Not to mention the loaning and borrowing done now on a regular bases. SBS buses show up on local lines here and there, but local buses show up on SBS just a bit more.

[Q43 Floral Park]

 

 

When you think about it, the Bx15 is the only true 125th crosstown line. The M60 and M100/M101 don't come into the picture until Amsterdam and the M101 splits off at Lex.

You're right in the sense that if the MTA were to cut the Manhattan portion off the Bx15, they'd be making a big mistake. IMO, I feel like there's no need for some of those trips to short turn at the Hub. Those KB runs should go down to Harlem too (end them at 125th/2nd ave), and interline a few of them with the M100. Those Hub-Fordham riders have the Bx41/SBS not too far away, and they seem to run pretty frequently.

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Cutting the 15 off 125 would absolutely be a bad idea because you're right it's the only true x-town but I somewhat disagree with a M100/Bx15 interline since they had also to start short turning the former at 5th av to keep it reliable. A hiccup on 3 Av would then cause delays from Inwood to Harlem to Fordham Plaza. I also agree the 41 is efficient but it's not as close of a walk as it seems even for someone that's able bodied. The St Barnabas stop comes to mind primarily but even trying to get from the 15 stop at Fordham Plaza (it's difficult to tell when it's leaving) to the 41 stop before the latter arrives and departs can be rather messy. Some countdown clocks could be an easy solution...

 

Let's spell this out...

In no order:

 

* Bx15 goes to manhattan, Bx55 LTD remains within the Bronx....

* Bx55 gets eliminated, Bx15LTD becomes a thing....

* Bx15 locals remain within the Bronx when Bx15 LTD's (which goes to manhattan) are in operation... Oh yeah, artics became prevalent too...

* Bx15 LTD's unreliability drastically increases, compared to the Bx55 (despite the fact that service on that route before its elimination kept getting worse... and worse... and worse.....)

* Bx41/LTD gets cut back to Gun Hill , Bx39 runs up to Wakefield in its place....

* Bx41 LTD becomes a thing of the past... Enter new service type - The Bx41 SBS....

* Bx41 SBS' reliability trumps that of the Bx15 LTD.... Intra-Bronx riders emanating at the Hub simply looking to xfer to some east-west route are - Like Irish eyes.....

 

Bx15 loses riders as a result.....

 

Sure, farebeaters account for the decreased ridership stat, but I'm pretty certain there are actual losses going on with that route too.... I remember how crushloaded Bx15's used to get, say, 4-5 years ago.... I mean, they still do, but it's not the same; they're not as crushloaded.....

 

Cause for concern? Not yet..... The irony IMO is that the intra-Manhattan usage & the interborough usage on the Bx15 is keeping the MTA from f***ing up that route like they did with the Bx55..... Have the MTA cut the Bx15 from serving 125th, then we have a problem.

It always seemed like they hated having the 55... first the 161 runs went, then the Gun hill ones, then they started chopping back the hours/days. In my head, having some of the LTDs remain in the Bronx would fix its unrelability but then that brings up the question: are they actually trying to keep people on the 15 and satisfied or just trying to force them onto the 41? One thing that the OP mentioned that we haven't discussed is that new Fordham Plaza sucks at turning the 15/17 runs. I think the 17 suffers less but I'm not convinced the 15 loop is a lot better than the old setup (it seemed like they had more room back in the day) . I've seen it take a good 5-10 mins to get a N/b going back south because either ops parked awkwardly or arrived out of order. Add the dwell time in and it can get bad quickly.

[checkmatechamp13]

The Bx15 is a combination of farebeating and M60 usage along 125th.  Some likely are even walking if they can because the traffic can be pretty bad at times.  

 

While the M60 is taking some riders off the local routes, it's losing ridership itself (and FWIW, I can never seem to catch it. I've tried taking the M100/101 to the M60 as an alternative to just walking to the train, but then I get to the stop, see a bus and the next one isn't for 20 minutes so I give up and just walk to 125th & Broadway for the there).

 

Heck, a few days ago, I see an M60 sitting at the terminal. No clue when he was going to leave, but I saw an M104 in the distance so I walked to the next stop and jumped on that. It's quick once you're on it, but it still has its share of reliability issues even with the bus lanes.

 

Funny B46 was always number one for almost 10 years straight until the Bx12 SBS was created.... Now the B46 is number 3???? Ok....

 

The Bx12, M15, and B46 have always flip-flopped in their order of ridership. The main route I remember being number 1 was the M15. Then a few years ago (maybe around 2012 or so. I forget offhand) it became the B46, which stayed that way for a couple of years and then the Bx12 became the official busiest route.

[B35 via Church]

The Bx12, M15, and B46 have always flip-flopped in their order of ridership. The main route I remember being number 1 was the M15. Then a few years ago (maybe around 2012 or so. I forget offhand) it became the B46, which stayed that way for a couple of years and then the Bx12 became the official busiest route.

Not quite; at least as far as I can recall anyway.....

 

As far back as the early 2000's, the history goes that the M15 & the B46 were 1 and 2, carrying 50k & better a day..... Bx12 was in the mix of those routes that were in the 40k/day range (B6, B41, B44, concourse corridor; which they still won't provide separate stats for, but w/e) back then....

 

Even if we fast-forward about a decade, annually speaking, the M15 was the top dog up until 2010 when the B46 took the top spot..... It (the B46) only had it for that year until the M15 reclaimed it back.... It (the M15) held serve until 2014 (sometime in 2013 was the year they took service away from the M15 local & basically gave the equivalent amt. of it to the M15 SBS..... I remember M15 riders complaining about that vividly... there may even be some posts talking about it in on here), which was the year the Bx12 took off (as being #1) & hasn't looked back since.....

 

Where I agree with ENY is that, I don't believe the B46 started falling off in the late 2000's like that.... The way its shown that it fell off in that time frame is similar to the way the B46 has fell off the past 2-3 years or so..... I mean, from my vantage point, there was really nothing that suggested such losses back then - service-wise anyway..... I refuse to believe the B46 was losing ridership back then at the rate that it is now.....

With that said, my gripe isn't with the statistical relationship b/w the B46 & the Bx12/SBS as his might be (judging by that quote you're responding to), my gripe is with the earlier statistical relationship between the B46 & the M15..... If we factor in farebeaters, the B46 was carrying around just as many people as the M15.... I'd say the B46 was a route that saw the most farebeaters in the whole system...... M15's per trip were not blowing the B46 out of the water like the stats would suggest..... The Bx12 OTOH was a route that was off in the background gaining steam when Bronxites as a whole started shunning other east-west routes; SBS only made things more conspicuous/only widened the gap.....

 

So to sum up my reply (in terms of what's said in your reply here), it wasn't a case of the M15, B46, Bx12 flip-flopping podium positions.... It was the M15 & B46 amassing the 1st & 2nd most usage in the system.... The Bx12 was off in the (close) distance..... Remember what I said about those routes that were in the 40k/day range? Well the Bx12 was the only one that saw increases over the years (that much, I believe the stats on)..... Usage on the concourse (if you ask me), on the B44, and on the B6 has been more or less stagnant over the years, & the B41 saw serious decreases the past decade or so (which is clearly evident, as a Brooklynite, I didn't need stats to tell me that)..... There are many reasons for that, but I've gone far enough off topic, so I'll exit stage left for now.......

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

 

 

The Bx12, M15, and B46 have always flip-flopped in their order of ridership. The main route I remember being number 1 was the M15. Then a few years ago (maybe around 2012 or so. I forget offhand) it became the B46, which stayed that way for a couple of years and then the Bx12 became the official busiest route.

 

I'm concerned about the M15 and B46 not because of their place in the ridership rankings (being #2 and #3 in NYC is no small order) but because of the declines in the last couple of years. These are routes that for decades have been hovering at or above the 50k territory (the M15 was considerably above it in the early 2010's) and in 2016 both posted below 45k. It's not normal to see such staggering losses so quickly and there's no evidence to believe that the lost passengers are coming back. To return to the 50k range these routes would have to gain back passengers at rates that no other routes are gaining at. The other cause for concern is that the infrastructure to support these routes (i.e. service levels, dispatching procedures, etc,.) has been built on an expectation of ridership around or above the 50k range. In that sense these routes are under-performing and it's not a good look for a bus system when routes near the top of the rankings are under-performers.

 

The 2017 numbers are what will really be telling because another year of declines will push both into the lower third of the 40-50k range and then you have to question whether the days of any route pushing above 50k in this city are long gone and what it means as far as allocation of service between different routes. Will the M15 and B46 start to lose service over the years to support feeders in Queens (which for the most part aren't losing riders)? Will the concept of ultra-low headway service (like the current B46) be a thing of the past on any NYC route? How will commuters react to headways being widened on the top routes when unreliability is a huge issue and will be further exposed with less buses in service? These are all concerns of mine especially when outside of the U.S. the busiest surface routes are still as strong as ever. 

[B35 via Church]

When you think about it, the Bx15 is the only true 125th crosstown line. The M60 and M100/M101 don't come into the picture until Amsterdam and the M101 splits off at Lex.

 

You're right in the sense that if the MTA were to cut the Manhattan portion off the Bx15, they'd be making a big mistake. IMO, I feel like there's no need for some of those trips to short turn at the Hub. Those KB runs should go down to Harlem too (end them at 125th/2nd ave), and interline a few of them with the M100. Those Hub-Fordham riders have the Bx41/SBS not too far away, and they seem to run pretty frequently.

Honestly, I was never fond of the Bx15 (or any route needing to) having to run clear across 125th... I always used to think that the SB M11/M60 stop @ 125th (alongside the projects) could make for a sufficient enough terminal for the Bx15 - Of course, that was well before they converted the M60 to SBS (& had to install TVM's there) & making the Bx15 an artic route.....

 

In a perfect world, I would like to see a dynamic where the M100 & the M101 become the quote-unquote official 125th st crosstown.... Structured similar to the M14A/D, where the M100 would serve territory north of 125th like it currently does & the M101 would (only) serve territory south of 125th.... I may post this entire plan in the Manhattan ideas thread (if I can even find it.... LOL!).....

 

It always seemed like they hated having the 55... first the 161 runs went, then the Gun hill ones, then they started chopping back the hours/days. In my head, having some of the LTDs remain in the Bronx would fix its unrelability but then that brings up the question: are they actually trying to keep people on the 15 and satisfied or just trying to force them onto the 41?

 

One thing that the OP mentioned that we haven't discussed is that new Fordham Plaza sucks at turning the 15/17 runs. I think the 17 suffers less but I'm not convinced the 15 loop is a lot better than the old setup (it seemed like they had more room back in the day) . I've seen it take a good 5-10 mins to get a N/b going back south because either ops parked awkwardly or arrived out of order. Add the dwell time in and it can get bad quickly.

They didn't like the fact they were losing all that money, having to use the route as a substitute for the former 3rd av subway line - with the compromise of giving riders the ability to xfer to Gun Hill subway & 3rd-149th subway freely before the advent of the metrocard back in '93/94 or whenever it was.....

 

Service-wise, quite sure they hated having to dedicate as many resources to supply for Bx41's (which of course ran up to Wakefield then) and Bx55's.... At the same time, they always wanted a "Bx15 LTD" instead of the Bx55 anyway....

 

As for your question, I think they would like to revert the Bx15 to the service levels it had before they got rid of the Bx55.... Basically, completely washing its hands of the Bx55 - while still providing 3rd av with LTD service (think about how much less service that would yield for those folks!)... If they lose Bx15/LTD riders to one of their babies (as I call SBS service); the Bx41SBS, as a result of it.... well...

 

...I can't fathom the MTA having any qualms to that

 

The MTA may have done right by creating a Bx41 SBS, but it was dead wrong with how they washed their hands with the Bx55..... Funny how down there in Queens, all they did to (another route that replaced rail service) the Q53, was eradicate the antiquated non-stop portion & gave it anabolic damn steroids in terms of service....

 

If you ask me, the Bx55 could have been the Bronx equivalent to the Q53 in terms of popularity..... Right along with the infamous Bx12..... But, like the conclusion to the age old tootsie pop dilemma:

 

[B35 via Church]

I'm concerned about the M15 and B46 not because of their place in the ridership rankings (being #2 and #3 in NYC is no small order) but because of the declines in the last couple of years. These are routes that for decades have been hovering at or above the 50k territory (the M15 was considerably above it in the early 2010's) and in 2016 both posted below 45k. It's not normal to see such staggering losses so quickly and there's no evidence to believe that the lost passengers are coming back. To return to the 50k range these routes would have to gain back passengers at rates that no other routes are gaining at. The other cause for concern is that the infrastructure to support these routes (i.e. service levels, dispatching procedures, etc,.) has been built on an expectation of ridership around or above the 50k range. In that sense these routes are under-performing and it's not a good look for a bus system when routes near the top of the rankings are under-performers.

 

The 2017 numbers are what will really be telling because another year of declines will push both into the lower third of the 40-50k range and then you have to question whether the days of any route pushing above 50k in this city are long gone and what it means as far as allocation of service between different routes. Will the M15 and B46 start to lose service over the years to support feeders in Queens (which for the most part aren't losing riders)? Will the concept of ultra-low headway service (like the current B46) be a thing of the past on any NYC route? How will commuters react to headways being widened on the top routes when unreliability is a huge issue and will be further exposed with less buses in service? These are all concerns of mine especially when outside of the U.S. the busiest surface routes are still as strong as ever. 

I'm not sure if concerned is the word for it for me... I'm more miffed/agitated & it's maybe because I see what's happening here.... We can forget about either one of those routes ever returning to the 50k/weekday mark for a whole host of different reasons we on this forum have already discussed in multiple threads/discussions..... The M15 is going to see even more losses when SAS starts to cement its footprint in this city like the rest of the Manhattan trunk lines have - and it's (SAS) isn't even fully complete yet...... As for the B46, that route's gonna see more losses too, as there are a plethora of physical buses being ran on that route that are skipping too many stops (that's SBS) where too many passengers are being bypassed/affected.... I would have never thought I lived to see the day, but I'm actually starting to notice more people waiting along Kings Hwy (B7) around here... I am flat out amazed wtf they've done to the B46.... Locals are crushloaded to the gills, while you see all these 1/2 to 2/3rds empty SBS' all over the place.... I hate to say it, but it reeks of sabotagery - and for what purpose, I do not know.....

 

Yeah, like I said in the shoutbox the other day:

  : (01 June - 07:23 PM)

So the ridership stats are up, and strangely, I'm more interested in next years stats than I am this year's..... It's going to tell more of the story IMO

 

I mean, the MTA can push whatever narrative it wants, with how many folks are so satisfied as it pertains to "their" corridor having SBS, but in reality, real people are doing real talking with their feet - And there are less of em traversing through some bus before disembarking one upon getting to some destination.... To be perfectly honest, I can't blame 'em... I'm finding myself doing way more driving this year than I ever did last year....

[bobtehpanda]

I am a bit curious - prior to Metrocard Gold, the Bx55 was one of the few lines that enjoyed free transfer privileges to the subway. Once the Metrocard happened, this wasn't an advantage anymore. Did any meaningful shift in ridership happen during that time? Online stats don't go that far back.

[checkmatechamp13]

I am a bit curious - prior to Metrocard Gold, the Bx55 was one of the few lines that enjoyed free transfer privileges to the subway. Once the Metrocard happened, this wasn't an advantage anymore. Did any meaningful shift in ridership happen during that time? Online stats don't go that far back.

 

I don't remember where I read it, but I remember them mentioning that a lot of ridership shifted to the crosstown buses like the Bx35, Bx11, etc which gave riders quicker access to the subway as opposed to having to take the Bx55 all the way to The Hub or Yankee Stadium.

[Union Tpke]

East New York, what do you think the solution to this is? You clearly know a great deal on the subject.

[Q43 Floral Park]

I don't remember where I read it, but I remember them mentioning that a lot of ridership shifted to the crosstown buses like the Bx35, Bx11, etc which gave riders quicker access to the subway as opposed to having to take the Bx55 all the way to The Hub or Yankee Stadium.

 

I've never heard this before but that's interesting... In terms of train access it makes sense but all of the Bx crosstowns are still slow as molasses lol.

 

Honestly, I was never fond of the Bx15 (or any route needing to) having to run clear across 125th... I always used to think that the SB M11/M60 stop @ 125th (alongside the projects) could make for a sufficient enough terminal for the Bx15 - Of course, that was well before they converted the M60 to SBS (& had to install TVM's there) & making the Bx15 an artic route.....

 

In a perfect world, I would like to see a dynamic where the M100 & the M101 become the quote-unquote official 125th st crosstown.... Structured similar to the M14A/D, where the M100 would serve territory north of 125th like it currently does & the M101 would (only) serve territory south of 125th.... I may post this entire plan in the Manhattan ideas thread (if I can even find it.... LOL!).....

 

They didn't like the fact they were losing all that money, having to use the route as a substitute for the former 3rd av subway line - with the compromise of giving riders the ability to xfer to Gun Hill subway & 3rd-149th subway freely before the advent of the metrocard back in '93/94 or whenever it was.....

 

Service-wise, quite sure they hated having to dedicate as many resources to supply for Bx41's (which of course ran up to Wakefield then) and Bx55's.... At the same time, they always wanted a "Bx15 LTD" instead of the Bx55 anyway....

 

As for your question, I think they would like to revert the Bx15 to the service levels it had before they got rid of the Bx55.... Basically, completely washing its hands of the Bx55 - while still providing 3rd av with LTD service (think about how much less service that would yield for those folks!)... If they lose Bx15/LTD riders to one of their babies (as I call SBS service); the Bx41SBS, as a result of it.... well...

 

...I can't fathom the MTA having any qualms to that

 

The MTA may have done right by creating a Bx41 SBS, but it was dead wrong with how they washed their hands with the Bx55..... Funny how down there in Queens, all they did to (another route that replaced rail service) the Q53, was eradicate the antiquated non-stop portion & gave it anabolic damn steroids in terms of service....

 

If you ask me, the Bx55 could have been the Bronx equivalent to the Q53 in terms of popularity..... Right along with the infamous Bx12.....

 

If you short turn the Bx15 at Grant/Manhattanville Houses, wouldn't you have to give people a 2-leg x-fer to the 104 to hit Broadway? I get the 41/55 duplication part but this kinda sounds like they've reneged on their commitment to the community (can't really call the 41SBS a 3 Av Subway Replacement when it's on Webster). The concept of running any less Bx15 service would be a nightmare though.

 

On the last part, What would that have required? SBS or just more service?

[Around the Horn]

Somewhat O/T, but isn't the Bx55 still in the destination sign programs?

[B35 via Church]

If you short turn the Bx15 at Grant/Manhattanville Houses, wouldn't you have to give people a 2-leg x-fer to the 104 to hit Broadway? I get the 41/55 duplication part but this kinda sounds like they've reneged on their commitment to the community (can't really call the 41SBS a 3 Av Subway Replacement when it's on Webster). The concept of running any less Bx15 service would be a nightmare though.

 

On the last part, What would that have required? SBS or just more service?

Not a short turn, but a full time terminal..... Anyway, nah, you wouldn't have needed any 2-legged xfers for the M104; anyone needing SB service could cross 125th & catch a TSQ bound 104...... Anyone needing the M4 or the would have to walk over a block to Broadway.....

 

As for the last part, more service.... More than what's provided on the Bx15 currently, but less than the amt. of BPH that's provided along the Concourse....

[checkmatechamp13]

I've never heard this before but that's interesting... In terms of train access it makes sense but all of the Bx crosstowns are still slow as molasses lol.

 

I have limited experience with the Bronx crosstowns, but from a few rides, my impressions were that the Bx19 & Bx40/42 were slow, the Bx6 was quick in the portion I rode it (3rd to Prospect) and the Bx11/35 were fairly quick in general (I was expecting a long ride and next thing I know I look up and I'm already at my destination)

 

Not a short turn, but a full time terminal..... Anyway, nah, you wouldn't have needed any 2-legged xfers for the M104; anyone needing SB service could cross 125th & catch a TSQ bound 104...... Anyone needing the M4 or the would have to walk over a block to Broadway.....

 

I think he's referring to those who need the M4 or train (so they could take the Bx15-M104-M4/(1)

 

In any case, what would the turnaround scenario be? If buses are going to take Amsterdam-LaSalle-Broadway, I don't see why the last stop can't be Broadway. But even then, I usually see like 3-4 people get off at Broadway (usually in that case I'm one of them) and there's still a couple of people on going to the last stop (sometimes B/Os going to Manhattanville coming off one of the subway lines). I just don't see buses tanking out at Amsterdam like that (or coming in with nobody and picking up heavy heading eastbound). 

[B35 via Church]

In any case, what would the turnaround scenario be? If buses are going to take Amsterdam-LaSalle-Broadway, I don't see why the last stop can't be Broadway. But even then, I usually see like 3-4 people get off at Broadway (usually in that case I'm one of them) and there's still a couple of people on going to the last stop (sometimes B/Os going to Manhattanville coming off one of the subway lines). I just don't see buses tanking out at Amsterdam like that (or coming in with nobody and picking up heavy heading eastbound). 

Never said anything about buses tanking at/picking up heavy at Amsterdam, because I know that isn't the case... But along 125th in general, there is clearly more demand for getting to & from Amsterdam than there is for getting to & from Broadway..... The ampersands are the operatives there - Bx15 usage is much more moderate heading EB than WB, which is why I'd would've had buses ending on the south end of 125th, instead of turning off terminating northwards w/ the M104 or something (which would've completely shunned Broadway users)....

 

I don't see anymore of an advantage ending buses at Broadway over Amsterdam.

 

As for the turnaround, yeah, Amsterdam > LaSalle> Broadway > back to 125th.....

Last dropoff & first pickup stop at Amsterdam/125th, 2nd EB stop is 125th/Broadway (current Bx15 EB stop)....

[Q43 Floral Park]

Not a short turn, but a full time terminal..... Anyway, nah, you wouldn't have needed any 2-legged xfers for the M104; anyone needing SB service could cross 125th & catch a TSQ bound 104...... Anyone needing the M4 or the would have to walk over a block to Broadway.....

 

As for the last part, more service.... More than what's provided on the Bx15 currently, but less than the amt. of BPH that's provided along the Concourse....

 

Got it, Can this still be done now that they've basically blocked off Amsterdam/125 for the M60 SBS?

 

Side note, the other day I was wondering if the Concourse has too much service running the whole thing (watched 9 buses hit Fordham N/B in 2 light sequences during a weekday PM).

 

 

I have limited experience with the Bronx crosstowns, but from a few rides, my impressions were that the Bx19 & Bx40/42 were slow, the Bx6 was quick in the portion I rode it (3rd to Prospect) and the Bx11/35 were fairly quick in general (I was expecting a long ride and next thing I know I look up and I'm already at my destination)

 

It all depends on what you consider a crosstown but for me the issue is a general lack of LTD service, MTA knows how dependent the borough is on buses yet leaves people out to dry making every stop....

 

IMO Bx19/21/40/42 are all nightmares (no one really talks about how bad the 21 is); the Bx6/35 are quick (I commented on the Bx11/35 in the Bronx proposal thread; the Bx36 despite having LTD is so-so because it meanders a lot; The Bx5/16/26/30 are decent; the Bx4/9-11/28/38 are adequate at best. the Bx22 is probably the best actual crosstown (except for when Fordham becomes a parking lot)...

[checkmatechamp13]

Never said anything about buses tanking at/picking up heavy at Amsterdam, because I know that isn't the case... But along 125th in general, there is clearly more demand for getting to & from Amsterdam than there is for getting to & from Broadway..... The ampersands are the operatives there - Bx15 usage is much more moderate heading EB than WB, which is why I'd would've had buses ending on the south end of 125th, instead of turning off terminating northwards w/ the M104 or something (which would've completely shunned Broadway users)....

 

I don't see anymore of an advantage ending buses at Broadway over Amsterdam.

 

As for the turnaround, yeah, Amsterdam > LaSalle> Broadway > back to 125th.....

Last dropoff & first pickup stop at Amsterdam/125th, 2nd EB stop is 125th/Broadway (current Bx15 EB stop)....

 

The advantage would be that people don't have to walk if they want to make a transfer at Broadway: They can just ride it all the way out there.

 

I mean, I don't see why anybody would get on at the southbound M60 stop just to ride around the loop when they could simply cross the street and pick it up at the eastbound M100/101 stop. And there wouldn't be much of a point in having buses terminate at Amsterdam, and run light to 125th & Broadway (it's not like it makes it that much easier to head back to/from the depot, like if the origin was one one side of the depot but the terminal was on the other side, adjacent to the depot like the M104 around the old Amsterdam Depot). 

[B35 via Church]

Got it, Can this still be done now that they've basically blocked off Amsterdam/125 for the M60 SBS?

 

Side note, the other day I was wondering if the Concourse has too much service running the whole thing

(watched 9 buses hit Fordham N/B in 2 light sequences during a weekday PM).

Nah, no chance now... I brought that up about the TVM installations & what not at the stop in an earlier reply to you; it's why I'm not as adamant about the idea anymore.

 

About the Concourse routes, sometimes I feel there's excessive service....

I mean IDK, ever since they took the Bx2 off Teller, etc., things just don't feel the same along the Concourse in general.... Can't really explain it....

 

 

The advantage would be that people don't have to walk if they want to make a transfer at Broadway: They can just ride it all the way out there.

 

I mean, I don't see why anybody would get on at the southbound M60 stop just to ride around the loop when they could simply cross the street and pick it up at the eastbound M100/101 stop. And there wouldn't be much of a point in having buses terminate at Amsterdam, and run light to 125th & Broadway (it's not like it makes it that much easier to head back to/from the depot, like if the origin was one one side of the depot but the terminal was on the other side, adjacent to the depot like the M104 around the old Amsterdam Depot). 

I said any more of an advantage, not what the advantage would be....

 

You have your ideals/standards, but see, I don't necessarily believe connections should be kept at all costs if they are not as utilized as much as they probably should be... In this particular case, it's (the lack of usage) happening in one direction.... The running light from Amsterdam/125th to 125th/Broadway I don't see as an issue ; it's a turnaround scenario....

 

So the way I see it, if there were as many (or about as many) people riding EB from Broadway than there are WB to Broadway, then to be perfectly honest, I'd leave buses running to 12th av (instead of ending buses at Broadway).... Since it isn't the case, (save for that Amsterdam stop in question being an SBS station now) I'd have seen no problem having the last WB dropoff & 1st EB pickup on the Amsterdam side of the projects & having the 2nd EB pickup stop at the current EB stop at 125th/Broadway....

 

Sure, the M100/101 is another option - they're the same option available, regardless if the Bx15 were to be truncated as discussed, or left alone to run to 12th/125th....

[checkmatechamp13]

I said any more of an advantage, not what the advantage would be....

 

You have your ideals/standards, but see, I don't necessarily believe connections should be kept at all costs if they are not as utilized as much as they probably should be... In this particular case, it's (the lack of usage) happening in one direction.... The running light from Amsterdam/125th to 125th/Broadway I don't see as an issue ; it's a turnaround scenario....

 

So the way I see it, if there were as many (or about as many) people riding EB from Broadway than there are WB to Broadway, then to be perfectly honest, I'd leave buses running to 12th av (instead of ending buses at Broadway).... Since it isn't the case, (save for that Amsterdam stop in question being an SBS station now) I'd have seen no problem having the last WB dropoff & 1st EB pickup on the Amsterdam side of the projects & having the 2nd EB pickup stop at the current EB stop at 125th/Broadway....

 

Sure, the M100/101 is another option - they're the same option available, regardless if the Bx15 were to be truncated as discussed, or left alone to run to 12th/125th....

 

With the M100/101 stop, I was referring to it in terms of it being a Bx15 stop. In other words, what's the motivation for somebody to catch the Bx15 at the first EB stop (Amsterdam & 125th) as opposed to the third EB stop (125th & Amsterdam)? Like yeah, if it's cold outside you get to wait in a warm bus, but if you walk across the street, you will most likely catch the bus that left in front of the one that's on layover.

 

In any case, from what I'm understanding, you would prefer to have the Bx15 truncated (if it weren't for the M60 SBS) because of an imbalance in ridership in eastbound vs. westbound buses. But the way I see it, westbound ridership isn't that low to the point where it's worth cutting it back in the westbound direction. It's a respectable amount but just lower than EB ridership IMO. I usually see 3-4 people getting off when I take it there (usually because I got fed up with waiting for the M60 or M104 to the UWS so I just say screw it and hop on the Bx15 to the )

[B35 via Church]

With the M100/101 stop, I was referring to it in terms of it being a Bx15 stop. In other words, what's the motivation for somebody to catch the Bx15 at the first EB stop (Amsterdam & 125th) as opposed to the third EB stop (125th & Amsterdam)? Like yeah, if it's cold outside you get to wait in a warm bus, but if you walk across the street, you will most likely catch the bus that left in front of the one that's on layover.

 

In any case, from what I'm understanding, you would prefer to have the Bx15 truncated (if it weren't for the M60 SBS) because of an imbalance in ridership in eastbound vs. westbound buses. But the way I see it, westbound ridership isn't that low to the point where it's worth cutting it back in the westbound direction. It's a respectable amount but just lower than EB ridership IMO. I usually see 3-4 people getting off when I take it there (usually because I got fed up with waiting for the M60 or M104 to the UWS so I just say screw it and hop on the Bx15 to the )

Alright, but none of that in the 1st paragraph is the motive though..... I'm not advocating people take the Bx15 over the M100/M101 or vice versa.... If riding around the projects would loom to be a huge deterrent, then, again - the M100/101 is right there as was said.... That combination (odds of catching a 100 or a 101) is more frequent than the Bx15 by itself anyway, so I expect more people to gun for M100's/101's....

 

Not saying/insinuating you do or don't, but I must be one of the few that doesn't view the Bx15 as an unofficial 125th st crosstown or w/e (even though it happens to serve more of 125th); I see it as a Bronx route that runs along 125th - always did.... If anything, I tend to view the M100/101 as a quote-unquote 125th crosstown.... I happen to think the Bx15 serves too much of 125th; I would really like to end it at St. Nich', but that is not feasible at all.....

 

Your 2nd paragraph, well somewhat, but not entirely..... It's more about the lack of demand for 125th st period past Amsterdam (not just concerning bus usage either; it's something that even hampers the ... 116th sees high usage for obvious reasons, 137th sees high usage for obvious reasons, then there's 125th st stuck in-between the that sees significantly less usage.... I don't even want to compare the usages of other 125th st stations to it).... Regarding the imbalance though, if I were to judge by your assessment, EB ridership from B'way has either plummeted or WB usage to B'way has went up significantly.....

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

Things along 125th are going to change significantly with the expansion of the Columbia University campus of which a new Science building has already been completed facing 125th.