Abba Posted June 30, 2017 Share #1 Posted June 30, 2017 Since this article came out things have gotten slightly better but there is still quite a way to go.its very interesting.have a look. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/why-dont-we-know-where-all-the-trains-are/415152/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deucey Posted June 30, 2017 Share #2 Posted June 30, 2017 Have they? Yeah there's Bluetooth at Broadway stations on the Broadway line, but I never know when an train is coming at Court Street or MetroTech... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted June 30, 2017 Share #3 Posted June 30, 2017 Have they? Yeah there's Bluetooth at Broadway stations on the Broadway line, but I never know when an train is coming at Court Street or MetroTech... The maddening thing is the lines that are the worst don't have countdown clocks. Sometimes I wonder if that's just a "coincidence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted June 30, 2017 Share #4 Posted June 30, 2017 This is not exactly breaking news here. We all know why it wasn't possible to get real-time train tracking data until fairly recently. With the dated signal system in place across most of the B-Division, there is no way to accurately track the trains. Without transponders on the trains and WiFi in the stations, it would still be impossible unless the signal system was upgraded to at least what the numbered lines have with the ATS system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted June 30, 2017 Share #5 Posted June 30, 2017 The maddening thing is the lines that are the worst don't have countdown clocks. Sometimes I wonder if that's just a "coincidence". The and the , which have some of the worst delays in the entire system at times, are first to get the new countdown clocks installed. So I'm not sure why you're coming to that conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted June 30, 2017 Share #6 Posted June 30, 2017 The and the , which have some of the worst delays in the entire system at times, are first to get the new countdown clocks installed. So I'm not sure why you're coming to that conclusion. You just reinforced my point.... The lines with the worst service DON'T have countdown clocks, and they should. Those lines should've been given priority. As usual we get excuses... Equipment is too old... Blah blah blah... Just get it done... The public doesn't hear why and I don't blame them. In 2017, all lines should have countdown clocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abba Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share #7 Posted June 30, 2017 Have they? Yeah there's Bluetooth at Broadway stations on the Broadway line, but I never know when an train is coming at Court Street or MetroTech... you can check on Citymapper app. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deucey Posted June 30, 2017 Share #8 Posted June 30, 2017 You just reinforced my point.... The lines with the worst service DON'T have countdown clocks, and they should. Those lines should've been given priority. As usual we get excuses... Equipment is too old... Blah blah blah... Just get it done... The public doesn't hear why and I don't blame them. In 2017, all lines should have countdown clocks.Exactly this!!! It can't possibly be that difficult or expensive to put transponders on the first and last cars and some sensors in the tunnel and have them relay the trains position to RCC and a station display. You don't even have to wait for CBTC or signal upgrades to do it, and given how shit breaks down regularly on the two CBTC-ready/active lines, having a redundant system for train positioning is a GOOD thing. Hell, I just googled and found this system the mining industry uses: http://www.iwtwireless.com/mining/communications-tracking/overview/ So it ain't that hard to do, nor hard to find... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted June 30, 2017 Share #9 Posted June 30, 2017 Exactly this!!! It can't possibly be that difficult or expensive to put transponders on the first and last cars and some sensors in the tunnel and have them relay the trains position to RCC and a station display. You don't even have to wait for CBTC or signal upgrades to do it, and given how shit breaks down regularly on the two CBTC-ready/active lines, having a redundant system for train positioning is a GOOD thing. Hell, I just googled and found this system the mining industry uses: http://www.iwtwireless.com/mining/communications-tracking/overview/ So it ain't that hard to do, nor hard to find... It's another example of the and their inability to complete projects within a reasonable amount of time and within a reasonable budget. Lord knows how much we're on the hook for to get such a simple piece of technology. I'd go one further and say if it's that costly and time consuming, team up with one of these outside vendors that's providing countdown service and real time in the meantime. I'm sure they would like the exposure. I should remind people that BusTime was done IN HOUSE. Surely they could do something similar with the trains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance Posted June 30, 2017 Share #10 Posted June 30, 2017 Tracking buses is easy. It's just a matter of putting a transponder on a bus, linking that to a system that recognizes what bus it is and connecting it to a GPS network. It's a bit more involved with the subway because it's underground and therefore cannot rely on GPS. Sure, they could in theory get the South Brooklyn lines and parts of the Eastern Division online with GPS, but with most of the system below ground, that kind of tracking would be useless for most of the lines, especially the fully underground ones like the and . That's why the real-time B-Division train arrivals pilot only came about after in-station WiFi was fully installed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted June 30, 2017 Share #11 Posted June 30, 2017 Tracking buses is easy. It's just a matter of putting a transponder on a bus, linking that to a system that recognizes what bus it is and connecting it to a GPS network. It's a bit more involved with the subway because it's underground and therefore cannot rely on GPS. Sure, they could in theory get the South Brooklyn lines and parts of the Eastern Division online with GPS, but with most of the system below ground, that kind of tracking would be useless for most of the lines, especially the fully underground ones like the and . That's why the real-time B-Division train arrivals pilot only came about after in-station WiFi was fully installed. Ok, so why can't they partner up with an outside vendor? There appears to apps out there that can show these lines in real time? All I'm hearing is more excuses as to why we can't get anything for these lines in 2017. It's inexcusable. And actually, it isn't oh so easy to track buses. How many years did the try to get an outside vendor to do just that and failed? Only then did they go in house after all sorts of delays and lawsuits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deucey Posted June 30, 2017 Share #12 Posted June 30, 2017 Tracking buses is easy. It's just a matter of putting a transponder on a bus, linking that to a system that recognizes what bus it is and connecting it to a GPS network. It's a bit more involved with the subway because it's underground and therefore cannot rely on GPS. Sure, they could in theory get the South Brooklyn lines and parts of the Eastern Division online with GPS, but with most of the system below ground, that kind of tracking would be useless for most of the lines, especially the fully underground ones like the and . That's why the real-time B-Division train arrivals pilot only came about after in-station WiFi was fully installed. Used in mines: http://www.iwtwireless.com/mining/communications-tracking/sentinel/overview Mines are underground. With curves and inclines and stuff. The subway is 45% underground. With curves and inclines and stuff. This system has wifi, transponders and receivers. Subway could too. And the benefit is that instead of waiting for CBTC and integrated signaling and whatever bureaucratic intelligence speak TA uses to get countdown timers, this could be used to tell us when the train is coming and possibly by dispatchers to motormen to bypass broken signals and minimize delays or run trains closer together. And it could be implemented PDQ, versus 50 years of CBTC installation. Not bad for a (useful) stopgap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted June 30, 2017 Share #13 Posted June 30, 2017 Ok, so why can't they partner up with an outside vendor? There appears to apps out there that can show these lines in real time? All I'm hearing is more excuses as to why we can't get anything for these lines in 2017. It's inexcusable. Those apps depend on the in house data released by the MTA. There are a couple of apps that try to crowdsource it, but that requires having the app on every subway passenger's phone for it to be reliable enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted June 30, 2017 Share #14 Posted June 30, 2017 Those apps depend on the in house data released by the MTA. There are a couple of apps that try to crowdsource it, but that requires having the app on every subway passenger's phone for it to be reliable enough. Interesting... So you're telling me there is actually data that they could use and provide that to the public... Well what's wrong with publicizing it having people use the app then? Even if it's isn't extremely reliable, it's better than nothing at all. It's not like the current countdown clocks are that accurate. If you notice, the countdown clocks will say that a train is due in 2 minutes, and then suddenly BAM, here comes a train roaring down the tunnel and into the station. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted June 30, 2017 Share #15 Posted June 30, 2017 Interesting... So you're telling me there is actually data that they could use and provide that to the public... Well what's wrong with publicizing it having people use the app then? Even if it's isn't extremely reliable, it's better than nothing at all. It's not like the current countdown clocks are that accurate. If you notice, the countdown clocks will say that a train is due in 2 minutes, and then suddenly BAM, here comes a train roaring down the tunnel and into the station. That in house data is what you see on the countdown clocks. If you're seeing stuff for the other lines, that's the Bluetooth pilot project. It is already all publicly available. A handful of apps, like Transit, have tried crowdsourcing it so that people can self-report where scheduled trains actually are, but this is not ideal because 1. This assumes that every train has one person on it with the App installed, 2. and is willing to report the location of their phone constantly, which as you could imagine hogs your battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotham Bus Co. Posted June 30, 2017 Share #16 Posted June 30, 2017 I seem to remember reading somewhere that one upstate legislator tried to ban countdown clocks on the grounds that "nobody needs them" (i.e. his district doesn't have subway service). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QM1to6Ave Posted June 30, 2017 Share #17 Posted June 30, 2017 Seriously, why hasn't the Bluetooth pilot project been expanded yet? The system seems relatively simple, even if not perfect. It's better than nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted June 30, 2017 Share #18 Posted June 30, 2017 You just reinforced my point.... The lines with the worst service DON'T have countdown clocks, and they should. Those lines should've been given priority. As usual we get excuses... Equipment is too old... Blah blah blah... Just get it done... The public doesn't hear why and I don't blame them. In 2017, all lines should have countdown clocks. They do have priority. The and is getting the bluetooth clocks first. They've been installed at all stations and are on at most stations. Soon they'll all being showing times. Exactly this!!! It can't possibly be that difficult or expensive to put transponders on the first and last cars and some sensors in the tunnel and have them relay the trains position to RCC and a station display. You don't even have to wait for CBTC or signal upgrades to do it, and given how shit breaks down regularly on the two CBTC-ready/active lines, having a redundant system for train positioning is a GOOD thing. Hell, I just googled and found this system the mining industry uses: http://www.iwtwireless.com/mining/communications-tracking/overview/ So it ain't that hard to do, nor hard to find... That's exactly what the MTA is in the midst of doing. Ok, so why can't they partner up with an outside vendor? There appears to apps out there that can show these lines in real time? All I'm hearing is more excuses as to why we can't get anything for these lines in 2017. It's inexcusable. And actually, it isn't oh so easy to track buses. How many years did the try to get an outside vendor to do just that and failed? Only then did they go in house after all sorts of delays and lawsuits. Used in mines: http://www.iwtwireless.com/mining/communications-tracking/sentinel/overview Mines are underground. With curves and inclines and stuff. The subway is 45% underground. With curves and inclines and stuff. This system has wifi, transponders and receivers. Subway could too. And the benefit is that instead of waiting for CBTC and integrated signaling and whatever bureaucratic intelligence speak TA uses to get countdown timers, this could be used to tell us when the train is coming and possibly by dispatchers to motormen to bypass broken signals and minimize delays or run trains closer together. And it could be implemented PDQ, versus 50 years of CBTC installation. Not bad for a (useful) stopgap. That in house data is what you see on the countdown clocks. If you're seeing stuff for the other lines, that's the Bluetooth pilot project. It is already all publicly available. A handful of apps, like Transit, have tried crowdsourcing it so that people can self-report where scheduled trains actually are, but this is not ideal because 1. This assumes that every train has one person on it with the App installed, 2. and is willing to report the location of their phone constantly, which as you could imagine hogs your battery. Seriously, why hasn't the Bluetooth pilot project been expanded yet? The system seems relatively simple, even if not perfect. It's better than nothing. Y'all do realize the exact solutions y'all are suggesting are being implemented as we speak?! For example, Seneca Avenue just got its clocks installed: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted June 30, 2017 Share #19 Posted June 30, 2017 Y'all do realize the exact solutions y'all are suggesting are being implemented as we speak?! For example, Seneca Avenue just got its clocks installed: Well let's get 'em on then... When are they supposed to be online?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted June 30, 2017 Share #20 Posted June 30, 2017 Well let's get 'em on then... When are they supposed to be online?? I haven't heard an estimate for just the and clocks, which go online first, but the entire system should have them all working by the end of the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QM1to6Ave Posted June 30, 2017 Share #21 Posted June 30, 2017 I haven't heard an estimate for just the and clocks, which go online first, but the entire system should have them all working by the end of the year. I sure hope you are right...this article says Spring 2018 http://www.amny.com/transit/mta-to-install-subway-countdown-clocks-on-all-lettered-lines-1.12619143 I have started seeing more screens getting installed in IND stations, so I'm hoping they make this a priority Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deucey Posted July 1, 2017 Share #22 Posted July 1, 2017 They do have priority. The and is getting the bluetooth clocks first. They've been installed at all stations and are on at most stations. Soon they'll all being showing times. That's exactly what the MTA is in the midst of doing. Y'all do realize the exact solutions y'all are suggesting are being implemented as we speak?! For example, Seneca Avenue just got its clocks installed: That's nice and all, but the problem is that said for years this couldn't happen until signals were upgraded, then magically someone googled and we have improvement. In all honesty, CBTC should've been combined with the reverse signaling project, but it wasn't (for various reasons that defy all logic). There shouldn't be a train car shortage, but there is because some people at didn't think about surplus, only cuts. Were this Bluetooth tracking likely to be utilized in the most effective way possible, we'd have a CBTC-lite initiative now with more dispatchers guiding trains and handing off like Air Traffic Controllers do planes. But nah. 's problem is they need visionaries in key management and staff positions instead of career linear thinkers furthering groupthink culture. Maybe Bluetooth will start the shake up, or maybe status quo continues. But until the former happens, we won't have nice things until we're in our 70s and 80s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Around the Horn Posted July 1, 2017 Share #23 Posted July 1, 2017 That's nice and all, but the problem is that said for years this couldn't happen until signals were upgraded, then magically someone googled and we have improvement. In all honesty, CBTC should've been combined with the reverse signaling project, but it wasn't (for various reasons that defy all logic). There shouldn't be a train car shortage, but there is because some people at didn't think about surplus, only cuts. Were this Bluetooth tracking likely to be utilized in the most effective way possible, we'd have a CBTC-lite initiative now with more dispatchers guiding trains and handing off like Air Traffic Controllers do planes. But nah. You would need WiFi in the tunnels to in addition to the stations before you could do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrome Posted July 1, 2017 Share #24 Posted July 1, 2017 They do have priority. The and is getting the bluetooth clocks first. They've been installed at all stations and are on at most stations. Soon they'll all being showing times. That's exactly what the MTA is in the midst of doing. ... Y'all do realize the exact solutions y'all are suggesting are being implemented as we speak?! Exactly. Thank you. The MTA heard the public's feedback and created the new Bluetooth + WiFi beacon tracking system for the lettered lines. They installed it on the Broadway (yellow) line in Manhattan as a six-month test. Before that test was even over, Cuomo ordered the MTA to expand it to all lines. They are doing that right now. The tracking system is being installed, as are the ceiling displays. If you haven't seen the displays going up... have you even been riding the system? How can you miss them? The MTA has a policy and a system to make real-time train data available to third parties via an API. As the tracking system is installed and activated, the data is being made available to third-party apps, like Citymapper. This makes it possible to see real-time arrival info for some lines even in stations where the ceiling displays aren't connected yet (thanks to systemwide Wi-Fi and your smartphone.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted July 1, 2017 Share #25 Posted July 1, 2017 Exactly. Thank you. The MTA heard the public's feedback and created the new Bluetooth + WiFi beacon tracking system for the lettered lines. They installed it on the Broadway (yellow) line in Manhattan as a six-month test. Before that test was even over, Cuomo ordered the MTA to expand it to all lines. They are doing that right now. The tracking system is being installed, as are the ceiling displays. If you haven't seen the displays going up... have you even been riding the system? How can you miss them? The MTA has a policy and a system to make real-time train data available to third parties via an API. As the tracking system is installed and activated, the data is being made available to third-party apps, like Citymapper. This makes it possible to see real-time arrival info for some lines even in stations where the ceiling displays aren't connected yet (thanks to systemwide Wi-Fi and your smartphone.) Given all of the delays of late, no people have been abandoning the system, myself included. My subway rides have been very short of late (one or two stops), ALWAYS outside of rush hour, and I now check before even taking the subway to see if there are any delays or issues, otherwise I don't bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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