July 2, 2017 Bus Service and Schedule Changes

[MikeC]

Getting rid of coaches is pointless. Express bus riders prefer them. When the Orion 5's were being used by CP along with the MCIs you can't imagine how many complaints there were. But, I do agree that for ADA accessibility purposes the coaches aren't as good. The lifts get stuck more often than you'd expect. Got my dad stuck a few times. But, with all NYCT spends on access-a-ride contracts I think thats a service that needs to be improved for ADA riders. Artics also are not the alternative. Think of all the express trips that are only pulling in a few riders on routes like the QM10 and 12. You have to buy all these new buses that are gonna be empty most of the time and replace good buses that have lots of life in them. 

[B35 via Church]

My express bus critique is not just based on Staten Island. The local bus and subway network does Staten Island commuters no justice and those are still more popular than express buses are. The general public is speaking loud and clear over all 4 outer boroughs saying that express buses are currently not worth the fare premium. In a world where they're not worth the premium the maintenance costs of a separate fleet of coach buses is just wasteful. My main problems with the use of coach buses are the added maintenance costs they require and the fact that you're signaling to riders the service provided by them is premium in nature. When folks think of coach buses services like Greyhound and Megabus come to mind and those are more expensive than a transit ride. Just the premium signal alone deters users. An urban mass transit operator is in NO business to be operating premium service, if people demand such let a private or suburban operator take care of them. 

 

I'm all for express buses because there is a place in the network for them. They should NOT be operated as premium services however and I feel that if they were not usage would skyrocket. 

Doesn't have to be based on SI.... I brought up SI specifically because you made a sticking point of how live NYC is & how a borough w/ no subway service (i.e., Staten Island) has an express route that garners 6k/weekday at the most - As if lowering the fare & running artics will a] keep the same clientele of current express bus riders utilizing the things & b] inherit some newfound heap of riders across the borough on top of it.... That is just too much wishful thinking, the way I see it...

 

As was said, you are making it sound like cost is the sole reason that people are speaking loud & clear (so to speak), but it's simply not the case... It's assuming that the millions of people that are taking the subway to Manhattan know where the express buses even go (when they see them out & about whilst in Manhattan), or worse, what the hell those "big tall buses" actually are...

Generally speaking, the express bus network is not all that expansive.... Also, they clearly don't run frequently enough as it is - but especially to accumulate any large enough of an influx of newfound usage that you believe would occur, given your criteria/suggestions.... And also, Seriously - I can not think of a time when the MTA's ever went out of their way to promote express bus usage - that has to change too....

 

As for coach buses being such this big problem, let's not exhume the antiquated talking points on these transit forums of the late 90's/early 2000's "express bus haters"...

 

To sum this up.... Trying to half-ass localize express buses, or better yet - Instill the image of a local bus into the minds of those that want to ride express buses, will not have commuters wanting to ride express buses....

 

You're assuming a lot. You're assuming that the cost is the sole reason why there's less ridership. That is not the case because if it was, then other premium services like Metro-North would NOT be seeing record ridership. The fare isn't so much the issue but rather congestion, and bus service in general is in DECLINE, so let's not act like because people pay $2.75 that usage will skyrocket. We also need to remember that express buses were put in place to eliminate two or three fare zones, so by theory they're going to be slightly more as a result since the idea is they're providing a one-year ride that should be faster than making a gazillion transfers. If I need to go to the East Side via subway and transfer to another bus, I'm going to have a LONG commute, and pay $5.50, and I know because I've tried it in the last. Meanwhile, for a dollar more, I can have a one seat ride to my destination. I don't understand why people have such a hard time understanding the purpose of commuter buses but are fine with commuter rail trains. Their purpose is the same really. Bring people who live far out into the CBD (Central Business District).

 

Express buses are not perfect, but the alternative is even more horrendous especially for someone who lives in a very hilly area like mine. Walking home from the subway is a very tedious, time-consuming and difficult task, so a bus is a must either way.

If anything, I've found that more "regular" people (or, those that wouldn't subscribe to, or fit the bill of being "premium") over the years are riding express buses... It isn't just a d*ck measuring little boys club like it used to be....

 

Way I see it, this shit keeps up with the subway & you're slowly going to start seeing people battening down the hatchets - whether that be by taking expresses, or taking the RR, or purchasing cars, or whatever..... I'll continue to say this until I'm dead - People are not as broke like they try to pretend that they are.

 

I don't get the sense that the purpose of commuter buses aren't being understood.... It's that, in general, people tend to affiliate trains with long distance commuting & buses for short distance commuting....

 

"You only rode the train for one stop???" vs. "Who in their right mind is gonna wanna take a bus from Kutztown to NY everyday???"

I've never been on a BM bus with more than 10 ppl, including me some buses struggle reach 5 passengers. This really concerns me.

During peak times in the peak direction?

[MikeC]

Politicians may be worthless but no point in protecting school bus service when school is out.   

 

As for your earlier statement on QM buses, IDK what you're talking about with those buses running on time. For some reason everytime i wait for a QM bus at Herald, there are always a bunch of buses parked, and when I talk to the B/O's they're all like, "I leave in an hour I'm not the next bus." With the next bus arriving 5-10 min late from the middle of nowhere. It makes me wonder if the bus ahead of your's is so early WTH is your bus doing late. 

 

 

Recently I've been using the LIRR for a buck more I can save 40min - 1hr20min on my bus ride. At this point I'm only using express buses for joy rides where time isn't a concern. 

 

...

 

Also the BM routes are the worst in the city IMO 

Bad Drivers, bad runtimes, late, infrequent, inconvenient routes, etc...

 

I've never been on a BM bus with more than 10 ppl, including me some buses struggle reach 5 passengers. This really concerns me.

They're so early cause they'd rather just layover in the city, instead of risking leaving the depot later and being late. Or they may be coming from Quill. But, I do agree that these buses are annoying and just get in the way.

[IAlam]

During peak times in the peak direction?

No ... but if that was the case idk what would happen.

 

 

They're so early cause they'd rather just layover in the city, instead of risking leaving the depot later and being late. Or they may be coming from Quill. But, I do agree that these buses are annoying and just get in the way.

I just can never understand why one bus is an hour early while the bus that supposed to leave is always late ... like WTH is going on. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I just can never understand why one bus is an hour early while the bus that supposed to leave is always late ... like WTH is going on.

 

And what line is this?

Doesn't have to be based on SI.... I brought up SI specifically because you made a sticking point of how live NYC is & how a borough w/ no subway service (i.e., Staten Island) has an express route that garners 6k/weekday at the most - As if lowering the fare & running artics will a] keep the same clientele of current express bus riders utilizing the things & b] inherit some newfound heap of riders across the borough on top of it.... That is just too much wishful thinking, the way I see it...

 

As was said, you are making it sound like cost is the sole reason that people are speaking loud & clear (so to speak), but it's simply not the case... It's assuming that the millions of people that are taking the subway to Manhattan know where the express buses even go (when they see them out & about whilst in Manhattan), or worse, what the hell those "big tall buses" actually are...

Generally speaking, the express bus network is not all that expansive.... Also, they clearly don't run frequently enough as it is - but especially to accumulate any large enough of an influx of newfound usage that you believe would occur, given your criteria/suggestions.... And also, Seriously - I can not think of a time when the MTA's ever went out of their way to promote express bus usage - that has to change too....

 

As for coach buses being such this big problem, let's not exhume the antiquated talking points on these transit forums of the late 90's/early 2000's "express bus haters"...

 

To sum this up.... Trying to half-ass localize express buses, or better yet - Instill the image of a local bus into the minds of those that want to ride express buses, will not have commuters wanting to ride express buses....

 

 

If anything, I've found that more "regular" people (or, those that wouldn't subscribe to, or fit the bill of being "premium") over the years are riding express buses... It isn't just a d*ck measuring little boys club like it used to be....

 

Way I see it, this shit keeps up with the subway & you're slowly going to start seeing people battening down the hatchets - whether that be by taking expresses, or taking the RR, or purchasing cars, or whatever..... I'll continue to say this until I'm dead - People are not as broke like they try to pretend that they are.

 

I don't get the sense that the purpose of commuter buses aren't being understood.... It's that, in general, people tend to affiliate trains with long distance commuting & buses for short distance commuting....

 

"You only rode the train for one stop???" vs. "Who in their right mind is gonna wanna take a bus from Kutztown to NY everyday???"

And that's precisely the problem...

Getting rid of coaches is pointless. Express bus riders prefer them. When the Orion 5's were being used by CP along with the MCIs you can't imagine how many complaints there were. But, I do agree that for ADA accessibility purposes the coaches aren't as good. The lifts get stuck more often than you'd expect. Got my dad stuck a few times. But, with all NYCT spends on access-a-ride contracts I think thats a service that needs to be improved for ADA riders. Artics also are not the alternative. Think of all the express trips that are only pulling in a few riders on routes like the QM10 and 12. You have to buy all these new buses that are gonna be empty most of the time and replace good buses that have lots of life in them.

 

I can tell you that despite having Metro-North that I often times take the express bus instead because it's simply more comfortable and relaxing and when traffic is decent, quick too.

[MikeC]

And what line is this?

And that's precisely the problem...

I can tell you that despite having Metro-North that I often times take the express bus instead because it's simply more comfortable and relaxing and when traffic is decent, quick too.

When I'm working long days and going home late I catch one of the express buses home for the same reason. If anything advertising them to everybody will ruin their whole purpose.  A  calm and relaxing commute is what I'm looking for. I don't want to be the one to say this but I guess I have to, the whole point is for it to be a premier service, I really don't look forward to seeing not so great people riding these buses if it's made cheaper. I'm not trying to sound like a pretentious person or a snob but many people just don't have courtesy or human decency. Then again you do get some stuck up a-holes on these buses too, and they've found drug needles on SI buses before. So bad elements are everywhere and 100% unavoidable.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

When I'm working long days and going home late I catch one of the express buses home for the same reason. If anything advertising them to everybody will ruin their whole purpose.  A  calm and relaxing commute is what I'm looking for. I don't want to be the one to say this but I guess I have to, the whole point is for it to be a premier service, I really don't look forward to seeing not so great people riding these buses if it's made cheaper. I'm not trying to sound like a pretentious person or a snob but many people just don't have courtesy or human decency. Then again you do get some stuck up a-holes on these buses too, and they've found drug needles on SI buses before. So bad elements are everywhere and 100% unavoidable.

Yes, but would you prefer to have a bus with 5 people on it and then have the MTA cut it, or a bus with 15+ people which can last for a longer (given that there's no severe budget cuts in store). You can always make a better case for a bus with more than a handful of people. There are plenty of buses, including some peak buses, which are not used to capacity. Express buses should be advertised quite frankly.

 

IMO, it would be interesting if a separate company ran all the express bus routes in the city. Depending on the company, they would go out to advertise their services over the MTA. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

When I'm working long days and going home late I catch one of the express buses home for the same reason. If anything advertising them to everybody will ruin their whole purpose.  A  calm and relaxing commute is what I'm looking for. I don't want to be the one to say this but I guess I have to, the whole point is for it to be a premier service, I really don't look forward to seeing not so great people riding these buses if it's made cheaper. I'm not trying to sound like a pretentious person or a snob but many people just don't have courtesy or human decency. Then again you do get some stuck up a-holes on these buses too, and they've found drug needles on SI buses before. So bad elements are everywhere and 100% unavoidable.

The thing is because there are no alternatives to the express bus on Staten Island, you get some not so savory characters riding at times. That was another reason I moved. Too many ghetto types as you described rode on weekends and I got sick of it. Mainly relegated to the X10, but the X1 has the loud obnoxious teenagers too. Don't get me wrong, I've had instances where I've had to speak my mind about a few loud mouths on the Riverdale buses too, but it's usually kids or a few chatty young females that don't know any better.

 

With the Staten Island express buses, it will only become worse as more people move there. The more frequent service may sound great, but that also means more rude inconsiderate types riding as well, as it becomes a service for the masses there since there are no other alternatives. That's one reason they need something like a fast ferry or something.

Yes, but would you prefer to have a bus with 5 people on it and then have the MTA cut it, or a bus with 15+ people which can last for a longer (given that there's no severe budget cuts in store). You can always make a better case for a bus with more than a handful of people. There are plenty of buses, including some peak buses, which are not used to capacity. Express buses should be advertised quite frankly.

 

IMO, it would be interesting if a separate company ran all the express bus routes in the city. Depending on the company, they would go out to advertise their services over the MTA. 

If the fare was ever lowered too much, I would switch to Metro-North. I've already been pushing for quiet cars on weekends as it is. It's generally a very civilized ride during the rush, especially in the quiet cars. On the subways there is just too much drama. You cannot get on and have a quiet ride anymore. Homeless, showtime people, beggars. It's endless. This is something else pushing people to more expensive options, be it the express bus, Uber or what have you. It is public transportation, but still. The local buses are not much better. Either overcrowded, late or both.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

The thing is because there are no alternatives to the express bus on Staten Island, you get some not so savory characters riding at times. That was another reason I moved. Too many ghetto types as you described rode on weekends and I got sick of it. Mainly relegated to the X10, but the X1 has the loud obnoxious teenagers too. Don't get me wrong, I've had instances where I've had to speak my mind about a few loud mouths on the Riverdale buses too, but it's usually kids or a few chatty young females that don't know any better.

If the fare was ever lowered too much, I would switch to Metro-North. I've already been pushing for quiet cars on weekends as it is. It's generally a very civilized ride during the rush, especially in the quiet cars. On the subways there is just too much drama. You cannot get on and have a quiet ride anymore. Homeless, showtime people, beggars. It's endless. This is something else pushing people to more expensive options, be it the express bus, Uber or what have you. It is public transportation, but still. 

I would have a fare decrease a last resort to get more riders on the express bus, but even then, I wouldn't lower the fare too much (perhaps 50 cents to $1 at most).

 

I feel that the MTA should advertise the services though as much as possible. I seriously don't get it with this agency. If you run the service as is, and people switch to the express bus, you get much more fares than the subway. Using existing resources, if enough riders switch, the farebox recovery goes up, and the money needed to operate certain services decreases. 

 

The recent express bus ridership stats showed an increase in ridership on certain routes. Outside SI, the X28/38, BM5, BxM4, QM3, QM11, QM15, QM16, QM18, and QM25 have increased in annual ridership. With the exception of the BM5 and the QM3, these routes serve areas at or nearby a subway (within 3 blocks) in the outer boroughs at some point along the route that goes to similar destinations the bus goes in Manhattan. Now IDK if that means something or not, but people are being fed up with subway service. This would be the perfect time to advertise express bus service (of course though, it's the subway or nothing with the MTA). 

 

Many of the above routes also serve areas far away from the nearest subway. Imagine dealing with the subway and its gazillion delays, and then dealing with the local bus and its problems.

[MikeC]

I would have a fare decrease a last resort to get more riders on the express bus, but even then, I wouldn't lower the fare too much (perhaps 50 cents to $1 at most).

 

I feel that the MTA should advertise the services though as much as possible. I seriously don't get it with this agency. If you run the service as is, and people switch to the express bus, you get much more fares than the subway. Using existing resources, if enough riders switch, the farebox recovery goes up, and the money needed to operate certain services decreases. 

 

The recent express bus ridership stats showed an increase in ridership on certain routes. Outside SI, the X28/38, BM5, BxM4, QM3, QM11, QM15, QM16, QM18, and QM25 have increased in annual ridership. With the exception of the BM5 and the QM3, these routes serve areas at or nearby a subway (within 3 blocks) in the outer boroughs at some point along the route that goes to similar destinations the bus goes in Manhattan. Now IDK if that means something or not, but people are being fed up with subway service. This would be the perfect time to advertise express bus service (of course though, it's the subway or nothing with the MTA). 

 

Many of the above routes also serve areas far away from the nearest subway. Imagine dealing with the subway and its gazillion delays, and then dealing with the local bus and its problems.

Yea I've noticed more people on express buses as of late

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

A mass transit agency is not supposed to be in the business of providing commuters comfort. So yes, express buses ARE supposed to look like local buses. Those who want a premium service should find some other operator to take it on. The local bus to subway trip in a lot of areas is long enough to where the masses would jump on time competitive alternatives so to have a time competitive alternative in existence (express buses) generate poor usage speaks to something other than commuter ignorance or lack of marketing. 

 

Folks who live in the areas served by express buses know of their existence so don't give me the lack of marketing BS.

 

Commuter rails don't even accurately compare to express buses. Commuter rails primarily serve commuters who live outside of city limits, hold far more people per vehicle than express buses and the vehicles run on rails which in the U.S. translates greater to permanence in the minds of the commuters. If anything, more usage of commuter rails should be encouraged within city limits. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I would have a fare decrease a last resort to get more riders on the express bus, but even then, I wouldn't lower the fare too much (perhaps 50 cents to $1 at most).

 

I feel that the MTA should advertise the services though as much as possible. I seriously don't get it with this agency. If you run the service as is, and people switch to the express bus, you get much more fares than the subway. Using existing resources, if enough riders switch, the farebox recovery goes up, and the money needed to operate certain services decreases. 

 

The recent express bus ridership stats showed an increase in ridership on certain routes. Outside SI, the X28/38, BM5, BxM4, QM3, QM11, QM15, QM16, QM18, and QM25 have increased in annual ridership. With the exception of the BM5 and the QM3, these routes serve areas at or nearby a subway (within 3 blocks) in the outer boroughs at some point along the route that goes to similar destinations the bus goes in Manhattan. Now IDK if that means something or not, but people are being fed up with subway service. This would be the perfect time to advertise express bus service (of course though, it's the subway or nothing with the MTA). 

 

Many of the above routes also serve areas far away from the nearest subway. Imagine dealing with the subway and its gazillion delays, and then dealing with the local bus and its problems.

That's it. Either people are switching to the express bus where possible, or they are taking Metro-North or driving. That last one is definitely true. The real dark horse is the local buses IMO. That's one reason we need to replace as much of the aging fleet as possible. People like shiny new things and as much as the likes running those RTS buses and the like, newer buses could help attract some riders. The reason I say this is because there are cycles with local bus service where it goes up and down in terms of reliability. We need more consistency and shouldn't be waiting until there's a shortage to get certain depots new fleet. The needs to adapt a standard policy which is replacing fleet as needed, not favoring what the depot wants what. It needs to be about serving what the riding public needs because without passengers, these lines don't run. It's that simple.

A mass transit agency is not supposed to be in the business of providing commuters comfort. So yes, express buses ARE supposed to look like local buses. Those who want a premium service should find some other operator to take it on. The local bus to subway trip in a lot of areas is long enough to where the masses would jump on time competitive alternatives so to have a time competitive alternative in existence (express buses) generate poor usage speaks to something other than commuter ignorance or lack of marketing. 

 

Folks who live in the areas served by express buses know of their existence so don't give me the lack of marketing BS.

 

Commuter rails don't even accurately compare to express buses. Commuter rails primarily serve commuters who live outside of city limits, hold far more people per vehicle than express buses and the vehicles run on rails which in the U.S. translates greater to permanence in the minds of the commuters. If anything, more usage of commuter rails should be encouraged within city limits. 

That is incorrect. Mass transit is about a mix of things, and one of them IS comfort, especially for a premium service. You keep trying to treat express buses like local buses. They are not the same. They just aren't. They serve different passengers, and being ignorant and trying to ignore that makes no sense just like Metro-North serves different passengers than the subway.

 

Express buses serve the same purpose as commuter rails, which is to get people to the Central Business District from far flung areas of the city that either don't have a subway or are in two or or three fare zones. Your issue is you are rail centric and biased as a result. This is coming from the same person that thinks there's a problem if a bus runs on headways that are more than five minutes. 

[MikeC]

Yes, but would you prefer to have a bus with 5 people on it and then have the MTA cut it, or a bus with 15+ people which can last for a longer (given that there's no severe budget cuts in store). You can always make a better case for a bus with more than a handful of people. There are plenty of buses, including some peak buses, which are not used to capacity. Express buses should be advertised quite frankly.

 

IMO, it would be interesting if a separate company ran all the express bus routes in the city. Depending on the company, they would go out to advertise their services over the MTA. 

idk how are the x23 and x24? I've never used them. I either use the ferry/local bus or X1 if I'm going to staten island. 

[Deucey]

Getting rid of coaches is pointless. Express bus riders prefer them. When the Orion 5's were being used by CP along with the MCIs you can't imagine how many complaints there were. But, I do agree that for ADA accessibility purposes the coaches aren't as good. The lifts get stuck more often than you'd expect. Got my dad stuck a few times. But, with all NYCT spends on access-a-ride contracts I think thats a service that needs to be improved for ADA riders. Artics also are not the alternative. Think of all the express trips that are only pulling in a few riders on routes like the QM10 and 12. You have to buy all these new buses that are gonna be empty most of the time and replace good buses that have lots of life in them.

Then the better thing to do is buy the 35 ft coaches from Prevost and MCI instead of the 45 ft - less weight = cost savings = fewer cutbacks.

 

What should also be doing is leasing them out for charters, since there are plenty of idle coaches during midday when the bulk of the services run hourly. Extra revenue = better cost recovery = fewer cutbacks.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Then the better thing to do is buy the 35 ft coaches from Prevost and MCI instead of the 45 ft - less weight = cost savings = fewer cutbacks.

 

What should also be doing is leasing them out for charters, since there are plenty of idle coaches during midday when the bulk of the services run hourly. Extra revenue = better cost recovery = fewer cutbacks.

The problem with that though, is that many runs interline. Many runs are during the rush hour, which is fine if it is a rush-hour only run. However, those buses will be at capacity (or almost at that point). Buying 35ft coaches would mean adding service in many cases, which defeats the purpose of the savings.

 

Additionally, many runs do several lines, and are continuous runs through one of the two rush hours. This is especially true of the MTA Bus routes. You could be doing an outbound shoulder trip with a decent load, and then run an inbound trip which garners only a few riders, and then do a PM rush trip which gets packed. The only trip which the 35 footer would be ideal is the inbound trip. Additionally, a BO could be doing a route with low ridership on one trip, DH, and then pull out on the "workhorses" or vice-versa (ex: do an outbound QM10, DH to Manhattan, do an outbound QM5). It isn't too easy to just buy shorter coaches. 

 

Also, charters would not work, because more often than not, charters will last more than 6 hours. Many runs also pull in after 9 AM to their respective layover location or depot and/or pull out before 3 PM. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Then the better thing to do is buy the 35 ft coaches from Prevost and MCI instead of the 45 ft - less weight = cost savings = fewer cutbacks.

 

What should also be doing is leasing them out for charters, since there are plenty of idle coaches during midday when the bulk of the services run hourly. Extra revenue = better cost recovery = fewer cutbacks.

Oh please. The latest buses are quite fuel efficient and getting smaller buses means SRO conditions. Keep the fleet all the same.

[checkmatechamp13]

Reduce the fare, sure. I can see that.

Reduce the fare and get rid of the coaches? That would really leave express routes dead in the water. Even if you were to bring the fare down to a dollar more than the local fare, the allure of an "Express" route would be gone if an Artic pulled up.

 

Hell, even DART in Delaware uses Motor Coaches.

 

Nah, if the alternatives are that bad, people will continue to use the express routes regardless of what model of bus is used. I mean, for me to take the S44-ferry-subway vs. the X17 is easily 30-60 minutes more (and now that there's a continuous HOV lane from Victory Blvd to the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel, it's even more of a no-brainer). 

 

I mean, people still take local buses that parallel the subway. While I don't agree with the idea of replacing the physical express fleet (the MCIs get better mileage on highways and I think the speed governors are set higher on the MCIs), I don't think that lowering the fare and running them as local routes would result in this massive ridership decrease. 

 

Heck, on some routes (including my home express route the X17), people are willing to stand on the bus and still pay a premium fare because the alternatives are so bad.

 

Likely the Bx42 until Harding Avenue, and then the Bx40 route to Fort Schuyler.

1) Most likely. Good look transferring (for those who take that trip). Since buses are almost always behind schedule, I bet that more often than not, that connecting bus will just leave at the designated time

2) I looked at the schedules to see what the runtimes were to see if it was an error or not. The 12:35 PM to Fort Schuyler takes 79 minutes. The previous bus to Fort Schuyler takes 77 minutes. The trip after also takes 79 minutes, but then again, runtimes keep increasing during those hours from end to end. It may be a formatting issue or something, so IDK what the full story is with those trips.

 

The key is that you have to look at the runtime from Westchester Square to the eastern terminal. It takes 24 minutes to get to the Bx42 terminal, but 21-22 minutes to get to the Bx40 terminal, so it's likely just a formatting error (the buses alternate, so it doesn't make much sense to send 3 buses in a row to the Throgs Neck Houses)

 

The thing is because there are no alternatives to the express bus on Staten Island, you get some not so savory characters riding at times. That was another reason I moved. Too many ghetto types as you described rode on weekends and I got sick of it. Mainly relegated to the X10, but the X1 has the loud obnoxious teenagers too. Don't get me wrong, I've had instances where I've had to speak my mind about a few loud mouths on the Riverdale buses too, but it's usually kids or a few chatty young females that don't know any better.

 

With the Staten Island express buses, it will only become worse as more people move there. The more frequent service may sound great, but that also means more rude inconsiderate types riding as well, as it becomes a service for the masses there since there are no other alternatives. That's one reason they need something like a fast ferry or something.

 

So now suddenly, express service on Staten Island is a service for the masses because there's no alternatives, but when I say the same thing, I'm wrong?

 

Also, charters would not work, because more often than not, charters will last more than 6 hours. Many runs also pull in after 9 AM to their respective layover location or depot and/or pull out before 3 PM. 

 

Also the issue is if the trip gets delayed coming back to Manhattan then not only is the trip late, but you also have to pay the MTA driver to wait for the charter driver to bring the bus back to the appropriate location (there's restrictions on how long a bus operator can work without a break, so if you have the MTA driver do his morning trips and the charter trip, he or she might not legally be able to drive the evening trip)

 

It's an interesting idea for the weekends, though.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

So now suddenly, express service on Staten Island is a service for the masses because there's no alternatives, but when I say the same thing, I'm wrong?

 

It's not suddenly. The entire borough damn there has express buses running through it. It isn't a service for the masses but on Staten Island it is used because there is nothing else. And if you're trying to give off the idea that everyone uses it because they can all afford it you're wrong. There's a lot of keeping up with the Joneses out there, in addition to the ghetto types that scrap together change to ride it on occasion. Either way you can have it. That place is going to turn into a cesspool with the overcrowding and over development planned there. Glad I got out when I did. The infrastructure there simply cannot sustain all of those people moving there and even with a restructuring of the lines, it'll still be a mess. There's only so much space for expanded highways and the like. 

 

Staten Island was a lot nicer back in the day. Kind of agree with the original folks that said too many were moving there, many of whom are inconsiderate jerks. 

[B35 via Church]

No ... but if that was the case idk what would happen.

Discontinuation.

 

A mass transit agency is not supposed to be in the business of providing commuters comfort. So yes, express buses ARE supposed to look like local buses. Those who want a premium service should find some other operator to take it on. The local bus to subway trip in a lot of areas is long enough to where the masses would jump on time competitive alternatives so to have a time competitive alternative in existence (express buses) generate poor usage speaks to something other than commuter ignorance or lack of marketing. 

 

Folks who live in the areas served by express buses know of their existence so don't give me the lack of marketing BS.

 

Commuter rails don't even accurately compare to express buses. Commuter rails primarily serve commuters who live outside of city limits, hold far more people per vehicle than express buses and the vehicles run on rails which in the U.S. translates greater to permanence in the minds of the commuters. If anything, more usage of commuter rails should be encouraged within city limits. 

If it isn't about providing comfort, then there's zero point of any mass transit agency providing seating on buses & trains - regardless if the seats are padded & recline, or not... What's bullshit is this notion of the image of an express bus service & that of local bus service having to bear some resemblance to one another... There is literally nothing saying that riders utilize non-local bus services that resemble local buses more & you're not doing too great of a job illustrating that.... You're simply using that nonsense to try to support getting rid of coach buses on the expresses & it's much ado about nothing...

 

There are a number of things that speak to poor usage on the expresses in this city & the complete lack of marketing is one of them.... It's quite sad that real estate agents do more marketing of express buses than the MTA does..... To insinuate that the vast majority of those that live in areas where express buses are present know enough about them, is simply not true.... Simply seeing them (or, knowing of their existence) is not close to having enough of an understanding of them.....

 

As far as commuter rails & commuter buses, they serve the same purpose (which was the point) - transporting suburbanites (being real about it) to "the city"..... The fact that trains have advantages over buses doesn't make their purposes any less comparable....

 

idk how are the x23 and x24? I've never used them. I either use the ferry/local bus or X1 if I'm going to staten island. 

Under Academy's wing, I have no clue as to how well utilized they are anymore.....

 

While I don't agree with the idea of replacing the physical express fleet (the MCIs get better mileage on highways and I think the speed governors are set higher on the MCIs), I don't think that lowering the fare and running them as local routes would result in this massive ridership decrease.

Hate to say it, but there's a ring of truth to it.... Current express bus riders won't want to co-exist with too much of the local crowd....

 

I'd say there'd be less of a decrease of the current express bus ridership if the MCI's/Prevost's were to remain..... The massive decrease would come when artics start pulling up to bus stops as express buses.... The complaints back when SC ran those O5's on the BM's were heavy; and rightfully so if you ask me....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

If it isn't about providing comfort, then there's zero point of any mass transit agency providing seating on buses & trains - regardless if the seats are padded & recline, or not... What's bullshit is this notion of the image of an express bus service & that of local bus service having to bear some resemblance to one another... There is literally nothing saying that riders utilize non-local bus services that resemble local buses more & you're not doing too great of a job illustrating that.... You're simply using that nonsense to try to support getting rid of coach buses on the expresses & it's much ado about nothing...

 

There are a number of things that speak to poor usage on the expresses in this city & the complete lack of marketing is one of them.... It's quite sad that real estate agents do more marketing of express buses than the MTA does..... To insinuate that the vast majority of those that live in areas where express buses are present know enough about them, is simply not true.... Simply seeing them (or, knowing of their existence) is not close to having enough of an understanding of them.....

 

As far as commuter rails & commuter buses, they serve the same purpose (which was the point) - transporting suburbanites (being real about it) to "the city"..... The fact that trains have advantages over buses doesn't make their purposes any less comparable....

 

 

Under Academy's wing, I have no clue as to how well utilized they are anymore.....

 

 

Hate to say it, but there's a ring of truth to it.... Current express bus riders won't want to co-exist with too much of the local crowd....

 

I'd say there'd be less of a decrease of the current express bus ridership if the MCI's/Prevost's were to remain..... The massive decrease would come when artics start pulling up to bus stops as express buses.... The complaints back when SC ran those O5's on the BM's were heavy; and rightfully so if you ask me....

I have to agree with you. In my neighborhood, I have met several people that don't know where the express buses run. I know a lady who works very close to the BxM18. For years she was walking over to the BxM2 at night to get home and taking the BxM1 in. Then one day, she told me she was walking along Madison Avenue during her lunch break and saw a BxM18 bus stop, and couldn't believe that the bus stopped there. She now uses the BxM18 at night for that reason only. I met another lady that used the BxM2. Told her about the BxM18... She had no idea it ran and stopped in Midtown.

 

I also know of a couple that takes Metro-North. They have no idea where any of the express buses go. I told them as well and they were shocked to hear where the buses go and to have such options. Since I've been living here, the marketed Metro-North at numerous bus stops both in Spuyten Duyvil and Central Riverdale. Meanwhile, I've suggested that they market the BxM18 as not just "the Downtown" bus since many people work in Midtown and the bus makes several pick-ups and drop-offs in Midtown, and nothing has changed, likely because they don't want to provide more BxM18 service.

 

Additionally, regarding the use of those Orion buses, I don't know about you, but I remember the notices on the BM express buses letting passengers know that they were putting MCI's on the entire fleet to make for a more comfortable ride. Those buses were horrible. The seats were like bricks, and the leg room in the two seaters... Forget it. There were times when I would pass up those buses for an MCI. I am certainly glad those buses are gone, as they were not worth the fare.

[Around the Horn]

I have to agree with you. In my neighborhood, I have met several people that don't know where the express buses run. I know a lady who works very close to the BxM18. For years she was walking over to the BxM2 at night to get home and taking the BxM1 in. Then one day, she told me she was walking along Madison Avenue during her lunch break and saw a BxM18 bus stop, and couldn't believe that the bus stopped there. She now uses the BxM18 at night for that reason only. I met another lady that used the BxM2. Told her about the BxM18... She had no idea it ran and stopped in Midtown.

 

I also know of a couple that takes Metro-North. They have no idea where any of the express buses go. I told them as well and they were shocked to hear where the buses go and to have such options. Since I've been living here, the marketed Metro-North at numerous bus stops both in Spuyten Duyvil and Central Riverdale. Meanwhile, I've suggested that they market the BxM18 as not just "the Downtown" bus since many people work in Midtown and the bus makes several pick-ups and drop-offs in Midtown, and nothing has changed, likely because they don't want to provide more BxM18 service.

 

This, this right here... I can guarantee that most people in Bay Ridge have no idea the X27 or X28 exist.

 

For whatever reason, they bypass the areas with the most potential ridership... If you were to put another route on 3rd, 4th or 5th Avenue, and puts stops from 65th to 101st,  I can guarantee it will get ridership if marketed properly...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

This, this right here... I can guarantee that most people in Bay Ridge have no idea the X27 or X28 exist.

 

For whatever reason, they bypass the areas with the most potential ridership... If you were to put another route on 3rd, 4th or 5th Avenue, and puts stops from 65th to 101st,  I can guarantee it will get ridership if marketed properly...

Express buses generally don't run where subways go. The X27 runs along Shore Road for a few reasons. As I'm sure you know, it's a bitch to get from Shore Road to the subway station and it was something I considered when considering moving deep along Shore Road (in the 90s). At that time the X27 was either axed or going to be axed on weekends, so that squashed me moving back to Brooklyn from Staten Island at the time. The B16 runs like crap. I've waited on weekends for the X27 after a stroll in the 70s to enjoy the beautiful views and houses and could only see one B16 pass by in that time. 

 

Shore Road is part of the affluent part of Bay Ridge, and as such with the high amount of co-ops and condos, it's the perfect place to run the X27.  Most properties sit back from the curb so having express buses passing through isn't a big issue from a noise factor, with the water on one side and the rather wide street.  Same deal with the express buses here in Riverdale running along Henry Hudson Parkway. Additionally, if you ran the X27 along Ridge Blvd or another street, you would have to clear out parking, and I'm sure that would piss off the homeowners. Running it parallel to the really makes no sense. It isn't there to compete with the . A line like the BxM11 has no real other place to run BUT below the subway along White Plains Road, but generally speaking, the idea is to run the express bus AWAY from the subway to get rid of the whole bus to subway connection for those using the express bus.

 

The X28 serves the same purpose.  Running it along the very tony part of Dyker Heights there in the historical district (i.e. Cropsey and 15th Avenue) is a no brainier. Those are the people that will pony up $6.50 for the express bus, and those are the exact people that signed my petition to restore the X28 on weekends; them and the elderly folks who can't climb the stairs to reach the subway quite a ways away in some cases. The train from most of Cropsey Avenue is a schlepp. Meanwhile the X27 and X28 run on both sides of the , so for those that aren't west enough for the X27, they can certainly walk to the X28. That last stop before it gets on the Gowanus tends to be pretty popular for that reason.

 

Lots of people living in a place doesn't automatically mean they'll use it. That's the same dilemma facing the BxM4. After 165th and Grand Concourse, the line sees very little usage until it reaches the area north of Fordham Road. The people are simply too poor to afford the premium fare.

[S78 via Hylan]

⬆️ Speaking of the BxM4, I've used it when the and are jacked up.

[QM1to6Ave]

To bolster a few points on here:

 

--The whole argument about putting the local buses on EXP lines is idiotic, and has been discussed so many times before. The MCI's and Prevosts cost the same as local buses, they are made for the highway runs, and get better gas mileage than locals. There is zero reason to put locals on there, other than reducing the latent jealousy of people that don't like the difference in comfort level. Having WiFi and USB ports makes the $6.50 price much better to me, as I use both every time I ride them...but even the local buses are getting them too! My complaint is that it is annoying having the high-floor on the MCI and Prevosts, as the storage areas are pointless. But, other than that low-floor Millenium bus that never materialized, there just isn't another good option that gives the same level of comfort. 

 

--The EXP runs absolutely need to be better advertised, especially for off-peak runs when they are more reliable than subway/local bus combos from the outer boroughs. 

 

--I can't speak to reorganizing the lines, but the QMs that I use are fine in terms of the places they go. It is the schedule that can use some re-vamping.

 

--In my experiencee, the QM1/5/6 have been more reliable as of late, but there is still much to be desired, especially on the QM1 where many runs suspiciously never materialize. The QM31/35/36 reliability has been pretty bad, with runs showing up 40 minutes late heading to Manhattan.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

^ Speaking of the BxM4, I've used it when the and are jacked up.

The BxM4 is one of those lines that goes back a while, when the Grand Concourse was truly "grand". There are a few co-ops between 158th and 165th that garner some riders that don't want to use the subway, but the issue is after that, you have very few co-ops, and mainly large rental apartments. You could market the BxM4 all you want along that stretch and it wouldn't matter. Part of the marketing has to take economic factors into play. If the neighborhood has high earners, it is more likely you will get those people to pay the higher fares and not just on occasion but CONSISTENTLY. Without a consistent ridership base, it makes it difficult to grow a base.