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LIRR Third Track Project

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39 minutes ago, RR503 said:

It should be done in the next few weeks, though the investment is moot until 3rd track allows reverse-peak trains to come from NY. 

FWIW, after the communities killed it in 2009ish, the LIRR's MO with 3rd track was to sneakily build sections of third track without anyone being the wiser. That's why all the new overpasses  in the area  have three tracks, for example. 

Honestly, it's the traditional way of doing things. Buy properties whenever they come on the market (or negotiate easements) and eventually you have enough property to do the whole thing at once.

It's how the original Penn Station was built, for example.

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6 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Honestly, it's the traditional way of doing things. Buy properties whenever they come on the market (or negotiate easements) and eventually you have enough property to do the whole thing at once.

It's how the original Penn Station was built, for example.

True, though some would say that's a circumvention of the public's right to comment extensively on such issues. Bad optics, either way.

On a historical note, this method of construction wasn't all fun and games for PS. IIRC there were a few property owners who, upon understanding the centrality of their land to the PRR's plans, raised their prices astronomically, making purchase all the more difficult. Point being, sometimes it's better just to go the governmentally sanctioned route and gain eminent domain power... 

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On 9/9/2018 at 11:26 PM, P3F said:

Groundbreaking? Wow, I haven't been up to date. I thought this has already been under construction for around a year now.

They were building a second track from Farmingdale to Ronkonoma

Edited by mfs NJT459

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35 minutes ago, mfs NJT459 said:

They were building a second track from Farmingdale to Ronkonoma

No, P3F and I are talking about the Third Track. The MTA awarded the contract for the Third Track late last year and the contractor has been doing some preparatory work here and there in 2018 so far. But last week was the "official" groundbreaking for the project/Cuomo pre-election photo-op.

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I took a look at the track map proposals for this project. Can anyone tell me how these flat junctions make any sense? It looks worse than the flat junction at Myrtle Avenue and 145 Street.

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3 hours ago, CenSin said:

I took a look at the track map proposals for this project. Can anyone tell me how these flat junctions make any sense? It looks worse than the flat junction at Myrtle Avenue and 145 Street.

Link?

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4 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Link?

Page 29

@CenSin is completely right. Oyster Bay and Hempstead Branch ops are both going to be severely restricted by what I can only characterize as unmitigated idiocy in the design process.

In this “modernization” plan, OB trains will only have access to the Manhattan-bound local track at Mineola, with outbound trains having to cross over to said track against the flow of traffic at an interlocking that is — get this — west of Herricks Road. I honestly can’t think of a better way to slaughter capacity.  

Similarly, because 3rd track now ends at Floral Park, the Hempstead Branch is getting screwed. Under the plan, outbound Main Line trains are seemingly using the current inbound Hempstead track all the way from QUEENS interlocking to Floral Park. Why they can’t at the very least install high speed universal crossovers between Floral Park and Bellerose is beyond me, much less assemble Floral Park so that trains use the ‘correct’ Hempstead track from the start.  

If I may express my Thanksgiving sentiments early, I’m thankful that NYCT isn’t run by the LIRR — imagine how much worse the subway would be if these loons were in charge...

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1 hour ago, RR503 said:

Page 29

@CenSin is completely right. Oyster Bay and Hempstead Branch ops are both going to be severely restricted by what I can only characterize as unmitigated idiocy in the design process.

In this “modernization” plan, OB trains will only have access to the Manhattan-bound local track at Mineola, with outbound trains having to cross over to said track against the flow of traffic at an interlocking that is — get this — west of Herricks Road. I honestly can’t think of a better way to slaughter capacity.  

Similarly, because 3rd track now ends at Floral Park, the Hempstead Branch is getting screwed. Under the plan, outbound Main Line trains are seemingly using the current inbound Hempstead track all the way from QUEENS interlocking to Floral Park. Why they can’t at the very least install high speed universal crossovers between Floral Park and Bellerose is beyond me, much less assemble Floral Park so that trains use the ‘correct’ Hempstead track from the start.  

If I may express my Thanksgiving sentiments early, I’m thankful that NYCT isn’t run by the LIRR — imagine how much worse the subway would be if these loons were in charge...

The saving grace is that there will be another track to route around incidents and to provide reverse-peak service. But otherwise, this design fails the capacity goal mentioned in the document.

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10 hours ago, RR503 said:

Page 29

@CenSin is completely right. Oyster Bay and Hempstead Branch ops are both going to be severely restricted by what I can only characterize as unmitigated idiocy in the design process.

In this “modernization” plan, OB trains will only have access to the Manhattan-bound local track at Mineola, with outbound trains having to cross over to said track against the flow of traffic at an interlocking that is — get this — west of Herricks Road. I honestly can’t think of a better way to slaughter capacity.  

Similarly, because 3rd track now ends at Floral Park, the Hempstead Branch is getting screwed. Under the plan, outbound Main Line trains are seemingly using the current inbound Hempstead track all the way from QUEENS interlocking to Floral Park. Why they can’t at the very least install high speed universal crossovers between Floral Park and Bellerose is beyond me, much less assemble Floral Park so that trains use the ‘correct’ Hempstead track from the start.  

If I may express my Thanksgiving sentiments early, I’m thankful that NYCT isn’t run by the LIRR — imagine how much worse the subway would be if these loons were in charge...

It has been clear for some time that they want to turn the Oyster Bay Branch into a shuttle.

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9 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

It has been clear for some time that they want to turn the Oyster Bay Branch into a shuttle.

Hell, if it doesn’t go between Port Washington, Huntington, Ronkonkoma or Babylon and Manhattan, the LIRR will dump it like a hot potato. See: the platform F project, the lack of service in diesel territory, and their “what’s that” treatment service-wise of FR/HP/WH/OB/LB

Edited by RR503
I seem to have forgotten what the word "and" means...

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On 9/10/2018 at 1:10 PM, RR503 said:

It should be done in the next few weeks, though the investment is moot until 3rd track allows reverse-peak trains to come from NY. 

FWIW, after the communities killed it in 2009ish, the LIRR's MO with 3rd track was to sneakily build sections of third track without anyone being the wiser. That's why all the new overpasses  in the area  have three tracks, for example. 

Fiendishly clever.

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On 9/17/2018 at 4:22 PM, Italianstallion said:

Fiendishly clever.

Also not completely unprecedented.

The MTA owned all the land already needed for the Ronkonkoma Double Track project. They also own pretty much enough land to double track Port Jeff.

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I find it a bit funny how in the subway, a third track doesn't add capacity, but on the LIRR it will have benefits.

Anyway, I haven't been able to find a track map that shows the platform layouts. Are all of the stations on the segment going to be local stations? (With the exception of Hicksville). Or are there going to be other express stations?

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1 hour ago, P3F said:

I find it a bit funny how in the subway, a third track doesn't add capacity, but on the LIRR it will have benefits.

Anyway, I haven't been able to find a track map that shows the platform layouts. Are all of the stations on the segment going to be local stations? (With the exception of Hicksville). Or are there going to be other express stations?

All local.

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1 hour ago, P3F said:

I find it a bit funny how in the subway, a third track doesn't add capacity, but on the LIRR it will have benefits.

Indeed. The LIRR cooks its turkey like it’s a 4 track railroad — just without the two tracks in the off peak direction. The third track thus allows for trains to go against the Manhattan flow. 

2 hours ago, P3F said:

Anyway, I haven't been able to find a track map that shows the platform layouts. Are all of the stations on the segment going to be local stations? (With the exception of Hicksville). Or are there going to be other express stations?

In another demonstration of the railroad’s eminent wisdom, they have elected to make all stations local — including Mineola. Generally, the track layout seems to have been designed by a caveman. At least in the maps in the FEIS, OB trains only have access to the north track at Mineola and ML trains headed to the south track have to run against the current of traffic from QUEENS to Floral Park. 

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2 hours ago, RR503 said:

Indeed. The LIRR cooks its turkey like it’s a 4 track railroad — just without the two tracks in the off peak direction. The third track thus allows for trains to go against the Manhattan flow. 

In another demonstration of the railroad’s eminent wisdom, they have elected to make all stations local — including Mineola. Generally, the track layout seems to have been designed by a caveman. At least in the maps in the FEIS, OB trains only have access to the north track at Mineola and ML trains headed to the south track have to run against the current of traffic from QUEENS to Floral Park. 

From the 2015-2034 Capital Needs Assessment

Quote

Enhancing Service in Diesel Territory: In order to maximize the utility of new LIRR rail service to GCT associated with East Side Access, train slots on the Main Line should be targeted to serve the busiest lines and stations. In diesel territory, “scoot” services, utilizing new diesel-powered train equipment, can operate between interchange/transfer points with the electrified lines and local stations on the more lightly-used branch lines. This would enable enhanced service availability and would better address service demand within diesel territory. The Oyster Bay Branch and service between Ronkonkoma and Greenport are two areas where this type of service could be beneficial.

 

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5 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

From the 2015-2034 Capital Needs Assessment

Oh, I completely agree. But if they're making a shuttle, they have to make a shuttle -- give it a separate platform and the like. This bastardization of the concept of through running and shuttles doesn't facilitate either. 

Long term, I'd make the OB and WH branches into a light rail via downtown Hempstead. 

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Oyster Bay needed to be made a shuttle / light rail service yesterday and given the way things are going, is probably going to be severed when ESA opens. All the extra capacity can be sent to Hicksville / Huntington / PJ where it's most needed.

10 hours ago, RR503 said:

Indeed. The LIRR cooks its turkey like it’s a 4 track railroad — just without the two tracks in the off peak direction. The third track thus allows for trains to go against the Manhattan flow. 

In another demonstration of the railroad’s eminent wisdom, they have elected to make all stations local — including Mineola. Generally, the track layout seems to have been designed by a caveman. At least in the maps in the FEIS, OB trains only have access to the north track at Mineola and ML trains headed to the south track have to run against the current of traffic from QUEENS to Floral Park. 

The crossovers (or lack thereof) in the diagram is highly questionable. The two obvious improvements:

  1. Build a track connections between the middle (express) Main Lain track and both existing ML tracks east of FP. Keep the ML trains off the Hempstead Branch, unless the existing WB Hempstead branch track is connected to the northernmost track for whatever reason. 
  2. Give Mineola two island platforms - no train should be skipping a top 10 ridership station.
  • Upvote 3

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On 10/5/2018 at 10:01 PM, Caelestor said:

Oyster Bay needed to be made a shuttle / light rail service yesterday and given the way things are going, is probably going to be severed when ESA opens. All the extra capacity can be sent to Hicksville / Huntington / PJ where it's most needed.

This I find really unlikely. During the rush, there are a grand total of six trains over three hours, and of those three of the AM Peak and five of the PM Peak begin and terminate in Jamaica. And provisioning those for some other branch would require an increase in service hours; when was the last time that happened during the peak hour for the LIRR?

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