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Via Garibaldi 8

Report: NYers Are Missing Appointments, Losing Jobs Due To Recent Subway Delays

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Oh, no i'm not saying that any other city in the Northeast will surpass New York...

 

Just that if people choose to leave, the other Northeast cities are already playing the long game in becoming attractive places for ex-pats to move to.

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New York is gonna be king, at least on the East Coast, and anyone who says otherwise is huffin some serious shit.

This....

 

....but I don't think there's anyone (outside of homers of other big cities) that seriously believes otherwise.

There has always been this envy of this city, outside of it - in some cities more than others....

 

Oh, no i'm not saying that any other city in the Northeast will surpass New York...

 

Just that if people choose to leave, the other Northeast cities are already playing the long game in becoming attractive places for ex-pats to move to.

Perhaps, but bear in mind that the people that tend to leave NYC, don't move to other big cities like that.... It's usually the other way around actually (people moving from other big cities, to NYC)..... Personally, I'm sick of hearing about (anywhere in) Florida or North Carolina as being this great escape.....

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This....

 

....but I don't think there's anyone (outside of homers of other big cities) that seriously believes otherwise.

There has always been this envy of this city, outside of it - in some cities more than others....

 

As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

We've been through this rodeo before. First places wanted to be the next New York. Then places wanted to be the next LA, with all those film and TV show tax credits and whatnot. Now people want to be the next Silicon Valley. And so on and so forth.

 

Oh, no i'm not saying that any other city in the Northeast will surpass New York...

 

Just that if people choose to leave, the other Northeast cities are already playing the long game in becoming attractive places for ex-pats to move to.

 

Eh, not really. Boston is too university focused and too sleepy. Philly is like great value NY (like it's nice and charming and all that but it gets pretty boring.) Baltimore is like a step above Detroit level, and if we're a dump in terms of our politics then DC is a dumpster fire.

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Posting multiple articles of a similar subject matter in the same thread does not tend to spur discussion in the same manner that starting new threads does.... I'll go one further than that - Seeing a forum that has few posts, but have hundreds of pages of activity doesn't spur forum registration/new membership..... So I see zero problem here.... There isn't any spamming going on like you're insinuating..... If there's anything that threatened the longevity of this thread, it was the nature of your opening reply to it.....

 

Let's not bring up sticking to forum guidelines, because your mini-modding is by no means exemplary of that....

 

For whatever the reason, there's a lack of discussion threads being started on this forum as a whole....

Alienation occurs when there is a LACK of new threads being posted.....

 

Look around this forum.... Connect the dots...

 

It's the same collective of people posting in the same threads.... We could use new topics (and new blood) around here!

I see the error of my ways.

 

I apologise for not being constructive in the discussion, and to VG8 in my antagonizing replies.

 

One factor that can also influence the greater rate of delays experienced by lower income households numbers aside from the likelihood of not being capable of utilizing other modes of transportation, is that people from lower income households are more likely to travel farther to work, giving a greater risk of being exposed to a delay and possibly multiple delays.

 

Like MassTransitKnowHow pointed out, this infrastructure effort has to be a system-wide effort, and not only focused on the 'pretty' neighborhoods.

 

 

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

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The continued failure of the subway system puts the city at risk of collapse and a relapse of those bad days in the 70s.

 

The MTA has long ignored the fringes of the city that are less fortunate and have allowed blight to fester. Mott Haven, Far Rockaway, East NY, Brownsville, West Farms, Harlem and other blighted communities deserve the same attention being afforded to Yotkville, Chelsea, SoHo, Park Slope and other rapidly gentrifying communities.

 

The attempts by Realtors to rebrand Harlem makes me sick.

 

Public transportation is supposed to connect people to opportunities thar lift them out of poverty and a means to support themselves and family.

 

The failures of the most important backbone of transit in the tristate area can have consequences that drag the whole nation back into recession.

 

New York City is the nation's largest. If something awful happened here economically or socially, other cities will fall like dominos.

 

your right about politicians trying to plunder the MTA and trying to bring back the 70's

agreed and tell Deblasio that his stupid street car and making the Rockaway Beach Branch Right of way won't help cause all it is is a gift for his developer overlords

 

Deblasio is selling this city out to his aformentioned overlords and snuffing out the natives to roll out the red carpet for the pioneers(i said this before)

Edited by BreeddekalbL
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Oh, no i'm not saying that any other city in the Northeast will surpass New York...

 

Just that if people choose to leave, the other Northeast cities are already playing the long game in becoming attractive places for ex-pats to move to.

Well, Philly in some circles is already considered the unofficial 6th borough of NYC (given those who live in Philly but work in NYC). 

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Too much crying in general in today's society. Waah the train made me late. Always looking to blame somebody else. Yet the majority of TA employees have to be to work on time, and somehow they are.

 

Adjust reality. This is the new normal until we alleviate congestion through better Real Estate policies or system expansion. Leave earlier and stop crying on Twitter. No one cares. You're an adult, get it done.

 

"No Excuses, play like a Champion."

 

Signed,

The Conservative That Wants to Tax the Rich and the Dead.

Edited by SubwayGuy
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Too much crying in general in today's society. Waah the train made me late. Always looking to blame somebody else. Yet the majority of TA employees have to be to work on time, and somehow they are.

 

Adjust reality. This is the new normal until we alleviate congestion through better Real Estate policies or system expansion. Leave earlier and stop crying on Twitter. No one cares. You're an adult, get it done.

 

"No Excuses, play like a Champion."

 

Signed,

The Conservative That Wants to Tax the Rich and the Dead.

I believe that sounds a lot simpler than you're making it sound. For starters, a lot of (MTA) workers are coming in during non-rush hours when there tends to be fewer issues. I'm also willing to bet that a lot of them drive in, ditching the system entirely. I can't speak for other people, but I know I definitely have given myself an extra 30 minutes quite a few times for meetings right in Manhattan and had to abandon the trip because it was such a mess and take a cab, and I don't have to use the subway daily (thank God). The issue isn't giving extra time. The problem is the amount of delays and their length. Surely that can be improved. At some point that advice becomes pointless when you look at the amount of time it takes to go such short distances (It should not take an hour and 30 minutes to go from Midtown to the Lower East Side) and you ditch the subway entirely. It IS on the (MTA) to address that, and telling riders just leave earlier doesn't solve the problem when people are just saying I will use a taxi or something else. It's causing problems elsewhere. That's why you see the ferries so packed because the subways have become so abysmal. If the "norm" of subway travel is an hour or more to commute to short distances in Manhattan, we have a serious problem, but that's what I've noticed for rather short trips. You wait until you can get on a train, then crawl to your destination. You don't deal with such nonsense late at night. It's just a matter of waiting for the train.

 

It also seems as if some lines experience severe delays far more often. That is something that several people that do take the subway daily experience and have complained about. That too needs to be addressed. So far this $20 million dollar plan that was rolled out to lessen delays is not working very well.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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Too much crying in general in today's society. Waah the train made me late. Always looking to blame somebody else. Yet the majority of TA employees have to be to work on time, and somehow they are.

 

Adjust reality. This is the new normal until we alleviate congestion through better Real Estate policies or system expansion. Leave earlier and stop crying on Twitter. No one cares. You're an adult, get it done.

 

"No Excuses, play like a Champion."

 

Signed,

The Conservative That Wants to Tax the Rich and the Dead.

And , pray, how long does undoing development and expanding the system take? And how much does it cost?

 

We've had this argument before. I'm all for more subway lines, but you have got to at least put our existing lines back into a SGR before you go build shiny new things.

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And , pray, how long does undoing development and expanding the system take? And how much does it cost?

 

We've had this argument before. I'm all for more subway lines, but you have got to at least put our existing lines back into a SGR before you go build shiny new things.

This is literally half the reason we fell so far behind in the first place. EVERYTHING costs money.

 

To save money, they stopped maintaining the system. They got 500 Million in bonds in 1951 for SAS and used it instead to maintain the system and other things within NYC. People don't forget and the next few bond issues did not go through.

 

Result? More deferred maintenance.

 

And where are we now? The same situation. We DO need to maintain the system. But we DO need to expand. This is literally the final sign that has always caused system expansion in the past. When employers and the people begin to complain that the conditions in the system are causing tardiness, more was built, and the problem was rectified for a few decades.

 

Horsecars-->Street Railways-->Elevated Lines-->IRT Subway--->Dual Subway and IND. That was the progression and we have hit that point yet again. You can fix the system all you want but lack of maintenance is only part of the issue. Excessive crowding will still be a major cause and the few extra trains per service that CBTC will provide ain't the solution. Just a stop-gap.

 

But again, EVERYTHING costs money. So until we fix THAT problem, there is no solution in sight.

Edited by LTA1992
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I agree that expansion is necessary -- if you'd actually read my post you'd see that -- but this unquestioned love of 'moar subway' is also a large part of the problem. Where are those dollars that should have been going to maintenance, you ask? Well, they've been spent on buying blue-and-yellow buses with WiFi and charging ports for Prince Andrew's vanity trip. They've been flushed into the toilet that is MTACC. They've been spent fabricating ribbon cuttings for local politicos with programs like the ESI. THAT's where they are. It isn't that we don't have money to spend -- the MTA gets tens of billions of dollars every year (and this amount is much more insulated from public sentiment than it used to be so your bond issue example doesn't apply anymore) -- it's a problem of allocation. Instead of spending on maintenance and SGR, the MTA has been pouring cash into projects that are in many cases designed to be novel. That would be okay if the agency's cost structure was manageable, but it's an issue when you're an institution that has to spend 6 BILLION dollars to finish a partially completed subway line. These 6 billion dollars, alternatively, could have put CBTC on all the Manhattan trunks, or replaced the majority of the system's switches, or rewired the B division, or, well, you name it. Expansion is great, but if you're already throwing up last century's food, it isn't exactly the time to add more. I can't stress enough how much I understand that more capacity is needed, but before we add, we must make sure that our existing plant is up to snuff, and that it is running at it's greatest potential.

 

So yeah. You might be right. I could be half the problem. But you make the whole.

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 Where are those dollars that should have been going to maintenance, you ask? Well, they've been spent on buying blue-and-yellow buses with WiFi and charging ports for Prince Andrew's vanity trip. 

 

Someone clearly has no idea how bus procurements work... 

 

Those buses would have been ordered anyway, and needed to be ordered because our bus fleet is old and nearly 2,000 buses need replacements in the next 3 years. 

 

Also, bus funding is completely different from subway funding. You couldn't redirect subway maintenances funds to new buses even if you tried.

 They've been spent fabricating ribbon cuttings for local politicos with programs like the ESI. THAT's where they are. It isn't that we don't have money to spend -- the MTA gets tens of billions of dollars every year (and this amount is much more insulated from public sentiment than it used to be so your bond issue example doesn't apply anymore) -- it's a problem of allocation. 

These 31 stations were planned to be renovated long before the ESI was even an idea in anyone's mind.

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I agree that expansion is necessary -- if you'd actually read my post you'd see that -- but this unquestioned love of 'moar subway' is also a large part of the problem. Where are those dollars that should have been going to maintenance, you ask? Well, they've been spent on buying blue-and-yellow buses with WiFi and charging ports for Prince Andrew's vanity trip. They've been flushed into the toilet that is MTACC. They've been spent fabricating ribbon cuttings for local politicos with programs like the ESI. THAT's where they are. It isn't that we don't have money to spend -- the MTA gets tens of billions of dollars every year (and this amount is much more insulated from public sentiment than it used to be so your bond issue example doesn't apply anymore) -- it's a problem of allocation. Instead of spending on maintenance and SGR, the MTA has been pouring cash into projects that are in many cases designed to be novel. That would be okay if the agency's cost structure was manageable, but it's an issue when you're an institution that has to spend 6 BILLION dollars to finish a partially completed subway line. These 6 billion dollars, alternatively, could have put CBTC on all the Manhattan trunks, or replaced the majority of the system's switches, or rewired the B division, or, well, you name it. Expansion is great, but if you're already throwing up last century's food, it isn't exactly the time to add more. I can't stress enough how much I understand that more capacity is needed, but before we add, we must make sure that our existing plant is up to snuff, and that it is running at it's greatest potential.

 

So yeah. You might be right. I could be half the problem. But you make the whole.

I read your post. 

 

You compare tens of billions in 2017 Dollars to 500 Million in 1951 Dollars, calling that amount nothing. Adjust for inflation and that 500 Million in 1951 becomes about $4.7 Billion in 2016 Dollars. There is absolutely NO WAY 6 Billion could have put CBTC on all the main Manhattan trunk lines and performed the needed fixes to the tracks, tunnels, and stations as required.

 

You complain about money, and obviously have no clue how money works.

 

Secondly, it ain't a love of "moar subway" as you put it with your terrible attempt at sarcasm. It IS a need. It's BEEN a need. And in the coming decades, it will be even MORE of a need. If we do not invest in tomorrow, then it will be twice as hard for the generations that follow to achieve what we put aside. What we need to do is figure out what needs to be done so we can achieve BOTH.

 

I never made expansion the whole problem. Because if anyone didn't read here, it was you.

 

What I said is that even if we get the system in a state of good repair, we will still see many of the same issues because there are more people using the system that what was designed. And the population of this city ain't getting any smaller. More people will be on the buses. More people will be on the trains.

 

This city is projected to hit a population of 9 Million in just 23 more years and you really think simply installing CBTC and getting the system into a better state is going to be the solution?

 

This issue is so multifaceted that I can go on all day. I can go through a plethora of solutions. None of which are easy becasue for each one, there will be someone who says no. No matter how good or how bad.

 

Why?

 

They all cost MONEY. 

Edited by LTA1992
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Someone clearly has no idea how bus procurements work... 

 

Those buses would have been ordered anyway, and needed to be ordered because our bus fleet is old and nearly 2,000 buses need replacements in the next 3 years. 

 

Also, bus funding is completely different from subway funding. You couldn't redirect subway maintenances funds to new buses even if you tried.

These 31 stations were planned to be renovated long before the ESI was even an idea in anyone's mind.

I'm doing this in 2 pieces.

 

I am the first one to admit I don't know jack s#!+ about buses. However, I wasn't trying to say those purchases were unnecessary -- I was objecting to the little frills the MTA had been spending on instead of useful things. Also, monies can be moved -- that's what a capital program amendment does.

 

ESI I'm pointing out the same thing. We could have done this within our current organizational structure that is set up to deal with these things, but instead we complicated the whole process by making it into a separate thing. Also: charging ports in stations?

 

Part 2 to follow...

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I read your post. 

 

You compare tens of billions in 2017 Dollars to 500 Million in 1951 Dollars, calling that amount nothing. Adjust for inflation and that 500 Million in 1951 becomes about $4.7 Billion in 2016 Dollars. There is absolutely NO WAY 6 Billion could have put CBTC on all the main Manhattan trunk lines and performed the needed fixes to the tracks, tunnels, and stations as required.

 

I fail to see your point with this inflation calculation... Yes 500 mil = 4.7 bil today, but I call this sum nothing where exactly...? I'm in wholeharted agreement with you that spending now is better than spending later, but we differ on what to spend on. 6 billion can do all the Manhattan trunks. Queens Boulevard CBTC captures what, about 15 route miles of quadruple track? (I'm combining Archer Ave, 53rd st, 63rd st to make more 4 track, but all these calcs are v. back of the envelope so plz correct if you can do better). The project will cost 900 million. That's 60 million/mile. 8th ave High-59 (again collapsing sections of 2 to 4) is approx. 6 miles, so 360 mil (I'll throw in another 60 cuz W4)=420 mil. 6th ave 47-50-B'way Lafayette = 3 miles +60 mil for W 4 = 240 mil. Broadway from 57th to Canal = 3.5 miles = 210 mil. Lex from 125 to BBCH = 7.5 mi = 450 mil. 7th from 96th to Chambers = 6 mi = 360 mil. All this totalled = 1.6 billion. And yes, some of these numbers may be low, and some of the sections I considered may be too short, but point still stands. We are at 1/4 of our 6 billion.

 

I wholly agree that 6 billion dollars will not fix all those things I listed, but speaking of reading comp, those had ors between them, not ands. 

 

You complain about money, and obviously have no clue how money works.

 

Secondly, it ain't a love of "moar subway" as you put it with your terrible attempt at sarcasm. It IS a need. It's BEEN a need. And in the coming decades, it will be even MORE of a need. If we do not invest in tomorrow, then it will be twice as hard for the generations that follow to achieve what we put aside. What we need to do is figure out what needs to be done so we can achieve BOTH.

 

I SO AGREE. But here's the issue, and where I find my disagreement with what you seem to be saying. Money is a limited resource. Right now, the MTA is getting about as much as it ever can get in terms of funding -- I really don't think there is room for more. My basic point is that in light of our limited resources and dire situation, we should be looking at maintenance before we look at expansion. 

 

I never made expansion the whole problem. Because if anyone didn't read here, it was you.

 

Yeah I overreacted. Mea culpa. 

 

What I said is that even if we get the system in a state of good repair, we will still see many of the same issues because there are more people using the system that what was designed. And the population of this city ain't getting any smaller. More people will be on the buses. More people will be on the trains.

 

This city is projected to hit a population of 9 Million in just 23 more years and you really think simply installing CBTC and getting the system into a better state is going to be the solution?

 

NO! But I think that leaving maintenance behind in favor of more SASs is a recipe for disaster. That's all I'm trying to say. 

 

This issue is so multifaceted that I can go on all day. I can go through a plethora of solutions. None of which are easy becasue for each one, there will be someone who says no. No matter how good or how bad.

 

Why?

 

They all cost MONEY. 

 

Good ending, even I liked it. 

Edited by RR503

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Not only money, these fixes require an investment of time. Not even exciting time; mundane, boring, behind the scenes time that the public never realizes is the reason the weekend never looks normal in the subway. The politicians and MTA higher ups of tomorrow need to be held accountable for the financial and political promises that get made today. It needs to be a mutual understanding between public and utility. If we want the system to be fully accessible, reliable infrastructure, and un-congested trains, that's time, money, and inconveniences. We put up with that on the roads, do we not?

 

If you're sick, stay off the subway as best you can, please so you don't add to the numbers.

 

It all comes back to if we have these problems, what are our solutions?

 

...Multi-faceted problems and solutions; political pet projects that keep real work from happening...all good points!

 

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

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The MTA needs money. But the MTA and the rest of the region also have a massive spending problem. How much money are we shoveling into East Side Access? How much money did we throw at the overruns for SF (twice), the Fulton Center, etc.? How much money is the region about to blow on stupid projects that have little utility, like AirTrain LaGuardia and PATH to EWR? Why are we not questioning the fact that somehow PABT is supposed to cost $10B for a bus terminal?

 

 

If you're sick, stay off the subway as best you can, please so you don't add to the numbers.

 

Side note: I have never understood this mentality among some workers and managers. The last thing I would want is an employee coming in sick and making the rest of my workforce sick.

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If you're sick, stay off the subway as best you can, please so you don't add to the numbers.

Side note: I have never understood this mentality among some workers and managers. The last thing I would want is an employee coming in sick and making the rest of my workforce sick.

I actually agree with the both of you.... Refrain from attempting to board the train if you feel nauseous (or otherwise, sick)... Matter fact, don't even attempt to leave the house if you're too sick..... The ones that risk & end up getting other employees sick in the workplace are the ones that are too willing to tough it out & conceal it in the process.... I hate to even say this next part, but some people JDGAF..... When I was in Manhattan, on one occasion, several of us had caught the flu from this fat f***.... Never liked the SOB before the fact anyway..... Since my promotion, since I've started working out in Mineola, EMT's (Winthrop Hosp.) has had to come to the office on two separate occasions....

 

I don't know whether to get saddened or PO'd at one of my guys, when they feel they can't come into my office to ask for the rest of the day off..... I don't think I'm that damn menacing....

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I actually agree with the both of you.... Refrain from attempting to board the train if you feel nauseous (or otherwise, sick)... Matter fact, don't even attempt to leave the house if you're too sick..... The ones that risk & end up getting other employees sick in the workplace are the ones that are too willing to tough it out & conceal it in the process.... I hate to even say this next part, but some people JDGAF..... When I was in Manhattan, on one occasion, several of us had caught the flu from this fat f***.... Never liked the SOB before the fact anyway..... Since my promotion, since I've started working out in Mineola, EMT's (Winthrop Hosp.) has had to come to the office on two separate occasions....

 

I don't know whether to get saddened or PO'd at one of my guys, when they feel they can't come into my office to ask for the rest of the day off..... I don't think I'm that damn menacing....

 

 

Side note: I have never understood this mentality among some workers and managers. The last thing I would want is an employee coming in sick and making the rest of my workforce sick.

 

 

If you're sick, stay off the subway as best you can, please so you don't add to the numbers.

 

It all comes back to if we have these problems, what are our solutions?

 

...Multi-faceted problems and solutions; political pet projects that keep real work from happening...all good points!

 

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

The issue is some companies give very few sick days or you may not be entitled to them depending on how many hours you work.  I get five sick days a year.  I usually use a few a year at the most, band will just call out if I don't feel like going in.  Since I don't abuse them my boss never questions it.  However, if you're depending on that money for the day then it's a whole different ball game.  

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I'm doing this in 2 pieces.

 

I am the first one to admit I don't know jack s#!+ about buses. However, I wasn't trying to say those purchases were unnecessary -- I was objecting to the little frills the MTA had been spending on instead of useful things. Also, monies can be moved -- that's what a capital program amendment does.

 

Ah, but the federal funding that's paying for the first wave of blue buses is for buses only. If you choose to use it for another purpose then you have to pay the federal government back the money.

 

The rest of your post I agree with. 

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The issue is some companies give very few sick days or you may not be entitled to them depending on how many hours you work. I get five sick days a year. I usually use a few a year at the most, band will just call out if I don't feel like going in. Since I don't abuse them my boss never questions it. However, if you're depending on that money for the day then it's a whole different ball game.

To rephrase a quote from a famous book: "the sick will always be among us". As much as we'd like otherwise, sick people will still ride, whether to make it to work, to go home to rest, or even to go to seek medical help. Sick passenger delays will always be with us. It's an ironic reminder of how important the subway is to the city.

 

With more people riding, that means a higher risk of medical incidents on the subway. A sick passenger can delay crowded trains, which in turn can develop into more sick passengers, causing more widespread delays. Waiting for the perfect storm of sick passenger delays...

 

RTO has enough to deal with the trains, signals, and tracks, and the innumerous parts that can fail at any time. Yes, I said any time, because unexpected failures come with the territory of man-made devices. We can mitigate failures, but we can't eliminate them.

 

 

 

 

Unrelated thought: Has ConEd been put on the spot for their contribution to this mess?

 

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

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