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Abba

Dead zone in Steinway tube strand passengers in train

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https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailynews.com/amp/new-york/subway-emergency-brakes-inexplicably-engaged-article-1.3324370

 

I still don't understand why they have to check every train when the emergency brakes go off.

Simple, to check if it was anything on the trackbed that may have activated the brakes. And before anyone jumps in with the NTT argument of "doesn't the computer tell you everything?".....

What if its down or malfunctioning?

The NTTs are designed to run basically "as SMEEs" if needed. But even if it's working, they still have to check for debris.

 

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Right but it's annoying.imagine if one day every train had a BIE for no reason.

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Right but it's annoying.imagine if one day every train had a BIE for no reason.

I understand what you are trying to say but think about your post. It's impossible to have a BIE for no reason. Maybe you meant to say "no cause found"? Something causes a BIE. It's up to the T\O to find out what caused it. Whether it's the first train or the fifteenth EACH incident must be investigated. Carry on.
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Something caused the BIE. Train crew needs to investigate AND determine it is safe to move before the train moves again.

 

Possible causes (not T/O fault):

-Pulled emergency brake (SMEE)

-Person fell between cars (12-9)

-Signal malfunction

-Debris on track

-Mechanical failure of train

 

Each possible scenario needs to be carefully investigated before the train can safely move again.

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So today If noticed in the alerts there was a train with mechanical problems at Utica Ave. this train was a (5) train in the station . The train moved ahead a little to be able to let a (4) train behind it move in.There were a total of at least 3 trains behind the BIE one.Seems like the BIE wasn't much.They were discussing connecting another (4) train to connect the the one that let its passengers off on the first car. But by then the BIE train was on its way. The third train someone said was stuck for one hour! I saw a lot of workers looking on the tracks.I would imagine there was no real apparent cause for BIE.But I guess to be safe they have to check.about 4 or 5 (4) trains were rerouted to the local track.One went to New Lots (not scheduled).

Edited by Abba

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So today If noticed in the alerts there was a train with mechanical problems at Utica Ave. this train was a (5) train in the station . The train moved ahead a little to be able to let a (4) train behind it move in.There were a total of at least 3 trains behind the BIE one.Seems like the BIE wasn't much.They were discussing connecting another (4) train to connect the the one that let its passengers off on the first car. But by then the BIE train was on its way. The third train someone said was stuck for one hour! I saw a lot of workers looking on the tracks.I would imagine there was no real apparent cause for BIE.But I guess to be safe they have to check.about 4 or 5 (4) trains were rerouted to the local track.One went to New Lots (not scheduled).

One hour delays are the new standard....  Incredible.  That doesn't even include the commute nor the rest of the time spent crawling from station to station.  

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Probobaly meant the whole time from Franklin to Utica.I always thought they should send 1 or 2 (4) trains to the local during rush to ease the conga line going into Utica.they really need a switch badly right before Utica.how much does it cost to install?

Edited by Abba

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Probobaly meant the whole time from Franklin to Utica.I always thought they should send 1 or 2 (4) trains to the local during rush to ease the conga line going into Utica.

From what I read, people were waiting for a train well past 40 minutes. 

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they really need a switch badly right before Utica.how much does it cost to install?

I can't tell you how much it remotely costs, but I can tell you that the money will go into the actual crossover as well as the existing tunnel infrastructure so it can support the crossover. If they are not going to dig up the streets and work from above then I imagine construction will be really disruptive and will cut all service east of Franklin Avenue.

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Probobaly meant the whole time from Franklin to Utica.I always thought they should send 1 or 2 (4) trains to the local during rush to ease the conga line going into Utica.they really need a switch badly right before Utica.how much does it cost to install?

 

 

I can't tell you how much it remotely costs, but I can tell you that the money will go into the actual crossover as well as the existing tunnel infrastructure so it can support the crossover. If they are not going to dig up the streets and work from above then I imagine construction will be really disruptive and will cut all service east of Franklin Avenue.

 

 

I'm pretty sure there used to be an interlocking right before Utica southbound for this exact reason, but it was removed. 

 

https://youtu.be/vUfrYZelOF0?t=4m17s At 4:17 into this video, you can see the conspicuous open space right before Utica Av. So reinstalling the switches shouldn't be too difficult, right? Seems like the MTA's just being cheap more than anything else, because being able to move through trains around trains going out of service would be really useful. 

Edited by Mysterious2train

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Probobaly meant the whole time from Franklin to Utica.I always thought they should send 1 or 2 (4) trains to the local during rush to ease the conga line going into Utica.they really need a switch badly right before Utica.how much does it cost to install?

There used to be a switch there but it was removed years ago.. I don't remember the reasoning for the removal but every time I asked about a switch removal it always came back as " too costly to maintain " or " infrequently used ". Basically it comes down to which department bears the cost instead of better train movement. My subway people know what I mean. Which department gets charged for a delay or incident instead of correcting the underlying cause itself. Offhand I can think of two locations in the IRT where cost overrode common sense. Freeman St and the section between Hoyt and Borough Hall. Carry on.
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Didn't a dead zone in the radio in the 70's result in help not arriving to a heart attack victim on the (brownM) when it went via brighton?

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I believe delays like these are going to be longer than they used to be from now on to err on the side of safety (to include CYA). With all this high profile attention, I bet you train operators are checking every possible nook and cranny twice if their train goes BIE un-commanded. I'm not getting pegged with negligence by missing the quantum disturbance in Jupiter that put my train in emergency.

 

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There used to be a switch there but it was removed years ago.. I don't remember the reasoning for the removal but every time I asked about a switch removal it always came back as " too costly to maintain " or " infrequently used ". Basically it comes down to which department bears the cost instead of better train movement. My subway people know what I mean. Which department gets charged for a delay or incident instead of correcting the underlying cause itself. Offhand I can think of two locations in the IRT where cost overrode common sense. Freeman St and the section between Hoyt and Borough Hall. Carry on.

 

I also have never understood why they removed the crossover between Hoyt and Borough Hall. That is probably the dumbest one. With the Clark Street Tunnel closure on weekends, there is no service on weekends at Hoyt. They could still have service if the crossovers were there. When was that one removed?

 

There are two more crossovers that will be removed. One at Northern Boulevard on Queens Blvd for CBTC, and one at York Street.

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There used to be a switch there but it was removed years ago.. I don't remember the reasoning for the removal but every time I asked about a switch removal it always came back as " too costly to maintain " or " infrequently used ". Basically it comes down to which department bears the cost instead of better train movement. My subway people know what I mean. Which department gets charged for a delay or incident instead of correcting the underlying cause itself. Offhand I can think of two locations in the IRT where cost overrode common sense. Freeman St and the section between Hoyt and Borough Hall. Carry on.

Switch costs too much to maintain so it becomes prone to failure.

Switch is prone to failure so it's not used as much as possible.

Switch goes unused so it gets removed. It's a vicious cycle.

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I also have never understood why they removed the crossover between Hoyt and Borough Hall. That is probably the dumbest one. With the Clark Street Tunnel closure on weekends, there is no service on weekends at Hoyt. They could still have service if the crossovers were there. When was that one removed?

 

There are two more crossovers that will be removed. One at Northern Boulevard on Queens Blvd for CBTC, and one at York Street.

What was the purpose for the Northern Blvd switch? Seems useless to me. Edited by RestrictOnTheHanger

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I'm pretty sure there used to be an interlocking right before Utica southbound for this exact reason, but it was removed. 

 

https://youtu.be/vUfrYZelOF0?t=4m17s At 4:17 into this video, you can see the conspicuous open space right before Utica Av. So reinstalling the switches shouldn't be too difficult, right? Seems like the MTA's just being cheap more than anything else, because being able to move through trains around trains going out of service would be really useful.

My mistake. I rarely go east of Franklin Avenue so I was not familiar with that section of the tunnel; I assumed there was never a crossover at that location, which I shouldn't have done. In that case, you are right - it would be less difficult than if there was no switch there in the first place.

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If more problems would arise maybe they would but Itry to avoid express sometimes because of it.

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I also have never understood why they removed the crossover between Hoyt and Borough Hall. That is probably the dumbest one. With the Clark Street Tunnel closure on weekends, there is no service on weekends at Hoyt. They could still have service if the crossovers were there. When was that one removed?

 

There are two more crossovers that will be removed. One at Northern Boulevard on Queens Blvd for CBTC, and one at York Street.

Because during late nights, Hoyt Street doesn't get much ridership when the mall is closed. It was also to have the (2) and (4) trains make a scheduled connection with one another from across the platform at Nevins Street instead of passengers having to wait 20 minutes for the next (2) or (4) since they would be arriving on the same track anyway.

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Because during late nights, Hoyt Street doesn't get much ridership when the mall is closed. It was also to have the (2) and (4) trains make a scheduled connection with one another from across the platform at Nevins Street instead of passengers having to wait 20 minutes for the next (2) or (4) since they would be arriving on the same track anyway.

Although you are correct about the present conditions at that location let me get a little deeper into why those switches existed in the first place. There were actually switches located north of Hoyt-Bridge and south of the station connecting the local and express tracks in both directions. The ones between Nevins and Hoyt were removed way before my time so I can't speak about them. The switches at the north end between Hoyt-Bridge and the Borough Hall stations were still there in the early '60s although I don't recall if they were diamond crossovers or strictly express to local types.History lesson time. Up until sometime in the 1940's the Seventh Avenue Express trains did not operate to Brooklyn on Sundays. Check out some of the route information pages in the historical map section of subway.org for example. The section of Fulton Street above the IRT, especially from Adams eastward toward Flatbush Avenue, was the prime shopping district in Brooklyn.  The BMT owned the street, trolley cars to buses, and above that the Fulton Street el. It's my guess that the IRT installed those switches to tap into the commercial district above it. $$$$$$$$$ is hard to pass up. In my early years that area boasted four big box department stores, three movie theaters (plus the Brooklyn Paramount and the Brooklyn Fox at the eastern end on Flatbush Extension, and Flatbush Avenue) as well as high end men and women apparel and shoe stores. It's my contention that today's Fulton Mall is a creation of the NYCDOT to control traffic flow because it's most certainly not a premier shopping destination. As I pointed out earlier switch removal is usually due to cost so they were expendable long before they were removed. Your point about the (2) and (4) connection at Nevins didn't go unnoticed by me. I will point out that when I started out as a C/R that connection was a convenience and not set in stone. If you took the running time from 149th-GC to Nevins back then the (4) midnight trips were longer than the (2) trips because the (4) ran local from 125th St while the (2) was express from 96th St. If I left Lenox Terminal on my way to East New York late nights my options were to hope to catch a bus from 145th across the bridge to 149th in the BX or catch the (3) shuttle to 135 for the (2) to Brooklyn. If I missed that last (4) express s/b the (2) would always win that race. Remember that any track work or other lateness voids that connection. It is/was a roll of the dice counting on that connection at Nevins in my experience. Carry on.

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