Rockaway Beach Branch

[LGA Link N Train]

1 minute ago, bobtehpanda said:

The QBL is crowded. It doesn't really need a feeder. And if it did need a feeder there are better lines and neighborhoods to feed from. Keep reachin'.

I know. While typing my previous post, I knew it'd be only good for Summertime service when everyone wants to go to the beach. BUT, if you think about it, there is some logic behind this idea

The Rockaways (at least in the summertime, can be quite an attraction) 

it WILL take at least some cars off of Woodhaven

The Northern Terminal will be in a busy Station

and yes. I know QBL is crowded, I ride it almost everyday

[bobtehpanda]

Just now, LGA Link N train said:

I know. While typing my previous post, I knew it'd be only good for Summertime service when everyone wants to go to the beach. BUT, if you think about it, there is some logic behind this idea

There really isn't any logic behind it. Who the hell builds a train service for billions of dollars just for summer?

The most logical option is no-build. That's it.

[LGA Link N Train]

(Sigh) why did I even try?

[CenSin]

On 3/29/2018 at 2:14 PM, LGA Link N train said:

Basically, I give up on advocating to use the RBB as subway service. No point in wasting my energy 

 

4 minutes ago, LGA Link N train said:

(Sigh) why did I even try?

I’m confused. Why did you try?

The substance of the matter was the work required to build the actual line versus the demand. An shuttle isn’t going to be any different in that regard. It’s just a matter of shuffling letters and route endpoints.

[LGA Link N Train]

1 minute ago, CenSin said:

I’m confused. Why did you try?

I gave up on advocating but then an Idea popped up in my head when watching a video on another thread. After some time, I decided to share out my idea and tried to put reasoning behind it. Now while ridership for this shuttle extension would be at peak in the summertime, it wouldn't be as great in other times. That doesn't mean that no one would ride it. Besides, Roosevelt is a great transfer point. it would not only be a feeder to subways but as a feeder to buses as well. 

[officiallyliam]

2 hours ago, Deucey said:

86th/Shore to Avenue U to Gateway Center; abut the Belt to IND Rockaway, follow that and RBB to Jamaica Av over to Jamaica Station.

Doesn't use the whole ROW, but hits some bus-dependent and car-heavy areas to LIRR Mainline - which, given I used to be stuck in Hempstead-bound traffic on the Belt/SSP in the AM, could get a good amount of cars off the road during peak.

You could even make a spur from where it’d abut the Belt to go down Linden Bl into St Albans, route it up or diagonal from Springfield over to Hempstead Tpk to your choice of LIRR station in Garden Citu or Hempstead (town) proper.

Is this an LRT route? Presumably not a subway, though it could be BRT as well, I suppose.

Either way, the RX does this same thing, but better, because it actually connects various residential and employment centers; it could also have a transfer to the LIRR mainline near Queens Blvd or via a spur route to Jamaica station, plus of course the closer connection to the Atlantic Branch at ENY.

33 minutes ago, LGA Link N train said:

Besides, Roosevelt is a great transfer point.

Yes, it is - that's why it's stuffed to capacity with people transferring between various trains and buses today. Adding one more line in to the mix at the existing cramped station will only make matters worse for everyone.

34 minutes ago, LGA Link N train said:

it would not only be a feeder to subways but as a feeder to buses as well.

Buses, for the most part, are feeders. Compare the number of transfers from bus to subway to the number of transfers from subway to bus; very few people are going to the mostly-residential areas served by buses during the morning rush hour. And even if they were, Roosevelt Avenue is still going to be overwhelmed.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

14 hours ago, LGA Link N train said:

I got a rather unusual Proposal via RBB;   Rockaway Shuttle extensio n

The shuttle runs with the until Aqueduct Racetrack where a new platform would be built. North of Liberty it would make stops at 101-103 Avenues or Atlantic Avenue, Jamaica Avenue and Parkside-metropolitan avenue. North of that it Turns at Rego Park and meets with the LIRR Main Line. After that it makes 2 stops. One at Rego Park and One at Grand Avenue. After Grand Avenue, it turns northwest to connect with the Roosevelt Abandoned Platform and Terminates. Benefits? Well, if there's a delay at Elmhurst towards forest Hills, you can reroute one or two trains via RBB. But the main point is to be a feeder line. Now while this wouldn't be very beneficial, it would at least be something. Of course, Roosevelt should be redesigned to accommodate such traffic. I feel this line would do good in the summer time as it could be used as an advertisement for Rockaway Beach

That’s not an unusual proposal. I’ve seen it proposed on here before...both to Roosevelt and to Woodhaven Blvd at the Queens Center Mall. I’ve suggested extending the  to Woodhaven/QC Mall with a separate lower-level platform pointing north or northeast to facilitate an extension either towards East Elmhurst/Jackson Heights or to Flushing. But to make that successful, you’d need the extension from QC Mall. But I still think the RX would most likely be a more effective way to move people within Queens by rail. 

15 hours ago, Deucey said:

86th/Shore to Avenue U to Gateway Center; abut the Belt to IND Rockaway, follow that and RBB to Jamaica Av over to Jamaica Station.

Doesn't use the whole ROW, but hits some bus-dependent and car-heavy areas to LIRR Mainline - which, given I used to be stuck in Hempstead-bound traffic on the Belt/SSP in the AM, could get a good amount of cars off the road during peak.

You could even make a spur from where it’d abut the Belt to go down Linden Bl into St Albans, route it up or diagonal from Springfield over to Hempstead Tpk to your choice of LIRR station in Garden Citu or Hempstead (town) proper.

Would this Brooklyn line be subway, RX or LIRR? From what I’m understanding, it sounds like it would need to be LIRR in order to be an effective alternative to driving on the Belt/SSP. In order to run on the main line LIRR, the part of the RBB used to get this line to Jamaica via (the LIRR Brooklyn line) would have to be LIRR. That would include part of the branch currently used by the . What would happen to the existing  in this plan?

Edited March 31, 2018 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Deucey]

22 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

That’s not an unusual proposal. I’ve seen it proposed on here before...both to Roosevelt and to Woodhaven Blvd at the Queens Center Mall. I’ve suggested extending the  to Woodhaven/QC Mall with a separate lower-level platform pointing north or northeast to facilitate an extension either towards East Elmhurst/Jackson Heights or to Flushing. But to make that successful, you’d need the extension from QC Mall. But I still think the RX would most likely be a more effective way to move people within Queens by rail. 

Would this Brooklyn line be subway, RX or LIRR? From what I’m understanding, it sounds like it would need to be LIRR in order to be an effective alternative to driving on the Belt/SSP. In order to run on the main line LIRR, the part of the RBB used to get this line to Jamaica via (the LIRR Brooklyn line) would have to be LIRR. That would include part of the branch currently used by the . What would happen to the existing  in this plan?

No, just needs to be a link to LIRR’s mainline - not an interlined service. Meaning ride this subway or grade-separated LRT, get to Jamaica and walk up or downstairs to get to your LIRR train. Same thing if the Hempstead Tpk link were used.

We all know Cross-Brooklyn bus service is atrocious, and the lack of LIRR connections for South Brooklynites (and SIers) creates the congestion on the Belt System to LI, so making a line that facilitates efficient cross-boro travel and gives more drivers a way to LI without using a car is something to investigate. All I did here was give foamers a use for part of RBB since they feel it should be used because it’s there.

My preference would be to make my proposed route go into Garden City to avoid LIRR altogether until this route reaches the terminus, but we know  wants that premium LIRR fare.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

I fully agree that cross-Brooklyn bus service is atrocious. It’s not by accident the B6 and B82 buses are among the most heavily used buses city-wide. The RX would probably make a big dent in both routes’ ridership, although the Bay Ridge Branch is further north than the catchment area of the Belt Parkway. 

I take it your proposed line would run on separate tracks from the  on the RBB portion and from the  on Jamaica Ave, then. 

Edited March 31, 2018 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Deucey]

1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I fully agree that cross-Brooklyn bus service is atrocious. It’s not by accident the B6 and B82 buses are among the most heavily used buses city-wide. The RX would probably make a big dent in both routes’ ridership, although the Bay Ridge Branch is further north than the catchment area of the Belt Parkway. 

I take it your proposed line would run on separate tracks from the  on the RBB portion and from the  on Jamaica Ave, then. 

Right - inner two trackbeds on  from just north of Howard Beach and depending on runtime on the rest of the line and if it’s LRT, streetcar-style running where parking currently is, or daylight Jamaica Av and put this route and Archer Line in a tunnel.

[bobtehpanda]

3 hours ago, Deucey said:

No, just needs to be a link to LIRR’s mainline - not an interlined service. Meaning ride this subway or grade-separated LRT, get to Jamaica and walk up or downstairs to get to your LIRR train. Same thing if the Hempstead Tpk link were used.

We all know Cross-Brooklyn bus service is atrocious, and the lack of LIRR connections for South Brooklynites (and SIers) creates the congestion on the Belt System to LI, so making a line that facilitates efficient cross-boro travel and gives more drivers a way to LI without using a car is something to investigate. All I did here was give foamers a use for part of RBB since they feel it should be used because it’s there.

My preference would be to make my proposed route go into Garden City to avoid LIRR altogether until this route reaches the terminus, but we know  wants that premium LIRR fare.

My question is how much marginal benefit do we get out of this. Using Brighton Beach to Jamaica as a rough approximation of this trip, the distance along the Brighton Line, with a transfer to the RX, and then the Atlantic Branch in a post-ESA, NYCT-owned Atlantic Branch world (the most likely outcome of severing the branch), is 13.7 miles. Your proposed route only cuts a half mile out of the entire equation and may not actually be faster.

Via RX:

• Brighton Beach to Av H - 14 minutes
• RX Brighton to ENY - 18 minutes (assuming IND average speed of 18MPH)
• ENY to Jamaica - 11 minutes
• Total trip time: 49 minutes

Via proposed RBB link:

• Brighton Beach to Av U - 5 minutes
• Light rail: Generously assuming that IND average speed, and a shorter route using Atlantic instead of Jamaica, 39 minutes
• Total trip time: 45 minutes

The question of whether or not shaving off these four minutes is worth it is literally a billion dollar question. (Fully grade separated would probably get you to one and a half or two billion.)

[Deucey]

17 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

My question is how much marginal benefit do we get out of this. Using Brighton Beach to Jamaica as a rough approximation of this trip, the distance along the Brighton Line, with a transfer to the RX, and then the Atlantic Branch in a post-ESA, NYCT-owned Atlantic Branch world (the most likely outcome of severing the branch), is 13.7 miles. Your proposed route only cuts a half mile out of the entire equation and may not actually be faster.

Via RX:

• Brighton Beach to Av H - 14 minutes
• RX Brighton to ENY - 18 minutes (assuming IND average speed of 18MPH)
• ENY to Jamaica - 11 minutes
• Total trip time: 49 minutes

Via proposed RBB link:

• Brighton Beach to Av U - 5 minutes
• Light rail: Generously assuming that IND average speed, and a shorter route using Atlantic instead of Jamaica, 39 minutes
• Total trip time: 45 minutes

The question of whether or not shaving off these four minutes is worth it is literally a billion dollar question. (Fully grade separated would probably get you to one and a half or two billion.)

Oh, you’re taking this as an actual “hey let’s build this” kinda proposal.

Yeah, I’m not actually committed to it - it’s an idea that’s an marginally more useful alternative to the “build a useless line to stop them from building a park” crowd.

I only put up a proposed route because someone asked and I was looking at Google Maps for something else. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, Deucey said:

Oh, you’re taking this as an actual “hey let’s build this” kinda proposal.

Yeah, I’m not actually committed to it - it’s an idea that’s an marginally more useful alternative to the “build a useless line to stop them from building a park” crowd.

I only put up a proposed route because someone asked and I was looking at Google Maps for something else. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's fair.

I don't disagree with a Belt alternative, but the main issue with building one is that the O/D pairs of people using the Belt are very dispersed, which makes them hard to serve with trains.

[BreeddekalbL]

@LGA Link N train

Where is the essential renovation to woodhaven blvd into an express station if you want to terminate the rbb train at roosevelt?

[LGA Link N Train]

8 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

@LGA Link N train

Where is the essential renovation to woodhaven blvd into an express station if you want to terminate the rbb train at roosevelt?

Whoops, I forgot about that. Though I have another idea for Woodhaven Blvd Queens Center Area. I'm not gonna share it though

[Deucey]

19 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

That's fair.

I don't disagree with a Belt alternative, but the main issue with building one is that the O/D pairs of people using the Belt are very dispersed, which makes them hard to serve with trains.

I think that if something like this is ever built, it’d have to have stations 1 mile apart at least, probably set slightly further north of 86th St, and would need parking garages to both finance and entice people to abandon cars for it.

[Coney Island Av]

Your points are very constructive about not wanting to build RBB, and I understand. But as @T to Dyre Avenue mentioned earlier, there are too many strikes against this line to make it be built. 

But I think that there's no point in discussing about the RBB unless there's something new to share. The thread started out good, we were getting along, but since page 7-8, we're all just arguing about the same thing over and over. But building it now would be rushed and hackneyed. We'd have to go the cheap way, which is extending the , and that alone comes with many problems. Reliability will dwindle on the  for being long, and it will overload the . The area certainly has potential to develop. But overall, the RBB should be left as-is for now. building the RBB now would just be unpolished and rushed, and building a park now will be bad if the area densifies. The RBB should be in a long-term expansion plan. 

We should look at already-dense corridors that won't get a rushed solution for subway service, and get the top priority projects done, like SAS, Utica, Nostrand, Third, etc. 

[officiallyliam]

Thank you for recapping this conversation for us.

39 minutes ago, Coney Island Av said:

But I think that there's no point in discussing about the RBB unless there's something new to share.

Then what exactly was the point of this post?

39 minutes ago, Coney Island Av said:

The thread started out good, we were getting along, but since page 7-8, we're all just arguing about the same thing over and over.

Have you actually read the whole thing? If you had, you'd know that's not the case - we used at least two pages talking about transportation on Fordham Road, one talking about a Belt Parkway transit line, and another couple of pages talking about the bypass, the Lower Montauk, and the Triboro RX - hardly the same thing over and over. This is how a conversation operates; different ideas are discussed and dropped as time passes. If the conversation had been deemed pointless, people would have stopped talking altogether or it would have been shut down.

[BreeddekalbL]

Coming soon

http://m.qchron.com/mobile/editions/queenswide/rail-study-results-may-be-out-soon/article_d134155f-7ef1-5fea-bb07-30ef78e12ba4.html

[LGA Link N Train]

1 hour ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Coming soon

http://m.qchron.com/mobile/editions/queenswide/rail-study-results-may-be-out-soon/article_d134155f-7ef1-5fea-bb07-30ef78e12ba4.html

Well, that seems like news indeed. Let's see who will win

[Wallyhorse]

On 3/30/2018 at 9:35 PM, LGA Link N train said:

I got a rather unusual Proposal via RBB;   Rockaway Shuttle extensio n

The shuttle runs with the until Aqueduct Racetrack where a new platform would be built. North of Liberty it would make stops at 101-103 Avenues or Atlantic Avenue, Jamaica Avenue and Parkside-metropolitan avenue. North of that it Turns at Rego Park and meets with the LIRR Main Line. After that it makes 2 stops. One at Rego Park and One at Grand Avenue. After Grand Avenue, it turns northwest to connect with the Roosevelt Abandoned Platform and Terminates. Benefits? Well, if there's a delay at Elmhurst towards forest Hills, you can reroute one or two trains via RBB. But the main point is to be a feeder line. Now while this wouldn't be very beneficial, it would at least be something. Of course, Roosevelt should be redesigned to accommodate such traffic. I feel this line would do good in the summer time as it could be used as an advertisement for Rockaway Beach

I like this if you can do that, though it has been noted in responses to my plan for using the never-used upper level of Roosevelt it would make for having to re-work the entire Roosevelt Avenue Station AND underpinning the  at 74th.  

What I would do is perhaps we do your proposal and have it go to a new LOWER level of Roosevelt Avenue.  From there, it could continue to 61st-Woodside (Transfer to  and LIRR) and then Broadway in Queens (transfer to  ) before continuing to Manhattan via a new 79th Street tunnel on the SAS with a stop on 79th at York-1st Avenues and a new lower level of 72nd/2nd before continuing to at first a new, temporary terminal at 55th Street-2nd Avenue until the rest of Phase 3 of the SAS is built (with the option of sending the  via the Rockaway Beach Branch as I did in my original proposals via this new route if 55th Street is NOT built immediately).  

[officiallyliam]

6 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

What I would do is perhaps we do your proposal and have it go to a new LOWER level of Roosevelt Avenue.  From there, it could continue to 61st-Woodside (Transfer to  and LIRR) and then Broadway in Queens (transfer to  ) before continuing to Manhattan via a new 79th Street tunnel on the SAS with a stop on 79th at York-1st Avenues and a new lower level of 72nd/2nd before continuing to at first a new, temporary terminal at 55th Street-2nd Avenue until the rest of Phase 3 of the SAS is built (with the option of sending the  via the Rockaway Beach Branch as I did in my original proposals via this new route if 55th Street is NOT built immediately).  

This proposal is no better.

Building a lower level at Roosevelt would require not only a re-work of the existing IND platforms and mezzanine, but would also involve underpinning the QBL (unless we're building it deep enough to not need underpinning, like East Side Access), as well as supporting the elevated line. And how to you propose the line get from Jackson Heights to Woodside - under Roosevelt Avenue? Again, unless it's built very deep under the ground, construction of the line would require keeping the Flushing line supported, as well as the LIRR tracks at Woodside.

Also, I presume these tracks will be under the LIRR from 61st Street to Woodside Avenue, where they'll turn north into Broadway. If we're building subway tracks under the LIRR, they should be for the Queens Bypass; we certainly shouldn't block or make harder the construction of a useful line (the bypass) by building a far less useful line (this).

And this is going to get done before the third phase of SAS?

[LGA Link N Train]

While useful, the Queens Bypass should be a proposal left alone for a better solution. (To rephrase that, I'm saying that we should look into something that'd be a better alternative to the Queens Bypass) Of course, there's no way in hell that it'd be RBB. I'd just increase LIRR service since East Side Access is being built. (of course you'd have to deal with Penn Station

[Deucey]

6 minutes ago, LGA Link N train said:

While useful, the Queens Bypass should be a proposal left alone for a better solution. (To rephrase that, I'm saying that we should look into something that'd be a better alternative to the Queens Bypass) Of course, there's no way in hell that it'd be RBB. I'd just increase LIRR service since East Side Access is being built. (of course you'd have to deal with Penn Station

I think earlier in this thread I mentioned putting RBB with a express/local crosstown line via 23rd or 34th St (via Metropolitan, IIRC). That could be a Queens Bypass-lite - send the express via RBB and the local to Queens Community College. Dunno how it'd relieve crowding on  but it could do wonders for QBL if it had a transfer at or before Continental.

[officiallyliam]

6 minutes ago, LGA Link N train said:

While useful, the Queens Bypass should be a proposal left alone for a better solution. (To rephrase that, I'm saying that we should look into something that'd be a better alternative to the Queens Bypass) Of course, there's no way in hell that it'd be RBB. I'd just increase LIRR service since East Side Access is being built. (of course you'd have to deal with Penn Station

There's no reason that couldn't work. However, for increased LIRR service to be a viable alternative for subway service, the way in which the railroad operates today would have to be changed. This would mean:

• Fares within the city would have to be rationalized. This means the end of commuter rail service being treated as a "premium"; rather, it should be treated as an equivalent public service to subway and bus services. While a zonal fare system could continue outside of the city, free transfers would need to be available to the subway and to bus services within NYC, and should also be available to NICE buses in Nassau. Within the city (and gradually expanding outside), LIRR stations should have faregates installed as its a much more efficient way to deal with the collection of a large number of fares.
• The railroad(s) would actually need to start serving the city. Both LIRR and MNRR are guilty of skipping NYC stops on trains that could otherwise stop and serve city passengers. As it pertains to the QBL corridor, service to Forest Hills and Kew Gardens would need to be much better - 6 tph during the rush hour at least - in order to entice passengers away from the subway. Platforms at both of these stations should be lengthened so they can platform more than four cars. Quite frankly, all or most of the electric service bound for GCT should make Queens stops, with the diesels bound for Penn and LIC skipping.

The same can be said about Metro-North service on the Hudson and Harlem lines (as well as New Haven when Penn Station Access arrives). All of these lines serve, or will serve, dense areas of the city - just as the LIRR does through Queens - and trains should do their job and serve these areas.

While all this may sound good, it will require institutional changes at both railroads and the MTA at large that the agency would be unlikely and unwilling to adopt quickly.