Rockaway Beach Branch

[Lawrence St]

On 5/19/2018 at 12:48 AM, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

The real issue is that local service is not being provided adequately. It's absolutely atrocious when only the  runs local. Trains go missing, sometimes even consecutively. Then you have a whole bunch of  and  trains dumping people off at Roosevelt. I almost always take the Q53 when I'm going to Woodhaven Boulevard, instead of the . 

I avoid QBL at all costs on the weekends. The last time I was there I got trapped on the between Queens Plaza and Jackson Heights for an hour. But the should not be the sole local on QBL, that just causes uneven ridership levels.

But anyway, regarding the RBB, I honestly don't think Woodhaven needs to be converted, at least for right now. What I was thinking in terms of service is this:

Extend the Rockaway Park Shuttle (now called ) from Broad Channel to Aqeduct, then over the RBB to the stations that were previously there, connect to the QBL and run local, then terminate at the upper level at Jackson Heights (that level should be repurposed as a station.)

This removes the fear of making the or to long if they were extended over the RBB, still gives riders along the RBB connections to the  , and gives Rockaway Park more service.

And I forgot to point this out the last time I was hiking over there, most of the lines essential parts are still there, the only problem is that Ozone Park needs to be checked for structural damage, the bridge over the Mountak line I believe needs to be replaced since it no longer exists, and the line needs to be elevated at the end of Forest Park and the baseball field because of the new properties that are there. And the platforms as well, those need to be replaced and someone needs to kick that school bus company off of the Woodhaven Station site since they illegally extended their lot into the station and destroyed part of the platform.

[Wallyhorse]

On 5/20/2018 at 7:39 AM, Lawrence St said:

I avoid QBL at all costs on the weekends. The last time I was there I got trapped on the between Queens Plaza and Jackson Heights for an hour. But the should not be the sole local on QBL, that just causes uneven ridership levels.

But anyway, regarding the RBB, I honestly don't think Woodhaven needs to be converted, at least for right now. What I was thinking in terms of service is this:

Extend the Rockaway Park Shuttle (now called ) from Broad Channel to Aqeduct, then over the RBB to the stations that were previously there, connect to the QBL and run local, then terminate at the upper level at Jackson Heights (that level should be repurposed as a station.)

This removes the fear of making the or to long if they were extended over the RBB, still gives riders along the RBB connections to the  , and gives Rockaway Park more service.

And I forgot to point this out the last time I was hiking over there, most of the lines essential parts are still there, the only problem is that Ozone Park needs to be checked for structural damage, the bridge over the Mountak line I believe needs to be replaced since it no longer exists, and the line needs to be elevated at the end of Forest Park and the baseball field because of the new properties that are there. And the platforms as well, those need to be replaced and someone needs to kick that school bus company off of the Woodhaven Station site since they illegally extended their lot into the station and destroyed part of the platform.

And this is why I would do it with the  becoming the full-time route to Rockaway Park via the RBB (which eliminates the Rockaway Park shuttle), from Whitehall all times except late nights when such would start at 34th Street (and the returning to Astoria 24/7 while the becomes the secondary line there weekdays and goes to 96th-2nd the rest of the time).

[Lawrence St]

6 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

And this is why I would do it with the  becoming the full-time route to Rockaway Park via the RBB (which eliminates the Rockaway Park shuttle), from Whitehall all times except late nights when such would start at 34th Street (and the returning to Astoria 24/7 while the becomes the secondary line there weekdays and goes to 96th-2nd the rest of the time).

But why when you can modify the existing service pattern? 

[Lance]

Because no Wallyhorse-style service proposal is complete without rearranging the entire B-Division.

[Wallyhorse]

5 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

But why when you can modify the existing service pattern? 

The is too long and the misses to me one key element that could cost re-activating the RBB: Lower Manhattan.

There is a psychological element to me that says any RBB line must include service to lower Manhattan to appease those who still think of that area as "The Financial District" (even if its far from what it once was) as there are those who I think will only support it if such a line starts in lower Manhattan.   That's why I make the the full-time RBB line while the returns to its pre-1987 routing of 95th-Astoria (and what probably is the 's "natural route") while the is a secondary route to Astoria during the week and runs to 96th/2nd late nights and weekends.  

The first step is actually GETTING the line re-activated, and that might mean not doing things that are ideal to convince those who have the power to get it re-activated. 

[Lawrence St]

1 minute ago, Wallyhorse said:

The is too long and the misses to me one key element that could cost re-activating the RBB: Lower Manhattan.

There is a psychological element to me that says any RBB line must include service to lower Manhattan to appease those who still think of that area as "The Financial District" (even if its far from what it once was) as there are those who I think will only support it if such a line starts in lower Manhattan.   That's why I make the the full-time RBB line while the returns to its pre-1987 routing of 95th-Astoria (and what probably is the 's "natural route") while the is a secondary route to Astoria during the week and runs to 96th/2nd late nights and weekends.  

The first step is actually GETTING the line re-activated, and that might mean not doing things that are ideal to convince those who have the power to get it re-activated. 

But WHY? Just extend the to the upper level at Jackson Heights and label it the , simple and no confusing service pattern.

[Wallyhorse]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

But WHY? Just extend the to the upper level at Jackson Heights and label it the , simple and no confusing service pattern.

In a word, politics.

[Lance]

You keep using that word. I don't think you know what it means.

[N6 Limited]

On 5/20/2018 at 7:39 AM, Lawrence St said:

I avoid QBL at all costs on the weekends. The last time I was there I got trapped on the between Queens Plaza and Jackson Heights for an hour. But the should not be the sole local on QBL, that just causes uneven ridership levels.

That's horrible, I avoided the QBL on weekends also, defaulted to LIRR City TIcket, but now I avoid QBL all the time, gonna start getting Atlantic Ticket weeklys.

As for the  being the sole local on weekends. There is always track work so at this point it doesn't make much of a difference, however on "normal" weekends there are a few things they can do.

1) Run  and  local, turn the at Queens Plaza. - The  run frequent and they won't be blocked by  at Forest Hills.

2) Run the and  local and the  express. - The  is longer than the so run it express to reduce running time. 

3) Run the  and  express and the  local ,turn the  at Queens Plaza. -  gets screwed up too much, send a more reliable line to cover the QB Local.

4) If the runs by it self, hold it at Roosevelt if there are incoming and  trains to reduce transfer times.

5) Send an or  local if there is a gap in service. They should be able to breeze through with no in the way once it gets to Forest Hills.

 

The problem with the MTA is that they make 'minor' problems worse by not making quick customer friendly actions. If there is a gap in  service, send an  or  local and then the passengers waiting for local service won't loathe the MTA for the day. There are riders on the  or  that may be a bit irritated, but the train should move along quickly.

Trains are delayed due to track work? Hold a bus at Jamaica for a few mins since there's an incoming  or  and the bus riders won't loathe the MTA because they missed their bus due to track work.

Quick Question: if there are local track conga lines on Queens Blvd into Forest HIlls, why can't they dump a or train at Roosevelt and deadhead on the express track to the yard to clear up the congestion? 

[LGA Link N Train]

34 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Quick Question: if there are local track conga lines on Queens Blvd into Forest HIlls, why can't they dump a or train at Roosevelt and deadhead on the express track to the yard to clear up the congestion? 

The Queens Blvd Express can only handle up to 30 TPH. Deadheading a train at Roosevelt would make things worse. Just send a train of 2 to 179, and have an run express to 179. 

1 hour ago, Lance said:

You keep using that word. I don't think you know what it means.

Did you just Roast him?

Edited May 24, 2018 by LGA Link N train

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 5/23/2018 at 10:57 PM, Wallyhorse said:

And this is why I would do it with the  becoming the full-time route to Rockaway Park via the RBB (which eliminates the Rockaway Park shuttle), from Whitehall all times except late nights when such would start at 34th Street (and the returning to Astoria 24/7 while the becomes the secondary line there weekdays and goes to 96th-2nd the rest of the time).

Presuming 38th St Yard is set up to store and stage revenue service trains (which is actually being considered in the long-term SAS plans), the  can be moved there. Then (and only then), the  can run to/from Astoria full time and the  can go to QBL and possibly also the RBB. Then your plan actually would be a realistic plan - well, except that part about the  becoming the secondary Astoria service. The  would be able to run far more frequently than now, that there would no longer be a need for a secondary service in Astoria. The  could run express all the way in Manhattan and support the  on 2nd Ave seven days a week...

21 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

The is too long and the misses to me one key element that could cost re-activating the RBB: Lower Manhattan.

There is a psychological element to me that says any RBB line must include service to lower Manhattan to appease those who still think of that area as "The Financial District" (even if its far from what it once was) as there are those who I think will only support it if such a line starts in lower Manhattan.   That's why I make the the full-time RBB line while the returns to its pre-1987 routing of 95th-Astoria (and what probably is the 's "natural route") while the is a secondary route to Astoria during the week and runs to 96th/2nd late nights and weekends.  

The first step is actually GETTING the line re-activated, and that might mean not doing things that are ideal to convince those who have the power to get it re-activated. 

...and then you had to mess it up by bringing up the same tired old phony reason why. 😔 

There are many factors that need to be considered for restoring the RBB line. Serving Lower Manhattan directly would (and should) be far from the top of the list...especially since RBB already has the  providing direct service to the Financial District. The  has not one, but two stops in Long Island City (the second being the centrally located 23rd St-Court Sq) and a more central location in East Midtown, which would make a strong case for it to be the RBB service. But its weekdays-only operation (in Manhattan and on QBL), relatively long route and multiple merges could make a strong case [/b]against[/b] rerouting the  there. Potentially the  would not have nearly as many merges (although it too, is a weekdays-only service). Rule out the  because it becomes the new Astoria line with a storage yard in Sunset Park, Brooklyn. If not, then rule out the  because it would be far too long of a line. 

But we must also consider other factors, such as whether or not the ridership is there and how well the existing train services - the , the  and the LIRR Atlantic Branch - can handle it.

Edited May 25, 2018 by T to Dyre Avenue

[B35 via Church]

18 hours ago, Lance said:

You keep using that word. I don't think you know what it means.

One word answers like that are generally attempts at feigning intelligence.....

All it conveys to me, is that the incapacity of a cogent rebuttal is present..... Otherwise, you'd make your argument/counter-argument.

 

[CenSin]

On 5/24/2018 at 11:03 AM, Wallyhorse said:

There is a psychological element to me that says any RBB line must include service to lower Manhattan to appease those who still think of that area as "The Financial District" (even if its far from what it once was) as there are those who I think will only support it if such a line starts in lower Manhattan.

I don’t know about that; I think it’s all in your head. That Ghost of Subway Past has overstayed its welcome.

[Coney Island Av]

 

On 5/24/2018 at 11:03 AM, Wallyhorse said:

The is too long and the misses to me one key element that could cost re-activating the RBB: Lower Manhattan.

There is a psychological element to me that says any RBB line must include service to lower Manhattan to appease those who still think of that area as "The Financial District" (even if its far from what it once was) as there are those who I think will only support it if such a line starts in lower Manhattan.   That's why I make the the full-time RBB line while the returns to its pre-1987 routing of 95th-Astoria (and what probably is the 's "natural route") while the is a secondary route to Astoria during the week and runs to 96th/2nd late nights and weekends.  

If you want a ride to Lower Manhattan, you're in the wrong place. You should've hopped off at the casino if you wanted to take a much faster route on + speed. 

Think back to 2010, where the  was rerouted up 6th and combined with the  for one reason. Oh you can't remember it? Riders in Ridgewood/Glendale wanted to go UP, not down the drain on a Nassau  train. Still can't remember what I mean? 22,000  riders transferred to other lines that went to Midtown, 17,000 stayed on the train to Lower Manhattan, and the  was carrying dust along the West End. 

Despite the fact that Lower Manhattan has the World Trade Center, Midtown is arguably where most businesses are concentrated today. 

Instead of this complex rearrangement of the entire B-division, why don't you leave them alone and let riders....

Transfer.

[Wallyhorse]

4 hours ago, Coney Island Av said:

 

If you want a ride to Lower Manhattan, you're in the wrong place. You should've hopped off at the casino if you wanted to take a much faster route on + speed. 

Think back to 2010, where the  was rerouted up 6th and combined with the  for one reason. Oh you can't remember it? Riders in Ridgewood/Glendale wanted to go UP, not down the drain on a Nassau  train. Still can't remember what I mean? 22,000  riders transferred to other lines that went to Midtown, 17,000 stayed on the train to Lower Manhattan, and the  was carrying dust along the West End. 

Despite the fact that Lower Manhattan has the World Trade Center, Midtown is arguably where most businesses are concentrated today. 

Instead of this complex rearrangement of the entire B-division, why don't you leave them alone and let riders....

Transfer.

And in a perfect world, I actually agree.  Politics aside, 2 av would actually be a perfect point to start such a line if it went up 6 av and then QB (perhaps where such runs with the  via 63rd and skips Queens Plaza but otherwise runs local after that.  This could be a revival of the train.

My concern has always been those who would greenlight such a project or be willing to support it.  Would they be willing to if such a line did not serve what to some still is "The Financial District?"  If that is NOT a sticking point with those in power, then yes, you can perhaps have the operate on the RBB to Rockaway Park as it would make much more sense than the (R).  

[BreeddekalbL]

If this project is done do they give the racetrack/casino station another platform for Rockaway passengers?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

I’d prefer they replace the northbound-only Aqueduct station with a proper station at Linden Blvd/Centreville St. That seems like it would attract more people to use the Rockaway Branch of the , rather than take the buses along Cross Bay Blvd to Rockaway Blvd.

[bobtehpanda]

5 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

And in a perfect world, I actually agree.  Politics aside, 2 av would actually be a perfect point to start such a line if it went up 6 av and then QB (perhaps where such runs with the  via 63rd and skips Queens Plaza but otherwise runs local after that.  This could be a revival of the train.

My concern has always been those who would greenlight such a project or be willing to support it.  Would they be willing to if such a line did not serve what to some still is "The Financial District?"  If that is NOT a sticking point with those in power, then yes, you can perhaps have the operate on the RBB to Rockaway Park as it would make much more sense than the (R).  

I don't know what your obsession with the Financial District is. It's clearly not that big a deal; we dumped LIRR to WTC in favor of East Side Access. Hudson Yards and Midtown East are the new priorities today.

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

I don't know what your obsession with the Financial District is. It's clearly not that big a deal; we dumped LIRR to WTC in favor of East Side Access. Hudson Yards and Midtown East are the new priorities today.

"FiDi" is what it is & AFAIC, what it's always going to be.... Flavor of the month, it's definitely not.....

Not only am I glad the MTA prioritized ESA over direct Lower Manhattan access w/ the LIRR, it simply made more sense.....

Anyone heralding the locale of the Financial District with any increased relevancy here in 2018 is seriously stuck in a time warp.....

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

"FiDi" is what it is & AFAIC, what it's always going to be.... Flavor of the month, it's definitely not.....

Not only am I glad the MTA prioritized ESA over direct Lower Manhattan access w/ the LIRR, it simply made more sense.....

Anyone heralding the locale of the Financial District with any increased relevancy here in 2018 is seriously stuck in a time warp.....

Not to mention, the first version of the World Trade Center was built to revitalize Lower Manhattan in the '70s. We've been through this before, and WTC 2: Electric Boogaloo isn't doing too hot.

Quote

It was recently revealed that One World Trade Center still has a 25 percent vacancy rate four years after opening its door, and that number is about to grow. The first tenant to move into the building in 2014, Condé Nast is now looking to sublease a third of its one-million-square-foot office space.

Source: https://www.6sqft.com/conde-nast-to-sublease-350000-square-feet-of-its-one-world-trade-center-headquarters/

[Deucey]

2 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Not to mention, the first version of the World Trade Center was built to revitalize Lower Manhattan in the '70s. We've been through this before, and WTC 2: Electric Boogaloo isn't doing too hot.

It’s why I’m telling my bosses to move our startup to FiDi - cheaper rent and three lines to get them there.

Plus Midtown sucks.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

15 minutes ago, Deucey said:

It’s why I’m telling my bosses to move our startup to FiDi - cheaper rent and three lines to get them there.

Plus Midtown sucks.

lol@FiDi

[Deucey]

10 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

lol@FiDi

I like FinDis better, but I’m not a trendsetter.

[Wallyhorse]

4 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

I don't know what your obsession with the Financial District is. It's clearly not that big a deal; we dumped LIRR to WTC in favor of East Side Access. Hudson Yards and Midtown East are the new priorities today.

It's not an obsession.  It's just I know people who are in fact stuck in a time warp (I see this all the time with Horse Racing for instance) and many of those types still remember lower Manhattan as such for example.  It's just a lot of time TPTB who can decide matters forget how much things have changed and lower Manhattan is clearly not what it once was (why for instance when the Fulton Transportation Center was built I would have put a 45-50 story residential tower on top of it).   My concern was there is still a mentality among some about Lower Manhattan (even if they should know better) that would have me concerned.  As long as that is NOT an issue, I would as noted THEN go with the or better a revived train that would operate from 2nd Avenue to Rockaway Park and be MUCH more useful than the old version of the (while the in that scenario would go to 96th St-2nd Avenue at all times and later 125th-2nd, at least until the comes aboard).  

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

Not to mention, the first version of the World Trade Center was built to revitalize Lower Manhattan in the '70s. We've been through this before, and WTC 2: Electric Boogaloo isn't doing too hot.

Source: https://www.6sqft.com/conde-nast-to-sublease-350000-square-feet-of-its-one-world-trade-center-headquarters/

😂🤣 (on the Electric Boogaloo part).  

Very interesting on Conde Nast.  Might have been better to rebuild the WTC as a residential complex.  

[RR503]

12 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

It's not an obsession.  It's just I know people who are in fact stuck in a time warp (I see this all the time with Horse Racing for instance) and many of those types still remember lower Manhattan as such for example.  It's just a lot of time TPTB who can decide matters forget how much things have changed and lower Manhattan is clearly not what it once was (why for instance when the Fulton Transportation Center was built I would have put a 45-50 story residential tower on top of it).   My concern was there is still a mentality among some about Lower Manhattan (even if they should know better) that would have me concerned.  As long as that is NOT an issue, I would as noted THEN go with the or better a revived train that would operate from 2nd Avenue to Rockaway Park and be MUCH more useful than the old version of the (while the in that scenario would go to 96th St-2nd Avenue at all times and later 125th-2nd, at least until the comes aboard).  

"I'm not obsessed! I just have a passion!" 

Wally, if there is a forum that understands obsession, it's this one. You're obsessed. With hospitals, horse racing, the phrase "as I noted," and the letter T. 

Now, to address your claim about the supposed psychology of the Financial district, may I kindly request some contemporary evidence? Because having worked for/met/heard some of these "powers that be," they are under no illusion about Lower Manhattan's position in the city. Remember, they're the ones that created its situation -- they get where it is, and why it is there. 

This discussion, of course, ignores the fundamental flaws of the RBB as a corridor, but that's for a different day when we have learned not to use psychology and politics as crutches for failing arguments.