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5 hours ago, RR503 said:

 

How does an extension to elminate what was hands-down the least efficient termination procedure in the system at the other end of a line mean anything relative to the end we're talking about? People on QB want to go to Manhattan, not Manhattan Avenue. Why do you think the 11th st cut was built? Or the 63rd street connector? 

I'm all for the bypass, but how does installing a track that allows trains to skip the areas we're talking about in any way help transit access in said areas?

The Jamaica line doesn't need express service. It needs skip-stop to be ended. The time savings commuters will realize in shortened headways because of that will vastly outweigh any savings from express service. If you feel bad for getting rid of express, then send the (J) local from Bway Junction to Marcy, and the (Z) express -- the stops from Myrtle to Marcy need more service anyway. 

The time difference between taking the (M)(R) vs (E) from Roosevelt to Queens Plaza is about two minutes, and that's before we factor in delays at 36th street on the express tracks. The difference is all in the perception of greater speed. I wish there was a way we could demonstrate that to commuters. 

Everybody in New York wants subway service. The fact of the matter is that given the size of the un/underserved population along RBB, and the time savings that such a project would get them, other projects would be able to bring more to the city than this one. There are dense areas of the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens (think 3rd avenue, Utica Avenue and Northern Boulevard) that have no subway service whatsoever. They should get first priority simply because the good we'd be doing them would have more impact. In planning we have to make choices like this -- money isn't infinite. We have to pursue the projects that will bring the greatest good for the greatest number, which the RBB will not. 

Look, a few months ago, I was walking in Forest Park, and hiked down to the old ROW to see how it was doing. The state of affairs -- trees in the tracks, ties rotting, the corridor being reintegrated into nature -- made me sad. In that moment, I too wanted to reactivate the line; to see trains rolling south towards the beaches. But rationally, I knew that couldn't happen. There are other, bigger, fish to fry at the moment. Whatever your connection of sentiment may be with the line, you must dissociate -- see the big picture. For it's this exact mentality of pet projects that has wrought our current transportational disaster. 

This is truly an outstanding post. 

I do have one minor quibble however- Skip stop service has a value on Jamaica, as most of the stops being skipped aren't particularly notable in terms of ridership. I think a stronger argument could be made for eliminating the inner Broadway El express, as some of those stops really are getting quite busy. Either way- neither will be done, because speeding up the J is important to allow it to relieve the Queens Boulevard express, so that as many people as possible can be diverted away from the E. (Which to bring this all full circle, is one of the reasons why the RBL will never be reactivated- Nobody in their right mind would connect anything to Queens Boulevard.)

 

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6 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

I added the variable of those who are not near the q52 qnd q53

The Q52/Q53 closely parallel the RBL. There is no area for which this is a reality. 

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34 minutes ago, Art Vandelay said:

This is truly an outstanding post. 

I do have one minor quibble however- Skip stop service has a value on Jamaica, as most of the stops being skipped aren't particularly notable in terms of ridership. I think a stronger argument could be made for eliminating the inner Broadway El express, as some of those stops really are getting quite busy. Either way- neither will be done, because speeding up the J is important to allow it to relieve the Queens Boulevard express, so that as many people as possible can be diverted away from the E. (Which to bring this all full circle, is one of the reasons why the RBL will never be reactivated- Nobody in their right mind would connect anything to Queens Boulevard.)

 

Which is why I'm of the belief that the only real good use of RBL would be if it was rebuilt as a LRT line to connect SW Brooklyn/Bay Ridge to JFK and the LIRR at Jamaica (or even Mineola) to relieve Belt Pkwy/SSP reverse commute traffic to Hempstead. Even Andy's LGA AirTrain could be "modified" to do the same thing for Queens along the GCP and the Van And Cross Island.

But those are some of those "Nice to have" things, and since (MTA) doesn't act as a regional planning agency for traffic control, we'll never have that.

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5 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

And the thing is for those in the rockaways how you gonna force them to go to manhattan to go to forest hills 

 

51 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

I added the variable of those who are not near the q52 qnd q53

 

A better question is: Who is actually doing that commute in the first place? Most people go to either Jamaica or Brooklyn, of those who commute outside of the Peninsula. That group is probably very very small, especially when you factor in people who do not have a one-fare ride to Forest Hills. That technically only leaves Edgemere as the only neighborhood which fits the scenario (well besides Roxbury and Breezy Point, but those can be excluded). I understand that there are connectivity issues, but not all gaps need to be filled in. This is just looking for anything to justify having the RBB.

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5 hours ago, D to 96 St said:

SMH. I'll leave y'all alone before I repeat myself. This thread started out good till everyone started arguing in a debate over buses vs. trains. Until I can come with a solution everyone can agree to, or if someone else does the same, I'll not be posting in this thread. 

This thread is still generally healthy, and I still think the discussion is good, despite the multiple and opposing views among us. Complaining and asking to lock thread just because people do not have the same views is not, and disrupts the flow of discussion. Nobody will think just like you, that's the way life is. 

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1 hour ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

This thread is still generally healthy, and I still think the discussion is good, despite the multiple and opposing views among us. Complaining and asking to lock thread just because people do not have the same views is not, and disrupts the flow of discussion. Nobody will think just like you, that's the way life is. 

I've been intermittently reading this thread...

I didn't care for the attempts at mediation & pacification.... Miffed initially because folks didn't agree with him, which later turned into irritation because everyone couldn't come to some central agreement or something.... Internet forums would be a total bore if everyone sat back stroking each other, on some I agree, I agree - yup, goddamnit, I agree with ya, all the time..... Dissent is nothing to try to thwart or eradicate....

His decision (in that last post) should've been derived at, back when he was unjustly calling for the thread to be locked....

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18 hours ago, Art Vandelay said:

Looking at the schedules of the R and the A, it looks as if, should the RBB be reactivated and connected to the Queens Blvd Local the fastest route to much of midtown from the Rockaways would be... The A.  This isn't just a solution to a non-existent problem- it is a non-solution to a non-existent problem. 

That's not actually true. Google Maps puts the time from Rockaway Blvd (A) to PABT at 40 minutes. 63 Dr - Rego Park to PABT is 26 minutes. Assuming that the new train line makes the same average speed as the current (R), that puts Rockaway Blvd to PABT in 32 minutes via RBB.

I don't actually think RBB is a priority, it's just better once built than the current options to get to Midtown.

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14 hours ago, LGA Link N train said:

Well, I see that this thread became an argument pretty quickly. Someone mentioned here about turning RBB into a trunk line. I think it was either @Deucey or someone else. You just lit up an idea in my head

As for the (G) to Forest Hills debate and QBL local tracks not at full capacity.. As a rider of the Queens Blvd trunk line and seeing how LIC and Greenpoint have  been developing over the years I agree to re extending it. Your only obstacle would be capacity. BTW,  Forest Hills is a Trashy terminal and by trashy I mean inefficient.

as for RBB, it would be nice to have as I said earlier (or someone else) it gives us a chance to build a new trunk line for a cheap price. 

I'm pretty sure that WE CAN ALL AGREE that both subway and bus service need to be improved. 

That's all I have to say for now

If you want to call a debate with reasonable criticisms an argument, sure. If you can't take the heat, get outta the kitchen.

11 hours ago, D to 96 St said:

SMH. I'll leave y'all alone before I repeat myself. This thread started out good till everyone started arguing in a debate over buses vs. trains. Until I can come with a solution everyone can agree to, or if someone else does the same, I'll not be posting in this thread. 

Honestly, who died and made you king?

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Lessons to be learned here, folks:

Quote

The Man, the Boy, and the Donkey
by Aesop

A Man and his son were once going with their Donkey to market. As they were walking along by its side a countryman passed them and said: “You fools, what is a Donkey for but to ride upon?”

So the Man put the Boy on the Donkey and they went on their way. But soon they passed a group of men, one of whom said: “See that lazy youngster, he lets his father walk while he rides.”

So the Man ordered his Boy to get off, and got on himself. But they hadn’t gone far when they passed two women, one of whom said to the other: “Shame on that lazy lout to let his poor little son trudge along.”

Well, the Man didn’t know what to do, but at last he took his Boy up before him on the Donkey. By this time they had come to the town, and the passers-by began to jeer and point at them. The Man stopped and asked what they were scoffing at. The men said: “Aren’t you ashamed of yourself for overloading that poor donkey of yours and your hulking son?”

The Man and Boy got off and tried to think what to do. They thought and they thought, till at last they cut down a pole, tied the donkey’s feet to it, and raised the pole and the donkey to their shoulders. They went along amid the laughter of all who met them till they came to Market Bridge, when the Donkey, getting one of his feet loose, kicked out and caused the Boy to drop his end of the pole. In the struggle the Donkey fell over the bridge, and his fore-feet being tied together he was drowned.

“That will teach you,” said an old man who had followed them:

“Please all, and you will please none.”

Quote

The Donkey and a Sculptor
(from https://storyplanets.com/the-donkey-and-a-sculptor/)

There lived a sculptor along with his donkey in a village. The sculptor used to carve beautiful idols of gods and goddesses. One day a rich man came to the sculptor and ordered to make him a beautiful goddess idol.

The sculptor made a goddess idol and had to take that idol of a goddess to a rich man. He mounted the idol on a donkey and started towards rich man’s house.

As they walked along, people started to admire the idol. Some people stopped the donkey to admire the idol and some bowed in respect for the goddess. The foolish donkey thought that people were admiring him.

The donkey stopped half way through and began to bray loudly. The sculptor tried gentle words and actions to pacify the donkey. But, the donkey did not move. At last, the sculptor took a hard stick and thrashed the donkey. It came back to his senses and started walking on humbly.

 

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6 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

That's not actually true. Google Maps puts the time from Rockaway Blvd (A) to PABT at 40 minutes. 63 Dr - Rego Park to PABT is 26 minutes. Assuming that the new train line makes the same average speed as the current (R), that puts Rockaway Blvd to PABT in 32 minutes via RBB.

I don't actually think RBB is a priority, it's just better once built than the current options to get to Midtown.

63rd Drive to Times Square is a 35 minute trip. Rockaway Boulevard to PABT is 39 minutes. I see almost no chance of the R making it from 63rd Drive to Rock Blvd in under 4 minutes. Even if it teleported, the time savings would be insignificant. 

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On 11/25/2017 at 7:10 PM, D to 96 St said:

The whole point of turning trains at 2 Av-Houston is because someone pointed out the (M) wold be long, so that is the purpose. 

Or (since this would be long after the (L) shutdown is over) I would have it where the (M) is permanently moved to 96th Street-2nd Avenue (joining the (Q) there) and revive the old (V) to replace the (M) on QBL with the (V) running to Rockaway Park. 

That said, I would  still prefer to do it with the (W) out of Whitehall (late nights to/from 34th Street) and put the (R) back on Astoria as the full-time line there with  ((R) trains going out of service going via the West End or Sea Beach to Coney Island and) the (N) joining the (Q) to 96th on two fronts:

1. You would this way eliminate a lot of switches by doing so.

2, You might have more political clout to have it done if the new RBB line went to lower Manhattan to serve what some (even if WE know better) still consider to be "the financial district," particular the operators of the Casino at Aqueduct (who are from Malaysia).  

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19 hours ago, D to 96 St said:

SMH. I'll leave y'all alone before I repeat myself. This thread started out good till everyone started arguing in a debate over buses vs. trains. Until I can come with a solution everyone can agree to, or if someone else does the same, I'll not be posting in this thread. 

 

19 hours ago, LGA Link N train said:

Come to think of it, I said something similar a few pages back

And you two think these posts are a good use of forum bandwidth?

15 hours ago, Art Vandelay said:

This is truly an outstanding post. 

I do have one minor quibble however- Skip stop service has a value on Jamaica, as most of the stops being skipped aren't particularly notable in terms of ridership. I think a stronger argument could be made for eliminating the inner Broadway El express, as some of those stops really are getting quite busy. Either way- neither will be done, because speeding up the J is important to allow it to relieve the Queens Boulevard express, so that as many people as possible can be diverted away from the E. (Which to bring this all full circle, is one of the reasons why the RBL will never be reactivated- Nobody in their right mind would connect anything to Queens Boulevard.)

 

Thank you!

Much of the reason that those stops have such low ridership is exactly because they are skipped. Having a subway that (in a perfect world) runs every ten minutes during rush doesn't exactly inspire usage. Yes, I'm sure some people from Jamaica use the (J)(Z) to get to lower manhattan because of skip stop, but I know folks who take the (E) because it runs more frequently, more reliably, and just 'feels' faster. And anyway, you can probably claw back a few minutes lost from skip-stop if you send half of all trains full express from Bway to Marcy. I'd actually wager that the flying along the middle track there would help attract Jamaica riders more so than skip stop, which just feels slow. 

But returning to ridership. Look at the ridership gains made in Chicago when they eliminated skip-stop. We can do the same here. The current pattern privileges the needs of Jamaica residents over those of riders along the (J) line proper -- an unfair situation if I may say so. Again, greatest good for the greatest number. 

7 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Or (since this would be long after the (L) shutdown is over) I would have it where the (M) is permanently moved to 96th Street-2nd Avenue (joining the (Q) there) and revive the old (V) to replace the (M) on QBL with the (V) running to Rockaway Park. 

That said, I would  still prefer to do it with the (W) out of Whitehall (late nights to/from 34th Street) and put the (R) back on Astoria as the full-time line there with  ((R) trains going out of service going via the West End or Sea Beach to Coney Island and) the (N) joining the (Q) to 96th on two fronts:

1. You would this way eliminate a lot of switches by doing so.

2, You might have more political clout to have it done if the new RBB line went to lower Manhattan to serve what some (even if WE know better) still consider to be "the financial district," particular the operators of the Casino at Aqueduct (who are from Malaysia).  

Oh Wally... You're proposing to run three distinct services on 6th avenue local -- something that is, well, impossible. The (F) needs 15, the (M) 10, and QBL at least 10 (V). That's 35. 

You know, I agree with your sending the (N) up SAS, but I just don't understand the fascination you (and others) have with the (R) to Astoria. There's a reason they eliminated that service pattern, and it's because the very deadheading you suggest to and from CI was inefficient. Repeating actions we know to have failed before expecting a different result is pretty much the definition of insanity, no?

Now, let's do some critical thinking. Much of our RBB service will overlap with the (A) line. Unless fulton/chambers sts are 'fake news,' the (A) goes to the 'Financial District,' no? And for those along the non-(A) RBB, ever heard of the (J)? That covers much of the remaining catchment zone.

Now, finally, let's talk clout. What has more people, the RBB corridor, or Second Avenue? How about the RBB vs Utica? Or RBB vs 3rd avenue? Or RBB vs Queens Bypass? Again, we need to see the big picture. There are areas of this city that are much, much more underserved than the RBB corridor. On all levels of planning, from train routings to long-term capital projects, we need to disassociate our thought from our feelings. Objectivity must rule, or we'll just end up with more AirTrains to nowhere. 

 

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3 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:


2, You might have more political clout to have it done if the new RBB line went to lower Manhattan to serve what some (even if WE know better) still consider to be "the financial district," particular the operators of the Casino at Aqueduct (who are from Malaysia).  

Stop with this “even if WE know better” crap already! You’ve been proven wrong about it MULTIPLE TIMES! You just cut and paste the same false, tired old explanation and unworkable service plan every time a thread about the RBB comes up.

2 hours ago, RR503 said:

 

And you two think these posts are a good use of forum bandwidth?

Thank you!

Much of the reason that those stops have such low ridership is exactly because they are skipped. Having a subway that (in a perfect world) runs every ten minutes during rush doesn't exactly inspire usage. Yes, I'm sure some people from Jamaica use the (J)(Z) to get to lower manhattan because of skip stop, but I know folks who take the (E) because it runs more frequently, more reliably, and just 'feels' faster. And anyway, you can probably claw back a few minutes lost from skip-stop if you send half of all trains full express from Bway to Marcy. I'd actually wager that the flying along the middle track there would help attract Jamaica riders more so than skip stop, which just feels slow. 

But returning to ridership. Look at the ridership gains made in Chicago when they eliminated skip-stop. We can do the same here. The current pattern privileges the needs of Jamaica residents over those of riders along the (J) line proper -- an unfair situation if I may say so. Again, greatest good for the greatest number. 

...

Now, finally, let's talk clout. What has more people, the RBB corridor, or Second Avenue? How about the RBB vs Utica? Or RBB vs 3rd avenue? Or RBB vs Queens Bypass? Again, we need to see the big picture. There are areas of this city that are much, much more underserved than the RBB corridor. On all levels of planning, from train routings to long-term capital projects, we need to disassociate our thought from our feelings. Objectivity must rule, or we'll just end up with more AirTrains to nowhere. 

 

But where is that “clout?” Where are the people along the Utica and 3rd Ave corridors pushing for a subway line along said corridors? Or for that matter, the Queens Blvd Bypass and lower 2nd Ave corridors? People along these corridors need to hold their elected officials’ (in both City and State positions) feet to the fire if it’s such a pressing issue. In the case of the Bypass, we may even have at least one elected official who seems to be going in the opposite direction when it comes to improving public transit. I speak of City Councilwoman Karen Koslowitz, who seems to want the LIRR to stop running their “noisy trains” through her constituents’ neighborhoods. If that’s indeed how she feels about running trains on the LIRR Main Line, then what are the chances of her being in favor of QBL Bypass subway trains sharing that same corridor through Forest Hills and Rego Park, much less extending the (M) or (R) onto the RBB? It’s no secret that the Queens Blvd line is the second busiest subway route in the city. But you have to have people living along that corridor who care enough to want to do something about it. At least the RBB has that Queens Public Transit Committee group advocating for its reactivation. It’s something. And there's an existing right-of-way for the (M) or (R) to use if RBB is reactivated. Yes, it's derelict from 55 years of non-use and neglect. But a Utica Ave or 3rd Ave subway or a 2nd Ave subway south of East 63rd Street would have to be built entirely underground and from scratch. Granted, some tunneling will be needed to make a functioning RBB or QB bypass line, but at least in those two cases, there is existing right-of-way.

As for the (J) , I wonder how much time would be saved if you ran either the (J) or (Z) express between Broadway Junction and Marcy? On the other hand, the stations between Broadway Jct and Myrtle are seeing an increase in ridership. And right now, they’re all-stop (J)(Z) stations, plus they have the (M) presently stopping there (until work on the Myrtle junction viaduct is completed). A (J) or (Z) express through there will result in a service cut to those four stations if the J/Z remains on its present headways. Yes, I realize it's just four stations, but those stations do have ridership that's quite a bit higher than the stations further out. Personally, I’d like to see if a full-blown peak-direction express can indeed siphon more riders off the (E) than the present skip-stop service does (which doesn’t seem to be very many, otherwise the (E) wouldn’t be so packed). But I think you’d need for the (Z) to run the entire AM and PM rush periods (if not all day on weekdays) and for the combined J/Z to run more than the current 12 tph for just one hour each rush period for the express to be worth trying.

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue
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3 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Stop with this “even if WE know better” crap already! You’ve been proven wrong about it MULTIPLE TIMES! You just cut and paste the same false, tired old explanation and unworkable service plan every time a thread about the RBB comes up.

But where is that “clout?” Where are the people along the Utica and 3rd Ave corridors pushing for a subway line along said corridors? Or for that matter, the Queens Blvd Bypass and lower 2nd Ave corridors? People along these corridors need to hold their elected officials’ (in both City and State positions) feet to the fire if it’s such a pressing issue.

 They would love better service, but they don't request it because they know it will be unanswered or will take forever.

 At least the RBB has that Queens Public Transit Committee group advocating for its reactivation. It’s something. And there's an existing right-of-way for the (M) or (R) to use if RBB is reactivated. Yes, it's derelict from 55 years of non-use and neglect. But a Utica Ave or 3rd Ave subway or a 2nd Ave subway south of East 63rd Street would have to be built entirely underground and from scratch. Granted, some tunneling will be needed to make a functioning RBB or QB bypass line, but at least in those two cases, there is existing right-of-way.

The (M) is a part-time line on QBL, and extending it will increase costs. Before you say this is pointless, the MTA is a agency of mismanagement, so service cuts would go there fast. The (R) is too long. The reason why QPTC is going on this is because with Queensway potentially on the horizon, they need to act now if they want RBB service. 

 

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51 minutes ago, Art Vandelay said:

I get the impression that the Queens Public Transit Committee is nothing more than a small group of drivers who don't want the Q52/Q53 bus lanes to exist. 

Who knows,  I just know that when we bring RBB up, I'm on team subway no Matter what. Also, I admit that it would give me an excuse to take the (A) to school because the  (J)(Z) Skip Stop service can be a piece of crap at times, ESPCIALLY in the morning rush when I'm just trying to get to school on time

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8 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Stop with this “even if WE know better” crap already! You’ve been proven wrong about it MULTIPLE TIMES! You just cut and paste the same false, tired old explanation and unworkable service plan every time a thread about the RBB comes up.

But where is that “clout?” Where are the people along the Utica and 3rd Ave corridors pushing for a subway line along said corridors? Or for that matter, the Queens Blvd Bypass and lower 2nd Ave corridors? People along these corridors need to hold their elected officials’ (in both City and State positions) feet to the fire if it’s such a pressing issue. In the case of the Bypass, we may even have at least one elected official who seems to be going in the opposite direction when it comes to improving public transit. I speak of City Councilwoman Karen Koslowitz, who seems to want the LIRR to stop running their “noisy trains” through her constituents’ neighborhoods. If that’s indeed how she feels about running trains on the LIRR Main Line, then what are the chances of her being in favor of QBL Bypass subway trains sharing that same corridor through Forest Hills and Rego Park, much less extending the (M) or (R) onto the RBB? It’s no secret that the Queens Blvd line is the second busiest subway route in the city. But you have to have people living along that corridor who care enough to want to do something about it. At least the RBB has that Queens Public Transit Committee group advocating for its reactivation. It’s something. And there's an existing right-of-way for the (M) or (R) to use if RBB is reactivated. Yes, it's derelict from 55 years of non-use and neglect. But a Utica Ave or 3rd Ave subway or a 2nd Ave subway south of East 63rd Street would have to be built entirely underground and from scratch. Granted, some tunneling will be needed to make a functioning RBB or QB bypass line, but at least in those two cases, there is existing right-of-way.

As for the (J) , I wonder how much time would be saved if you ran either the (J) or (Z) express between Broadway Junction and Marcy? On the other hand, the stations between Broadway Jct and Myrtle are seeing an increase in ridership. And right now, they’re all-stop (J)(Z) stations, plus they have the (M) presently stopping there (until work on the Myrtle junction viaduct is completed). A (J) or (Z) express through there will result in a service cut to those four stations if the J/Z remains on its present headways. Yes, I realize it's just four stations, but those stations do have ridership that's quite a bit higher than the stations further out. Personally, I’d like to see if a full-blown peak-direction express can indeed siphon more riders off the (E) than the present skip-stop service does (which doesn’t seem to be very many, otherwise the (E) wouldn’t be so packed). But I think you’d need for the (Z) to run the entire AM and PM rush periods (if not all day on weekdays) and for the combined J/Z to run more than the current 12 tph for just one hour each rush period for the express to be worth trying.

I get that the (M) always ran to Middle Village and 10 people outside the (MTA) felt a way about it possibly being renamed (V), but given your express setup, wouldn’t it be easier to do that if (M) ran to Jamaica during peak so it or (J) can do directional express, and send (Z) to Middle Village during the same period?

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As far as the (J) goes, skip-stop as currently implemented is the poor man's peak express. The RPA has been calling for the retrofitting of a third express track all the way to the subway portion of Archer for a while now. Once you have that, you get to have peak (Z) express and a fully local (J) , which skip-stop currently tries to make up for.

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10 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

As far as the (J) goes, skip-stop as currently implemented is the poor man's peak express. The RPA has been calling for the retrofitting of a third express track all the way to the subway portion of Archer for a while now. Once you have that, you get to have peak (Z) express and a fully local (J) , which skip-stop currently tries to make up for.

Since the current express track ends at B-way Junction, why skip-stop instead of running (J) express between Marcy and B-Way, then local to the end, with (Z) doing local stops before with (M) , or is that a switching nightmare because of Myrtle Av?

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10 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

As far as the (J) goes, skip-stop as currently implemented is the poor man's peak express. The RPA has been calling for the retrofitting of a third express track all the way to the subway portion of Archer for a while now. Once you have that, you get to have peak (Z) express and a fully local (J) , which skip-stop currently tries to make up for.

I'm of two hearts on this plan. On one hand, the (E) needs relief, and Jamaica better subway service. On the other, you're furthering the underservice of communities between Jamaica and Myrtle, unless you add some express stops in between -- no small undertaking given the lack of provisions for any. If you don't add express stations, the williamsburg bridge's capacity constraints disallows any further addition of service much beyond those 12 tph, all but locking in the current 6 tph service. 

18 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Since the current express track ends at B-way Junction, why skip-stop instead of running (J) express between Marcy and B-Way, then local to the end, with (Z) doing local stops before with (M) , or is that a switching nightmare because of Myrtle Av?

If you're suggesting running (J) local from Bway to Marcy, and the (Z) express, I would agree in a perfect world. That said, I was thinking about this since it was brought up earlier, and it occurred to me that train spacing would get weird. It takes 8 mins to go from Bway to Myrtle via local, and about 4.5 via express. If trains are running their current 5 minute headways during rush, your express is now only 1.5 mins behind your local. Problem is, that's about the time saving express gains you from Myrtle to Marcy, so one of those trains is gonna be delayed at that interlocking while the other makes its way through/into Marcy. Then, you'll have 2 trains spaced close together over the bridge, down Centre street, and into Broad, where fumigation time is bound to delay the trailing train even more.

Thoughts? 

Edited by RR503

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8 minutes ago, RR503 said:

I'm of two hearts on this plan. On one hand, the (E) needs relief, and Jamaica better subway service. On the other, you're furthering the underservice of communities between Jamaica and Myrtle, unless you add some express stops in between -- no small undertaking given the lack of provisions for any. If you don't add express stations, the williamsburg bridge's capacity constraints disallows any further addition of service much beyond those 12 tph, all but locking in the current 6 tph service. 

I can see where you're coming from. On the other hand, the full-stop (J) is unbearably slow, mostly because the stations are so close together. I would not support the ending of skip-stop without at least some stop rationalization (knock two down, get one ADA-accessible stop in the middle to replace it)

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53 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Since the current express track ends at B-way Junction, why skip-stop instead of running (J) express between Marcy and B-Way, then local to the end, with (Z) doing local stops before with (M) , or is that a switching nightmare because of Myrtle Av?

The locigal way to fix that is in this article http://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/2016/11/fixing-the-myrtle-broadway-problem/ 

However, let's not get off topic 

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There's a much simpler fix there - run Middle Village-bound trains via the upper level platform by building a new connecting track over Lewis Avenue, and Manhattan-bound trains via the lower level. This wouldn't require reconstruction of either the Myrtle or Broadway viaducts, and takes advantage of the existing grade-separated junction between the Myrtle-Broadway connector and the Myrtle Ave el. No new platform construction is required and no land has to be taken along Broadway between Flushing and Myrtle (where the el runs quite close to buildings).

To answer the above question - which I think proposed J trains run express the whole way from the bridge to Broadway Junction, while Z trains run local - which doesn't work for similar reasons, since evenly spaced trains coming off the bridge would arrive at the same time at Broadway Junction.

Regarding RBB - I don't think even if everyone from the Archer Ave Lines took the J that there would be capacity for another route on the QB lines, since so much QBX crowding comes from a) stops after 71st and b) transfers from local trains closer than Continental.

Edited by quadcorder

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