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2 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

The people of the rockaways are asking for it 

The people of the Rockways where transit ridership is the lowest in the city for any subway stations, where hardly any people live because the catchment area of the subway stations is mostly ocean? Give me a break. We have better things to spend money on.

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3 minutes ago, LGA Link N train said:

OK so now that we covered the fact that the area is not a transit desert, it's still has some potential to be a rail. Let's not forget, it may be useless now but ridership as a potential to see increase whint years. (Basically the story of the (L) train)

Except (L) goes to Manhattan, and Williamsburg was a cheap hood right close to Midtown. Bushwick got play because it’s next to Williamsburg.

i don’t see Ozone Park doing better because RBB gets connected to the overcapacity QBL local when that trip will take longer and have more capacity issues on the express than just riding the (A) through Brooklyn as has been done for almost 70 years.

RBB, if it’s reactivated, makes more sense as a Bronx to LGA to JFK crosstown LRT with spurs to Hempstead and Coney Island/Bay Ridge/Staten Island to reduce travel on the Belt/SSP, GCP/NSP and the Van Wyck. But even then, there’s more important things to spend the money on.

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1 hour ago, LGA Link N train said:

OK so now that we covered the fact that the area is not a transit desert, it's still has some potential to be a rail. Let's not forget, it may be useless now but ridership as a potential to see increase whint years. (Basically the story of the (L) train)

The L goes through neighborhoods which are much closer to Manhattan and had a much higher potential for growth/gentrification. The L also actually goes to manhattan and had the potential to grow in capacity. The Queens Boulevard line has no capacity to take in  these riders either. 

 

1 hour ago, D to 96 St said:

It may not be needed now, but the Rockaways will demand for it like 50+ yrs from now. Plus Arverne and  other neighborhoods are currently being developed.

Most of the city needs more transportation TODAY. In 50 years, they'll all still need more capacity than the Rockaways will. 

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3 hours ago, D to 96 St said:

It may not be needed now, but the Rockaways will demand for it like 50+ yrs from now. Plus Arverne and  other neighborhoods are currently being developed.

 

21 minutes ago, Art Vandelay said:

Gentrifying the Rockaways doesn't make the RBL more feasible. There really isn't that much land there to provide enough population to justify more trains. 

LOL@ Gentrification in the Rockaways. That's a good one... What exactly is supposed to be gentrifying down there? The areas to the west without subways are expensive or well established already.  There is nothing to gentrify in Neponsit, which is basically expensive multi-million dollar houses with private beach property.  Breezy Point is pretty much a cooperative at the western end of the island, so nothing there either, as those people drive or drive to the QM16 express bus, and Belle Harbor is mainly middle class. 

Where there is subway access is mainly pretty ugly because of the overhead subway and those housing projects aren't going anywhere.  Even with the few developments like Averne by the Sea, you'd need several of those before you'd see any difference, not to mention how far out it is.

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2 hours ago, Deucey said:

Except (L) goes to Manhattan, and Williamsburg was a cheap hood right close to Midtown. Bushwick got play because it’s next to Williamsburg.

i don’t see Ozone Park doing better because RBB gets connected to the overcapacity QBL local when that trip will take longer and have more capacity issues on the express than just riding the (A) through Brooklyn as has been done for almost 70 years.

RBB, if it’s reactivated, makes more sense as a Bronx to LGA to JFK crosstown LRT with spurs to Hempstead and Coney Island/Bay Ridge/Staten Island to reduce travel on the Belt/SSP, GCP/NSP and the Van Wyck. But even then, there’s more important things to spend the money on.

The QBL goes to LIC and Connects all lines in Queens  (and the Mall) There is more benefit than just a trip to Manhattan if the RBB is reactivated.

1 hour ago, Art Vandelay said:

The L goes through neighborhoods which are much closer to Manhattan and had a much higher potential for growth/gentrification. The L also actually goes to manhattan and had the potential to grow in capacity. The Queens Boulevard line has no capacity to take in  these riders either. 

 

Most of the city needs more transportation TODAY. In 50 years, they'll all still need more capacity than the Rockaways will. 

The QBL has capacity I ride it every day I've been on virtually empty (E) and (F) cars.

30 minutes ago, Art Vandelay said:

Gentrifying the Rockaways doesn't make the RBL more feasible. There really isn't that much land there to provide enough population to justify more trains. 

There is a lot of undeveloped land between beach 60 and beach 36th street they could line the Rockaway Freeway with high rises and advertise the ocean and views of the metro area and quick access to JFK and if the RBB is built quick access to LGA as well.

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2 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

There is a lot of undeveloped land between beach 60 and beach 36th street they could line the Rockaway Freeway with high rises and advertise the ocean and views of the metro area and quick access to JFK and if the RBB is built quick access to LGA as well.

If all of it were to be fully developed to the greatest extent possible, The Rockaways might come close to justifying the service they have today. 

2 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

The QBL goes to LIC and Connects all lines in Queens  (and the Mall) There is more benefit than just a trip to Manhattan if the RBB is reactivated.

And for that very market... We have the Q52/Q53!

2 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

The QBL has capacity I ride it every day I've been on virtually empty (E) and (F) cars.

Empty E and F? Are you doing a stand-up routine?

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Honestly, status quo makes a lot of sense. At the moment, there is no need to build a rail line nor a High Line-style park that is very inaccessible from the major corridors.

My current understanding is that the priority for Queens expansion post-SAS is

  1. QBL Bypass
  2. Northern Blvd
  3. (E)(F) extension eastward
  4. Jewel Ave
  5. (N)(W) to Laguardia if NIMBYs ever change their mind
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3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

 

LOL@ Gentrification in the Rockaways. That's a good one... What exactly is supposed to be gentrifying down there? The areas to the west without subways are expensive or well established already.  There is nothing to gentrify in Neponsit, which is basically expensive multi-million dollar houses with private beach property.  Breezy Point is pretty much a cooperative at the western end of the island, so nothing there either, as those people drive or drive to the QM16 express bus, and Belle Harbor is mainly middle class. 

Where there is subway access is mainly pretty ugly because of the overhead subway and those housing projects aren't going anywhere.  Even with the few developments like Averne by the Sea, you'd need several of those before you'd see any difference, not to mention how far out it is.

Not to mention, developers, renters, and buyers now have to eat pretty painful post-Sandy insurance premiums.

48 minutes ago, D to 96 St said:

Would sending the (R) up the LIE be even more justifiable than this? Eastern Queens is a much bigger transit desert than the tiny-micro area that RBB runs thru. 

Problems with the LIE include where to put it, because there's no room anywhere near the LIE, and the fact that no major destinations lie on the LIE itself. Even the big destinations that do do not have entrance facing the LIE for fairly obvious reasons.

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I've come to the point that RBB is not worth it at all at this point. I mean, Q52/53 bus service is 20 minutes to the (M)(R). And the (M)(R) also would take another 20 mins to get to Manhattan. So you'd end up with 40 min- the same amount of time these hipsters expect to get to Midtown. The homes are no more than 10 min walking distance from the subway.

But JFK had good subway access with a slew of buses and the (A)(E)(J)(Z), plus the AirTrain. LGA doesn't have this. Why don't we extend the (N)(W) over there rather than serve some folks that ain't thankful for the (J)(Z), plus the Q52/53 SBS. If this isn't enough, then why not increase bus service. 

Unless the Rockaways suddenly explodes in population and there is heavy demand, I don't think we should build it. 

Let's not argue and rehash the same thing over and over again. There are many more places in Eastern Queens that need subway access.

 

Edited by D to 96 St
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1 hour ago, Coney Island Av said:

But JFK had good subway access with a slew of buses and the (A)(E)(J)(Z), plus the AirTrain. LGA doesn't have this. Why don't we extend the (N)(W) over there rather than serve some folks that ain't thankful for the (J)(Z), plus the Q52/53 SBS. If this isn't enough, then why not increase bus service. 

The (J) sucks 

2 hours ago, Art Vandelay said:

And for that very market... We have the Q52/Q53!

We know that NYC Bus service slow.

2 hours ago, Art Vandelay said:

Empty E and F? Are you doing a stand-up routine?

Try riding outside of rush hour

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21 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

 

We know that NYC Bus service slow.

Try riding outside of rush hour

Actually, the Q52/Q53 are pretty damn fast. It is a stunning improvement. 

Yes. Every line has capacity outside of rush hour. But what is the point of building a connection that can't possibly be used in the peak or the shoulder? 

 

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1 hour ago, Art Vandelay said:

Actually, the Q52/Q53 are pretty damn fast. It is a stunning improvement. 

Yes. Every line has capacity outside of rush hour. But what is the point of building a connection that can't possibly be used in the peak or the shoulder? 

 

Of course it can be used, the Local tracks have capacity and it would reduce the delay into 71st Ave. In the peak of rush hour there is congestion on the Express tracks, so the people can just stay on the local and may get to their destination quicker.

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34 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Did we debate the rpa 4th plan saying the rbb can co exist with the queensway?

P157

http://fourthplan.org/

http://lab.rpa.org/fourth-plan-queensway/

We did, I think it's on page 16 and 17 

13 hours ago, Caelestor said:

Honestly, status quo makes a lot of sense. At the moment, there is no need to build a rail line nor a High Line-style park that is very inaccessible from the major corridors.

My current understanding is that the priority for Queens expansion post-SAS is

  1. QBL Bypass
  2. Northern Blvd
  3. (E)(F) extension eastward
  4. Jewel Ave
  5. (N)(W) to Laguardia if NIMBYs ever change their mind

QBL Bypass, (E)(F) Eastern extension, and the (N)(W) LGA Extensions are all feasible in a pre-SAS time line 

 

Edited by LGA Link N train
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.

1 hour ago, Coney Island Av said:

The only benefits of RBB, if built, would be:

-reducing the conga line at 71 Av

-allowing the (G) to be reextended to 71 Av

-crosstown line

I'm sort of conflicted over whether to build the line or not. 

Well you could also supplement Q52/Q53 SBS.

And you forgot one more. I justifies Woodhaven Blvd Becoming an Express station AND it also justifies the QBL Bypass to be built

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9 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Of course it can be used, the Local tracks have capacity and it would reduce the delay into 71st Ave. In the peak of rush hour there is congestion on the Express tracks, so the people can just stay on the local and may get to their destination quicker.

No one — and I mean no one — will stay on a local for that long. If express platforms at Woodhaven are built, they’ll dump there. If not, they’ll dump at Roosevelt like everyone else. It’s a psychological thing. Express trains feel faster than locals, even if they aren’t. There being congestion isn’t gonna change their minds. If you thing congestion/crowding will change people’s minds, you’re wrong. Look at the Lex. 

2 hours ago, Coney Island Av said:

The only benefits of RBB, if built, would be:

-reducing the conga line at 71 Av

-allowing the (G) to be reextended to 71 Av

-crosstown line

I'm sort of conflicted over whether to build the line or not. 

Lol do you not see how your second point negates your first? 

Lemme resolve this conflict for you: NO. 

1 hour ago, LGA Link N train said:

.

Well you could also supplement Q52/Q53 SBS.

And you forgot one more. I justifies Woodhaven Blvd Becoming an Express station AND it also justifies the QBL Bypass to be built

Yes, because building subway lines as supplements to buses is a really good idea. Definitely indicative of a lot of demand. 

Both of things are already justified. You do not need to dangerously overload QB to “justify” them. In fact, they should be done with money not being spent on this flight of fancy. 

Look, I respect y’alls opinions, but this is getting ridiculous. Myself, bob, art, and myriad others have given you reason after reason after reason why this shouldn’t be built — all based on evidence — yet you all ignore us and try to furnish some horsesh*t to support an idea of yours. Don’t do that. If you want a future beyond foaming and playing ReThink, you need, need to be able to see when you’re wrong.

We’ve given stats. We’ve given operational arguments. We’ve given more pressing investment alternatives. Yet you can’t stop wet dreaming of a train trundling through forest park so you ingnore us.

Planning is done as follows: a problem is identified, prioritized, and then solved. You’re finding solutions, and then furnishing problems. Don’t. Do. That. 

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20 hours ago, LGA Link N train said:

Would it be possible to generify the Rockaways then along with long island  

No, Yuppies would want to be closer to the Babylon Branch for direct service in and out of Manhattan. The Far Rockaway Branch of the LIRR isn't frequent enough for them to start moving down to the Peninsula in droves, and the (A) takes too long to get to Midtown from Mott Avenue for the bar hoppers and workers.  The folks living on Five Towns don't want their towns to be gentrified, they rather see it happen in places like Hempstead, Hicksville, or even the area around Nassau Coliseum.

Edited by NY1635
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