Rockaway Beach Branch

[NewFlyer 230]

15 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

So much for #yanggang 🤬 the #yanggang 🖕

 

 

 

I knew as soon as they added SBS to Woodhaven Blvd it was a rap for any new subway line along that old LIRR ROW. 
Building a new line would have definitely been expensive but worth it. We have plenty of parks in NYC how many more do we really need. They just opened up the Highline, Brooklyn Bridge Park, Hunters Point South Park, Domino Park there is a new pier park opening up around Chelsea I forgot which number it is and they fixed up several parks within the last decade and a half.

Maybe they should add a stop on the Atlantic Terminal branch of the LIRR at Woodhaven Blvd and consider extending the LIRR from Atlantic Terminal to perhaps the World Trade Center or somewhere around that area in lower Manhattan. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

4 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

The “168 St” program was updated I believe sometime back in 2017/2018 before the R179’s started running on the . I remember the updated “168th St/Manhattan” destination show up on the R160’s before they went back to the . I guess they just wanted to indicate what borough the train terminates in since the Bronx and Queens also have a 168th street. 

One program I’m annoyed the MTA changed was the “Lower E. Side-2nd Ave” to just “2nd Ave”. I just find some of these program updates unnecessary. The  had its original “Flushing-Main St” program changed to just “Main St”. I just don’t see the purpose in shortening it. 

Ah, the MTA. They’ll fix what isn’t broken, like these electronic destination signs. In fact, in these three examples, they’ve reverted back to what they used to call the stations, making it pointless to have added the neighborhoods in the first place. 

But fix up a decrepit rail line and connect it to the subway? “Fuggeddaboudit!”

59 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I knew as soon as they added SBS to Woodhaven Blvd it was a rap for any new subway line along that old LIRR ROW. 
Building a new line would have definitely been expensive but worth it. We have plenty of parks in NYC how many more do we really need. They just opened up the Highline, Brooklyn Bridge Park, Hunters Point South Park, Domino Park there is a new pier park opening up around Chelsea I forgot which number it is and they fixed up several parks within the last decade and a half.

Maybe they should add a stop on the Atlantic Terminal branch of the LIRR at Woodhaven Blvd and consider extending the LIRR from Atlantic Terminal to perhaps the World Trade Center or somewhere around that area in lower Manhattan. 

 

[bobtehpanda]

4 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I knew as soon as they added SBS to Woodhaven Blvd it was a rap for any new subway line along that old LIRR ROW. 
Building a new line would have definitely been expensive but worth it. We have plenty of parks in NYC how many more do we really need. They just opened up the Highline, Brooklyn Bridge Park, Hunters Point South Park, Domino Park there is a new pier park opening up around Chelsea I forgot which number it is and they fixed up several parks within the last decade and a half.

Maybe they should add a stop on the Atlantic Terminal branch of the LIRR at Woodhaven Blvd and consider extending the LIRR from Atlantic Terminal to perhaps the World Trade Center or somewhere around that area in lower Manhattan. 

This plan existed but was chucked out of earlier capital plans because they didn't have money to build both LIRR to WTC and East Side Access.

[mrsman]

Deactivated railroads either stay abandoned or become trails.  Its a sad commentary.

I credit the city for buying the corridor, when LIRR wanted to sell it in the 1950s.  I also credit the city for running subway trains on the southern part of the corridor and into the Rockaways.  In retrospect, it seems like it would have been a lot better, if the city ran the subway from Whitepot Jct to the Rockaways with transfers to  and  .  (Probably also a track connection to  so that the trains can reach other yards for service).  In that way, you wouldn't have this abandoned section in the first place.

But the city did not see the value of a N-S Queens link.  They decided to connect it to Manhattan in the easiest way possible, so connected to (A).  And while there were later plans to have the line connect to the Queens bypass and 63rd, the right of way were not availabe upon the initial purchase of the trackway, when LIRR was still a private railroad.  LIRR was not selling any of the main line right of way between LIC and Whitepot Jct, when they were ready to sell the Rockaway branch.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

It’s true. We certainly have rail lines we’ve lost to trails, development or that stay abandoned. Lines that might have come in handy today. Lines like the old NY Central Putnam Line or the NY, Westchester & Boston, both of which could have been easy, affordable ways for Bronx residents to reverse-commute into Westchester County. Or the LIRR Whitestone Branch, which could have been the game-changer for transit that Northeast Queens needs. To the City’s credit, they did purchase the section of the Westchester south of the city line. That line is now the  train between Dyre Avenue and East 180th St. But it’s no help for a reverse commute into Getty Square, Yonkers, or New Rochelle. 

I’d hate to see the same thing happen to the Rockaway Beach branch too. If it becomes a trail or a High Line wanna-be, like the QueensWay people and Yang want, that’s it! It’s gone. Without it, the best that can happen is physically separated bus lanes on Woodhaven Blvd. Even that probably won’t lessen the heavy (and aggressive) car traffic on Woodhaven Blvd.

Edited April 29, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[BreeddekalbL]

Apparently you don't need transit 

yes we do goddamnit

[Lawrence St]

3 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Apparently you don't need transit 

yes we do goddamnit

The worse by far is SecondAvSagas, all he does is complain about the lack of transit but then complains about the city trying to make better transit. You can never win with these politics lmao.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

In fairness, the City aren't really trying to make better transit, certainly as far as the subway is concerned. The BQX was a half-hearted attempt that was dismissed as more of a gift to Brooklyn waterfront developers than an integral part of the City's mass transit. Then, after the backlash, they didn't propose anything else. Say what you will about him, but at least Bloomberg actually pushed for - and put money towards - the  Hudson Yards subway extension. Granted, it opened well after he left office, but it showed what happens when there's a will. I was hoping de Blasio might try to do the same with putting City money towards a subway extension in Brooklyn or SAS Phase 2, especially with East Harlem being part of then-Council Speaker Melissa Mark-Viverito's district. But no, all I heard was crickets from both the Mayor and Mark-Viverito. Beyond disappointing.

Also in fairness to Ben Kaback (Second Ave Sagas), there's been plenty of questioning on this site about whether or not the rebuilding of the Rockaway Beach Line is a worthy project, when the City has so many other areas that are in need of better subway or transit service. Go back just a couple pages in this thread and you’ll find it. Think about this, look how the Brighton Line and the Franklin Shuttle fell into a state of decrepitude by the 1970s/80s and that was with both lines still being in active use. Whereas RBB has sat there unused for well over a half a century. Nature has been reclaiming it back since at least the 70s. It took years to rebuild Brighton starting in the mid-80s. Even into the 90s, the stations were still in terrible shape. The Shuttle had to be shut down completely to be rebuilt in the late 90s. Think about how long it's going to take to rebuild RBB between Liberty Ave and Rego Park, given that a train hasn't operated on that route for well over half a century.

Edited April 30, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Lawrence St]

17 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

In fairness, the City aren't really trying to make better transit, certainly as far as the subway is concerned. The BQX was a half-hearted attempt that was dismissed as more of a gift to Brooklyn waterfront developers than an integral part of the City's mass transit. Then, after the backlash, they didn't propose anything else. Say what you will about him, but at least Bloomberg actually pushed for - and put money towards - the  Hudson Yards subway extension. Granted, it opened well after he left office, but it showed what happens when there's a will. I was hoping de Blasio might try to do the same with putting City money towards a subway extension in Brooklyn or SAS Phase 2, especially with East Harlem being part of then-Council Speaker Melissa Mark-Viverito's district. But no, all I heard was crickets from them.

Also in fairness to Ben Kaback (Second Ave Sagas), there's been plenty of questioning on this site about whether or not the rebuilding of the Rockaway Beach Line is a worthy project, when the City has so many other areas that are in need of better subway or transit service. Think about this, look how the Brighton Line and the Franklin Shuttle fell into a state of decrepitude by the 1970s/80s and that was with both lines still being in active use. Whereas RBB has sat there unused for well over a half a century. It took years to rebuild Brighton starting in the mid-80s. Even into the 90s, the stations were still in terrible shape. The Shuttle had to be shut down completely to be rebuilt in the late 90s. Think about how long it's going to take to rebuild RBB between Liberty Ave and Rego Park, given that a train hasn't operated on that route for well over half a century.

You can blame that on the fact that the city let people illegally expand their homes onto ROW. Now its going to be lawsuit after lawsuit to restore the ROW.

The city should have never let the line get that bad in the first place, I also blame NYCT for not taking care of the line that they fully purchased. They did that same s*** with the Dyre Av line and now look where we are.

[Trainmaster5]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

You can blame that on the fact that the city let people illegally expand their homes onto ROW. Now its going to be lawsuit after lawsuit to restore the ROW.

The city should have never let the line get that bad in the first place, I also blame NYCT for not taking care of the line that they fully purchased. They did that same s*** with the Dyre Av line and now look where we are.

Are you sure that the City of New York purchased the whole Rockaway Beach Branch or just the portion south of Liberty Junction/ Rockaway Blvd station ? If the city purchased the whole RBB the northern section would end up being an elongated Franklin Shuttle ending at Whitepot junction with the LIRR mainline. If the LIRR thought the RBB was a financial loser wouldn't the same apply to the NYCTA ? The City purchased the present  line from the Westchester County border southward AFAIK because they had no legal authority to purchase the northern section beyond the city limits. Just my thoughts. Carry on.

[Lawrence St]

34 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Are you sure that the City of New York purchased the whole Rockaway Beach Branch or just the portion south of Liberty Junction/ Rockaway Blvd station ? If the city purchased the whole RBB the northern section would end up being an elongated Franklin Shuttle ending at Whitepot junction with the LIRR mainline. If the LIRR thought the RBB was a financial loser wouldn't the same apply to the NYCTA ? The City purchased the present  line from the Westchester County border southward AFAIK because they had no legal authority to purchase the northern section beyond the city limits. Just my thoughts. Carry on.

IIRC yes the authority purchased the whole line up to where it connected to the Mainline. I believe it was a joint purchase by the city and the authority, but the city saw no viable ridership north of Rockaway Blvd at the time because of how much LIRR reduced the service. There was also the issue that QBL didn't have the capacity for a new line at the time, so you would've had a shuttle going to the middle of nowhere.

And yes, while they had no legal obligation to purchase the line to New Rochelle, it could've benefited us today.

[Lex]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

IIRC yes the authority purchased the whole line up to where it connected to the Mainline. I believe it was a joint purchase by the city and the authority, but the city saw no viable ridership north of Rockaway Blvd at the time because of how much LIRR reduced the service. There was also the issue that QBL didn't have the capacity for a new line at the time, so you would've had a shuttle going to the middle of nowhere.

And yes, while they had no legal obligation to purchase the line to New Rochelle, it could've benefited us today.

Obligation and authority aren't even remotely the same. The former is an issue of will while the latter is an issue of ability.

New Rochelle is outside of NYC.

[Lawrence St]

20 minutes ago, Lex said:

Obligation and authority aren't even remotely the same. The former is an issue of will while the latter is an issue of ability.

New Rochelle is outside of NYC.

Yes but I will reiterate my point from earlier. BART & WMATA serve counties (even states) outside of their service zone with no issue. How come when it comes to us, we are so hesitant to even think about extending a line into Westchester or Long Island?

[Deucey]

 

4 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Yes but I will reiterate my point from earlier. BART & WMATA serve counties (even states) outside of their service zone with no issue. How come when it comes to us, we are so hesitant to even think about extending a line into Westchester or Long Island?

BART is an authority created by the State of California whose mission was to create a rapid transit system to relieve congestion in the SF Bay and San Pablo Bay Areas, but counties had to opt in. That's why BART doesn't go to Marin and Napa Counties, and barely into San Mateo County (Daly City Station is roughly a block away from the SF County Line) until it agreed to join the tax regime - which is how the extension to SFO was finally built.

And it wasn't until Santa Clara County agreed to join that the San Jose extension was built.

WMATA was chartered by Congress as an Interstate Compact after DC, MD, and VA agreed the need for a unified rapid transit authority in the DMV.

NYCTA was just a thing created by NYS to fix deficits after NYC bought the subways and buses from the private sector, but it (the subway) was built by franchise agreements with the City. The City didn't and doesn't extend to Westchester or Nassau Counties.  was just created to run commuter services from those non-NYC counties to NYC, and took over NYCTA to keep Mayor Lindsay from taking Triboro Bridge Authority tolls from NYS.

So a regional transportation management solution was never the plan in NYC - as it was in the DMV and SF Bay; it was all about controlling money and reminding folks who was "in charge".

Doesn't mean it can't change, but given how NYS has always been about people with egos reminding everyone "who's in charge here", it'll be very hard to do because it requires mindset changes - and trying that resulted in Andy Byford going back to London.

Edited May 1, 2021 by Deucey
Grammar

[GojiMet86]

8 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

The worse by far is SecondAvSagas, all he does is complain about the lack of transit but then complains about the city trying to make better transit. You can never win with these politics lmao.

Wait......what? How did you get the idea that Vanshnookenragen or Benjamin were against transit? In those tweets, Vanshnookenragen clearly means that the QueensWay park is a waste. Dude has been trying to advocate for a hybrid subway line AND park here: https://twitter.com/thequeenslink

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Yes but I will reiterate my point from earlier. BART & WMATA serve counties (even states) outside of their service zone with no issue. How come when it comes to us, we are so hesitant to even think about extending a line into Westchester or Long Island?

at least in the case of Long Island you got a whole lot of mileage of Queens to get through before you're even close to the county line.

Practically speaking, you would be looking at roughly an hour of journey time from the county line to Midtown, an even longer subway ride would probably not be well utilized.

As far as Westchester is concerned, the lines that are already close to the county line are those that are directly parallel to Metro North service.

Edited May 1, 2021 by bobtehpanda

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Yes but I will reiterate my point from earlier. BART & WMATA serve counties (even states) outside of their service zone with no issue. How come when it comes to us, we are so hesitant to even think about extending a line into Westchester or Long Island?

Also, I would hardly call WMATA a good example of a transit agency, given that the horse trading in the DMV makes NYC look like a festive brunch.

NYC maintenance was slipping in the 2000s and 2010s, but it's like WMATA where someone died from smoke inhalation, and where the feds found rot so bad they literally asked Congress for jurisdiction to try and fix it.

 

[Lawrence St]

12 hours ago, GojiMet86 said:

Wait......what? How did you get the idea that Vanshnookenragen or Benjamin were against transit? In those tweets, Vanshnookenragen clearly means that the QueensWay park is a waste. Dude has been trying to advocate for a hybrid subway line AND park here: https://twitter.com/thequeenslink

I misread his initial tweet I thought vanshnookraggen was saying the Queensway was better. 

SAS just complains about everything with no solution or explanation. For example, he says he wants better transit but then calls the express buses and the ferries waste of money. 

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I misread his initial tweet I thought vanshnookraggen was saying the Queensway was better. 

SAS just complains about everything with no solution or explanation. For example, he says he wants better transit but then calls the express buses and the ferries waste of money. 

Unless you want to spin welfare for people who are on average wealthier than the rest of the city to begin with, express bus and ferries have higher subsidy per person than the subways and local buses and that's just a fact. The money would go farther stretching it on local services.

<takes out chair and waits for popcorn>

[Lex]

53 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Unless you want to spin welfare for people who are on average wealthier than the rest of the city to begin with, express bus and ferries have higher subsidy per person than the subways and local buses and that's just a fact. The money would go farther stretching it on local services.

<takes out chair and waits for popcorn>

Their poor fare integration does little to help the situation. (The peaky nature of the express bus network -- even with its greater reach and off-peak/reverse-peak routes -- makes what could actually work to its benefit worse.)

[Trainmaster5]

19 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

IIRC yes the authority purchased the whole line up to where it connected to the Mainline. I believe it was a joint purchase by the city and the authority, but the city saw no viable ridership north of Rockaway Blvd at the time because of how much LIRR reduced the service. There was also the issue that QBL didn't have the capacity for a new line at the time, so you would've had a shuttle going to the middle of nowhere.

And yes, while they had no legal obligation to purchase the line to New Rochelle, it could've benefited us today.

I'm still of the opinion that the City, and not NYCT, owned the entire RBB. NYCT utilizes the southern portion of the branch obviously but I was under the impression that the City, not NYCT, controlled the branch from Liberty Junction northward. IIRC it was the local politicians who were against the reactivation of the northern part of the RBB. I'm willing to bet that the NYCT is not responsible for the section north of Liberty Junction and has never had any of it's equipment traverse the trackage up there. Remember that the southern part got subway service to the Rockaways while the LIRR still ran down to the Ozone Park station on the northern section until 1962. Ultimately what I'm getting at is that the City of New York has jurisdiction over the property now in that area but the NYCT has no legal rights up there. The issue is with the local politicians, the residents, and the City government. Hope I stated my opinion clearly this time.  Carry on. 

[Lawrence St]

3 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Unless you want to spin welfare for people who are on average wealthier than the rest of the city to begin with, express bus and ferries have higher subsidy per person than the subways and local buses and that's just a fact. The money would go farther stretching it on local services.

<takes out chair and waits for popcorn>

It may be a fact but another fact is the ferry and express buses run places the subway and bus doesn't. Politics like what SAS is saying is if he doesn't use it, then it must be useless. @Via Garibaldi 8 thoughts?

Edited May 1, 2021 by Lawrence St

[bobtehpanda]

46 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

It may be a fact but another fact is the ferry and express buses run places the subway and bus doesn't. Politics like what SAS is saying is if he doesn't use it, then it must be useless. <Not tagging twice> thoughts?

Let me fill in the blanks here.

• "It's an essential service for people far away from the subway"
• "Rich people deserve services too, they pay taxes"
• "It gets people out of cars, can't we just leave it at that?"
• "It's doing something"

Whew, saved us all a few pages of the same old same old.

Just so we don't get it twisted, fast buses linking regional centers with limited stops, is a fine service proposition on its own. (This is basically what the express bus is, although entirely focused on Manhattan.) I just have a problem with the needless exclusivity of the fare, and express buses can't do heavy lifting the way rail can.

Edited May 1, 2021 by bobtehpanda

[bobtehpanda]

23 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Are you sure that the City of New York purchased the whole Rockaway Beach Branch or just the portion south of Liberty Junction/ Rockaway Blvd station ? If the city purchased the whole RBB the northern section would end up being an elongated Franklin Shuttle ending at Whitepot junction with the LIRR mainline. If the LIRR thought the RBB was a financial loser wouldn't the same apply to the NYCTA ? The City purchased the present  line from the Westchester County border southward AFAIK because they had no legal authority to purchase the northern section beyond the city limits. Just my thoughts. Carry on.

I'm kind of curious how this actually works, since as far as I know the city owns the entire aqueduct system and that is entirely outside of even the metro area.

[Deucey]

5 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

I'm kind of curious how this actually works, since as far as I know the city owns the entire aqueduct system and that is entirely outside of even the metro area.

Based on this high ass taxation in these Boris, I'm sure there was some deal with NYS and the barons that let NYC acquire upstate land, run them extraterritorrialy, and build these aqueducts so long as NYS didn't have to foot the bill.

There's precedent - SF came to own Hetch Hetchy in Yosemite (130 miles away) similarly, and LA via the family that owned the LA Times did similar with the Owens River.

NYS likely didn't give NYC remit to own and operate transit beyond the Bronx and Queens county lines, so we end up with what we have.