Rockaway Beach Branch

[T to Dyre Avenue]

19 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Yes but I will reiterate my point from earlier. BART & WMATA serve counties (even states) outside of their service zone with no issue. How come when it comes to us, we are so hesitant to even think about extending a line into Westchester or Long Island?

Part of it was that when municipal takeover of the City’s rail transit took effect in 1940, it was done by an agency run strictly by the City - the Board of Transportation. I don’t know if there was any legal prohibition against it, or if the City was simply not interested in running trains outside of the five boroughs, not even to adjacent communities such as New Rochelle, Mount Vernon and Yonkers. Articles, books and websites I’ve read over the years seem to suggest the latter. This wasn’t - and still isn’t - the case in Boston, Philadelphia or Chicago, where their rail transit systems served, and still serve, adjacent communities, both under private and public operations. 

1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I'm still of the opinion that the City, and not NYCT, owned the entire RBB. NYCT utilizes the southern portion of the branch obviously but I was under the impression that the City, not NYCT, controlled the branch from Liberty Junction northward. IIRC it was the local politicians who were against the reactivation of the northern part of the RBB. I'm willing to bet that the NYCT is not responsible for the section north of Liberty Junction and has never had any of it's equipment traverse the trackage up there. Remember that the southern part got subway service to the Rockaways while the LIRR still ran down to the Ozone Park station on the northern section until 1962. Ultimately what I'm getting at is that the City of New York has jurisdiction over the property now in that area but the NYCT has no legal rights up there. The issue is with the local politicians, the residents, and the City government. Hope I stated my opinion clearly this time.  Carry on. 

The whole line was purchased from the LIRR by the City. I don’t see why they wouldn’t have permitted NYCTA to operate subways north of Liberty Avenue after LIRR ceased operations to Ozone Park station. I thought NYCTA just didn’t have any plans to run service that far up. Probably then as now, politics threw a wrench into plans to use the whole branch for subway service.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

1 hour ago, Deucey said:

Based on this high ass taxation in these Boris, I'm sure there was some deal with NYS and the barons that let NYC acquire upstate land, run them extraterritorrialy, and build these aqueducts so long as NYS didn't have to foot the bill.

There's precedent - SF came to own Hetch Hetchy in Yosemite (130 miles away) similarly, and LA via the family that owned the LA Times did similar with the Owens River.

NYS likely didn't give NYC remit to own and operate transit beyond the Bronx and Queens county lines, so we end up with what we have.

Not to mention the Cincinnati Southern Railway which runs to Chattanooga, TN - 337 miles south of Cincy. http://cincinnatisouthernrailway.org/about/

It must have been in the original state legislation creating the NYCTA that prohibited them from going beyond The Bronx or Queens. Other states that created public agencies to take over failing urban rail transit systems didn’t have such prohibitions. For example, the Illinois state legislation that created the CTA in 1945 that permitted them to take over the privately owned operations of the Chicago Rapid Transit Company clearly didn’t have any such prohibition, because CTA continued to operate ‘L’ trains to suburban Evanston, Forest Park and Cicero after taking over in 1947, and even restored service to Skokie in 1964. 

Edited May 2, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Wallyhorse]

34 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

The whole line was purchased from the LIRR by the City. I don’t see why they wouldn’t have permitted NYCTA to operate subways north of Liberty Avenue after LIRR ceased operations to Ozone Park station. I thought NYCTA just didn’t have any plans to run service that far up. Probably then as now, politics threw a wrench into plans to use the whole branch for subway service.

Then the question should be, why didn't the city convert the northern portion to subway, which could have been a shuttle with the idea perhaps of THAT being the long-talked about Queens Super-Express with a stop at EITHER Queens Boulevard or Roosevelt and going from there straight to the RBB. 

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, Wallyhorse said:

Then the question should be, why didn't the city convert the northern portion to subway, which could have been a shuttle with the idea perhaps of THAT being the long-talked about Queens Super-Express with a stop at EITHER Queens Boulevard or Roosevelt and going from there straight to the RBB. 

$$$

This was only a few years after a 1951 bond issue for building the Second Avenue Subway. From Wikipedia:

Quote

In 1949, Queens and Lower Manhattan residents complained that the Second Avenue Subway would not create better transit options for them.[6] A year later, revised plans called for a connection from Second Avenue at 76th Street to Queens, under 34th Avenue and Northern Boulevard, via a new tunnel under the East River. Connections would also be made to the Long Island Rail Road (LIRR)'s Rockaway Beach Branch.[6][20][note 2] New York voters approved a bond measure for its construction in 1951, and the city was barely able to raise the requisite $559 million for the construction effort. However, the onset of the Korean War caused soaring prices for construction materials and saw the beginning of massive inflation.[6][9][23] Money from the 1951 bond measure was diverted to buy new cars, lengthen platforms, and maintain other parts of the aging New York City Subway system.[20][24] Out of a half-billion-dollar bond measure, only $112 million (equivalent to $1,103,000,000 in 2019), or 22% of the original amount, went toward the Second Avenue Subway.

 

[Trainmaster5]

1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Not to mention the Cincinnati Southern Railway which runs to Chattanooga, TN - 337 miles south of Cincy. http://cincinnatisouthernrailway.org/about/

It must have been in the original state legislation creating the NYCTA that prohibited them from going beyond The Bronx or Queens. Other states that created public agencies to take over failing urban rail transit systems didn’t have such prohibitions. For example, the Illinois state legislation that created the CTA in 1945 that permitted them to take over the privately owned operations of the Chicago Rapid Transit Company clearly didn’t have any such prohibition, because CTA continued to operate ‘L’ trains to suburban Evanston, Forest Park and Cicero after taking over in 1947, and even restored service to Skokie in 1964. 

The NYCTA is the successor to the city’s Board of Transportation. Even today look at the conflict between the City and the State with regards to the Home Rule issue. Gotta remember that anything regarding transit in the downstate area is always mired in legalese. Think PATH, Airtrains, LIRR, MNRR, MABSTOA, and the Dyre line. I did discover that the northern part of the RBB was part of the line purchase ( I stand corrected) but the LIRR operated the trains under lease from the city through the NYCTA. When I was a kid my family always used Atlantic Avenue as the route between our Brooklyn and Queens relatives which is why I always saw LIRR trains leaving the Woodhaven station crossing the street toward the Ozone Park Station. I mentioned the Dyre line because technically it came about after the city took over the BMT and the IRT. making it an IND line legally. Lots of legalese involved when it involves transit in NYC. If I missed something please correct me. Carry on.

[mrsman]

3 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

 

The whole line was purchased from the LIRR by the City. I don’t see why they wouldn’t have permitted NYCTA to operate subways north of Liberty Avenue after LIRR ceased operations to Ozone Park station. I thought NYCTA just didn’t have any plans to run service that far up. Probably then as now, politics threw a wrench into plans to use the whole branch for subway service.

This is it, in a nutshell.  The city did buy the whole RBB.  The part south of Liberty was converted to subway standards and connected to the Fulton el along Liberty.  The northern part was still run as an LIRR shuttle that connected with the LIRR main line, until 1962.  When LIRR abandoned service, the city had the physical means, but not the monetary means or the political means to turn the Rego Park - Ozone Park section as a subway line.

It is true that such a line would have limited utility unless it was connected to some new line to take it into Manhattan.  But it is also true that by essentially abandoning it in place, they made the process of rehabilitating the line that much more expensive.  And also made it politically harder to reintroduce service on the line.

So if the city did start running a subway shuttle from 1962 on from Rego Park to Rockaway Park, with transfers available to the Far Rockaway  service, the Lefferts Blvd  service, and the  line, it would be far easier to eventually find the money and the will to connect it to the QBL main line.  The fact that they did not run any trains at all for 60 years on this stretch basically means that we will never see trains along this stretch ever again.

So while we may be upset at today's politicians for not taking up the QueensLink cause, that is a real uphill battle these days.

And there were similar battles involving the High line.  Certainly there were some transit advocates who were hoping that it could form some type of far west side transit line, perhaps an extension of  to Lower Manhattna.  But those pipe dreams were really not feasible and converting the line to the aerial park was the best choice for the high line, under the circumstances.

 

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

9 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Unless you want to spin welfare for people who are on average wealthier than the rest of the city to begin with, express bus and ferries have higher subsidy per person than the subways and local buses and that's just a fact. The money would go farther stretching it on local services.

<takes out chair and waits for popcorn>

Yeah, that's why they're called "averages"... SOME neighborhoods are wealthier like mine, BUT some aren't. I guess the people in Red Hook, Soundview, Coney Island, etc. are WEALTHY. That's why they don't need their ferry service, which has proven VERY successful to areas that were historically cut off, POOR or working class at best and transit starved, but never mind that. Let's keep harping on wealthy neighborhoods and how they shouldn't get services because they have more money. LOL If it wasn't for the wealthier areas which generate tax revenues, there wouldn't be so much money for all of these "local services" you speak of.

The parts of Coney Island away from the subway have been pushing for a ferry for years, and they should. The neighborhood's income level should be irrevelant. They have limited transit and they should have transit options. If anything, most of the wealthier neighborhoods, especially those in Manhattan have a PLETHORA of transit options.  Boardmember Albert LOVES talking dumping on express buses, but he lives on the Upper West Side where he has several subway lines to choose from. Please. Leave the people in the outer boroughs alone with the crumbs we get. Most areas get one bus an hour off-peak in the outer boroughs compared to a subway running every 5-10 minutes. It's really like comparing apples to oranges.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Via Garibaldi 8]

On 4/30/2021 at 4:49 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

In fairness, the City aren't really trying to make better transit, certainly as far as the subway is concerned. The BQX was a half-hearted attempt that was dismissed as more of a gift to Brooklyn waterfront developers than an integral part of the City's mass transit. Then, after the backlash, they didn't propose anything else. Say what you will about him, but at least Bloomberg actually pushed for - and put money towards - the  Hudson Yards subway extension. Granted, it opened well after he left office, but it showed what happens when there's a will. I was hoping de Blasio might try to do the same with putting City money towards a subway extension in Brooklyn or SAS Phase 2, especially with East Harlem being part of then-Council Speaker Melissa Mark-Viverito's district. But no, all I heard was crickets from both the Mayor and Mark-Viverito. Beyond disappointing.

Also in fairness to Ben Kaback (Second Ave Sagas), there's been plenty of questioning on this site about whether or not the rebuilding of the Rockaway Beach Line is a worthy project, when the City has so many other areas that are in need of better subway or transit service. Go back just a couple pages in this thread and you’ll find it. Think about this, look how the Brighton Line and the Franklin Shuttle fell into a state of decrepitude by the 1970s/80s and that was with both lines still being in active use. Whereas RBB has sat there unused for well over a half a century. Nature has been reclaiming it back since at least the 70s. It took years to rebuild Brighton starting in the mid-80s. Even into the 90s, the stations were still in terrible shape. The Shuttle had to be shut down completely to be rebuilt in the late 90s. Think about how long it's going to take to rebuild RBB between Liberty Ave and Rego Park, given that a train hasn't operated on that route for well over half a century.

Oh please. The Hudson Yards project was a gift to developers. Of course they'd get that done. The City has poured BILLIONS into that project of taxpayer dollars, with the hopes of making a profit in the long run from the tax revenues they would get back from the new businesses and residents. That place is a money pit, and it still isn't completed yet. Get back to me when the City invests to improve transportation in the outer boroughs.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

8 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Oh please. The Hudson Yards project was a gift to developers. Of course they'd get that done. The City has poured BILLIONS into that project of taxpayer dollars, with the hopes of making a profit in the long run from the tax revenues they would get back from the new businesses and residents. That place is a money pit, and it still isn't completed yet. Get back to me when the City invests to improve transportation in the outer boroughs.

I’m not saying the  extension to HY was the right thing to do. I don’t disagree that it was a gift to developers (as BQX would have been). I’m just saying that the mayor at the time put up money for it and pushed it forward while his successor, other than saying a few nice words about a Utica Avenue subway extension, hasn’t invested very much in expanding transportation in the City. The point I tried to make is when there’s a will, there’s a way. Unfortunately when it comes to transit, “will” doesn’t work in de Blasio’s City Hall.

For the record, I questioned the need for this project over other areas of the City that have long needed better transit services. I felt like the  was being extended the wrong way when they announced the HY extension. But a  extension  past Main Street (which has been long-proposed) has very little political support and the development that is taking place in Northeast Queens is oriented more towards drivers than transit users. Development in the Rockaway Beach corridor is probably also car-oriented than transit-oriented because few people in power are pushing for train service there to come back.  

Edited May 2, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I’m not saying the  extension to HY was the right thing to do. I don’t disagree that it was a gift to developers (as BQX would have been). I’m just saying that the mayor at the time put up money for it and pushed it forward while his successor, other than saying a few nice words about a Utica Avenue subway extension, hasn’t invested very much in expanding transportation in the City. The point I tried to make is when there’s a will, there’s a way. Unfortunately when it comes to transit, “will” doesn’t work in de Blasio’s City Hall.

For the record, I questioned the need for this project over other areas of the City that have long needed better transit services. I felt like the  was being extended the wrong way when they announced the HY extension. But a  extension  past Main Street (which has been long-proposed) has very little political support and the development that is taking place in Northeast Queens is oriented more towards drivers than transit users. Development in the Rockaway Beach corridor is probably also car-oriented than transit-oriented because few people in power are pushing for train service there to come back.  

Yeah, and that's precisely my point. Bloomberg got it done because it was about $$$ and the City getting something back in return. De Blasio isn't much different. He ran on supposedly making the City more "equitable", but the reality is he's been in bed with the developers from day one.  You'll hear lots of talk about the outer boroughs getting some sort of subway extension and that's about it, and they'll do some studies.  I don't want to hear anyone complaining about the subsidies that go to providing the ferry service and the express buses when the City NOR the  give a damn about outer borough residents, and that is shown by the fact that not a single new subway station has been built in DECADES anywhere... Not Brooklyn, not the Bronx, not Queens or Staten Island, so we will take our ferry service and express bus service and the City and  will eat the subsidy.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Via Garibaldi 8]

20 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Let me fill in the blanks here.

• "It's an essential service for people far away from the subway"
• "Rich people deserve services too, they pay taxes"
• "It gets people out of cars, can't we just leave it at that?"
• "It's doing something"

Whew, saved us all a few pages of the same old same old.

Just so we don't get it twisted, fast buses linking regional centers with limited stops, is a fine service proposition on its own. (This is basically what the express bus is, although entirely focused on Manhattan.) I just have a problem with the needless exclusivity of the fare, and express buses can't do heavy lifting the way rail can.

And why do we need to have rail everywhere? Says who?  You're basically arguing that we MUST spend BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars to bring rail to ALL areas of the City that would drastically change some areas that may not need to have rail service to begin with. If the ferries and express buses serve the areas, then what's the problem? Some areas were meant to be more low density, and there's nothing wrong with that. You seem to be under the impression that building rails means that they will automatically be used. There are SOME people that don't like dense areas and prefer more suburban areas.  We should focus on rail for communities that truly WANT and need it. There is nothing wrong with having a transit system where some are served by ferries, express buses, commuter trains, etc. That sort of thinking is irresponsible and would be a waste of taxpayer dollars.

[bobtehpanda]

6 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

And why do we need to have rail everywhere? Says who?

That's funny., who did say that?

This is all I had to say:

Quote

The money would go farther stretching it on local services.

Quote

I just have a problem with the needless exclusivity of the fare, and express buses can't do heavy lifting the way rail can.

If you feel hit by what you're reading between the lines in these statements, that's not my problem.

Quote

If the ferries and express buses serve the areas, then what's the problem?

The problem is that, particularly for the ferries, we are spending hundreds of millions of dollars we don't have and cutting service elsewhere.

NYC Ferry has cost $637M to date. Those disastrous 2010 service cuts cost $90M. 

[Lawrence St]

6 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

That's funny., who did say that?

This is all I had to say:

If you feel hit by what you're reading between the lines in these statements, that's not my problem.

The problem is that, particularly for the ferries, we are spending hundreds of millions of dollars we don't have and cutting service elsewhere.

NYC Ferry has cost $637M to date. Those disastrous 2010 service cuts cost $90M. 

In 2010 things were different. We're in a whole new decade and we need to start looking at other means of transportation.

Again, most of this arguing is basically "I don't use it, so it must be useless!". 

Brooklyn Manor lost their express bus back in the early 2000's and are now stuck with the Cross Bay Express bus.

I dont hear some of you complaining about the subsidy for Amtrak, most importantly the lines that operate 90% or more in NYS that we pay taxes on.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Lawrence St

[bobtehpanda]

2 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

In 2010 things were different. We're in a whole new decade and we need to start looking at other means of transportation.

Again, most of this arguing is basically "I don't use it, so it must be useless!". 

Brooklyn Manor lost their express bus back in the early 2000's and are now stuck with the Cross Bay Express bus.

Well, the arguing is that few people use it, and as a percentage of people, nobody uses it.

NYC Ferry ridership is 10k. To put this in perspective, 10k riders total across three routes would put it at #60 out of #180 bus routes. And that for half a billion.

Edited May 2, 2021 by bobtehpanda

[Lawrence St]

1 minute ago, bobtehpanda said:

Well, the arguing is that few people use it, and as a percentage of people, nobody uses it.

The Franklin Shuttle also sees few people use it, but was it discontinued?

[bobtehpanda]

2 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

The Franklin Shuttle also sees few people use it, but was it discontinued?

Does it cost half a billion dollars to run the Franklin Shuttle?

The 1994 rehab cost $74 million.

[Lawrence St]

Just now, bobtehpanda said:

Does it cost half a billion dollars to run the Franklin Shuttle?

The 1994 rehab cost $74 million.

Again, your comparing 1990-2010 costs in a 2020 decade world. It dont work like that. 

[bobtehpanda]

Just now, Lawrence St said:

Again, your comparing 1990-2010 costs in a 2020 decade world. It dont work like that. 

inflation hasn't been that high.

$74M in 1990 to 2021 dollars is $152M.

$90M in 2010 to 2021 dollars is $108M.

Unless you are somehow claiming that transit costs are outpacing inflation 5x for good reasons, the logic still holds.

[Lawrence St]

1 minute ago, bobtehpanda said:

inflation hasn't been that high.

$74M in 1990 to 2021 dollars is $152M.

$90M in 2010 to 2021 dollars is $108M.

Unless you are somehow claiming that transit costs are outpacing inflation 5x for good reasons, the logic still holds.

All SAS phases & Hudson Yards extension have entered the chat...

Transit has always had a 5x inflation, SAS being a prime example.

[bobtehpanda]

1 minute ago, Lawrence St said:

All SAS phases & Hudson Yards extension have entered the chat...

Transit has always had a 5x inflation, SAS being a prime example.

Construction is different from operation. 

Now I can safely say that the workers driving the buses and operating the trains are not receiving 5x the salary in the last ten years. The operating budget has not exploded like that.

Edited May 2, 2021 by bobtehpanda

[Deucey]

16 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I dont hear some of you complaining about the subsidy for Amtrak, most importantly the lines that operate 90% or more in NYS that we pay taxes on

Since the NEC subsidizes Amtrak ops for all those unprofitable long haul routes politicians want so sundown towns have train service but few of those residents ride, that's a bit out of our control as NYers.

But folks do complain. They just happen to be folks who want to cut others' service and subsidy but keep their own.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

Does it cost half a billion dollars to run the Franklin Shuttle?

The 1994 rehab cost $74 million.

So what's your point? The  provides a service to the public...

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

That's funny., who did say that?

This is all I had to say:

If you feel hit by what you're reading between the lines in these statements, that's not my problem.

The problem is that, particularly for the ferries, we are spending hundreds of millions of dollars we don't have and cutting service elsewhere.

NYC Ferry has cost $637M to date. Those disastrous 2010 service cuts cost $90M. 

So in other words, to hell with the people that don't have subway service in their communities and use the ferries. That's basically what you're saying and I have a problem with that. On this, I actually agree with de Blasio because it is no secret that a number of neighborhoods in the outer boroughs have greatly benefitted from having the ferry service. It's public transportation, that's what it is. You don't like it because it has high subsidies, and by local services, what else could you possibly be referring to aside from rail service? You're going to regurgitate the same argument used by others, which is we should be building out rail services, which has an astronomical cost upfront to build and takes decades to be built, as evidenced by the SAS. The ferry service has been built out quickly after providing an EIS for each area.

Yes, the subsidy is high, but part of that was done on purpose by the City to make it affordable to the people that benefit from using the ferry so that they pay the same price as people who have subways in the neighborhoods, which is $2.75, and despite your whole crusade to "crucify" higher income people, the fact of the matter is neighborhoods like Red Hook, Soundview, parts of the Rockaways and the like have greatly benefitted from having a ferry service in their neighborhoods, and a chunk of these people are folks living in subsidized housing by the way like the housing projects, since you have such an issue with subsidies. 

[Deucey]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

On this, I actually agree with de Blasio because it is no secret that a number of neighborhoods in the outer boroughs have greatly benefitted from having the ferry service.

I just wish it was integrated with OMNY/MetroCard so it isn't a two-fare zone for those passengers, along with making these ferry landings LTD and SBS bus hubs.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

9 minutes ago, Deucey said:

I just wish it was integrated with OMNY/MetroCard so it isn't a two-fare zone for those passengers, along with making these ferry landings LTD and SBS bus hubs.

Technically it is not a two-fare zone. The meetings that I attended for work prior to the rollout, some communities got a free shuttle bus to run to the ferry. If the shuttle bus was used, then it was kept. Other areas did not get one, as one was not needed. It varies by neighborhood. Keeping the fare separate keeps the ferry from becoming overwhelmed. The City already had to scramble to run extra ferry service because of how successful it was. They did not anticipate getting such high ridership so quickly, so they had to have new boats built as quickly as possible. The Rockaways for example was quite upset when the Bloomberg administration removed the ferries. They were by far one of the most vocal areas. There was a guy from the Rockaways that showed up to just about EVERY meeting, even the ones in the Bronx. It was hilarious because as soon as I walked in, he would come over and greet me. lol

Edited May 2, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Lawrence St]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Technically it is not a two-fare zone. The meetings that I attended for work prior to the rollout, some communities got a free shuttle bus to run to the ferry. If the shuttle bus was used, then it was kept. Other areas did not get one, as one was not needed. It varies by neighborhood. Keeping the fare separate keeps the ferry from becoming overwhelmed. The City already had to scramble to run extra ferry service because of how successful it was. They did not anticipate getting such high ridership so quickly, so they had to have new boats built as quickly as possible. The Rockaways for example was quite upset when the Bloomberg administration removed the ferries. They were by far one of the most vocal areas. There was a guy from the Rockaways that showed up to just about EVERY meeting, even the ones in the Bronx. It was hilarious because as soon as I walked in, he would come over and greet me. lol

Exactly, not to mention taking the ferry is actually faster then taking the .