Rockaway Beach Branch

[Wallyhorse]

2 minutes ago, CenSin said:

Anyone keeping a counter on this proposal? Safe to say it exceeds 3 digits now. 😂

Sorry, I just think that is the logical move to shorten the (stopping it being the "rarely" as some call it) as it would have a mostly clear run going between 95th and Canal on the as I'd do it.  The can take over on QBL and if you need to, you can beef up service and if need be run a few of those as locals in Manhattan and via Montague to supplement the . 

[CenSin]

9 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Sorry, I just think that is the logical move to shorten the (stopping it being the "rarely" as some call it) as it would have a mostly clear run going between 95th and Canal on the as I'd do it.  The can take over on QBL and if you need to, you can beef up service and if need be run a few of those as locals in Manhattan and via Montague to supplement the . 

These needs trump all for the mass market: access to midtown Manhattan; and not tying up another route for a mere 3 stops and cutting it’s frequency.

A single-purpose route which dodges the places where people are really going when it’s not otherwise physically restricted from doing so does not serve the market. It serves nostalgia and only reasons important to you. Just petition for an holiday train.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

12 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Sorry, I just think that is the logical move to shorten the (stopping it being the "rarely" as some call it) as it would have a mostly clear run going between 95th and Canal on the as I'd do it.  The can take over on QBL and if you need to, you can beef up service and if need be run a few of those as locals in Manhattan and via Montague to supplement the . 

No! The logical move to shorten the  is to run it via Queenslink and turn it at Whitehall St. The  would then replace the  in Brooklyn. And the  does not have to run local and via the Montague Tunnel at all. Like so...

https://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/2020/10/deinterlining-with-one-switch/

Only difference from Van is that the  would be the only service on the West End Line and 4th Ave Local (because it's replacing the  in Brooklyn). Maybe have a /  peak local/express pattern on the West End Line similar to the /  in The Bronx and the /  in Queens.

Edited August 11, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 8/10/2022 at 7:39 PM, mrsman said:

A deinterlined QBL in my book means that the locals run to 53rd and the expresses run to 63rd.  For simplicity,  and  are locals and  and  and Orange-H are expresses.  [M is relegated to teh brown M Nassau service.]

Regardless of how the QBL connects with Manhattan, one can add some switches in the Rego Park area to deinterline the east side of the QBL.  

I would do the following:

Make Woodhaven an express stop.  This makes it easier to permit transfers between QBL local - Rockaway trains and QBL express - Jamaica trains.

Send all the locals to the RBB.  This would provide enough frequency on the RBB line to service the different Rockaway branches, to Rockaway Park and to Far Rockaway.  Both services would run as 8th Ave locals that terminate at WTC.   

Add a switch between local and express tracks east of where the RBB splits off.  This will allow three types of service to be run:

 Jam Ctr - QBL express (skips Briarwood, 75 Av, 67 Av) - 63rd - 6 Av local - Culver - CI.

Orange - H.  179th - Hillside local (makes all stops through 67 Av) - merges into express, 63rd - 6 Av local - 2 Av/Houston.  

 179th - Hillside/QBL  express (only stops at Sutphin, Union Turnpike, Forest Hills, Roosevelt) - 63rd - 6 Av local - Church Ave.  During rush hours,  can run express in Brooklyn between Jay St and Church Ave.

I’m not too keen on the idea of sending all QB local service to the Rockaways. You run the risk of over-serving both branches (I assume the  services to Far Rockaway and Rock Park would be eliminated in favor of the  and ). And if you board an  or  at any of the local stops west of Woodhaven Blvd, you’d have to transfer to the  for Rego Park, whereas you don’t have to do that now. You’ve also got quite a lot of merging between the ,  and  both in Queens at Kew Gardens and Forest Hills, and in Manhattan at 2nd Avenue. I just can’t see how that’s a true improvement over the current QBL services. And three 6th Ave local services is going to be a very tight fit. You have to assume nothing will ever go wrong for this to run well. We all know that’ll never happen, especially when they need to reroute 8th Ave services over the 6th Ave Line. Or vice versa.

 But I do agree that Woodhaven should be made an express stop.  

[Wallyhorse]

On 8/11/2022 at 10:52 AM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

No! The logical move to shorten the  is to run it via Queenslink and turn it at Whitehall St. The  would then replace the  in Brooklyn. And the  does not have to run local and via the Montague Tunnel at all. Like so...

https://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/2020/10/deinterlining-with-one-switch/

Only difference from Van is that the  would be the only service on the West End Line and 4th Ave Local (because it's replacing the  in Brooklyn). Maybe have a /  peak local/express pattern on the West End Line similar to the /  in The Bronx and the /  in Queens.

I do it with the  from Whitehall-Rockaway and make the  brown and switching to Nassau, running to Canal Street on the  is because you have many old-timers, including residents who would still want the , even running on Nassau as the local in Bay Ridge because it has been such ever since lettered trains were used there (of course originally as the before 1985). This also would eliminate many of the problems the  currently has by making it a Nassau train to Canal/late nights and weekends to Metropolitan Avenue. 

The , which already terminates at Whitehall would become the main Broadway local, running Whitehall-Rockaway Park with some trains if needed ending and beginning on the tunnel level of Canal Street.  The would only if it became necessary would have some trains operate via Montague and Broadway local to supplement for trains that had to end/begin at Canal Street, most likely during rush hours (otherwise, the would be express with the to and from 57th Street and that merge with the northbound doesn't take place until after 57th and if necessary a punch box is added southbound at 5th Avenue-59th Street to allow for trains to go local or express at 57th Street.  

[CenSin]

3 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

many old-timers

Many times more who are not

4 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

This also would eliminate many of the problems the  currently has

The isn’t current. Truncating the that far back would create problems though.

[Wallyhorse]

1 hour ago, CenSin said:

Many times more who are not

The isn’t current. Truncating the that far back would create problems though.

Not if the that would become full-time in this replaced the to 71-Continental (and if the RBB is activated, then going to Rockaway Park).  This would have the same TPH as the current , including if necessary having some trains end and begin on the Tunnel Level of Canal Street.  Those looking for lower Manhattan stops to/from Brooklyn have other options that stop within a couple of blocks of the Broadway line stations at Whitehall, Rector, Cortlandt, and City Hall, including what would be this  at Broad, Fulton and Chambers, the and  at Fulton and Chambers, the and  at Wall, Fulton and Park Place and the  and at Bowling Green, Wall, Fulton and Chambers.  

Basically splitting the  (into the Nassau ) and into two lines likely removes a lot of the issues even if it eliminates using the Montague tunnel (except for late nights when the would still operate via such).

[CenSin]

On 8/13/2022 at 12:06 AM, Wallyhorse said:

Not if the that would become full-time in this replaced the to 71-Continental (and if the RBB is activated, then going to Rockaway Park).  This would have the same TPH as the current , including if necessary having some trains end and begin on the Tunnel Level of Canal Street.  Those looking for lower Manhattan stops to/from Brooklyn have other options that stop within a couple of blocks of the Broadway line stations at Whitehall, Rector, Cortlandt, and City Hall, including what would be this  at Broad, Fulton and Chambers, the and  at Fulton and Chambers, the and  at Wall, Fulton and Park Place and the  and at Bowling Green, Wall, Fulton and Chambers.  

Basically splitting the  (into the Nassau ) and into two lines likely removes a lot of the issues even if it eliminates using the Montague tunnel (except for late nights when the would still operate via such).

There’s an old adage: “If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts; if you have the law on your side, pound the law; if you have neither the facts nor the law, pound the table.”

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 8/13/2022 at 12:06 AM, Wallyhorse said:

 Basically splitting the  (into the Nassau ) and into two lines likely removes a lot of the issues even if it eliminates using the Montague tunnel (except for late nights when the would still operate via such).

But so does terminating the  at Whitehall and making the  full time and extending it to Brooklyn in the ‘s place. The  is completely unnecessary. And don’t tell me about “old timers” and “residents who still want it.” How would you know that?

[BreeddekalbL]

While you are arguing about the  or  

Based in current conditions on queens blvd and CBTC gets built say you send the  down the rbb if it gets built and you you build down the L.I.E / H.H.E there  and send the  there could you send the back onto queens blvd? 

Edited August 15, 2022 by BreeddekalbL

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Just now, BreeddekalbL said:

While you are arguing about the  or  

Based in current conditions on queens blvd say you send the  down the rbb if it gets built and you you build down the L.I.E / H.H.E there  and send the  there could you send the back onto queens blvd? 

Well, if both extensions are done and the  is sent down the RBB and the  via the LIE, then I suppose the  could be sent back onto Queens Blvd. I mean, something would have to stop at 67th Ave and provide QB local service all the way between 71st and Roosevelt. But that’s pretty much the only way I’d be in favor of sending the  back to QB.

[Wallyhorse]

11 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

But so does terminating the  at Whitehall and making the  full time and extending it to Brooklyn in the ‘s place. The  is completely unnecessary. And don’t tell me about “old timers” and “residents who still want it.” How would you know that?

In other forums with the  this has actually come up.  Several old timers in those forums made clear the was ALWAYS supposed to be Bay Ridge and moving it elsewhere is not right. That is something I have respected.  

[BreeddekalbL]

Consider this me turning heel on the mayor because he will announce the first phase of the Queensway project 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

10 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Consider this me turning heel on the mayor because he will announce the first phase of the Queensway project 

FWIW, his coms director says it won’t preclude restoring rail onto the branch and that they’re working with the MTA, but I want to see a concrete plan for that, before I fully believe him.

On 8/15/2022 at 7:52 AM, Wallyhorse said:

In other forums with the  this has actually come up.  Several old timers in those forums made clear the was ALWAYS supposed to be Bay Ridge and moving it elsewhere is not right. That is something I have respected.  

Then the old SubChatters are the only ones who care about that. I work in Court with a lot of people from Bay Ridge, many of whom are not young. All of them take the express bus. In fact, they shun the  train. They wouldn’t miss it if were replaced by another subway line. And if said subway ran express between 36th St and the Manny B, they might like it better. And who knows? Some might even switch from the express buses to the train. 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by T to Dyre Avenue

[LGA Link N Train]

1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

FWIW, his coms director says it won’t preclude restoring rail onto the branch and that they’re working with the MTA, but I want to see a concrete plan for that, before I fully believe him.

I call BS to that statement, especially after looking at the Rendering's for the first Phase of the Queenway Project. If you look here, you can see that it hinders any possibility for any rail reactivation: https://dlandstudio.com/The-QueensWay-Met-Hub-NY

@BreeddekalbL IDK why I can't quote you for some reason, but the Queenslink team put up a petition on their website to keep the Rail Proposal alive: https://thequeenslink.org/

[Wallyhorse]

On 9/16/2022 at 2:29 PM, LGA Link N Train said:

I call BS to that statement, especially after looking at the Rendering's for the first Phase of the Queenway Project. If you look here, you can see that it hinders any possibility for any rail reactivation: https://dlandstudio.com/The-QueensWay-Met-Hub-NY

@BreeddekalbL IDK why I can't quote you for some reason, but the Queenslink team put up a petition on their website to keep the Rail Proposal alive: https://thequeenslink.org/

And not surprising.  To me, the people who always wanted it to be Queensway IMO have had a few of people "not their kind" coming into the area and ruining it for them and potentially having ripple effects for their property values, especially of those "not their kind' moved in.  

[LGA Link N Train]

Who wants to bid?

https://m.publicsurplus.com/sms/nycdcas,ny/auction/view?auc=3155438

[Lawrence St]

http://www.steinway.lagcc.cuny.edu/files_doc/GIULIANI_FILES/09.000.0000target-101.PDF

I find this PDF from Logan Bus Company hilarious. 

"The communities of Richmond Hill, Glendale, Ozone Park, Middle Village and Forest Hills are strongly opposed to any restoration of this line."

I know dam well that's a lie, as people have been asking this line to be reactivated for the better part of 20+ years.

I'd also like to know who filled in the Atlantic-Rockaway junction because it couldn't have been the city.

[BreeddekalbL]

Wow, the enemy of my enemy is my friend? Transportation alternatives supports the queenslink project 

https://twitter.com/TransAlt/status/1700539592028418138?t=5507k0sRAgT_xSkhjFN_ww&s=19

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by BreeddekalbL

[TDL]

Welp, the needs assessment comp evaluation is out. Not good news for RBB

 

https://future.mta.info/documents/20-YearNeedsAssessment_ComparativeEvaluation.pdf

[Vulturious]

29 minutes ago, TDL said:

Welp, the needs assessment comp evaluation is out. Not good news for RBB

 

https://future.mta.info/documents/20-YearNeedsAssessment_ComparativeEvaluation.pdf

Better than the previous price honestly, it was $8 Billion last time, this is about $2B cheaper.

[Wallyhorse]

On 10/4/2023 at 6:03 PM, Vulturious said:

Better than the previous price honestly, it was $8 Billion last time, this is about $2B cheaper.

Not a surprise.  They seem to not want to re-activate the RBB and use expenses as a reason.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

On 9/16/2022 at 1:23 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

FWIW, his coms director says it won’t preclude restoring rail onto the branch and that they’re working with the MTA, but I want to see a concrete plan for that, before I fully believe him.

 

 

 

I think this ends up being one of those things where it may technically not physically block a subway from ever being built, but once the park it will be hard to impossible to convince politicians to build a new subway in the middle of a park. Especially if Queensway sort of gets the "iconic" status of the highline.

I'd say best case for Queensway is for it to be stalled off until Adams administration ends.