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Rockaway Beach Branch

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1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I think a park should go there and they should run more express bus service and call it a day. You can run the bus lanes further down Woodhaven Blvd and extend them to Cross Bay Blvd if need be.

You could do that right now without having to add any express bus service. The BM5 can make stops at Liberty Ave, 101 Ave, Jamaica Ave, and Alderton Street. With the bus lane, buses are generally fast, and since the bus stops are no longer on the service road (or in the case of Liberty Avenue, on the service road sidewalk), it would not increase travel time significantly. IDK if rush hour buses have the capacity, but midday and weekend buses certainly have enough space. 

 

52 minutes ago, LGA Link N train said:

On a respective criticism note. I still disagree with having a park that runs into another park. It's just unlogical. As for an express bus plan. I do agree with that and I'll consider that as part of my "Woodhaven Plan". I'd still convert the line for subway use since I got something in mind for the long term. As for the Queensway proposal, I'd still build the rail line but keep most of the Queensway elements (even though I oppose to it) http://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/?s=Queensway&submit=Search

This link should give an idea towards what I'm saying, just so I don't piss off supporters from either side (though I think the rail/park should be done in phases)

Phase 1 - Reactivate and convert the line, reserve some space for a greenway

Phase 2 - begin work on the Queensway 

I will explain this in my Woodhaven Plan

IDK about a park either, but not for that reason. My issue is more around the intentions of this  park and the purpose.  I mean, you spruce up the greenspace (since it's already there), but besides that, I see it being tedious to do so (for multiple reasons). You cannot build both a park AND a subway. For those who support either plan, it's one or the other.

As for the subway, IDK about that either. A subway passing through can be heard, and I feel like many would not want something like that to happen in the neighborhood. I don't blame them either. 

 

33 minutes ago, D to 96 St said:

However, bus service STILL WON'T BE ENOUGH

Yeah, as long as the MTA keeps getting away with shortchanging bus riders (as a whole).

 

33 minutes ago, D to 96 St said:

And express buses won't even get high ridership at ALL.

In part because the MTA could honestly care less about express buses, and doesn't attempt to maximize ridership using existing resources. You get more revenue if more people took the current express bus service provided (with the subway being so atrocious as it is nowadays). 

It's so bad that if you use Trip Planner, they don't even have the express bus option checked off under the "Travel by" section (subway, bus, and rail are all checked off though). The MTA would prefer to have their trains running like sardines, when opportunities for greater revenue exists right now. The average person probably wouldn't pay so much attention to that in the first place, and would likely believe that the subway is the only option, when there could be a faster option available.

 

I've literally heard stories of people who I know calling Ubers to go to Manhattan in order to avoid the subway where the express buses run every 30 minutes or so during off-peak hours. When I tell them why they never take the express bus, they ask "What is the express bus?" or "I see them, but I don't know where they go". I'm dumbfounded myself as to how they don't know all their transportation option despite living there for like a decade or so. This is not isolated to just this scenario either, in neighborhoods where the express buses run.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another thing: how would this play out for QBL? Even with CBTC installed, there's no way the max TPH would still be sufficient enough for everyone who currently would rely on the QBL. We need to stop being so subway centric all the time, because this is precisely what is causing the issues we see today (as well as lack of adequate funding). The QBL cannot handle everyone, and we need to stop feeding people into the QBL. Feeding into Flushing is no better.

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven
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1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

...Yes they do, but the stations are not that accessible in some parts of Southeast Queens and apparently too expensive for some residents (this was talked about previously so I won't delve into it further). Northeast Queens (areas like Douglaston and Little Neck), which is more upper middle and upper class uses their LIRR stations despite the high cost because it's seen as the professional thing to take; that and getting to the subway takes forever.

I think a park should go there and they should run more express bus service and call it a day. You can run the bus lanes further down Woodhaven Blvd and extend them to Cross Bay Blvd if need be.

So instead of devoting funds to building a rail line that makes QBL and Flushing Line travel worse, devote some of those funds to revamping the bus network to feed the SE Q LIRR stations and update pedestrian access, then run some extra express buses with fewer stops.

And Queens gets a park that could give me a reason to go to Queens.

 

You damn sure earn that consultant salary V.

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29 minutes ago, Deucey said:

So instead of devoting funds to building a rail line that makes QBL and Flushing Line travel worse, devote some of those funds to revamping the bus network to feed the SE Q LIRR stations and update pedestrian access, then run some extra express buses with fewer stops.

And Queens gets a park that could give me a reason to go to Queens.

 

You damn sure earn that consultant salary V.

I'm just being honest. You have LIRR trains running that are underutilized in Southeast Queens because of the high fares and lack of access. Why not use what we already have? That's the main problem. Everyone down there runs to the subway because of the high cost. You have express bus service too but again they take the subway because it's cheaper. MNRR used a similar experiment in my neighborhood. When I moved here almost six years ago I rarely used Metro-North. They started a marketing campaign marketing the service, but prior to that they also started running shuttle buses to both of our stations because before that they weren't maximizing ridership because the stations sit right on the Hudson River and are hard to reach because of the hilly terrain. Now because of marketing and the shuttle buses, ridership at both stations continues to increase. The cost is something that wasn't an issue here, but is for Southeast Queens so they would have to address that too and probably increase the frequencies as MNRR did here.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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3 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I'm just being honest. You have LIRR trains running that are underutilized in Southeast Queens because of the high fares and lack of access. Why not use what we already have? That's the main problem. Everyone down there runs to the subway because of the high cost. You have express bus service too but again they take the subway because it's cheaper.

I’m with you. Sure a North-South line would be nice to have, but it's low on the usefulness scale, whereas taking those existing and underutilized LIRR lines and increasing their utility - either by incentivizing likely pax with an economical fare (IIRC there's already a CityFare for LIRR - Make that equal to a NYCTA fare and use a MetroCard to pay it) and limited stop express bus service (say no pickup or dropoff after Penn Av if going thru BK to the BBT or Van Wyck if going thru QMT) and the perceived problem is solved.

If RBB were going to be LRT that connected with Bay Ridge and end or run thru Jamaica Station, then go for it since it'll be like LA's Green Line - lower utilization but useful in reducing traffic loads on nearby highways (The 105 and 405 in LA; The Belt, Van Wyck and SSP here). 

And it could have a park next to it.

But a Heavy Rail line that adds trackage but doesn't add capacity is a waste of billions before (MTA) goes over budget with delay after delay.

Express buses and better fare subsidy solves more of the perceived problems for much less.

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Did you see what I said earlier? LET'S LOCK THIS THREAD. 

This thread was good until you guys bumped in to improve bus service and build the park. If this thread shouldn't be locked, let's get back on topic!

Edited by D to 96 St
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A Rockaway Beach discussion should discuss all issues pertaining to the RBB. Given that a park and improved bus service are frequently proposed alternatives to reactivation, I think this discussion is wholly within bounds. 

And FWIW, if the mods really did think it was time for a lock, they would lock it. You don't need to tell them to. 

Now, for my thoughts. I could not agree more with lower LIRR fares/bus restructuring to feed LIRR as transit solutions for queens. The impending isolation of the atlantic branch from the rest of the LIRR network gives MTA a chance to try its hand at running a sort of crossover regional rail/subway network -- something akin to overground. What's more, the interest in RX and  the Lower Montauk Branch could all be tied into the creation of such a network, thereby leveraging existing assets with less investment than would be needed to build equivalent subway lines. 

So yes, the RBB is a cool little idea. But when placed in the context of that corridor's transportational requirements, and those of the city at large, I think it will -- for now, at least -- have to take a back seat. 

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16 minutes ago, RR503 said:

A Rockaway Beach discussion should discuss all issues pertaining to the RBB. Given that a park and improved bus service are frequently proposed alternatives to reactivation, I think this discussion is wholly within bounds. 

And FWIW, if the mods really did think it was time for a lock, they would lock it. You don't need to tell them to. 

Now, for my thoughts. I could not agree more with lower LIRR fares/bus restructuring to feed LIRR as transit solutions for queens. The impending isolation of the atlantic branch from the rest of the LIRR network gives MTA a chance to try its hand at running a sort of crossover regional rail/subway network -- something akin to overground. What's more, the interest in RX and  the Lower Montauk Branch could all be tied into the creation of such a network, thereby leveraging existing assets with less investment than would be needed to build equivalent subway lines. 

So yes, the RBB is a cool little idea. But when placed in the context of that corridor's transportational requirements, and those of the city at large, I think it will -- for now, at least -- have to take a back seat. 

How does a park have to do with reactivation and especially transportation? There are plenty of parks around Queens and there doesn't need to be another one. Plus, the QUEENSWAY will NEVER SEE the crowds the High Line does. 

I never said they HAVE to lock this thread, I only said I am WILLING to lock the thread. 

They could convert the Atlantic Branch to subway use since it will see less traffic after ESA. 

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Well, this thread turned into an argument lately. So let's put it like this. RBB subway conversion is gonna be considered a small project that would eventually have a HUGE consequence. So let's ALL come up with a solution that WE CAN ALL AGREE WITH and work from there. Besides, aren't we the city that can make the impossible happen???

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3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Do you add anything to any thread? All you do is complain about what other people post yet you add nothing to the discussion. 

You're right - I just listen and don't pipe up much beauase I don't have any information to contribute. I do, however, think I am adding more to the discussion by complaining than are the people I am complaining about...

Yes, lock please!

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I hope everyone agrees with this.

(M) service will run to Rockaway Park 24/7, with some rush hr trains turning at 2 Av-Houston. The (R) will be cut back to Whitehall St on weekends, and the (G) will run to 71 Av all times. 

The Queensway supporters should support the "LowLine" at Essex St and a complete renovation of Forest Park. 

Bus services will be rerouted to cover the remaining gaps the RBB doesn't cover. The Q52/53 SBS will remain as-is. 

Now, let's lock the thread.

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2 hours ago, RR503 said:

A Rockaway Beach discussion should discuss all issues pertaining to the RBB. Given that a park and improved bus service are frequently proposed alternatives to reactivation, I think this discussion is wholly within bounds. 

And FWIW, if the mods really did think it was time for a lock, they would lock it. You don't need to tell them to. 

Now, for my thoughts. I could not agree more with lower LIRR fares/bus restructuring to feed LIRR as transit solutions for queens. The impending isolation of the atlantic branch from the rest of the LIRR network gives MTA a chance to try its hand at running a sort of crossover regional rail/subway network -- something akin to overground. What's more, the interest in RX and  the Lower Montauk Branch could all be tied into the creation of such a network, thereby leveraging existing assets with less investment than would be needed to build equivalent subway lines. 

So yes, the RBB is a cool little idea. But when placed in the context of that corridor's transportational requirements, and those of the city at large, I think it will -- for now, at least -- have to take a back seat. 

I agree with you in that the RBB is just not important. Regional rail as it's thrown around is very half-baked just because there are so many implementation issues that get handwaved away. In the most likely scenario, where East Side Access is linked to Atlantic Terminal, the main issue is that you need to balance out service requirements on the northern segments (LIRR Main Line) and the southern segments (Atlantic Terminal).

On the southern side, you have three potential branches to take over that are short enough for metro-style service:

  • West Hempstead
  • Far Rockaway
  • Long Beach

This means that you need three potential branches on the north side as well.

  • Hempstead
  • Port Washington
  • Belmont Park (potentially, since it's an underused terminal that still serves the entire city and just stops right outside of it.)

There's also the issue of balancing demand; the northern side generally has branches with far more demand than the southern side.

In this scenario, RBB fares very poorly, because it sends more demand to the northern side, which already has more demand, and forces diversion of trains away from very busy branches like the Port Washington branch.

This is just one scenario where RBB does not do well, but the general problem is that LIRR Main Line is basically at capacity. All those trains from Huntington, PJ, Ronkonkoma, and Babylon are already full barreling down the tracks, and RBB is just not going to be able to fit. 

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4 minutes ago, D to 96 St said:

I hope everyone agrees with this.

(M) service will run to Rockaway Park 24/7, with some rush hr trains turning at 2 Av-Houston. The (R) will be cut back to Whitehall St on weekends, and the (G) will run to 71 Av all times. 

The Queensway supporters should support the "LowLine" at Essex St and a complete renovation of Forest Park. 

Bus services will be rerouted to cover the remaining gaps the RBB doesn't cover. The Q52/53 SBS will remain as-is. 

Now, let's lock the thread.

The point is to discuss, not just say your plan is the consensus because you like it.

Personally I think this is half-baked, mostly because there isn't really a good reason to run (G) trains to Forest Hills (especially over the (R)and there's no need to turn rush hour trains at 2 Av Houston.

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Just now, bobtehpanda said:

The point is to discuss, not just say your plan is the consensus because you like it.

Personally I think this is half-baked, mostly because there isn't really a good reason to run (G) trains to Forest Hills (especially over the (R)and there's no need to turn rush hour trains at 2 Av Houston.

The whole point of turning trains at 2 Av-Houston is because someone pointed out the (M) wold be long, so that is the purpose. 

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I still think that the RBB on short term would work for some time, but (M) and (R) trains need a balanced service. Same applies to the late night  (E) service. Long term, the Queens Bypass should have some involvement. But let's not do anything without a cost reform. 

Another thing I want to point out. Let's use the RBB as a linkage of some sort so that In the long term. It can be useful 

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1 hour ago, D to 96 St said:

The whole point of turning trains at 2 Av-Houston is because someone pointed out the (M) wold be long, so that is the purpose. 

The (M) is long if you send it to the Rockaways, which is really not worth it because all the stations south of Broad Channel scrape the bottom of the barrel when it comes to ridership. It only needs to go to Howard Beach, and maybe some trains could go to Rock Park during the summer.

Really, the Rockaways potential ridership is so small, it would probably be best to terminate all subway service at Howard Beach and run an AirTrain-type shuttle system in the Rockaways. The Rockaways may fill buses, but one full-length train serves a lot more than a bus.

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2 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

The (M) is long if you send it to the Rockaways, which is really not worth it because all the stations south of Broad Channel scrape the bottom of the barrel when it comes to ridership. It only needs to go to Howard Beach, and maybe some trains could go to Rock Park during the summer.

Really, the Rockaways potential ridership is so small, it would probably be best to terminate all subway service at Howard Beach and run an AirTrain-type shuttle system in the Rockaways. The Rockaways may fill buses, but one full-length train serves a lot more than a bus.

With Cuomo as MTA head, by the time the RBB is complete (if it ever is), the (A) from Howard Beach to Hammels will be the "sub train" and after Hammels the "sea level line".

Edited by R68OnBroadway

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2 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

The (M) is long if you send it to the Rockaways, which is really not worth it because all the stations south of Broad Channel scrape the bottom of the barrel when it comes to ridership. It only needs to go to Howard Beach, and maybe some trains could go to Rock Park during the summer.

Really, the Rockaways potential ridership is so small, it would probably be best to terminate all subway service at Howard Beach and run an AirTrain-type shuttle system in the Rockaways. The Rockaways may fill buses, but one full-length train serves a lot more than a bus.

What I would do if the RBB line went to Howard Beach:

-build a concrete platform over the southbound express track roadbed for the northbound express track

-construct a removable bridge (similar to the one on the 42nd st shuttle) between the southbound express track (now platform) and southbound local track platform at the northern end of the platforms

-use the former northbound express and local tracks to turn trains from the north

-use the southbound local track to turn a (H) -style Rockaway shuttle

(I would also build switches between the tracks north of the station so trains from any track could switch to another with ease.)

Edited by R68OnBroadway

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3 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

What I would do if the RBB line went to Howard Beach:

-build a concrete platform over the southbound express track roadbed for the northbound express track

-construct a removable bridge (similar to the one on the 42nd st shuttle) between the southbound express track (now platform) and southbound local track platform at the northern end of the platforms

-use the former northbound express and local tracks to turn trains from the north

-use the southbound local track to turn a (H) -style Rockaway shuttle

(I would also build switches between the tracks north of the station so trains from any track could switch to another with ease.)

All these RBB thoughts keep ignoring two important facts:

1) By economic and system design, the dominant travel orientation is to Manhattan, so any north-south routing like RBB will never have a ridership level high enough to justify a 8 to 10-car heavy rail construction cost because, except the Bronx, Manhattan is to the West; and

2) Adding route mileage isn't increasing capacity, it's only shifting where capacity issues begin to the East and South of where they are now.

So an elongated (M) or (G) doesn't solve any problem but the "I don't have a Subway near my house" problem - which really isn't a problem.

And as it stands, using RBB or elongating the two lines doesn't save time over using express buses, nor does it make QBL and Flushing more efficient in passenger movements.

So if you're going to imagine expansion, how would you expand to fix the SRO and capacity issues while creating new ridership?

 

AND GO...

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The simple solution is to build the provision from rego park to connect to the line, with a provision to  possible queens bypass and to sweeten the project is convert woodhaven to express 

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52 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

The simple solution is to build the provision from rego park to connect to the line, with a provision to  possible queens bypass and to sweeten the project is convert woodhaven to express 

You're still adding route miles and not relieving crowding or increasing capacity.

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2 hours ago, Deucey said:

All these RBB thoughts keep ignoring two important facts:

1) By economic and system design, the dominant travel orientation is to Manhattan, so any north-south routing like RBB will never have a ridership level high enough to justify a 8 to 10-car heavy rail construction cost because, except the Bronx, Manhattan is to the West; and

2) Adding route mileage isn't increasing capacity, it's only shifting where capacity issues begin to the East and South of where they are now.

So an elongated (M) or (G) doesn't solve any problem but the "I don't have a Subway near my house" problem - which really isn't a problem.

And as it stands, using RBB or elongating the two lines doesn't save time over using express buses, nor does it make QBL and Flushing more efficient in passenger movements.

So if you're going to imagine expansion, how would you expand to fix the SRO and capacity issues while creating new ridership?

AND GO...

A minor quibble: the dominant travel orientation is to Manhattan, or Midtown, more specifically. As such, the RBB is actually more oriented towards that then the scenic route on the (A) or (J) . But yes, it's really not necessary.

That being said, "the express buses are good enough" is not really a good argument, because the express buses cost so much to run. The subway is dirt cheap to operate and the marginal cost of pressing more bodies into the train is virtually nil.

Edited by bobtehpanda
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51 minutes ago, Deucey said:

You're still adding route miles and not relieving crowding or increasing capacity.

I get that and most of those who want the rbb want a better route to jamaica instead of being forced onto buses where they wil touch nassau county

Hell it can also qualify for the one seat ride to jfk which is why i added a queens bypass provision 

Edited by BreeddekalbL

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24 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

A minor quibble: the dominant travel orientation is to Manhattan, or Midtown, more specifically. As such, the RBB is actually more oriented towards that then the scenic route on the (A) or (J) . But yes, it's really not necessary.

That being said, "the express buses are good enough" is not really a good argument, because the express buses cost so much to run. The subway is dirt cheap and the marginal cost of pressing more bodies into the train is virtually nil.

What’s more, for many along the RBB corridor, the extra fare for express buses puts them economically out of reach. I agree with deucey insofar that we should capitalize on all extant transit options, and that should include express bus, but to capitalize on just one in ignorance of local demographics isn’t smart. 

In combination of all the stuff suggested above, I’d do a detiming of Fulton street to reduce travel times and increase reliability, eliminate skip stop on the (J)(Z) to shorten headways, and extend the (C) to Lefferts to increase capacity. Those improvements, combined with the above will frankly leave the Rockaways better off transportationally than many other areas of the city. Leave the RBB for when the MTA has leisure cash. 

Edited by RR503

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56 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Leave the RBB for when the MTA has leisure cash. 

And let those clowns who want the park win? No thanks, also for those who suggest lower Montauk any project there is dead since crowley lost.

Edited by BreeddekalbL
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I agree that any line on RBB has to go to Manhattan, so the (M) is the best choice. 

The people in the area DO HAVE LIMITED SUBWAY ACCESS! FYI only the Jamaica Line (J)(Z) passes through the area, not the (A). The (A) is AT THE END of the branch. Plus, this transit desert DOES have limited transit access! 

Do you really think riders would take an expensive express bus, only to get stuck in traffic! Or even take the Q52/53 SBS, only to stand on impossibly overcrowded subway platforms! They wouldn't be willing to take local service either because buses are slow!

Plus, this should be a high-priority project, compared to a petty Red Hook SAS extension or a stupid 125 St-JFK line. Those lines will NEVER produce enough demand, whereas RBB WOULD. 

A question for VG8, Deucey, and BM5: Do you really think a random park splat out in the middle of nowhere would attract tourists? There are millions of parks around the city and the only ones that are very popular are in Manhattan. And you could say "well the HighLine gets a lot of traffic" but firstly, it's in Manhattan. No one will go to a park that is splat out in the middle of nowhere, not to mention where could potentially be a very high crime rate. These Queensway clowns should LOSE, be forced to deal with it and support a renovation of Forest Park. 

Plus, the (M) won't necessarily be long if it goes to Howard Beach. If it goes to Rockaway Park yes, but it could run down there with 20 minute headways since most will terminate at Howard Beach. Plus, the Forest Hills layups will finally have capacity to spare and now the (G) could return there with the (R)

If Woodhaven was converted into an express stop, this would greatly take relief off of Roosevelt Av. Another short-term solution to reduce crowding would be to construct a third track on the Jamaica Line east of Broadway Jct, and have the (Z) go express to Broad while the (J) becomes the full-time local. This would reduce crowding in the sense that it would allow a faster commute downtown. A long-term solution to reduce overcrowding wold be to construct the 63 St-QB Bypass. 

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