New Fare Payment Thread

[Union Tpke]

Posts on the replacement for the MetroCard can be found in so many different topics, it is hard to navigate. Perhaps it would be a good idea to have a centralized topic for it.

Quote

http://web.mta.info/capitaldashboard/15_19/agencies/t/t7040401_project_narrative.htm

 

http://web.mta.info/capitaldashboard/CPDHome.html

MTA is implementing a new "contactless" (smart card) far e payment system that is based on open payment standards, and more particularly, chip-embedded bank card technology, at all of our operating agencies. Our customers will have the convenience of paying their fare with their own contactless bank card, either a credit or debit card, by tapping the card on a card reader at entry to our various transportation services. We will offer an MTA-issued smart card for those customers who otherwise only have or prefer to use cash for payment so that they may h ave the same access, including for reloading EZ Pass accounts. This system will be implemented at all MTA agencies. This means that ultimately one card can act as an intermodal pass, allowing the same customer to ride all of MTA's services seamlessly in one trip. The system will be phased in by agency, starting with NYCT. At NYCT, this system will replace MetroCard. The project includes: purchase and installation of contactless readers at all subway stations and on buses; a back end system to manage cus tomer accounts and payment processing, data collection, and reporting; design and installation of a robust TCP/IP Ethernet based communications network at all subway stations to support transaction processing; and purchase and installation of vending machines in stations. Some schedule dates are not available, due to project being under development.

 

[bobtehpanda]

Whoo, the MTA has finally got its head out of its ass and figured out it needs to process payments.

[Lance]

Call me when the timeframe moves from "within the next 3-5 years."

[Deucey]

On 10/18/2017 at 8:31 AM, Lance said:

Call me when the timeframe moves from "within the next 3-5 years."

Ring ring:

"The MTA is ready to roll out a new payment system to completely replace the Metrocard by 2023 — and riders will be able to start using the system by early 2019, according to details obtained by The Post."

http://nypost.com/2017/10/20/mta-gets-ready-to-dump-the-metrocard/

[QM1to6Ave]

I don't like the idea of having people tap their card at the door of an SBS bus--this will slow people down when the system doesn't work or they don't know what they are doing now. Now, they wast time confused at the SBS machine BEFORE the bus arrives

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

I don't like the idea of having people tap their card at the door of an SBS bus--this will slow people down when the system doesn't work or they don't know what they are doing now. Now, they wast time confused at the SBS machine BEFORE the bus arrives

We can only hope that tap and go will be a feature on the bus that is not just available at the front door, otherwise it will slow people down.

[RailRunRob]

Why wouldn't you just upgrade the machines for tap to pay? The MTA is late to the party none of this technology is new. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

Why wouldn't you just upgrade the machines for tap to pay? The MTA is late to the party none of this technology is new. 

You're missing the point.  Whatever the new payment system is, it needs to be faster than the current one and not involve adding more things like SBS machines with a ton of paper wasted.  The new machine should accept payment without any paper, and if your form of payment needs to be verified, have some sort of handheld device that can do that electronically. They need to cut down on the maintenance of SBS machines and MVM machines.  Simply too costly and too much waste.  

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

I don't like the idea of having people tap their card at the door of an SBS bus--this will slow people down when the system doesn't work or they don't know what they are doing now. Now, they wast time confused at the SBS machine BEFORE the bus arrives

....nullifying the time savings from off-board payment via the TVM's.

[RailRunRob]

The physical input is still going to be there no matter what. The basic input and deduction need to happen regardless. The time saved is measured in being able to manage and refill one's account without interaction with a vending machine on the fly.  Plus the time saved with having to input Magnetic strip cards and read and spit it back out. Tap and move save a few seconds. Still faster off bus. You don't have to use paper? Fare checkers have a reader. It verifies  2 hours or less since the card being tapped. Red no... green yes. easy solution they can start with paper if needed and move up.  I did this in San Diego two weeks ago. You tap the card before you enter the Lightrail.

[N6 Limited]

Off board payment helps when it comes to SRO buses and not having to walk through the riders that won't go beyond the middle of the bus

[RailRunRob]

27 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Off board payment helps when it comes to SRO buses and not having to walk through the riders that won't go beyond the middle of the bus

Indeed. It's not that hard If you do a competitive analysis there are tons of Cities that do offboard fares that have moved to tap to pay already. We should be learning from both there pains and gains. As I said before the SD Trolley  is off board payment with inspectors you tap before you get on and the inspectors tap to check if that time comes. It's been done already. True New York has a bigger system but the framework is there.

[Around the Horn]

1 hour ago, RailRunRob said:

Why wouldn't you just upgrade the machines for tap to pay? The MTA is late to the party none of this technology is new. 

All of the MVMs, SBS machines and turnstiles can support contactless cards. The MVMs and SBS machines already have space for the card target allocated, the target and related wiring just needs to be installed. For the turnstiles, you just need to swap out the top portion (with MetroCard mag stripe) for a new one with a card target (see the E-Tix turnstiles for a good example of what I mean).

[RailRunRob]

14 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

All of the MVMs, SBS machines and turnstiles can support contactless cards. The MVMs and SBS machines already have space for the card target allocated, the target and related wiring just needs to be installed. For the turnstiles, you just need to swap out the top portion (with MetroCard mag stripe) for a new one with a card target (see the E-Tix turnstiles for a good example of what I mean).

I figured as much. Why I'm wondering what the issues are ? There really just an encasements for the components. SBS Machines the cost, for the most part, would go into utility and electrical ducts allocation. You could run these things off of an ARM Processor with Android or a light version of Linux. Pennies on the dollar for these components especially in bulk.

[bobtehpanda]

9 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

Why wouldn't you just upgrade the machines for tap to pay? The MTA is late to the party none of this technology is new. 

The real question is why we would want to reuse some Windows 2000 POS crapware for the sake of reusing it. Modern smartcard readers are the same size as a credit card payment terminal, and it would be totally feasible to install two by each door.

Examples from Seattle, Hong Kong, and Toronto

[RailRunRob]

4 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

The real question is why we would want to reuse some Windows 2000 POS crapware for the sake of reusing it. Modern smartcard readers are the same size as a credit card payment terminal, and it would be totally feasible to install two by each door.

Examples from Seattle, Hong Kong, and Toronto

 

Read my comments above upgrade the machines. Crapware out of the picture. Second I'm aware of the technology but the human interaction is still there. If 15-20% of riders taps get rejected due to balance or error wouldn't you still want to take care of that off board?  Especially with SBS routes how would you solve for that possible delay? Could work for some routes like the S79 but higher volume routes I'm not completely sold. Get the standard in place and scale up it's nothing to test on certain routes and add readers down the line.

[MassTransitHonchkrow]

I'm wondering if incentives will be available for those on the EasyPay Program. I don't have to deal with the credit card shutdowns.

 

Now would be a good time for people to wean their dependence on TVMs. Once their maintenance costs are out of the picture, I think it'd be more than "fare" for us to pay at 2007 levels.

[bobtehpanda]

3 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

Read my comments above upgrade the machines. Crapware out of the picture. Second I'm aware of the technology but the human interaction is still there. If 15-20% of riders taps get rejected due to balance or error wouldn't you still want to take care of that off board?  Especially with SBS routes how would you solve for that possible delay? Could work for some routes like the S79 but higher volume routes I'm not completely sold. Get the standard in place and scale up it's nothing to test on certain routes and add readers down the line.

It's a solved process in other cities, which rely on the random enforcement officers you see on SBS services. New York is not some kind of special snowflake city filled with a special kind of idiot.

The way it works in other cities, pass riders don't necessarily have to tap. They can for validation purposes, but if you think about it, they already paid for the pass so they're not actually paying for anything with a tap, and fare inspectors can tell with their validators what the heck is on that pass. (Yes, the validators are about the size of a payment terminal, so they can comfortably fit in most bags)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, bobtehpanda said:

It's a solved process in other cities, which rely on the random enforcement officers you see on SBS services. New York is not some kind of special snowflake city filled with a special kind of idiot.

Someone with common sense around here instead this damn ideology crap.

[N6 Limited]

11 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

It's a solved process in other cities, which rely on the random enforcement officers you see on SBS services. New York is not some kind of special snowflake city filled with a special kind of idiot.

 

The MTA seems to think so, haha.

9 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Someone with common sense around here instead this damn ideology crap.

I made a suggestion a while ago that the MTA get double decker buses and many were like "That won't work here, people will fall down the stairs!" 

[RailRunRob]

26 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

It's a solved process in other cities, which rely on the random enforcement officers you see on SBS services. New York is not some kind of special snowflake city filled with a special kind of idiot.

Not what I asked!  I asked you how do you compensate for the time possibly lost to delays.  Card error's and Fare refills what's the difference between that and someone holding service with trying to figure out their balance with a Metrocard? Doesn't that add up? Why wouldn't you roll the standard out and test.  I just said I was in SD 2 weeks ago why would I think anything else besides random enforcement officers? Your tell me what I've stated already.

 

24 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Someone with common sense around here instead this damn ideology crap.

I design platforms and software were for a living I have some background on the subject standard questions. I deal with and research people for a living. I have a IT tech guy that maintains and another that complains.  The world doesn't revolve around us. If the technology isnt helping to make life easier then what are we talking about?  How people interface is a big part of it. Roll out the NFC standard test and scale. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

I design platforms and software were for a living I have some background on the subject standard questions. I deal with and research people for a living. I have a IT tech guy that maintains and another that complains.  The world doesn't revolve around us. If the technology is helping to make life easier then what are we talking about?  How people interface is a big part of it. Roll out the NFC standard test and scale. 

That's all fine and good, but I don't think half of the forum members understand what you're talking about half of the time.  

[Via Garibaldi 8]

11 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

I made a suggestion a while ago that the MTA get double decker buses and many were like "That won't work here, people will fall down the stairs!" 

I actually am not a fan of those things.  The  ran a pilot test and they were concerned about them banging into trees and the like.

[RailRunRob]

1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That's all fine and good, but I don't think half of the forum members understand what you're talking about half of the time.  

Well, all you have to do is ask.

[bobtehpanda]

5 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

Not what I asked!  I asked you how do you compensate for the time possibly lost to delays.  Card error's and Fare refills what's the difference between that and someone holding service with trying to figure out their balance with a Metrocard? Doesn't that add up? Why wouldn't you roll the standard out and test.  I just said I was in SD 2 weeks ago why would I think anything else besides random enforcement officers? 

If there are multiple readers on the bus, and there's an error, you can walk to another one on the bus and tap there. This is how they do it in other places.

You can't even do fare refills on the bus today, so why is that even a concern?