The Crime of being short $2.75: Policing communities of color at the turnstile

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Click the image below to visit an interactive version of the report on fare evasion arrests and the criminalization of poverty on Brooklyn public transit. The read the full print version of the report visit The Crime of Being Short $2.75 (http://www.cssny.org/publications/entry/the-crime-of-being-short-2.75)

The read the full report visit http://www.cssny.org/publications/entry/the-crime-of-being-short-2.75

 

 

 

 

 

[MHV9218]

I'm impressed you posted this. Do you agree with any of the findings or recommendations? They're contrary to most of your rhetoric for the past months.

[Porter]

I find it rather difficult to undertake the mental gymnastics necessary to assume that since 90% of the arrests are of Black/Hispanic offenders, then the cause must be that the police specifically target them and ignore the others. It is at least equally possible that 90% of the fare-evaders indeed fit that description, and that the majority of people who are poor but non-Black/Hispanic don't evade the fare. It's probably criminalized because it's, well, theft, specifically a theft of service. I sympathize with struggling with the high costs demanded by the , but the law is the law and stealing is stealing. To help the poor, transit should be subsidized.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, Skipper said:

I find it rather difficult to undertake the mental gymnastics necessary to assume that since 90% of the arrests are of Black/Hispanic offenders, then the cause must be that the police specifically target them and ignore the others. It is at least equally possible that 90% of the fare-evaders indeed fit that description, and that the majority of people who are poor but non-Black/Hispanic don't evade the fare. It's probably criminalized because it's, well, theft, specifically a theft of service. I sympathize with struggling with the high costs demanded by the , but the law is the law and stealing is stealing. To help the poor, transit should be subsidized.

I think that's the case as well. Last night I was down at the Central Park West and West 81st station refilling a Metrocard.  The token booth clerk was in another world sitting there reading or something. As I was leaving the station to walk up to street level for the express bus, this skinny kid slid right under the turnstile and went on about his business, and the token booth clerk didn't even notice.  

[trainfan22]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I think that's the case as well. Last night I was down at the Central Park West and West 81st station refilling a Metrocard.  The token booth clerk was in another world sitting there reading or something. As I was leaving the station to walk up to street level for the express bus, this skinny kid slid right under the turnstile and went on about his business, and the token booth clerk didn't even notice.  

There's nothing Token Booth clerks can do about farebeaters, I walked though the gate/hopped the turnstile with those clerks looking right at me and nothing happened.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

There's nothing Token Booth clerks can do about farebeaters, I walked though the gate/hopped the turnstile with those clerks looking right at me and nothing happened.

Surely they can notify the police if there are some nearby.  Some stations do have an NYPD location within the station.  Union Square, 145th street and a few other stations have them.

[NY1635]

3 hours ago, Skipper said:

I find it rather difficult to undertake the mental gymnastics necessary to assume that since 90% of the arrests are of Black/Hispanic offenders, then the cause must be that the police specifically target them and ignore the others. It is at least equally possible that 90% of the fare-evaders indeed fit that description, and that the majority of people who are poor but non-Black/Hispanic don't evade the fare. It's probably criminalized because it's, well, theft, specifically a theft of service. I sympathize with struggling with the high costs demanded by the , but the law is the law and stealing is stealing. To help the poor, transit should be subsidized.

This study must have been done in predominately black and Hispanic neighborhoods around the city, specifically where they access the bus and subway to get to work. It doesn't seem to factor in the context of why they are being stopped, not understanding that the cops are just enforcing the law and have nothing against minorities. They're just being paid to act professional and enforce the law when necessary.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

20 minutes ago, NY1635 said:

This study must have been done in predominately black and Hispanic neighborhoods around the city, specifically where they access the bus and subway to get to work. It doesn't seem to factor in the context of why they are being stopped, not understanding that the cops are just enforcing the law and have nothing against minorities. They're just being paid to act professional and enforce the law when necessary.

I don't know if I buy that.  Let's not kid ourselves.  In my neighborhood, I rarely see cops, and when I do it's usually during the Jewish holidays, or we had some hooligans running around in the neighborhood from down the hill causing problems, otherwise the police are a rare sight. I see actual police officers in my area once or twice a year tops patrolling and that's about it, and when I do, I usually do a double-take.  Areas with low crime will naturally have a low police presence, but I don't necessarily buy the idea that minorities aren't being targeted.  Officers are known to have quotas to fill, and those quotas can be easily fulfilled in high-crime areas, which tend be minority majority.  What we do have in my neighborhood, and particularly on my block are TONS of traffic cops patrolling.  They seem to hit the jackpot writing people up for not moving their cars for Sanitation, so I see them a few times a week.

I should add that I have a few friends that are NYPD cops so I hear what they go through on a daily basis.  One currently works primarily in Bay Ridge, but he started out in Flatbush, in the mainly black parts patrolling and the like.

 

 

4 hours ago, MHV9218 said:

I'm impressed you posted this. Do you agree with any of the findings or recommendations? They're contrary to most of your rhetoric for the past months.

I don't know why.  I posted it mainly for discussion, but I still believe that many that do fare beat have the money to pay the fare. They just choose to do otherwise.  However, I do believe that some cops are targeting areas of color to meet quotas.  I think they're alive and well (quotas that is), and when push comes to shove, you do what you have to to comply with the demands of your superiors.  That said, I don't pretend to have any answers.  I have friends that are NYPD cops (good cops I may add) who do a tough job trying to protect this city and I don't envy the hell they go through on a daily basis for a thankless job.

[bobtehpanda]

We all know the quota system exists. This is not a issue with shades of grey. Sure, people of color may be more likely to do it anyways, but it's about equal enforcement. I don't see this type of enforcement at Rockefeller Center, or 81st-MoNH, or 86 St-Lex, or Flushing-Main St the way I do in black and Hispanic neighborhoods, when those stations are much busier and definitely have people farebeating.

[Deucey]

8 hours ago, NY1635 said:

This study must have been done in predominately black and Hispanic neighborhoods around the city, specifically where they access the bus and subway to get to work. It doesn't seem to factor in the context of why they are being stopped, not understanding that the cops are just enforcing the law and have nothing against minorities. They're just being paid to act professional and enforce the law when necessary.

1) If you read it, you’d know the study was based on arrest and citation records in Brooklyn, not the parts of Brooklyn where minorities are predominate.

2) If you believe all cops are “just enforcing the law and have nothing against minorities”, then you a) are one of those people with heads in the sand ignoring reality to live in fantasy land; b) really don’t understand how racism is pervasive in the US - and more so in passive/microaggressive form in the Union than the Confederacy ; and c) never read or don’t understand the phenomenon of Confirmation Bias.

[CenSin]

6 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

We all know the quota system exists. This is not a issue with shades of grey. Sure, people of color may be more likely to do it anyways, but it's about equal enforcement. I don't see this type of enforcement at Rockefeller Center, or 81st-MoNH, or 86 St-Lex, or Flushing-Main St the way I do in black and Hispanic neighborhoods, when those stations are much busier and definitely have people farebeating.

From y perspective, the police are in the right places. Their presence is most noticeable where farebeating is the most common. It’s amusing to me why cops can set up shop in Coney Island all the time and farebeaters will still attempt to jump the turnstiles, regularly getting caught while other stations with rarely any cops will have no farebeaters (that I have seen). Flushing is one of those stations with high use and low farebeating rate. Canal Street is one of those stations with high use and high farebeating rate—along with frequent presence of cops and arrests. I just think that the cops are setting up in stations where they will get the most farebeaters.

[NY1635]

9 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

We all know the quota system exists. This is not a issue with shades of grey. Sure, people of color may be more likely to do it anyways, but it's about equal enforcement. I don't see this type of enforcement at Rockefeller Center, or 81st-MoNH, or 86 St-Lex, or Flushing-Main St the way I do in black and Hispanic neighborhoods, when those stations are much busier and definitely have people farebeating.

That type of enforcement isn't needed at Rockefeller Center that station is traveling right under private property. Rockefeller Center have their own security guards and they usually shut the entrance to the subway leading into the shops when all the shops and restaurants are closed after 11pm or around midnight.

[RailRunRob]

Class and race straddle the line so closely. Let's not take our eyes off the ball. A great amount of this is due to circumstance. Understanding Potential, Opportunities, Communication, and Guidance. Everyone here is the sum of what information he or she has taken in.  Solve these and everything else will follow.   

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Let's all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. 

[RailRunRob]

7 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Let's all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. 

Listen do you want  the Truth?  Or do we feel better by having a talking point and saying someones beneath us? You don't sound like a man on a mission and the world's a fairly complex place.  

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

Listen do you want to the Truth?  Or do we feel better by having a talking point and saying someones beneath us? You don't sound like a man on a mission and the world's a fairly complex place.  

That's interesting because you sure as hell talk a good game without saying much.  As far as I'm concerned, I do my part helping youth to better themselves on a regular basis, so you can think whatever you want, but yes, why do you spill the beans with the truth.

[RailRunRob]

16 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That's interesting because you sure as hell talk a good game without saying much.  As far as I'm concerned, I do my part helping youth to better themselves on a regular basis, so you can think whatever you want, but yes, why do you spill the beans with the truth.

 

Not much to say as you said action. Not anything to think I see it we have an intern program. You see it with the kids you help this isn't directed to you.. It's not about us it's about the standards in place you don't have to look any further than this report. But I Just asked if you wanted the truth?  There no way logically anyone can think people are jumping fare because they want to. Who wants to risk their freedom for $2.75? But I talk to people that see it that way. I see sympathy day in and day out but that's not really whats needed! Empathy now that could help we need more of it to go around. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

 

Not much to say as you said action. Not anything to think I see it we have an intern program. You see it with the kids you help this isn't directed to you.. It's not about us it's about the standards in place you don't have to look any further than this report. But I Just asked if you wanted the truth?  There no way logically anyone can think people are jumping fare because they want to. Who wants to risk their freedom for $2.75?

I think you're a bit naïve. I've said that before.  Some really don't care what happens if they jump the turnstile.   

[RailRunRob]

43 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I think you're a bit naïve. I've said that before.  Some really don't care what happens if they jump the turnstile.   

I think it's more understanding the nature of people. Building Wealth and affecting the people you can reach.  I'm out here with the Wolves daily with the disciples of Ayn Rand and The 48 Laws of Power mental warfare perpetual chess. So I'm from the school of laissez-faire the strongest survive but with that said when you see multiple generational headstarts not just in wealth but morals ethics principles and those same people tell someone everything things fine it's you your not trying or applying get over it. That's kinda hard to overlook. Especially when you know most of these folks wouldn't be able to survive in a truly laissez-faire environment most of the population isn't built for conflict and pressure. So I don't think its Naïveté I'm trying to understand why some people feel their comments have validity for others? Again not direct towards you Just my point of view and experience.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

19 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

I think it's more understanding the nature of people. Building Wealth and affecting the people you can reach.  I'm out here with the Wolves daily with the disciples of Ayn Rand and The 48 Laws of Power mental warfare perpetual chess. So I'm from the school of laissez-faire the strongest survive but with that said when you see multiple generational headstarts not just in wealth but morals ethics principles and those same people tell someone everything things fine it's you your not trying or applying get over it. That's kinda hard to overlook. Especially when you know most of these folks wouldn't be able to survive in a truly laissez-faire environment most of the population isn't built for conflict and pressure. So I don't think its Naïveté I'm trying to understand why some people feel their comments have validity for others? Again not direct towards you Just my point of view and experience.

It's called being accountable, which our society doesn't seem to think matters anymore. At the end of the day, we can make all of the excuses as to how it isn't someone's fault that they jumped the turnstile, but if you do the crime then you have to pay for it. You seem to be advocating for a pass for these sorts of things and I think that sends the wrong message because if we're supposed to excuse this behavior then what's the point of anyone paying for their fare?  All of the other factors are secondary.  Sometimes I wonder if you live in reality.

[RailRunRob]

1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It's called being accountable, which our society doesn't seem to think matters anymore. At the end of the day, we can make all of the excuses as to how it isn't someone's fault that they jumped the turnstile, but if you do the crime then you have to pay for it. You seem to be advocating for a pass for these sorts of things and I think that sends the wrong message because if we're supposed to excuse this behavior then what's the point of anyone paying for their fare?  All of the other factors are secondary.  Sometimes I wonder if you live in reality.

 

I'm in no way an advocate for a lawless society. That's not what I'm saying and not in all cases but how do you hold someone accountable when there's a huge gap in understanding?. Now I get your point with sending the wrong messages but in most cases, the crime and punishment handed out are trumped up and overblown. The message I'm getting is almost like telling someone to swim against you with an arm tied behind there back in some cases both arms tied And then actually judging there performance based on you swimming under normal conditions. How is this different? I'm not saying we shouldn't be holding people accountable and they shouldn't be held to a standard. It's just the empathy to understand that your standards aren't everyone's especially if they didn't have same teachers in life and environment. That's my point. The Assumption that person knows and this a free will choice is an oversimplification of peoples situations. But yes write the ticket and send the message. And take someone in that's not complying but start from a point of respect and work your way down.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, RailRunRob said:

I'm in no way an advocate for a lawless society. That's not what I'm saying and not in all cases but how do you hold someone accountable when there's a huge gap in understanding?. Now I get your point with sending the wrong messages but in most cases, the crime and punishment handed out are trumped up and overblown. The message I'm getting is almost like telling someone to swim against you with an arm tied behind there back in some cases both arms tied And then actually judging there performance based on you swimming under normal conditions. How is this different? I'm not saying we shouldn't be holding people accountable and they shouldn't be held to a standard. It's just the empathy to understand that your standards aren't everyone's especially if they didn't have same teachers in life and environment. That's my point. The Assumption that person knows and this a free will choice is an oversimplification of peoples situations. But yes write the ticket and send the message. And take someone in that's not complying but start from a point of respect and work your way down.

Ultimately we all make decisions in life.  We can look at different circumstances and have empathy.  That's fine, but that doesn't change the facts.  I don't pretend to have the answers, but maybe the punishment could be changed.  I doubt most of the people caught actually pay the fines anyway.

[RailRunRob]

22 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Ultimately we all make decisions in life.  We can look at different circumstances and have empathy.  That's fine, but that doesn't change the facts.  I don't pretend to have the answers, but maybe the punishment could be changed.  I doubt most of the people caught actually pay the fines anyway.

Indeed we're fortunate to have had people in our lives to teach and guide us on how to make decisions I know I am. I don't have the answers as well im asking the questions and sharing my experiences and encounters. I Disagree with the facts not being able to change I guess because I'm from a world were a person could and has changed the facts and perspectives of many and will continue to do so both through Money and Technology. The punishment should be changed ive never had a negative encounter with the Police and I have friends that work in the department so it's easy to look away and their good folks but this is so in your face. A lot of those fines turn into warrants and into records for the inability to afford the ticket when the person couldn't pay the $2.75 in the 1st place. Just saying! 

[N6 Limited]

There are people who just duck under turnstiles, walk on the bus and pass the farebox, or habitually stand outside of stations asking for someone to swipe them in. I agree with Via Garibaldi 8 that many have the money to use the subway/bus but chose to spend it elsewhere. I've even had someone on the  train start a conversation balking at paying the fare as if the MTA doesn't deserve a penny from him. 

 

I'd also like to see stats on WHY these people are fare beating in the first place. Are they going to work/school? Most of them do not appear to be going to a productive destination. (no work attire/uniform, no backpack)

Do any of you swipe people in the subway? 

 

(On a side, note I remember a few years ago this lady was waving down cars in downtown Brooklyn (near a police station) because of a "family emergency" and didn't have gas/toll money to get back to Staten Island (and said the police couldnt help). I gave her like $5 pulled off. It's irresponsible when you live on Staten Island to drive somewhere and not have gas/toll money to return.

 

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

There are people who just duck under turnstiles, walk on the bus and pass the farebox, or habitually stand outside of stations asking for someone to swipe them in. I agree with Via Garibaldi 8 that many have the money to use the subway/bus but chose to spend it elsewhere. I've even had someone on the  train start a conversation balking at paying the fare as if the MTA doesn't deserve a penny from him. 

 

I'd also like to see stats on WHY these people are fare beating in the first place. Are they going to work/school? Most of them do not appear to be going to a productive destination. (no work attire/uniform, no backpack)

Do you swipe people in the subway? 

 

(On a side, note I remember a few years ago this lady was waving down cars in downtown Brooklyn near a because of a "family emergency" and didn't have gas/toll money to get back to Staten Island (with a supposedly police ) I gave her like $5 pulled off. It's irresponsible when you live on Staten Island to drive somewhere and not have gas/toll money to return.

 

 

A few months ago a bunch of black teens got on a B68 bus I was on.  I was making my way over to the X28 bus.  The driver waives them on because none of them were going to pay.  They get on and loudly start talking about what they were going to eat.  One of the mentioned that he had a $20 on him, but yet he didn't have money for the fare. Sometimes it's just an issue of them really believing that they are entitled to ride without paying, and that leads to issues elsewhere, so the question is why did he find it okay to pay for his food, but not okay to pay for his bus ride?  I don't see the difference.