DOT's Bus Lane Trickery

[B35 via Church]

17 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

Most of my trips starts from Hoffman Drive(when the Queens Blvd Line runs like ass) to Jamaica Avenue or Atlantic Avenue, at times, Liberty Avenue as well. It stays pretty crowded till Jamaica Avenue, then empties out again at Liberty with more people boarding as well. The A train doesn't help matters at Liberty with the amount of people transferring to the Q52 or Q53.

Northbound during the midday and evening hours, I'll give him that one, they're not that packed Northbound, and I don't ride it in the AM to have a say in that. But during the PM, the last time I rode the Q53, which was roughly 2 days ago due to signal problems at Forest Hills, I rode it from Jackson Heights to Atlantic Avenue(to catch the Q24) and there was a seated load from Jackson Heights to Hoffman, and it then got packed at Hoffman. The majority got off at Jamaica Avenue. When I got off at Atlantic Avenue, there were still standees on the bus. This was on an articulated bus as well.

Quote

I always used the QM15 on Saturdays starting going towards Queens in the morning and then leaving in the afternoon via the QM15 or sometimes the BM5.  By the afternoon, northbound, the crowds at Jamaica Avenue can be pretty intense. I got the impression that some of those people must go to school or something during then and that's the reason for some of the crowds.  Then you have all sorts of other businesses north of Jamaica with people shopping and the like, so given all of that it would make sense that the lines that run along Woodhaven Blvd get decent crowds. 

The man is trying to justify not having bus lanes on Woodhaven blvd. for his selfish reasons.... The embellishment of how many south Brooklynites would be affected by such a change is proof enough... That's too specific to his situation....

[FamousNYLover]

3 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

The man is trying to justify not having bus lanes on Woodhaven blvd. for his selfish reasons.... The embellishment of how many south Brooklynites would be affected by such a change is proof enough... That's too specific to his situation....

Rockaway Beach Lines really wouldn't help either because MTA build it, some new Rockaway Beach Lines stations will not be ADA accessible and I'm sure many neighborhood NIMBYs don't want trains near Woodhaven-Cross Bay Blvds and prefer less noise Q11/Q21/Q52/Q53 buses.

If MTA/DOT builds Rockaway Beach Line, it wouldn't draw Q52/Q53 passengers onto trains.

Even with 2nd Av  train running, majority of M15 SBS riders choose to ride M15 SBS.

 

[BrooklynBus]

8 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That unused right of way doesn't run the length of Woodhaven Blvd, and it's cheaper to spend millions on SBS service than billions on a subway.  It's very clear that something is needed along Woodhaven Blvd despite your denials.  You've written several articles on this Woodhaven Blvd situation now and while I partially agree with you, you've also done your own finagling of data to suit your agenda, so let's cut the BS here, like trying to underplay just how many riders use the buses along that corridor. Do you really think that artics aren't needed on the Q52 and Q53 just because you drove along there or took the bus a few times and happened to get on a bus that wasn't packed beyond belief?  I tutored in that area for several months on Saturday mornings. I would take the QM15 in from Midtown and QM15 out.  During my waits, I had a chance to see the overcrowding and sometimes would even use one of the buses to get me further up Woodhaven Blvd to have access to the BM5 when I finished early so I could get back to Manhattan quicker versus waiting longer for the QM15 and there were times when they would have empty buses start further up Woodhaven Blvd to address the overcrowding, so I don't doubt the ridership nor the need for artics.  You can talk about the cars traveling down that corridor all you want.  Buses should take priority over cars in this city.

In due time, the DOT can see how to accommodate drivers, but not before addressing the needs of those using public transportation despite all of the reasons you've provided. I understand that there are gaps in service that makes driving a necessity, but at the same time we cannot continue with the status quo.  Taking public transportation is a sacrifice that millions of New Yorkers make, even those of us that live in "transit deserts" like myself where there are no subways (the nearest subway for me is about a 20 minute walk).  If we don't start somewhere, we'll have a problem that only worsens with more and more of our streets turning into parking lots.  How about you do an article on how the city and the DOT needs to put a cap on the number of Uber and Lyft cars because they are causing an incredible amount of congestion in this city.  Those who haven't ditched the buses and subways for driving are now taking Ubers and that simply isn't sustainable given our finite amount of street space.  

The unused right of way travels all the way from the LIRR near Queens Blvd to Liberty Avenue. That is practically the entire length of Woodhaven Blvd except for one block and it is only a half mile to the east, certainly within walking distance since the city expects you to walk a half or three quarters of a mile to use SBS. 

And restoring the right of way is about $1.5 billion. Three miles for the cost of about 3/4 of a mile on the Second Avenue subway so it is cost effective. But you can ignore the facts if you wish and keep talking generalities how SBS will make everything easier when all logic shows it won't. 

When you saw all the overcrowding you must be talking about rush hours or beach traffic. If not what time of day did you see all this overcrowding if buses were not late? Yes, thirty minutes without a bus will make it overcrowded because the MTA does not know how to run service properly. That is why people take Uber and Lyft. Because they are fed up with the MTA and SBS won't make a difference in the number of Uber and Lyft cars. 

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

6 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

When you saw all the overcrowding you must be talking about rush hours or beach traffic. If not what time of day did you see all this overcrowding if buses were not late? Yes, thirty minutes without a bus will make it overcrowded because the MTA does not know how to run service properly. That is why people take Uber and Lyft. Because they are fed up with the MTA and SBS won't make a difference in the number of Uber and Lyft cars. 

You keep bringing up this point which is flat out wrong. I've seen Q53s during the late evenings that were packed, and Q53s during weekends that have flagged people. When they run on-time (or close to it), it can be a hassle dealing with the demand. When they're late, it's even worse. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

22 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

The unused right of way travels all the way from the LIRR near Queens Blvd to Liberty Avenue. That is practically the entire length of Woodhaven Blvd except for one block and it is only a half mile to the east, certainly within walking distance since the city expects you to walk a half or three quarters of a mile to use SBS. 

And restoring the right of way is about $1.5 billion. Three miles for the cost of about 3/4 of a mile on the Second Avenue subway so it is cost effective. But you can ignore the facts if you wish and keep talking generalities how SBS will make everything easier when all logic shows it won't. 

When you saw all the overcrowding you must be talking about rush hours or beach traffic. If not what time of day did you see all this overcrowding if buses were not late? Yes, thirty minutes without a bus will make it overcrowded because the MTA does not know how to run service properly. That is why people take Uber and Lyft. Because they are fed up with the MTA and SBS won't make a difference in the number of Uber and Lyft cars. 

Dude I specified earlier... Always on Saturdays, which is NOT rush hours, and this was NOT during the summer. You are in denial. 

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, Cait Sith said:

How about you actually ride them and stop being a spectator from a car? Because unlike you, I actually ride them during the rush hour and the weekends, and they get pretty packed with some semblance of a standing load.

They don't get packed ALL THE WAY down to the Rockaways. From every single time I've seen standing loads, the biggest drop off points tend to be at Jamaica Avenue and Liberty Avenue during the rush hour and the afternoon hours during the weekend, with Liberty being another big pick-up spot.

Hell, even the artics that I've have had standing loads in them Southbound, but not crush loads.

I use Woodhaven to get from Sheepshead Bay to Astoria. If I used the Q53, I would have to first take the B49 to the B25 to the B56 to the Q53 to the Q18 to the Q101. How long do you think that would take especially at 9 PM? How many fares would it cost? Maybe that is the reason myself and so many others drive. And now with the SBS I would be able to make a shorter trip using the B49, B82, B83, Q7, Q53, Q18 and  Q101. Wow, what an improvement? (I also could have used the B15 if there was a stop to transfer between that route and the Q53.)

and would I see a different number of bus passengers from the bus instead of from a car. 

I will concede that there may be off peak standing loads for short distances near Liberty and Jamaica Avenues because of people making short trips to get to the subway. But those people wouldn't benefit from SBS. The ones who will benefit the most are those from Rockaway whose bus stops are not eliminated and are riding past Jamaica Avenue. But his many of them are there. You even stated the buses are not packed down to the Rockaways (other than beach days when they are jammed.)

[BrooklynBus]

18 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

You keep bringing up this point which is flat out wrong. I've seen Q53s during the late evenings that were packed, and Q53s during weekends that have flagged people. When they run on-time (or close to it), it can be a hassle dealing with the demand. When they're late, it's even worse. 

And what is the headway during late evenings? Every 15 or 20 minutes? Maybe they just need to run more buses. That is no justification to spend all that money on SBS. 

[BrooklynBus]

8 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Dude I specified earlier... Always on Saturdays, which is NOT rush hours, and this was NOT during the summer. You are in denial. 

On Saturdays when the buses were operating on time or when they were late?

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Not only have you brought it to our attention, you're siding with it... So I'll take it up with you... If said editor wants to come on here & defend himself, he's more than willing - and I'll be right here to state my case.....

With that said, I never said anything about any numbers.... You have downplayed the amt. of bus riders along Woodhaven right along with the DOT... The difference is in the narratives being pushed that you do it & that the DOT does it..... Hell, you just did it with that statement about the Q52/53 carrying seated loads outside of rush hours & during beach season (summers).... To make like those routes don't get at least SRO outside of the rush is simply not true.....

Of course, the lesser the amt. of people you can convey that would benefit from bus lanes, the more you can justify Woodhaven blvd not benefitting from them.... You are definitely more pro-car than you are pro-transit & your never ending rhetoric specifically regarding Woodhaven Blvd. has gotten quite tiresome on this transit based forum.....

You're looking for nothing more than an audience wherever you can find it at this point.... Hate to break it to ya, but there are several ppl. on this forum that share the sentiment that although you make good points, they're the same good points over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.....

Diversity is not a foreign concept..... Try it sometime... It'll make you a more well-rounded writer.

How has DOT downplayed the number of daily bus riders. Are there more than 32,000 on the average? I have not disputed that number either. When I said there are no standing loads outside of rush hours or beach days, I am speaking from observations. I did say I will concede that some buses may get crowded for a short distance near Jamaica or Liberty. I also said I often see large crowds at those stops when buses are late, but I don't see them on the buses. Yes if I stopped my car and waited another ten minutes, I probably would see a crowded bus. I am not trying to mislead or distort anything.

I am definitely pro transit but I will fight for cars when I see the city deliberately ignoring their needs and making travel much more difficult without acknowledging that or denying it. 

When the MTA can indeed show the bus lanes and SBS are shortening passenger travel times significantly, then I will change my position. Using the words "saving travel time" so people should infer they mean passenger travel time when they are talking only about bus travel times is wrong and I will continue to fight that. Of course a bus that makes fewer stops is saving travel time. That does not mean that people are making their trips any quicker. That is what they need to prove to justify the extra expense. They have not done so. 

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, Cait Sith said:

Most of my trips starts from Hoffman Drive(when the Queens Blvd Line runs like ass) to Jamaica Avenue or Atlantic Avenue, at times, Liberty Avenue as well. It stays pretty crowded till Jamaica Avenue, then empties out again at Liberty with more people boarding as well. The A train doesn't help matters at Liberty with the amount of people transferring to the Q52 or Q53.

Northbound during the midday and evening hours, I'll give him that one, they're not that packed Northbound, and I don't ride it in the AM to have a say in that. But during the PM, the last time I rode the Q53, which was roughly 2 days ago due to signal problems at Forest Hills, I rode it from Jackson Heights to Atlantic Avenue(to catch the Q24) and there was a seated load from Jackson Heights to Hoffman, and it then got packed at Hoffman. The majority got off at Jamaica Avenue. When I got off at Atlantic Avenue, there were still standees on the bus. This was on an articulated bus as well.

It got packed at Hoffman Dr. during the PM rush? I would not dispute that. 

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, FamousNYLover said:

BrooklynBus, take look at this video I found. Majority of Woodhaven-Cross Bay Blvd passengers don't like leaving left behind because of overcrowded bus. I assume this is Q53 heading to Rockaways by JC Penny in background.

Q52/Q53 dies run after Belt Parkway and mostly only several people go to Broad Channel. In summer season, majority of beach goers onboard Q52/Q53 stay on bus to Rockaways, which is good amount of people.

 

The man sounds like a nut. Anyway without knowing the time of the video, it doesn't mean much. Buses are frequently operated violating federal law with passengers in front of the white line. The MTA does not follow its service guidelines on crowding and frequently does not schedule enough service. 

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, FamousNYLover said:

I also agree Bus Lane is needed and MTA and DOT makes sure bus lanes are not in narrow streets.

Portion of Woodhaven-Cross Bay Blvds are wide enough to have one bus lane in each direction.

Q52/Q53 SBS boarding could be similar to Bx6 SBS's Median Island at Yankees Stadium and Sheridan which makes bus riders, subway riders, and baseball  fans safety cross 161st St with median bus boarding.

The width of a street does not determine if bus lanes are needed. The frequency of bus service and the amount of other traffic do. The bus lanes would not be so bad if they were in the service roads and were not in effect during non rush hours when the buses are already traveling at average speeds greater than 20 mph. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

58 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

On Saturdays when the buses were operating on time or when they were late?

It was obvious that crowding was a problem on many instances because they would send up empty buses. There is no doubt in my mind that both lines need artics. Even in the morning getting off of the QM15 there would be sizable crowds.

[BrooklynBus]

45 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It was obvious that crowding was a problem on many instances because they would send up empty buses. There is no doubt in my mind that both lines need artics. Even in the morning getting off of the QM15 there would be sizable crowds.

You didn't answer if the buses were crowded because they were late.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

47 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

You didn't answer if the buses were crowded because they were late.

I wouldn't know. Most of the time I was waiting for the QM15, but either way, the crowds would build after I arrived.

[BrooklynBus]

9 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I wouldn't know. Most of the time I was waiting for the QM15, but either way, the crowds would build after I arrived.

Even if the buses were not late, a crowd does not mean you need SBS. I doubt it if any route in the city has greater crowding than the B1 at Kingsborough. I waited there for an hour once between 12 and 1 in the afternoon and counted 1,500 people  getting on the B1 and B49. Most of them were on the B1. At 3 PM it's even worse. Yet neither route merits SBS or even Limited service. 

All my predictions for the B44 SBS came true, and I believe my predictions for Woodhaven will also be correct. It will be a disaster for traffic especially without any slip lanes. Drivers will not stand for being trapped in traffic for 15 minutes without being able to make a legal turn for a mile. They will make illegal turns and violate the bus lane and there will be accidents because of it. Let's just hope no one is killed. A single accident will close down the boulevard for at least a mile. 

[bobtehpanda]

15 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Haven't you realized by now that the problem is not the money? It's the will. Politicians can find money for any project they want to fund. They are going to find money for 21 new SBS routes in the next ten years although they still haven't proven that it helps more than it hurts. Each route costs about $3 million more to operate each year. So with the 14 we already have, that equals 35 routes or over $100 million annually or $1 billion in ten years just in additional operating costs not considering inflation. 

Add to that the construction and DOT's ongoing costs to maintain lanes and signage. If each route costs only $15 million to construct, that's another $.5 billion. So where is that $1.5 billion coming from if the pot is empty? They are finding ways like linking SBS to Vision Zero to tap that funding. 

And what about the $4 billion for Cuomo's LGA link that doesn't even reduce trip times from Manhattan but only helps the real estate industry and a few Long Islanders who use LGA. He bypassed the MTA for that one and just ordered it done because he wants to do it. Where is that money coming from? They can certainly find $1.5 billion for Queens Rail if the political will was there. 

QueensRail is cost effective costing one sixth of what the SAS costs per mile. It makes sense even as a subway costing a little more than above ground. 

Maybe the answer is to reduce construction costs so that it doesn't cost more here than anyone else to build a deep tunnel subway (which would not be necessary in Queens). Maybe we shouldn't have spent the last 50 years building East Side Access which is always five years away from opening with its benefits that are not worth $12 billion. Wait until Brooklyn finds out that this "improvement" will reduce the Atlantic branch to a subway forcing you to switch platforms and walk up and downstairs to transfer at Jamaica. 

Money is not the problem. The problem is transportation is only improved when real estate benefits. (E.g. #7 extension) They do not care about the riders.

Quite frankly, even in a utopia where planning was done according to objective metrics, the RBB would rank pretty low on the priority list. It's less dense than Nostrand or Utica Avs, it's less busy than Pelham Pkwy, it's not as connective as TriboroRX, and it doesn't have the potential to improve network efficiency in subway-starved areas the way extensions further east into Queens do. As it is the RBB would basically just draw riders from the existing Q11/21/52/53 and some express buses - the area lacks north-south subway service, but it doesn't lack subway service. The only reason we talk about it in any serious shape or form is because it might be cheaper to build, but the utility also isn't really that high.

If most traffic on Woodhaven is regional in nature, then adding a subway line to it will do jack s*** to divert cars. How useful is a line going from the Rockaways to Rego Park going to be if your origin is, say, south Brooklyn? And this is the dirty secret of all transit planning, that no one actually diverts trips from cars, it just allows people to make trips on the train to avoid the traffic, but traffic will stay the same because for every driver that leaves another takes its place. Diverted trips from cars, for example, make up a very small share of the ridership projections of the Second Avenue Subway. A RBB line would not be all that different.

[Cait Sith]

6 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

It got packed at Hoffman Dr. during the PM rush? I would not dispute that. 

 

10pm.

[B35 via Church]

11 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

How has DOT downplayed the number of daily bus riders. Are there more than 32,000 on the average? I have not disputed that number either. When I said there are no standing loads outside of rush hours or beach days, I am speaking from observations. I did say I will concede that some buses may get crowded for a short distance near Jamaica or Liberty. I also said I often see large crowds at those stops when buses are late, but I don't see them on the buses. Yes if I stopped my car and waited another ten minutes, I probably would see a crowded bus. I am not trying to mislead or distort anything.

I am definitely pro transit but I will fight for cars when I see the city deliberately ignoring their needs and making travel much more difficult without acknowledging that or denying it. 

When the MTA can indeed show the bus lanes and SBS are shortening passenger travel times significantly, then I will change my position. Using the words "saving travel time" so people should infer they mean passenger travel time when they are talking only about bus travel times is wrong and I will continue to fight that. Of course a bus that makes fewer stops is saving travel time. That does not mean that people are making their trips any quicker. That is what they need to prove to justify the extra expense. They have not done so. 

Significantly greater (as in, thousands more than that), no.... But at the same time, I don't exactly trust the numbers that are put out there either... I only use these numbers as talking points, which is why I don't bother w/ much of any arguing of stats & figures down to the tee..... Your potential stating of any concession won't amount to much, when the basis of your stance is centered around bus lanes not being worth it for Woodhaven (blvd)..... As if bus usage (and frequency) along Woodhaven Blvd is so low that it's preposterous to have it implemented.....

You say you're pro-transit, but at the same time, you're arguing against bus lanes for one of the most heavily utilized corridors (or whatever you want to call it) in the city.... You are fusing your criticisms for SBS with that of bus lanes & I'm here to extract it..... I'm not arguing (as in, siding with) the MTA's nut-busting session of SBS all over the place, I'm specifically commenting on the supposed uselessness of bus lanes......

11 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I use Woodhaven to get from Sheepshead Bay to Astoria. If I used the Q53, I would have to first take the B49 to the B25 to the B56 to the Q53 to the Q18 to the Q101. How long do you think that would take especially at 9 PM? How many fares would it cost? Maybe that is the reason myself and so many others drive. And now with the SBS I would be able to make a shorter trip using the B49, B82, B83, Q7, Q53, Q18 and  Q101. Wow, what an improvement? (I also could have used the B15 if there was a stop to transfer between that route and the Q53.)

and would I see a different number of bus passengers from the bus instead of from a car. 

I will concede that there may be off peak standing loads for short distances near Liberty and Jamaica Avenues because of people making short trips to get to the subway. But those people wouldn't benefit from SBS. The ones who will benefit the most are those from Rockaway whose bus stops are not eliminated and are riding past Jamaica Avenue. But his many of them are there. You even stated the buses are not packed down to the Rockaways (other than beach days when they are jammed.)

Now it should be no secret on here that I'm an advocate for bus travel, but there is nothing saying that you have to take nothing but buses from Sheepshead Bay to Astoria.... You can't get to everywhere in a city of this gargantuan proportion you need to go in two or less bus routes.... Come on with this.... One size will never fit all....  How am I saying this to someone of your magnitude that was a former planner for the MTA? Sure enough, the MTA isn't (and can't) fill every void in the system, but how about (quote-unquote) the reason behind people doing as much driving in this city being that they don't want to be on top of people, having to push & shove their way in & out of some bus or train..... Or the reliability factor.... Or for some uppity, holier than thou', "keeping up with the jones' " ass reason (*who takes public transit? that's disgusting, that's soooooo low class, yada, yada, yada.... those people definitely exist).....

How are you being snarky about someone bringing up the different vantage point from a car vs. that from the bus - As if he's in the wrong..... Your main sticking point about bus usage along Woodhaven was from a motorist's point & view & it's flawed... He's right with that.... Which is why you're catching the amount of flack as it pertains to that....

We can have a rational discussion about the justification of SBS not being worth the price of tea in China, but bus lanes?

I'm still waiting for that rabbit to be pulled out of some hat; such furry wittle creatures they are....
You haven't had one "ta-da" moment in this discussion yet....

.

[B35 via Church]

11 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

The width of a street does not determine if bus lanes are needed. The frequency of bus service and the amount of other traffic do.

The bus lanes would not be so bad if they were in the service roads and were not in effect during non rush hours when the buses are already traveling at average speeds greater than 20 mph. 

You're right in your answer to Yuki..... At the same time though, along what stretch of road are there bus lanes in the service roads? (serious question)

I can't picture a bus lane on the service roads along Pelham Pkwy, Kings Hwy, Woodhaven Blvd, Eastern Pkwy, Ocean Pkwy, or the infamous Queens Blvd...

((anyone can answer that question btw,... any domestic or int'l public transportation system will suffice, I'm actually intrigued to see an instance of it)

9 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

You didn't answer if the buses were crowded because they were late.

You are clawing tooth & nail for any reason to convey that buses along Woodhaven outside of the rush (or during beach season) isn't capable of seeing crushloads otherwise & it's embarrassing.... You should quit while you're already behind..... I also don't understand how you would even have the wherewithal to be scouring the capacities of these buses as you are driving, to (continue) to reiterate this point....

The last thing I'm thinking of when driving along Jericho Tpke. is seeing how loads are on the n24.... Too busy trying to PASS that MF'er (and anyone else in front of me).... Now I'm beginning to see why you kept getting called out on your driving habits on subchat.....

[BrooklynBus]

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

You're right in your answer to Yuki..... At the same time though, along what stretch of road are there bus lanes in the service roads? (serious question)

I can't picture a bus lane on the service roads along Pelham Pkwy, Kings Hwy, Woodhaven Blvd, Eastern Pkwy, Ocean Pkwy, or the infamous Queens Blvd...

((anyone can answer that question btw,... any domestic or int'l public transportation system will suffice, I'm actually intrigued to see an instance of it)

You are clawing tooth & nail for any reason to convey that buses along Woodhaven outside of the rush (or during beach season) isn't capable of seeing crushloads otherwise & it's embarrassing.... You should quit while you're already behind..... I also don't understand how you would even have the wherewithal to be scouring the capacities of these buses as you are driving, to (continue) to reiterate this point....

The last thing I'm thinking of when driving along Jericho Tpke. is seeing how loads are on the n24.... Too busy trying to PASS that MF'er (and anyone else in front of me).... Now I'm beginning to see why you kept getting called out on your driving habits on subchat.....

You can't compare Woodhaven to those other streets except Pelham Parkway. You would have to ban all parking on those service roads to have a bus lane and on Kings Highway a bus lane is definitely not necessary. Woodhaven could easily be redesigned to accommodate bus lanes in the service road which is very wide at certain points and there are blocks where parking can be eliminated with few parking spaces lost because most of the block is driveways. I doubt it if Pelham Parkway has the amount of car traffic that Woodhaven does and there are alternative parallel streets which is not the case on Woodhaven. None of the parallel streets are continuous and they are slow one way streets not two way Avenues. The community was even willing to accept bus lanes on the service road, but not the main road. They are not all crazy. Who knows the street better? Those who use it everyday or have lived there for 30 years or DOT's engineers basing their decisions on incomplete and sometimes five year old traffic counts? 

And I do watch the buses while I am driving. 

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Significantly greater (as in, thousands more than that), no.... But at the same time, I don't exactly trust the numbers that are put out there either... I only use these numbers as talking points, which is why I don't bother w/ much of any arguing of stats & figures down to the tee..... Your potential stating of any concession won't amount to much, when the basis of your stance is centered around bus lanes not being worth it for Woodhaven (blvd)..... As if bus usage (and frequency) along Woodhaven Blvd is so low that it's preposterous to have it implemented.....

You say you're pro-transit, but at the same time, you're arguing against bus lanes for one of the most heavily utilized corridors (or whatever you want to call it) in the city.... You are fusing your criticisms for SBS with that of bus lanes & I'm here to extract it..... I'm not arguing (as in, siding with) the MTA's nut-busting session of SBS all over the place, I'm specifically commenting on the supposed uselessness of bus lanes......

Now it should be no secret on here that I'm an advocate for bus travel, but there is nothing saying that you have to take nothing but buses from Sheepshead Bay to Astoria.... You can't get to everywhere in a city of this gargantuan proportion you need to go in two or less bus routes.... Come on with this.... One size will never fit all....  How am I saying this to someone of your magnitude that was a former planner for the MTA? Sure enough, the MTA isn't (and can't) fill every void in the system, but how about (quote-unquote) the reason behind people doing as much driving in this city being that they don't want to be on top of people, having to push & shove their way in & out of some bus or train..... Or the reliability factor.... Or for some uppity, holier than thou', "keeping up with the jones' " ass reason (*who takes public transit? that's disgusting, that's soooooo low class, yada, yada, yada.... those people definitely exist).....

How are you being snarky about someone bringing up the different vantage point from a car vs. that from the bus - As if he's in the wrong..... Your main sticking point about bus usage along Woodhaven was from a motorist's point & view & it's flawed... He's right with that.... Which is why you're catching the amount of flack as it pertains to that....

We can have a rational discussion about the justification of SBS not being worth the price of tea in China, but bus lanes?

I'm still waiting for that rabbit to be pulled out of some hat; such furry wittle creatures they are....
You haven't had one "ta-da" moment in this discussion yet....

.

I don't trust DOT's numbers either but in this case they have no reason to underestimate. Why won't they tell us how many drivers  and passengers there are and won't admit that bus riders account for only about 20 percent of the roadway users on Woodhaven? 

I am arguing against 24 hour bus lanes and any lanes in the main roadway. I would accept rush hour lanes with HOV in the service roads. Bus lanes are just not necessary between 10 AM and 3 PM, evenings, nights, and weekends because they won't move any faster with bus lanes. 

I didn't say there weren't other choices besides buses from Sheepshead Bay to Astoria. I was merely answering the question as to why I wasn't riding the Q53 instead of driving. My other choices are a 90 minute to two hour subway trip. A drive there along Woodhaven used to take 45 minutes (and that was even at the end of the rush hour) , it now takes 60 minutes with DOT's "improvements". After SBS during non rush hours it will take at least another ten or 15 minutes, making it only slightly quicker than the subway instead of half the time. The BQE can take from 36 minutes to two or  2 1/2 hours depending on the time of day. 

Your other reasons why people want to drive are correct. But the MTA is doing nothing to prevent people standing in crush loads during the off peak when most should get a seat if the ran enough trains and buses. 

Tell me if the corridor is so heavily used by bus passengers and there is so much Bus service on Woodhaven to merit bus lanes, why can I drive from the Belt to Queens Blvd and only pass three buses? That includes all the routes. Either there aren't that many buses or they are traveling too fast for me to pass more of them. Neither of which supports bus lanes on the weekends. 

 

[bobtehpanda]

5 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

You can't compare Woodhaven to those other streets except Pelham Parkway. You would have to ban all parking on those service roads to have a bus lane and on Kings Highway a bus lane is definitely not necessary. Woodhaven could easily be redesigned to accommodate bus lanes in the service road which is very wide at certain points and there are blocks where parking can be eliminated with few parking spaces lost because most of the block is driveways. I doubt it if Pelham Parkway has the amount of car traffic that Woodhaven does and there are alternative parallel streets which is not the case on Woodhaven. None of the parallel streets are continuous and they are slow one way streets not two way Avenues. The community was even willing to accept bus lanes on the service road, but not the main road. They are not all crazy. Who knows the street better? Those who use it everyday or have lived there for 30 years or DOT's engineers basing their decisions on incomplete and sometimes five year old traffic counts? 

And I do watch the buses while I am driving. 

I don't trust DOT's numbers either but in this case they have no reason to underestimate. Why won't they tell us how many drivers  and passengers there are and won't admit that bus riders account for only about 20 percent of the roadway users on Woodhaven? 

I am arguing against 24 hour bus lanes and any lanes in the main roadway. I would accept rush hour lanes with HOV in the service roads. Bus lanes are just not necessary between 10 AM and 3 PM, evenings, nights, and weekends because they won't move any faster with bus lanes. 

I didn't say there weren't other choices besides buses from Sheepshead Bay to Astoria. I was merely answering the question as to why I wasn't riding the Q53 instead of driving. My other choices are a 90 minute to two hour subway trip. A drive there along Woodhaven used to take 45 minutes (and that was even at the end of the rush hour) , it now takes 60 minutes with DOT's "improvements". After SBS during non rush hours it will take at least another ten or 15 minutes, making it only slightly quicker than the subway instead of half the time. The BQE can take from 36 minutes to two or  2 1/2 hours depending on the time of day. 

Your other reasons why people want to drive are correct. But the MTA is doing nothing to prevent people standing in crush loads during the off peak when most should get a seat if the ran enough trains and buses. 

Tell me if the corridor is so heavily used by bus passengers and there is so much Bus service on Woodhaven to merit bus lanes, why can I drive from the Belt to Queens Blvd and only pass three buses? That includes all the routes. Either there aren't that many buses or they are traveling too fast for me to pass more of them. Neither of which supports bus lanes on the weekends. 

You, watching the buses as a driver, is a pretty crappy anecdote, because unless you are just tailgating these buses you can't be seriously looking inside of them for more than a minute (which you admit yourself, saying that you pass them). Just saying.

Even if they represent 20% of the road users, they certainly are not getting 20% of the road space, which is what the reallocation of road space effectively does.

And on top of that, you're not passing that many buses because, well, you're moving alongside them! The point of bus lanes is to relieve the fact that because buses have to come to a full stop at every stop and then start, delays affect them much more than regular cars and throws the reliability into the trash can. And an empty bus lane is actually an indication that the bus lane is working, because the buses are clearing through so quickly that you rarely see them. If you're seeing a full bus lane, that usually means it's over capacity, and in the cases of 5th and Madison where this was the case they made two bus lanes instead.

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

it You, watching the buses as a driver, is a pretty crappy anecdote, because unless you are just tailgating these buses you can't be seriously looking inside of them for more than a minute (which you admit yourself, saying that you pass them). Just saying.

Even if they represent 20% of the road users, they certainly are not getting 20% of the road space, which is what the reallocation of road space effectively does.

And on top of that, you're not passing that many buses because, well, you're moving alongside them! The point of bus lanes is to relieve the fact that because buses have to come to a full stop at every stop and then start, delays affect them much more than regular cars and throws the reliability into the trash can. And an empty bus lane is actually an indication that the bus lane is working, because the buses are clearing through so quickly that you rarely see them. If you're seeing a full bus lane, that usually means it's over capacity, and in the cases of 5th and Madison where this was the case they made two bus lanes instead.

I can certainly tell while driving if a bus has 20 passengers or 80 passengers.

Just because bus passengers are 20 percent of the road users, does not mean they require 20 percent of the road space exclusively for them. And Woodhaven will be giving them between 25 and 33 percent of the road space depending on if you include the service road which supposed to be for local traffic and right turns only according to DOT. They say one of the purposes of putting the bus lane in the center is to segregate local from through traffic. For that to happen, no more than 2/3 of the traffic could be through traffic. There are no statistics showing that is the case, More likely it is like at least 75 percent of the traffic that are using Woodhaven for a mile or more and can be considered through traffic, So some through traffic will be forced to use the service roads, and no separation will occur as DOT predicts.

So not only will buses have more than 20 percent of the roadway, they will also be allowed to use the other lanes also which they will have to do to get around buses stopped to pick up passengers. 

If I only pass three buses because we are going in the same direction, why do I only see six buses in the opposite direction if there is so much bus service on Woodhaven? 

An empty bus lane with cars standing still in the remaining lanes shows the bus lane is not working. It can also mean a bus is operating only once every 15 or 30 minutes. For bus lanes to make sense there needs to be a bus about once every three minutes, five minutes tops..

[B35 via Church]

5 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

You can't compare Woodhaven to those other streets except Pelham Parkway. You would have to ban all parking on those service roads to have a bus lane and on Kings Highway a bus lane is definitely not necessary. Woodhaven could easily be redesigned to accommodate bus lanes in the service road which is very wide at certain points and there are blocks where parking can be eliminated with few parking spaces lost because most of the block is driveways. I doubt it if Pelham Parkway has the amount of car traffic that Woodhaven does and there are alternative parallel streets which is not the case on Woodhaven. None of the parallel streets are continuous and they are slow one way streets not two way Avenues. The community was even willing to accept bus lanes on the service road, but not the main road. They are not all crazy. Who knows the street better? Those who use it everyday or have lived there for 30 years or DOT's engineers basing their decisions on incomplete and sometimes five year old traffic counts? 

And I do watch the buses while I am driving. 

There was no comparison being made; I was listing roadways where service roads are present... That much should have been obvious - Even went as far as state that anyone could bring up any scenario where bus lanes are implemented worldwide... Fact of the matter is, I have never heard of any bus lane being on any service road & here you are not only bringing it up, but passing it off as a some sort of plausible option/solution....

You telling me that you watch buses while you're driving, is a reaffirmation of the problem as it pertains to your conclusion of the level of ridership along Woodhaven.....

7 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I don't trust DOT's numbers either but in this case they have no reason to underestimate. Why won't they tell us how many drivers  and passengers there are and won't admit that bus riders account for only about 20 percent of the roadway users on Woodhaven? 

I am arguing against 24 hour bus lanes and any lanes in the main roadway. I would accept rush hour lanes with HOV in the service roads. Bus lanes are just not necessary between 10 AM and 3 PM, evenings, nights, and weekends because they won't move any faster with bus lanes. 

I didn't say there weren't other choices besides buses from Sheepshead Bay to Astoria. I was merely answering the question as to why I wasn't riding the Q53 instead of driving. My other choices are a 90 minute to two hour subway trip. A drive there along Woodhaven used to take 45 minutes (and that was even at the end of the rush hour) , it now takes 60 minutes with DOT's "improvements". After SBS during non rush hours it will take at least another ten or 15 minutes, making it only slightly quicker than the subway instead of half the time. The BQE can take from 36 minutes to two or  2 1/2 hours depending on the time of day. 

Your other reasons why people want to drive are correct. But the MTA is doing nothing to prevent people standing in crush loads during the off peak when most should get a seat if the ran enough trains and buses. 

Tell me if the corridor is so heavily used by bus passengers and there is so much Bus service on Woodhaven to merit bus lanes, why can I drive from the Belt to Queens Blvd and only pass three buses? That includes all the routes. Either there aren't that many buses or they are traveling too fast for me to pass more of them. Neither of which supports bus lanes on the weekends.

Profess how many drivers/passengers there are? What difference would it make - You're talking about shifting bus lanes off to the wayside onto the service road!

This entire post is riddled & laced with not only pro-car talking points, but anti-transit talking points as well.... You are not going to convince me with your rhetoric that the Woodhaven blvd. corridor isn't heavily utilized by bus passengers.... You are for the motorist & for the motorist only.... Don't bother conveying that you're not completely against bus lanes, going on to specify that you're against 24 hr. bus lanes & lanes in the main roadway (talk about bastardization) - and in the same breath, denouncing the merit of bus lanes in some cockamamy attenpt to paint Woodhaven blvd as this ill-utilized bus corridor....

Nobody's buying what you're selling here.....

[BrooklynBus]

2 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

There was no comparison being made; I was listing roadways where service roads are present... That much should have been obvious - Even went as far as state that anyone could bring up any scenario where bus lanes are implemented worldwide... Fact of the matter is, I have never heard of any bus lane being on any service road & here you are not only bringing it up, but passing it off as a some sort of plausible option/solution....

You telling me that you watch buses while you're driving, is a reaffirmation of the problem as it pertains to your conclusion of the level of ridership along Woodhaven.....

Profess how many drivers/passengers there are? What difference would it make - You're talking about shifting bus lanes off to the wayside onto the service road!

This entire post is riddled & laced with not only pro-car talking points, but anti-transit talking points as well.... You are not going to convince me with your rhetoric that the Woodhaven blvd. corridor isn't heavily utilized by bus passengers.... You are for the motorist & for the motorist only.... Don't bother conveying that you're not completely against bus lanes, going on to specify that you're against 24 hr. bus lanes & lanes in the main roadway (talk about bastardization) - and in the same breath, denouncing the merit of bus lanes in some cockamamy attenpt to paint Woodhaven blvd as this ill-utilized bus corridor....

Nobody's buying what you're selling here.....

I will only say this. If bus roads on the service road is totally infeasible as you suggest, then why was it one of the three alternatives that were being considered by DOT and presented to the communities? Also, why was it the option overwhelmingly chosen by the communities if they were to have bus lanes at all? 

Shouldn't DOT be required to present only valid options, not ones that are so ridiculous as you claim, that they could just be automatically eliminated?