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Sheepshead Bay/Manhattan Beach Transformation


Via Garibaldi 8

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I grew up in the area and it is going through a transformation of sorts.  Several large "luxury" buildings have either been completed or will be completed soon, and all sorts of more "high-end" shops (high-end considering the area, since Manhattan Beach doesn't really have much commercial retail to speak of, and Sheepshead Bay has generally always been a sleepy area aside from places like Lundy's back in its heyday) are starting to open in an attempt to lure customers moving down there with cash. It's strange for me since I grew up in the area because while Manhattan Beach was always a more upper middle class area, Sheepshead Bay overall was just middle class, with some upper middle class spots here and there.  With this transformation, the question that popped up in my head was will transportation needs in the area change?

After running some errands and visiting with folks I've known for years in the area, I was told to try one of the new "Manhattan style" places that recently opened called "KarVér Brasserie and Bakery Café".  They are trying to expand and are adding locations in Manhattan as well with Manhattan prices.  While having lunch, the chef came over to me and we chatted for a bit. Turns out he grew up in the area as well, and we reminisced a bit about our youth as teens growing up in Sheepshead Bay/Manhattan Beach.  While I ate there, I noticed several individuals that walked in that appeared to have just moved to the area (perhaps from the luxury condo above the brasserie).  It made me wonder if things like the express bus should be marketed more now (my BM3 bus back to Manhattan had about 15 people on it, but I was the only one that boarded along Emmons, save someone further down by Knapp Street) with all of the buildings near Emmons and along Ocean Avenue that are being built.  

How are these people getting to work?  Is the (B)(Q) seeing more usage and if so will it be able to handle this new influx of residents, not just in Sheepshead Bay/Manhattan Beach, but further north as well? Going up along Ocean Avenue, I saw several new luxury looking condos that appear to have just been finished.  It's unclear if some of the people that got off further north on Ocean when I came from Manhattan originally were just those usual holiday shoppers, or if they were indeed "new" riders.  

Years ago at a Town Hall meeting that myself and BrooklynBus attended, I spoke briefly about the need to introduce the (B) on weekends, and several people in the crowd agreed with me. There was also some from co-ops that wanted to see the BM3 be expanded again, but it's difficult to expand such a service if it is not marketed well.  In short, I have to believe these new residents will likely be working in Manhattan and will need to get around. Congestion didn't seem any worse than usual though along Emmons Avenue, so it isn't clear what affect if any will these new buildings will have on such quality of life issues.  I was also speaking with my barber about how people in Manhattan Beach are buying properties and tearing them down to build Mc Mansions.  I suppose these people are driving...

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3 minutes ago, limitednyc said:

first u know the ta never promotes express bus service. it up to the developers to know it's there.  most people don't want to pay $7:50 .

They don't but some buildings certainly do. That's what will be interesting. The brasserie I was in... The building above it sold out. Unless most of the owners are using their apartments investments or pied-à-terres, they will have to get around somehow, and I don't see all of them driving to Manhattan.

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I can't fathom anyone tearing down some old property to prop up a McMansion, as being folks being willing to taking mass transit.... Will their needs change? If these newcomers or whatever get sick of driving clear up & down Brooklyn 5 days a week, eventually, yes.... Will the MTA kow-tow to enough of those folks? Don't know, but I don't necessarily see it - whether that be by an increase in BM3 service or a weekend running of the (B)..... By what it sounds like Sheepshead/Manhattan Beach is trying to ultimately perhaps become (like a Deal, NJ.... or more closer to home, Malba up in Queens) when we start talking about McMansions, it'll change by not being any public transportation....

How's the vacancies of those hotels along Emmons btw?

As for any influx of ridership on the Brighton during the weekday, I'd like to know the answer to that myself....

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1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

I can't fathom anyone tearing down some old property to prop up a McMansion, as being folks being willing to taking mass transit.... Will their needs change? If these newcomers or whatever get sick of driving clear up & down Brooklyn 5 days a week, eventually, yes.... Will the MTA kow-tow to enough of those folks? Don't know, but I don't necessarily see it - whether that be by an increase in BM3 service or a weekend running of the (B)..... By what it sounds like Sheepshead/Manhattan Beach is trying to ultimately perhaps become (like a Deal, NJ.... or more closer to home, Malba up in Queens) when we start talking about McMansions, it'll change by not being any public transportation....

How's the vacancies of those hotels along Emmons btw?

As for any influx of ridership on the Brighton during the weekday, I'd like to know the answer to that myself....

Good point about Malba. The QM2 only touches the southern tip of Malba but doesn't really go into it. The people in Manhattan Beach tend to be older, more established types, but on occasion I get this older couple that gets on with me at Shore Blvd and Emmons and they walk up from Manhattan Beach. Aside from that I almost always board alone there or anywhere else along Emmons. On Ocean sometimes I get on at Avenue X and will have someone board with me.

The reason for my question is they seem to be trying yet again to build up that part of Sheepshead Bay that is a skip and a hop away from the water and Manhattan Beach and now that people appear to be flocking there with more money, I would think some of those people would be inclined to take the BM3. The question is how many.

The funny thing is though from what I've been hearing about new comers to Brooklyn, I get the sense that more and more them are skipping the traditional public transportation entirely and are driving or doing Uber/Lyft.

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10 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

They don't but some buildings certainly do. That's what will be interesting. The brasserie I was in... The building above it sold out. Unless most of the owners are using their apartments investments or pied-à-terres, they will have to get around somehow, and I don't see all of them driving to Manhattan.

The assumption you are making is that the people need to go to Manhattan. I get the impression that the people building the Mansions own their own businesses which could be located anywhere. Therefore they will tend to drive. I would think that those moving into the condos near the subways will be using the subways. Not all of them will be traveling during the peak. The B is not jam packed for most of the rush hour and I doubt it if it is running at peak capacity. Adding one or two more trains during the rush hour I think should be able to handle the additional loads. 

As far as express buses and better marketing them. It really isn't that difficult to find out about them. The question is how many are willing to ride them? Some are deterred by the high fare. For most people, speed is the major reason for their decision. The BM3 uses an indirect routing from Manhattan Beach and I doubt it if it is any quicker. Most people from Manhattan Beach and the southwestern end of Sheepshead Bay get a seat on the B. So why should they pay more than twice as much for a slower bus? Also the BM 3 is accessible to a very small portion of Manhattan Beach. The question that should be asked is why the MTA never added a few trips down Oriental Blvd during the rush hours or ran these trips to go straight down Ocean without the roundabout routing. You are talking about a five minute route extension that would make the route accessible to thousands of additional people. The MTA probably feels that the number of people they would attract would not be enough to make the buses profitable and they don't want to increase their deficit. But knowing the MTA, they probably did a crude analysis just assuming all trips would be extended or else they never looked at it at all or assumed all the buses would run empty like they do when analyzing local route extensions. The smart thing to do would be to try it for six months, but the MTA doesn't think that way. They've assume once they start something, the community won't let them discontinue it, so it's safer to just not try.

I don't know if you are aware of all the six story buildings that have appeared just along or near West End Avenue. There are at least four of them in the last few years. In the next five years, I wouldn't be surprised to see three or four more as the remaining bungalows are torn down. The property is just becoming too valuable. 

Since when does the MTA keep pace with development? You only have to read the comptroller's report for that answer. 

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1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

The assumption you are making is that the people need to go to Manhattan. I get the impression that the people building the Mansions own their own businesses which could be located anywhere. Therefore they will tend to drive. I would think that those moving into the condos near the subways will be using the subways. Not all of them will be traveling during the peak. The B is not jam packed for most of the rush hour and I doubt it if it is running at peak capacity. Adding one or two more trains during the rush hour I think should be able to handle the additional loads. 

As far as express buses and better marketing them. It really isn't that difficult to find out about them. The question is how many are willing to ride them? Some are deterred by the high fare. For most people, speed is the major reason for their decision. The BM3 uses an indirect routing from Manhattan Beach and I doubt it if it is any quicker. Most people from Manhattan Beach and the southwestern end of Sheepshead Bay get a seat on the B. So why should they pay more than twice as much for a slower bus? Also the BM 3 is accessible to a very small portion of Manhattan Beach. The question that should be asked is why the MTA never added a few trips down Oriental Blvd during the rush hours or ran these trips to go straight down Ocean without the roundabout routing. You are talking about a five minute route extension that would make the route accessible to thousands of additional people. The MTA probably feels that the number of people they would attract would not be enough to make the buses profitable and they don't want to increase their deficit. But knowing the MTA, they probably did a crude analysis just assuming all trips would be extended or else they never looked at it at all or assumed all the buses would run empty like they do when analyzing local route extensions. The smart thing to do would be to try it for six months, but the MTA doesn't think that way. They've assume once they start something, the community won't let them discontinue it, so it's safer to just not try.

I don't know if you are aware of all the six story buildings that have appeared just along or near West End Avenue. There are at least four of them in the last few years. In the next five years, I wouldn't be surprised to see three or four more as the remaining bungalows are torn down. The property is just becoming too valuable. 

Since when does the MTA keep pace with development? You only have to read the comptroller's report for that answer. 

Here's the thing though. These new condos are not cheap and the people buying them down there are paying a pretty penny, so $6.50 would not be a big deal at all. That new brasserie I ate had a steady flow of people coming in and they are charging Manhattan prices, so this is clearly not the old Sheepshead Bay we knew when Am Greco's existed. In fact the chef of the new place and I were chatting about the old diner since we both grew up down there. I do agree that the BM3 should have buses that just go down Ocean Avenue. Yesterday going to Sheepshead Bay my bus arrived 40 minutes late to Sheepshead Bay Road. It took about an hour to get through Manhattan and then the driver did the entire freaking loop despite knowing that the rest of us were getting off along Emmons west of Knapp Street. Going back to Manhattan, we did the entire Downtown Loop even though all of us on the bus (about 15 or so) were going to Midtown. They've made the trips as long as possible but it's still more comfortable than taking the subway, but if they could speed it up, it would make a big difference.

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11 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Here's the thing though. These new condos are not cheap and the people buying them down there are paying a pretty penny, so $6.50 would not be a big deal at all. That new brasserie I ate had a steady flow of people coming in and they are charging Manhattan prices, so this is clearly not the old Sheepshead Bay we knew when Am Greco's existed. In fact the chef of the new place and I were chatting about the old diner since we both grew up down there. I do agree that the BM3 should have buses that just go down Ocean Avenue. Yesterday going to Sheepshead Bay my bus arrived 40 minutes late to Sheepshead Bay Road. It took about an hour to get through Manhattan and then the driver did the entire freaking loop despite knowing that the rest of us were getting off along Emmons west of Knapp Street. Going back to Manhattan, we did the entire Downtown Loop even though all of us on the bus (about 15 or so) were going to Midtown. They've made the trips as long as possible but it's still more comfortable than taking the subway, but if they could speed it up, it would make a big difference.

The MTA needs to give drivers discretion as to allowing them to skip loops if no one wants them.That's exactly what happened when I was in Niagra Falls on July 4th a few years ago. After the fireworks the buses were so crowded and the lines so long on the buses back to the hotel, we decided to take the bus three miles in the opposite direction and then ride back because we thought it would be quicker. We weren't the only ones with that idea. But when we got on the bus, the driver asked everyone if anyone wanted to go in the direction we were going. Everyone wanted to go the other way, so the driver reversed direction. (The only thing at the end of the route we did not go to was an attraction that already closed, so it is doubtful anyone was there waiting for the bus.)

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When I saw Avalon Brooklyn Bay going up from the Belt Parkway it piqued my interest, until I saw the prices on their website. I'd use the (B) train a lot and the Belt Parkway otherwise if I lived in that area. Sometimes driving across Brooklyn is just :wacko:.  As others have mentioned Express buses would cost more and crawl to the BQE and/or Prospect Expressway, unless they're routed to use the SBS bus lanes?

 

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45 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

When I saw Avalon Brooklyn Bay going up from the Belt Parkway it piqued my interest, until I saw the prices on their website. I'd use the (B) train a lot and the Belt Parkway otherwise if I lived in that area. Sometimes driving across Brooklyn is just :wacko:.  As others have mentioned Express buses would cost more and crawl to the BQE and/or Prospect Expressway, unless they're routed to use the SBS bus lanes?

 

The price points for Avalon are similar to prices in my current neighborhood for new construction.  The Riverdale Arc was completed in 2015 and studios there also start around $1900.  One bedrooms are around $2650, two bedrooms are around $3300 and three bedrooms are around $3950.  We get a lot of express bus riders from such buildings.  If you're paying such rents, you likely can afford the higher fare.  I think a re-routed express bus that didn't serve all of Sheepshead Bay could compete.

https://streeteasy.com/building/riverdale-parc#tab_building_detail=3

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1 hour ago, N6 Limited said:

How does new a express route get suggested?

Usually from the community.  If you look at a lot of the express bus routes, they serve areas with lots of condos and co-ops... Riverdale, Bay Terrace, Bay Ridge... All of those areas have lots of co-ops and condos where the express buses run.  The parts that the QM5 and QM6 run by is the same deal... The QM6 ends at the North Shore Towers and serves the complex directly, and the QM5 serves several co-ops.  The QM2 and QM20 runs through Mitchell Gardens.  For what it's worth most of the ridership in Sheepshead Bay comes from a co-op along Avenue X.  My thinking is with these new luxury buildings coming online along Emmons Avenue that things could change if the service is marketed well.

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I grew up in Kensington in the 1960s-70s, and Sheepshead Bay was one of my favorite neighborhoods. Very nice quiet old school Italian and Jewish middle class area. The people who kept NYC alive during the bad days of the mid-1970s. How's Roll-N-Roaster doing these days?

Regarding those massive new towers going up. Won't all those additional people overwhelm the narrow platforms of the Sheepshead Bay Road station? I agree with those who believe that many of the newer more well-off residents will prefer the comfortable express buses over the crowded subways. But the MTA seem to be ambivalent about increasing or expanding express bus routes.

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26 minutes ago, Dan1 said:

I grew up in Kensington in the 1960s-70s, and Sheepshead Bay was one of my favorite neighborhoods. Very nice quiet old school Italian and Jewish middle class area. The people who kept NYC alive during the bad days of the mid-1970s. How's Roll-N-Roaster doing these days?

Regarding those massive new towers going up. Won't all those additional people overwhelm the narrow platforms of the Sheepshead Bay Road station? I agree with those who believe that many of the newer more well-off residents will prefer the comfortable express buses over the crowded subways. But the MTA seem to be ambivalent about increasing or expanding express bus routes.

Randazzo's and Roll-N-Roaster are still around. I passby both on the BM3 when running my usual errands.  It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. The luxury condos that replaced El Greco's... When I was eating in KarVér, I noticed mainly older people and foreigners coming in, as in people that likely live in that condo and come down to get a bite. If those are the main people living there (from what I hear some people are indeed locals that lived in say Manhattan Beach and sold their home and moved there), well crowding may not be an issue, as they may simply drive to wherever they want to go.  I didn't notice a lot more traffic than usual either so we may have to wait a while to see how things play out.  I believe that other luxury building by Voorhies (Avalon) was just recently completed, but that's a sizable building with some 236 apartments.  From what I've seen they only mention the (B)(Q) and no mention of the express bus or anything else.

https://www.avaloncommunities.com/new-york/brooklyn-apartments/avalon-brooklyn-bay/features-amenities

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43 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Randazzo's and Roll-N-Roaster are still around. I passby both on the BM3 when running my usual errands.  It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. The luxury condos that replaced El Greco's... When I was eating in KarVér, I noticed mainly older people and foreigners coming in, as in people that likely live in that condo and come down to get a bite. If those are the main people living there (from what I hear some people are indeed locals that lived in say Manhattan Beach and sold their home and moved there), well crowding may not be an issue, as they may simply drive to wherever they want to go.  I didn't notice a lot more traffic than usual either so we may have to wait a while to see how things play out.  I believe that other luxury building by Voorhies (Avalon) was just recently completed, but that's a sizable building with some 236 apartments.  From what I've seen they only mention the (B)(Q) and no mention of the express bus or anything else.

https://www.avaloncommunities.com/new-york/brooklyn-apartments/avalon-brooklyn-bay/features-amenities

Another six-story condo will be going up direct opposite Karver. Also the buildings on the north east side of Voorhies and Sheepshead Bay Road have been vacated. Another six-story condo there. 

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Just now, BrooklynBus said:

Another six-story condo will be going up direct opposite Karver. Also the buildings on the north east side of Voorhies and Sheepshead Bay Road have been vacated. Another six-story condo there. 

Yeah, I saw the writing on the wall a few years ago. It was obvious that some sort of development was needed down there because some parts were starting to look really run down.

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On 12/4/2017 at 8:08 AM, BrooklynBus said:

The MTA needs to give drivers discretion as to allowing them to skip loops if no one wants them.That's exactly what happened when I was in Niagra Falls on July 4th a few years ago. After the fireworks the buses were so crowded and the lines so long on the buses back to the hotel, we decided to take the bus three miles in the opposite direction and then ride back because we thought it would be quicker. We weren't the only ones with that idea. But when we got on the bus, the driver asked everyone if anyone wanted to go in the direction we were going. Everyone wanted to go the other way, so the driver reversed direction. (The only thing at the end of the route we did not go to was an attraction that already closed, so it is doubtful anyone was there waiting for the bus.)

But what about the people who were waiting on the correct side of the street for a bus in that direction? Were there enough buses/high enough frequency that they weren't screwed by the bus skipping those stops?

I do agree with the general rule, though.

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23 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

But what about the people who were waiting on the correct side of the street for a bus in that direction? Were there enough buses/high enough frequency that they weren't screwed by the bus skipping those stops?

I do agree with the general rule, though.

We were three miles from the end of the route. From the map it looked like a three-mile non-stop run through a park to some type of amusement area that was about to close. I assume there already was a bus enroute ahead of us to pick those people up. I don't think this bus would have picked up any more passengers if it went to the end of the route. Even if there was one passenger who would have had to wait another 15 or 30 minutes for a bus, reversing direction saved 20 people on the bus at least 20 minutes, so I believe the driver made the correct decision. 

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1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

We were three miles from the end of the route. From the map it looked like a three-mile non-stop run through a park to some type of amusement area that was about to close. I assume there already was a bus enroute ahead of us to pick those people up. I don't think this bus would have picked up any more passengers if it went to the end of the route. Even if there was one passenger who would have had to wait another 15 or 30 minutes for a bus, reversing direction saved 20 people on the bus at least 20 minutes, so I believe the driver made the correct decision. 

Out of curiosity, which route was it? I'm trying to figure out which amusement park it was.

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What I could see is an extension of the BM3, but one of two things would have to happen:

1. The BM3 would need to be moved to Ulmer Park (possible when everything is fully merged in 2 years).

2. The last bridge replacements on the Belt Parkway need to be completed or at least enough done to allow buses to travel between Exits 9 and 14 (which would also enable the BM4 to use the Belt Parkway for run-ons and run-offs).  The BM3 could then receive a branch called the BM6, which would travel to Manhattan Beach directly and not make the roundabout trip via Batchelder.

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1 minute ago, aemoreira81 said:

What I could see is an extension of the BM3, but one of two things would have to happen:

1. The BM3 would need to be moved to Ulmer Park (possible when everything is fully merged in 2 years).

2. The last bridge replacements on the Belt Parkway need to be completed or at least enough done to allow buses to travel between Exits 9 and 14 (which would also enable the BM4 to use the Belt Parkway for run-ons and run-offs).  The BM3 could then receive a branch called the BM6, which would travel to Manhattan Beach directly and not make the roundabout trip via Batchelder.

You would need to ensure that there was enough usage to run trips like that though. I think the potential is there, but it would have to be marketed better. You could have the bus start at the end of Manhattan Beach and follow the B49, then have it run via Emmons to Ocean and straight up Ocean.

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