Fordham Road Transit Upgrading Proposals

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

I’ve come to the conclusion that if cross Bronx travel along the Pelham Parkway/Fordham Road corridor is to improve in any major way a more reliable option has to be established than the Bx12 bus route. Given how crowded the buses get and they account for a little shy of 50,000 per weekday I’m of the belief that you could get close to six figures if a less delay prone transit mode is added along the route. This topic is to get that discussion started on what that route should look like (subway, light rail, real BRT) and how feasible it would be to implement the improvements. 

[BreeddekalbL]

The subway or lrv option seems infeasible they should give those buses their own row like they did with the q53 and this tsp they hype up

[Orion6025]

I suppose they could try to implement an LRV... But even with an LRV conversion, the Bx12/SBS would still get caught up by cars blocking the box, Fordham Road congestion in general, and cars and trucks trying to turn in front of the LRVs. If you permanently convert one lane per direction into an LRV to prevent the train from getting stuck in traffic, that's gonna add even more traffic, piss off drivers, and add even more congestion to Fordham Road and it won't solve the other two problems. The numerous drivers and commercial vehicles who don't respect the bus lane in the first place would be forced to clog up the remaining 2 lanes. Running it down the center of the street would resolve the turning issue and the blocking the box issue (Depends on how bad the situation is), but then you'd take up even more space by installing boarding platforms. Giving the LRV TSP could help but if anyone is blocking the box, then it's all in vain... Also the limited nature of an LRV would prevent it from navigating around anything that could possibly delay it in its path.

Outside of rush hours, an LRV would work perfectly. During rush hours.... I would be a bit hesitant to say it would be better than a bus.

Subway? Too expensive to dig given the track record of the SAS. And an elevated is out of the question.

A true BRT would be better and cheaper but then you're still taking away traffic lanes and are at the mercy of the behavior of other drivers at intersections.

All of this said, perhaps an LRV or true BRT with its own dedicated lane and TSP along the sidewalk could work. A true BRT would be preferable considering the costs of building up and maintaining an LRV fleet, as well as building and maintaining its infrastructure.

[bobtehpanda]

To solve issues on the eastern end, the should really be extended to Bay Plaza in lieu of the Bx12.

For the western portion of Fordham Rd, I think light rail would be fine. Run it in the grassy median so that cars don't get tempted to violate the right of way.

Any improvements to the western portion would be better as a subway due to the topography and limited right of way. Whether or not it's an actual subway line or LRV is really irrelevant. The main issue is that any subway line would probably have to either be a rinky-dink shuttle or an extension of the  , which is too long. But if I had to pick, I think terminating all trains at Howard Beach would be acceptable, and in that case you could totally go to Fordham Plaza.

[bobtehpanda]

3 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

To solve issues on the eastern end, the should really be extended to Bay Plaza in lieu of the Bx12.

For the western portion of Fordham Rd, I think light rail would be fine. Run it in the grassy median so that cars don't get tempted to violate the right of way.

Any improvements to the western portion would be better as a subway due to the topography and limited right of way. Whether or not it's an actual subway line or LRV is really irrelevant. The main issue is that any subway line would probably have to either be a rinky-dink shuttle or an extension of the  , which is too long. But if I had to pick, I think terminating all trains at Howard Beach would be acceptable, and in that case you could totally go to Fordham Plaza.

Rereading it, that second part should say the eastern section.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Does a subway really resolve the problem? People seem to forget how Fordham Road curves and meanders as do many East-West Bronx streets and that parts are very hilly. The Bx12 is crowded because of the hills. People would be more willing to walk short distances, but even walking from Fordham University to Grand Concourse is like a walk up Mount Everest. It's something no one ever mentions here. The hills have a big factor in how people commute in the Bronx in general, especially East-West. How do you address that with a subway? Are people going to feel like schlepping up and down stairs for the subway just for one or two stops? How deep does it have to be to deal with the hills and the meandering street above?

[checkmatechamp13]

8 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

To solve issues on the eastern end, the should really be extended to Bay Plaza in lieu of the Bx12.

For the western portion of Fordham Rd, I think light rail would be fine. Run it in the grassy median so that cars don't get tempted to violate the right of way.

Any improvements to the western portion would be better as a subway due to the topography and limited right of way. Whether or not it's an actual subway line or LRV is really irrelevant. The main issue is that any subway line would probably have to either be a rinky-dink shuttle or an extension of the  , which is too long. But if I had to pick, I think terminating all trains at Howard Beach would be acceptable, and in that case you could totally go to Fordham Plaza.

I think a little shuttle would still be alright. The only areas without direct subway access are University Heights and Fordham (and for Fordham, it would probably be a little quicker to just transfer to the Concourse Line as opposed to riding all the way to Inwood before going down to Midtown). Of course, for those going to areas like Washington Heights, it would be a different story.

[Deucey]

Here's a radical idea:

Eliminate parking on Fordham between Third Ave and the 207th St Bridge, make the bus lane 24/7 with a barrier between it and the regular traffic lane, and include bus-only traffic light sequences.

Now you'd run into the problem of bus bunching without being able to pass (ie Fordham/University, Fordham/Concourse), but eliminating the ability of cabbies to block the curb and double-parkers doing what they do would make bus traffic flow smoother.

Although I'd rather they (re)build the streetcar as a low floor system (like HBLR and River Line) along the curb with separation barriers, but it'd probably only save 5 min between the Deegan and Pelham Bay, and the Toyota Dealer/auto repair shop at Fordham/Cedar would have to close to make it work.

[checkmatechamp13]

2 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Here's a radical idea:

Eliminate parking on Fordham between Third Ave and the 207th St Bridge, make the bus lane 24/7 with a barrier between it and the regular traffic lane, and include bus-only traffic light sequences.

Now you'd run into the problem of bus bunching without being able to pass (ie Fordham/University, Fordham/Concourse), but eliminating the ability of cabbies to block the curb and double-parkers doing what they do would make bus traffic flow smoother.

Although I'd rather they (re)build the streetcar as a low floor system (like HBLR and River Line) along the curb with separation barriers, but it'd probably only save 5 min between the Deegan and Pelham Bay, and the Toyota Dealer/auto repair shop at Fordham/Cedar would have to close to make it work.

 

For Bx12 SBS buses, you could just have the lead one do a subway-style battery run and put up "Next Bus Please", but then the issue becomes, what do you do if it's an SBS behind a local bus (whether it's a Bx12 or a Bx9/22 between Kingsbridge Road & Third Avenue)

[bobtehpanda]

3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Does a subway really resolve the problem? People seem to forget how Fordham Road curves and meanders as do many East-West Bronx streets and that parts are very hilly. The Bx12 is crowded because of the hills. People would be more willing to walk short distances, but even walking from Fordham University to Grand Concourse is like a walk up Mount Everest. It's something no one ever mentions here. The hills have a big factor in how people commute in the Bronx in general, especially East-West. How do you address that with a subway? Are people going to feel like schlepping up and down stairs for the subway just for one or two stops? How deep does it have to be to deal with the hills and the meandering street above?

The Bronx is hilly, but looking at the admittedly unscientific terrain map provided by biking routes, the grades are nothing that a subway couldn't follow in terms of height, so you could feasibly maintain the same depth beneath every possible station.

If the subway is twice as fast and less prone to delay, I could see it happening. Although this is probably only likely if you build it as a new subway line unconnected from everything else.

[Deucey]

On 12/9/2017 at 10:43 AM, checkmatechamp13 said:

For Bx12 SBS buses, you could just have the lead one do a subway-style battery run and put up "Next Bus Please", but then the issue becomes, what do you do if it's an SBS behind a local bus (whether it's a Bx12 or a Bx9/22 between Kingsbridge Road & Third Avenue)

The problem with "Next Bus Please", like subway battery runs, is that you now have to hold at a stop and disembark passengers - and with buses, hold another bus to switch them to to prevent citations from fare enforcement - at which point you've now made the bunching issue worse because of the time delay with doing that.

Notwithstanding that the following bus would be delayed because it's now picking up the load for two buses instead of one.

But if a bus solution is the only option on the table, I'd re-tune the SBS to make fewer stops to be a train-connector (ie proper BRT).

From West to East:

• 207th St  

  207th St

  Cedar Av MNRR

  Jerome Av

  Concourse  

  3rd Av MNRR

  White Plains  

  Williamsbridge  

  Eastchester (Jacobi Med Ctr)

  Westchester  

  Then all stops to Bay Plaza.

 

That lines up with a lot of destinations for many SBS riders, and saves more time.

An alt idea would be to have a SBS A and SBS B that alternates stops along Fordham and Pelham...

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, Deucey said:

The problem with "Next Bus Please", like subway battery runs, is that you now have to hold at a stop and disembark passengers - and with buses, hold another bus to switch them to to prevent citations from fare enforcement - at which point you've now made the bunching issue worse because of the time delay with doing that.

Notwithstanding that the following bus would be delayed because it's now picking up the load for two buses instead of one.

But if a bus solution is the only option on the table, I'd re-tune the SBS to make fewer stops to be a train-connector (ie proper BRT).

From West to East:

 

• 207th St  

  207th St

  Cedar Av MNRR

  Jerome Av

  Concourse  

  3rd Av MNRR

  White Plains  

  Williamsbridge  

  Eastchester (Jacobi Med Ctr)

  Westchester  

  Then all stops to Bay Plaza.

 

 

That lines up with a lot of destinations for many SBS riders, and saves more time.

An alt idea would be to have a SBS A and SBS B that alternates stops along Fordham and Pelham...

That could work, although the stops skipped are pretty important (University Av is the Bx3, Southern Blvd is the Bronx Zoo and all those buses, Stillwell is Mercy College)

Realistically speaking, how would a split of the Bx12 do? One SBS goes from Inwood to PBP, one SBS goes from Co-op to GC skipping PBP, and locals travel from Cedar to PBP/Orchard Beach.

[paulrivera]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

That could work, although the stops skipped are pretty important (University Av is the Bx3, Southern Blvd is the Bronx Zoo and all those buses, Stillwell is Mercy College)

Realistically speaking, how would a split of the Bx12 do? One SBS goes from Inwood to PBP, one SBS goes from Co-op to GC skipping PBP, and locals travel from Cedar to PBP/Orchard Beach.

A LOT of people transfer between the Bx3 and Bx12, so that’s a non-starter. Splitting the SBS into two routes would be more confusing than what it’s worth.

My idea would involve folding the local Bx12 into SBS. Yeah, the SBS buses would be making almost all of the local stops, but it would even out the loads quite a bit. Too many people insist on taking a late running Sardine Bus when most of the time there are local buses running with at least some standing room that already makes 80% of the same stops the SBS already makes.

Long term, they still need to add more service one way or the other, whether it’s more buses or building a LRV or subway line.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

9 hours ago, paulrivera said:

A LOT of people transfer between the Bx3 and Bx12, so that’s a non-starter. Splitting the SBS into two routes would be more confusing than what it’s worth.

My idea would involve folding the local Bx12 into SBS. Yeah, the SBS buses would be making almost all of the local stops, but it would even out the loads quite a bit. Too many people insist on taking a late running Sardine Bus when most of the time there are local buses running with at least some standing room that already makes 80% of the same stops the SBS already makes.

Long term, they still need to add more service one way or the other, whether it’s more buses or building a LRV or subway line.

I think that's easy to say, but I'm sure that the farebeating in those areas are one of the main reasons for the shabby service.  I mean we both know the deal here.  Those people in areas like University Heights think the fare is free.   Just because they live in a hilly neighborhood, that doesn't mean they get a free ride.  They need to step up inspections on the Bx12SBS and start having people checking on the Bx3, and Bx9... All of the buses that go through University Heights and those other little areas where farebeating is rampant.  

[checkmatechamp13]

14 hours ago, Deucey said:

The problem with "Next Bus Please", like subway battery runs, is that you now have to hold at a stop and disembark passengers - and with buses, hold another bus to switch them to to prevent citations from fare enforcement - at which point you've now made the bunching issue worse because of the time delay with doing that.

Notwithstanding that the following bus would be delayed because it's now picking up the load for two buses instead of one.

2

With +SBS+ buses, if they already have a ticket, they just carry it with them onto the next bus (which ideally should still be behind the late bus).

As for double loads, keep in mind that the late bus likely has more than its normal load of passengers, and the late bus likely has somewhat less than its normal load (even if it's SRO), so it evens it out.

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I think that's easy to say, but I'm sure that the farebeating in those areas are one of the main reasons for the shabby service.  I mean we both know the deal here.  Those people in areas like University Heights think the fare is free.   Just because they live in a hilly neighborhood, that doesn't mean they get a free ride.  They need to step up inspections on the Bx12SBS and start having people checking on the Bx3, and Bx9... All of the buses that go through University Heights and those other little areas where farebeating is rampant.  

Service runs every 6 minutes or less for most of the day on weekdays and Saturdays (and Sunday headways are still under 10 minutes for most of the day). And that's just the SBS alone. The bunching is just incompetence on the part of the MTA. If they really wanted to screw those areas over, they wouldn't run that much service, bunching or no bunching. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

39 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Service runs every 6 minutes or less for most of the day on weekdays and Saturdays (and Sunday headways are still under 10 minutes for most of the day). And that's just the SBS alone. The bunching is just incompetence on the part of the MTA. If they really wanted to screw those areas over, they wouldn't run that much service, bunching or no bunching. 

This isn't about screwing over anybody. My point is you can't accurately say how many people are using the service when you have so many people farebeating.  On SBS lines the driver can't record anything, so how do they know outside of when the Eagle Team does their checks?

[paulrivera]

9 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I think that's easy to say, but I'm sure that the farebeating in those areas are one of the main reasons for the shabby service.  I mean we both know the deal here.  Those people in areas like University Heights think the fare is free.   Just because they live in a hilly neighborhood, that doesn't mean they get a free ride.  They need to step up inspections on the Bx12SBS and start having people checking on the Bx3, and Bx9... All of the buses that go through University Heights and those other little areas where farebeating is rampant.  

There’s also people coming from all over the place at Fordham Plaza waiting for a 12 to go up the hill from the other side... then half of them get off at the next stop!

Problem there is that there are so many buses and trains that feed into that area you can’t really tell where all these people are coming from. I mean, I guess some of them have Unitickets (the pass serves as POP) but I doubt many people pay.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

There’s also people coming from all over the place at Fordham Plaza waiting for a 12 to go up the hill from the other side... then half of them get off at the next stop!

Problem there is that there are so many buses and trains that feed into that area you can’t really tell where all these people are coming from. I mean, I guess some of them have Unitickets (the pass serves as POP) but I doubt many people pay.

Yeah I mean when I took the Bx12 a few weeks ago it was only because I didn't feel like walking up that damn hill to get to Sedgwick otherwise I would normally just walk, but I paid. I don't think a lot of people bother for one or two stops. I remember when I did the shirt walk from Fordham Metro-North to Grand Concourse to the BxM4... Was a b*tch walking up that hill. The next time I waited for the Bx12. 

[checkmatechamp13]

Not for nothing, but I remember an old proposal (I think by cotb16) that extended the Bx26 to Marble Hill via Kingsbridge Road. Not sure if it would indirectly help the Bx12 by giving riders an alternate crosstown route, or if it would just add more potential for unreliability.

FWIW I rememet talking to somebody who took the X10 to the to the Bx12 to reach Bay Plaza, and looking back on it, the Bx26 would've been an alternative. I met her on a weekend so it might not have been as bad, but if the MTA could advertise the Bx26 somehow, that might help a little.  

The other solution could be to have half the SBS buses run the full route, and half run only as far as Fordham Plaza and turn around. 

[engineerboy6561]

On 12/9/2017 at 2:05 AM, bobtehpanda said:

To solve issues on the eastern end, the should really be extended to Bay Plaza in lieu of the Bx12.

For the western portion of Fordham Rd, I think light rail would be fine. Run it in the grassy median so that cars don't get tempted to violate the right of way.

Any improvements to the western portion would be better as a subway due to the topography and limited right of way. Whether or not it's an actual subway line or LRV is really irrelevant. The main issue is that any subway line would probably have to either be a rinky-dink shuttle or an extension of the  , which is too long. But if I had to pick, I think terminating all trains at Howard Beach would be acceptable, and in that case you could totally go to Fordham Plaza.

Not necessarily, though. The other option would be to run something off the  ; put a pair of bellmouths just north of 191 St and move under the  tracks deep enough to stay underground at Dyckman St; expand the second pair of tracks to a 3-track express/local grouping, and build an express station at Dyckman connected to the  .

After Dyckman, place a local stop at Sedgwick/University Aves (one end of the platform under Fordham/Sedgwick, the other under Fordham/University), an express at Morris Ave (one end of the platform connects to the  under Grand Concourse and the other connects to the  at Jerome Ave) then locals at Fordham Plaza and Southern Blvd, and express stops at White Plains Rd (connection to the  ) and Williamsbridge Rd( connection to the  ), a local stop at Jacobi Medical Center, and then bring it above ground for stops at Pelham Bay Park and Bay Plaza (connecting with the  at Pelham Bay Park and continuing on with an extended  to Bay Plaza. The third track would be set up for some peak-direction express service but it most likely wouldn't be worth implementing. Call the new service the  , and run it every 6 minutes during the day and every 20 after midnight; that would necessitate an expansion of South Ferry to 3 tracks to turn everything.

15 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Not for nothing, but I remember an old proposal (I think by cotb16) that extended the Bx26 to Marble Hill via Kingsbridge Road. Not sure if it would indirectly help the Bx12 by giving riders an alternate crosstown route, or if it would just add more potential for unreliability.

FWIW I rememet talking to somebody who took the X10 to the to the Bx12 to reach Bay Plaza, and looking back on it, the Bx26 would've been an alternative. I met her on a weekend so it might not have been as bad, but if the MTA could advertise the Bx26 somehow, that might help a little.  

The other solution could be to have half the SBS buses run the full route, and half run only as far as Fordham Plaza and turn around. 

That's possible, but if you were to do that it might be better to do it with the 28 (turn it west instead of east at Jerome and Kingsbridge Rd), and then beef up the 28 to every 7-10 minutes and run it limited from Grand Concourse/Jerome to Co-op City, with a stop at Bay Plaza, Q50 stops to Bartow/Edson, then stops at Eastchester Rd, Seymour Av  , Boston Rd, White Plains Rd  , Gun Hill Rd/Montefiore Hospital, Norwood/205 St  station, and Concourse/Jerome, with the Bx38 beefed up to every  7-10 minutes providing local service from Bay Plaza to 205 St  station. At that point you'd be seeing 6-8 local bph on the eastern half of the Gun Hill corridor and 10-12 local bph west of Boston Rd, with an additional 6-8 limited bph supporting; that would probably be enough to act as a functional crosstown corridor to supplement the Bx12.

[checkmatechamp13]

2 hours ago, engineerboy6561 said:

That's possible, but if you were to do that it might be better to do it with the 28 (turn it west instead of east at Jerome and Kingsbridge Rd), and then beef up the 28 to every 7-10 minutes and run it limited from Grand Concourse/Jerome to Co-op City, with a stop at Bay Plaza, Q50 stops to Bartow/Edson, then stops at Eastchester Rd, Seymour Av  , Boston Rd, White Plains Rd  , Gun Hill Rd/Montefiore Hospital, Norwood/205 St  station, and Concourse/Jerome, with the Bx38 beefed up to every  7-10 minutes providing local service from Bay Plaza to 205 St  station. At that point you'd be seeing 6-8 local bph on the eastern half of the Gun Hill corridor and 10-12 local bph west of Boston Rd, with an additional 6-8 limited bph supporting; that would probably be enough to act as a functional crosstown corridor to supplement the Bx12.

Turning the Bx28 west instead of east is slightly better than the current situation, but really, I'm not wild about that whole loop in the Bedford Park/Fordham area. If I were to choose the Bx28 to be extended west, at that point, I would just have it run down Gun Hill-Mosholu-Paul, and bypass the  entirely (just let the Bx30/38 cover it for NE Bronx riders, and let the Bx34 be the primary Norwood-Fordham route). 

The advantage of the Bx26 is that on top of being physically closer, it's also a straight shot (which also makes it attractive). You hit the Concourse & Jerome Lines directly with one route, and the distance to head south from BPB (to go towards Marble Hill) is much shorter than the distance coming from Gun Hill Road, since Gun Hill Road runs southeast-northwest.

On a side note, I made an Excel chart showing overall Bronx local ridership, and per-mile ridership: https://www.docdroid.net/bR25UhP/bronx-local-ridership.xlsx

On a per-mile basis, the busiest route is the Bx12 hands-down. A distant second is the Bx1/2 (I chose the longer of the two routes for the length, which is the Bx1), followed closely by the Bx35, and then you have the Bx41 and Bx9.