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The cost of deadheading


CDTA

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I was wondering, which saves the most? Having buses at a depot closest to them, or at one further away if it means being able to have things like a weekday/rush hour only depot, or a depot with all artics or a depot with all NGs. Obviously this depends on mileage and frequency, but what are the limits to where it's acceptable? Running all the Eastern Queens Express buses out of Queens Village post-merger? Moving the Q44 to West Farms so CS doesn't have any arctics? You get the idea.

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The further the depot is away from the the bulk of the routes, the more reliability becomes an issue, and it is something that has been fought vigorously every time it has come up.  One thing that I've been keeping a close eye on is how the (MTA) has been using Eastchester buses and presumably drivers to do some trips on the Riverdale express buses.  I am not necessarily thrilled about it because Eastchester doesn't keep their buses up as well as Yonkers does.  Case-in-point being last night.  I got Bus#3309 on the BxM2 (19:30 trip) to Riverdale.  The bus was right on time, but it was dirty. Cheese crackers all over the floor that had been stepped on and smashed. On top of that the bus was freezing (AC was on blasting when it was barely 20 degrees outside <_<) and the real kicker was the only thing blowing out was this disgusting cigarette smell that stunk up the bus even with the blower vents closed. Apparently someone had been smoking on the bus and it got all into the HVAC system.  I've never witnessed that on a Yonkers Depot express bus.  With that said if Yonkers Deot does close and there is no depot solution in place, I will certainly be contacting my elected officials and will consider getting a petition going if need be.  Our service has deteriorated enough as it is...

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I thought Grand Avenue (essentially replacing the old Crosstown) was built to address that. I've wondered why the B43, for instance, remained in JG. Anything that goes up into Greenpoint should be GA. (Forget what B48 is now, but that should be too). It does seem they try to run that whole side of Brooklyn out of JG.

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4 hours ago, Eric B said:

I thought Grand Avenue (essentially replacing the old Crosstown) was built to address that. I've wondered why the B43, for instance, remained in JG. Anything that goes up into Greenpoint should be GA. (Forget what B48 is now, but that should be too). It does seem they try to run that whole side of Brooklyn out of JG.

Grand Avenue has actually made things a bit worse. Routes that were selected to be at that depot honestly and truthfully need to return back to their original depots.  Most of their routes are long with exception of the B24 and B39. 

 

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6 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Grand Avenue has actually made things a bit worse. Routes that were selected to be at that depot honestly and truthfully need to return back to their original depots.  Most of their routes are long with exception of the B24 and B39.

For starters, the B15 out of Grand av. was a failed experiment....

I can't think of a single route out of that depot that runs better now, compared to whichever depot it emanated from.

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On 12/28/2017 at 4:50 PM, CDTA said:

I was wondering, which saves the most? Having buses at a depot closest to them, or at one further away if it means being able to have things like a weekday/rush hour only depot, or a depot with all artics or a depot with all NGs. Obviously this depends on mileage and frequency, but what are the limits to where it's acceptable? Running all the Eastern Queens Express buses out of Queens Village post-merger? Moving the Q44 to West Farms so CS doesn't have any arctics? You get the idea.

Usually, the decision is based on (1) proximity of the depot to the route's primary passenger flow, (2) proximity of the depot to a natural relief point, and (3) capacity.  

For example, the Q27 could (and has) run out of either Casey Stengel or Queens Village. Since the main flow of riders is south-to-north in the morning and north-to-south in the evening, QV is the more logical home and reliefs are made at Springfield & Jamaica. However, if too many other routes also "belong" in QV, then the Q27 can be assigned to CS instead.

Similarly, the Q44 could run from West Farms, Casey Stengel, or Jamaica Depots (based purely on location). The main passenger flow is south-to-north in the morning, and the southern terminal is at Merrick & Archer, so JA would be the most natural choice... if it could fit articulated buses. JA can't fit artics, so the Q44 stays in CS for now. (That could change after JA is rebuilt.)

Of course, if the "main" flow is evenly split between directions all day, then either end of a route could be the "correct" end for the purposes of depot assignment, and a route could even be split among multiple depots to avoid excess non-revenue mileage. Can you imagine the Q44 running out of both JA and WF?  

 

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17 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

For starters, the B15 out of Grand av. was a failed experiment....

I can't think of a single route out of that depot that runs better now, compared to whichever depot it emanated from.

B15 and B43 were both dead on arrival failed experiments for Grand Avenue. 

If I were a real bettor the following routes need to be returned back to their depots. 

B47 GA to FB. 

B48 GA to JG 

B13,B57 GA to FP

B60 GA to ENY

Only routes they keep: B24, B39, Q59, B32, B62, B38 (Metro Avenue branch)  

Honestly, and truthfully. There needs to be a 7th depot in Brooklyn to deal with some deadhead issues. Also, there's land out in Canarsie that can address this. 

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8 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Honestly, and truthfully. There needs to be a 7th depot in Brooklyn to deal with some deadhead issues. Also, there's land out in Canarsie that can address this. 

Not sure how the new merger is going to work out  but they could have built a much more upgrade scale sized of Spring Creek. I maybe be mistaken but wouldn't the merger of MTA bus and NYCT would help for depots to swap buses more frequently. If so a lot of the deadheads on the southern Brooklyn routes could be solved. 

correct me if i'm wrong. 

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9 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

B15 and B43 were both dead on arrival failed experiments for Grand Avenue. 

If I were a real bettor the following routes need to be returned back to their depots. 

B47 GA to FB. 

B48 GA to JG 

B13,B57 GA to FP

B60 GA to ENY

Only routes they keep: B24, B39, Q59, B32, B62, B38 (Metro Avenue branch)  

Honestly, and truthfully. There needs to be a 7th depot in Brooklyn to deal with some deadhead issues. Also, there's land out in Canarsie that can address this. 

Why should the B48 go back to JG? The Greenpoint end is much closer to GA than Empire Blvd is to JG. You have to go all the way around both Prospect Park and Greenwood Cemetery, and it's probably a lot more traffic as well.
(47 definitely should be FB).

Wouldn't Spring Creek be the solution for the need for a Canarsie area depot, once they completely merge the operations, and they could move more local routes to it?

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Only if routes and buses can be traded amongst each other like in sports. For example:

B14 or B84 from ENY to SC

B100 From SC to FB

ENY sends Buses to FB for B100 service (RTS or XD40)

The only thing is that ENY would be the loser of the deal, losing a line and buses.

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10 hours ago, Eric B said:

Why should the B48 go back to JG? The Greenpoint end is much closer to GA than Empire Blvd is to JG. You have to go all the way around both Prospect Park and Greenwood Cemetery, and it's probably a lot more traffic as well.
(47 definitely should be FB).

Wouldn't Spring Creek be the solution for the need for a Canarsie area depot, once they completely merge the operations, and they could move more local routes to it?

1:). I'll particularly agree with you in regards to the B48 and Grand Avenue. The only reason I said that was b/c that Grand Avenue ops don't provide adequate service to any of its lines. Most of their lines including the B48 have bunching problems. Yes, I'm well aware of the long deadhead from JG to Empire. Hell, if the 48 was also at FB that deadhead isn't long and can interline with the 41 at Empire.  

2:) Unfortunately , Spring Creek is not the solution as it is (MTA) bus depot and it's classified now as a Queens Division and not Brooklyn Division. Although, it has the B100, B103. You would think it would be solution to help with some issues between Georgetown, Canarsie, East New York, Cypress Hills, and possibly Queens. Spring Creek has done great strides to address the B103. Not too positive with the 100. Maybe once operations merge maybe that can be the solution.  

Theres no local bus service on Avenue K for starters. That's something that's needed in that neighborhood. (Something I will discuss later on the Brooklyn bus proposal solutions). 

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On 12/30/2017 at 10:28 PM, Eric B said:

Why should the B48 go back to JG? The Greenpoint end is much closer to GA than Empire Blvd is to JG. You have to go all the way around both Prospect Park and Greenwood Cemetery, and it's probably a lot more traffic as well.
(47 definitely should be FB).

Where is the ridership?

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15 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Theres no local bus service on Avenue K for starters. That's something that's needed in that neighborhood. (Something I will discuss later on the Brooklyn bus proposal solutions). 

There once was, for a brief shining month or so. The old B50 was rerouted onto Avenue K between Flatlands Avenue and Kings Highway and didn't even last one pick before the folks on K got all NIMBY. They loved the express bus but felt that the local bus was too low-class for them.

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26 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

There once was, for a brief shining month or so. The old B50 was rerouted onto Avenue K between Flatlands Avenue and Kings Highway and didn't even last one pick before the folks on K got all NIMBY. They loved the express bus but felt that the local bus was too low-class for them.

Yes, I do remember the old B50 covering Avenue K for a brief stint.  What I'm referring to is (MTA) bus- Spring Creek depot actually having a local bus covering Avenue K and points to Georgetown and Mill Avenue.  Something that wasn't done during the Command bus co days.  

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On 12/30/2017 at 1:17 PM, Future ENY OP said:

B15 and B43 were both dead on arrival failed experiments for Grand Avenue. 

If I were a real bettor the following routes need to be returned back to their depots. 

B47 GA to FB. 

B48 GA to JG 

B13,B57 GA to FP

B60 GA to ENY

Only routes they keep: B24, B39, Q59, B32, B62, B38 (Metro Avenue branch)  

Honestly, and truthfully. There needs to be a 7th depot in Brooklyn to deal with some deadhead issues. Also, there's land out in Canarsie that can address this. 

Only thing I'd point out (or perhaps, add, since we're in agreement w/ the problems on the route) is that I wouldn't leave the B47 as is..... I would split the thing.... So a southern split of the route, I would move to FB.... Northern split would stay at Grand....

23 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

1:) I'll particularly agree with you in regards to the B48 and Grand Avenue. The only reason I said that was b/c that Grand Avenue ops don't provide adequate service to any of its lines. Most of their lines including the B48 have bunching problems. Yes, I'm well aware of the long deadhead from JG to Empire. Hell, if the 48 was also at FB that deadhead isn't long and can interline with the 41 at Empire.  

2:) Unfortunately , Spring Creek is not the solution as it is (MTA) bus depot and it's classified now as a Queens Division and not Brooklyn Division. Although, it has the B100, B103. You would think it would be solution to help with some issues between Georgetown, Canarsie, East New York, Cypress Hills, and possibly Queens. Spring Creek has done great strides to address the B103. Not too positive with the 100. Maybe once operations merge maybe that can be the solution.  

Theres no local bus service on Avenue K for starters. That's something that's needed in that neighborhood. (Something I will discuss later on the Brooklyn bus proposal solutions). 

1) I don't agree with it at all..... This doesn't seem to be an issue for the B43 (which serves the same general parts of Brooklyn that the B48 does), but it's an issue for the B48? Not buying it... Take the B48 out of there, like pronto.... Funny how the B43 is more proximate to Grand, but it doesn't run out of there..... Now I'm not trying to say that B48 service/levels were the gold standard whilst out of JG, but it's to the point now that you hardly see one passing by when you're out & about (forget actually waiting for it)....  At Prospect Park subway, try counting the number of JG buses (powered on or off, doesn't matter) before you see a Grand av bus.... You have a better chance catching a ghost b/w Greenpoint (Meeker) & Lefferts Gardens via the B48 route, over catching a B48 bus itself.....

I type this, and it's reminiscent of how eerily similar to the B4 (when it was out of Ulmer) the situation is.... Now that it's out of JG, the only thing you could perhaps argue is insufficient service levels.... I don't think this is all some unfortunate co-incidence - Something is clearly amiss with how these routes are being ran out of Grand & I don't proclaim to know what it entails, or more importantly, why.... But what I can see on the passenger level, is that they're regressing to the level of shit.... Again, maybe it should resort to handling less Brooklyn routes & more Queens routes, because the status quo is not working..... To suggest that a depot have appx. HALF of its operations shifted to some other depot - and have it be cogent, says enough....

2a) Same should be the case with Grand.... Some of those LGA routes (Q18, 39, 67) should run out of Grand whenever that merger finalizes, instead of the B13, 47, and B48.....
As far as Spring Creek itself, things have gotten better with the B100 (since it ran out of Command) as well... Buses run like wildfire FWIW & it's one of the more efficient routes in the whole city IMO...

2b) Have to agree that this is needed.... Flatlands av. b/w Flatbush & Utica should have nothing running along it.... I don't particularly care for the B82 as is (I would split that also), but the thing should continue along Kings Hwy. to Av. K, to get to Utica, then continue serving Flatlands west of Utica.... On a bit of a side note, those stops along Av. K within Flatlands (the neighborhood) get good usage on the BM1....

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9 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Yes, I do remember the old B50 covering Avenue K for a brief stint.  What I'm referring to is (MTA) bus- Spring Creek depot actually having a local bus covering Avenue K and points to Georgetown and Mill Avenue.  Something that wasn't done during the Command bus co days.  

Will the local population want an Avenue K "crosstown"?

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2 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Will the local population want an Avenue K "crosstown"?

That's a bit dicey. However, I think it should be warranted. Also, I think it could possibly serve as a feeder between Georgetown and Flatbush/Nostrand. I'd say most of the ridership would come from there.  

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On 12/30/2017 at 10:28 PM, Eric B said:

Why should the B48 go back to JG? The Greenpoint end is much closer to GA than Empire Blvd is to JG. You have to go all the way around both Prospect Park and Greenwood Cemetery, and it's probably a lot more traffic as well.
(47 definitely should be FB).

Only reason i threw in the 48 back to JG was only b/c they had the line previously. Yes, there are reliability issues with the line. Hell, I'd put the 48 at FB only for the fact the terminal is on Empire and easy interline with the 41 and have it operate between Lee and Flushing with interline with the 44 on Lee Avenue. 

Empire to Flushing via Classon = FB

Flushing to Greenpoint via Lormier = GA. 

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1 hour ago, Shondrae said:

YOU HIT IT RIGHT ON THE NOSE! 

Queens and Station Island being ATU and 

Brooklyn Brown and Manhattan being TWU. 

Nobody wants to lose money!

@Shondrae, @East New York Or anyone else. 

For TA  

Brooklyn Division = TWU

Manhattan/Bronx Division (MABSOTA) = TWU

Queens/Staten Island Division. ATU 

For MTA BUS

Eastchester, College Point, Yonkers, Spring Creek = TWU 

JFK, Far Rockaway = ATU. 

*Please advise if this is correct or incorrect* 

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47 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

@Shondrae, @East New York Or anyone else. 

For TA  

Brooklyn Division = TWU

Manhattan/Bronx Division (MABSOTA) = TWU

Queens/Staten Island Division. ATU 

For MTA BUS

Eastchester, College Point, Yonkers, Spring Creek = TWU 

JFK, Far Rockaway = ATU. 

*Please advise if this is correct or incorrect* 

 

for mta bus 

you forgot LGA in twu 

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