MTA on Freedom Ticket: "What had happened was..."

[bobtehpanda]

4 hours ago, RR503 said:

There’s a joke amongst fan circles that the LIRR considers itself the Manhattan and Ronkonkoma Railroad. All one has to do for corroboration of inadequacy in service on non-main line lines is to look at the timetable for service to Greenport, Montauk, Port Jefferson, West Hempstead...oh wait I’m naming almost all of the LIRR’sbranches. Oops. Since we’re definitely grading on a curve, they all pass now (because the rest of the transit universe is fake news, right LIRR? You’re special. We get it. You make your own rules. 1 train every four hours is absolutely adequate service).

@Trainmaster5 I’ve heard the exact same thing from folks there. 

What the LIRR needs is some subway-ification. Trains running at regular intervals on predictable routes (no more we’ll make every third stop except for the 9th which we’ll skip and the 17th which is our terminal, and no more every route to every terminal) all across its service area. You could also increase capacity/reduce delays at Jamaica like that. If you thought Broadway or Rogers were bad re merging take a gander at that complex......and scream. 

That was the original plan; in 1963 the plan was to essentially run a service every ten minutes from Roosevelt Field to GCT, and long-term link GCT to Atlantic so you could loop Main Line trains onto the Babylon Branch. Really put the Metro in a proposed Metro-east, so to say.

The LIRR hasn't always been this terrible; electrification and grade separation of the Babylon Branch was fine, for instance. But somewhere along the way, the LIRR got lazy, which is why we don't even have enough diesels to run the minimum service guidelines and why there hasn't been plans for any additional electrification for decades, even though electrification should minimum reach to Oyster Bay, Port Jefferson, Patchogue, and Speonk.

[N6 Limited]

15 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, that ride on the Q36 b/w LIRR QV & 179th is slow as hell, regardless of time of day.... Same deal w/ the Q110 b/w LIRR QV & Parsons.....

And the Q1/Q2. The LIRR between Jamaica and Queens Village is a 10 min ride,  on the Q43 a 10 min ride might get you from the Jamaica LIRR station to the 169th st  station.

15 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Maybe I'm the only one who saw the big picture years ago. My friends and relatives in Queens have known for years that the LIRR has been cutting back service within the borough for a generation. Stations have had their service cut back or eliminated entirely. There are people who argue that the residents weren't utilizing certain stations but IMO if you only provide infrequent peak direction service that's a self-inflicted problem. When a bus that runs every hour or so during the weekday provides more service to Jamaica or Hillside Avenue is there any doubt why ridership tanked ? A lot has to do with changing demographics but when the LIRR started using MU consists of 10 and 12 cars one of the reasons given for bypassing or eliminating stops was because some stations were too close together therefore negating the increased speed the MU cars brought to the table. On the Ronkonkoma Branch alone there were three stations eliminated in the last 30-35 years. Grumman, Republic, and Pine-Aire, although there's been talk of re-opening Republic/Rt 110. The reasoning behind the closings were distance between stations and changing demographics. Some of you surface fanners who venture into Suffolk County know how busy the Brentwood station is, with it's connections to three or four SCT bus lines. When that line was electrified eastward to Ronkonkoma the Brentwood station was eliminated in the plans. Same reasoning was given for the intended closure. Just so happened the Brentwood assemblyman was chairman of the transportation committee, so I've been told, so the elimination never took place. The funny part of the argument was that trains were supposed to bypass Brentwood, running from Deer Park nonstop to Central Islip. Guess what ? The Deer Park LIRR station is not in Deer Park but in Edgewood (a part of Brentwood). The LIRR has been shedding station stops in Queens for years. They consider it a hassle. I've actually heard people employed by the say that the boroughs should be a NYCT operation. In other words the LIRR is geared toward Nassau and Suffolk, not NYC. Is it any wonder why the " Freedom Ticket" isn't talked about more often? People on the Ronkonkoma Branch don't want the train to stop at Mineola, for God's sake. A major transportation hub and a hospital.  Look no further than the plans for the Atlantic Branch. That's what I see. I may be wrong but this is what I've observed through the years. Carry on

Speaking of which, why isn't the Deer Park station at Deer Park Ave?

 

Also weren't they thinking of running subway service on the Atlantich Branch from Alantic Terminal to Belmont Park?

[NY1635]

11 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

And the Q1/Q2. The LIRR between Jamaica and Queens Village is a 10 min ride,  on the Q43 a 10 min ride might get you from the Jamaica LIRR station to the 169th st  station.

Speaking of which, why isn't the Deer Park station at Deer Park Ave?

 

Also weren't they thinking of running subway service on the Atlantich Branch from Alantic Terminal to Belmont Park?

The LIRR is planning to run shuttle service between Atlantic Terminal and Jamaica. They've said nothing about running full time service from Belmont Park. That was the Islanders talking as if they were sure the MTA will go along with the plan to keep Belmont open full time to serve the new stadium and entertainment complex being built for the team conveniently next to the station.

[Trainmaster5]

1 hour ago, N6 Limited said:

And the Q1/Q2. The LIRR between Jamaica and Queens Village is a 10 min ride,  on the Q43 a 10 min ride might get you from the Jamaica LIRR station to the 169th st  station.

Speaking of which, why isn't the Deer Park station at Deer Park Ave?

 

Also weren't they thinking of running subway service on the Atlantich Branch from Alantic Terminal to Belmont Park?

The original Deer Park station was located at that spot.  After electrification that station was demolished and the present one was constructed further east.

The LIRR plans to run railroad service between Atlantic Terminal and Jamaica Station.  The Belmont Park proposal is a different matter altogether. 

[N6 Limited]

1 hour ago, NY1635 said:

The LIRR is planning to run shuttle service between Atlantic Terminal and Jamaica. They've said nothing about running full time service from Belmont Park. That was the Islanders talking as if they were sure the MTA will go along with the plan to keep Belmont open full time to serve the new stadium and entertainment complex being built for the team conveniently next to the station.

They could add a Belmont Station along the Main line to streamline service to the site.

15 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

The original Deer Park station was located at that spot.  After electrification that station was demolished and the present one was constructed further east.

The LIRR plans to run railroad service between Atlantic Terminal and Jamaica Station.  The Belmont Park proposal is a different matter altogether. 

Interesting about Deer Park:

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/12/22/nyregion/lirr-station-plan-assailed.html

[Missabassie]

Yah know, if the LIRR, state & were smart, they could just elevate the Atlantic branch, build a new level over Jamaica station (4 tracks, 2 island platforms) continue on and merge with the West Hempstead/Babylon trackage, and you've just added significant capacity.

 

But of course that's too smart, they don't want solutions....

[NY1635]

19 minutes ago, Missabassie said:

Yah know, if the LIRR, state & were smart, they could just elevate the Atlantic branch, build a new level over Jamaica station (4 tracks, 2 island platforms) continue on and merge with the West Hempstead/Babylon trackage, and you've just added significant capacity.

 

But of course that's too smart, they don't want solutions....

The LIRR wants to isolate the Atlantic Branch so that it can't merge with any branch. Service on West Hempstead is already reduced to peak hours only while Bablyon remains committed to running half empty to Penn Station. This being done on the assumption that the East Side Access will give the LIRR additional capacity and streamline service.

[RR503]

6 minutes ago, NY1635 said:

The LIRR wants to isolate the Atlantic Branch so that it can't merge with any branch. Service on West Hempstead is already reduced to peak hours only while Bablyon remains committed to running half empty to Penn Station. This being done on the assumption that the East Side Access will give the LIRR additional capacity and streamline service.

If the LIRR could find their cranium, the Atlantic Branch could be operated sans merging. Far Rockaway and Long Beach trains -- which use the Atlantic Branch through Eastern Queens can operate into AT without ever merging with anyone. I believe they run a combined 8tph at peak, which should be plenty. If only serving AT with those two lines sounds scary, then take the middle two tracks west of Jamaica and add them to the AT tranche. They also run through directly. As for commuters from Far Rock and Long Beach, they can xfer at Jamaica, taking advantage of the de-merged, more frequent, speedier, and more reliable train service. 

[bobtehpanda]

5 hours ago, RR503 said:

If the LIRR could find their cranium, the Atlantic Branch could be operated sans merging. Far Rockaway and Long Beach trains -- which use the Atlantic Branch through Eastern Queens can operate into AT without ever merging with anyone. I believe they run a combined 8tph at peak, which should be plenty. If only serving AT with those two lines sounds scary, then take the middle two tracks west of Jamaica and add them to the AT tranche. They also run through directly. As for commuters from Far Rock and Long Beach, they can xfer at Jamaica, taking advantage of the de-merged, more frequent, speedier, and more reliable train service. 

You are essentially describing today's service pattern minus the few peak hour Penn-Far Rock/LB runs.

Really, in a world with sane transit planning, the Atlantic Branch would be extended to Fulton St, which was the original Lower Manhattan-JFK project. All Far Rock, Long Beach, Babylon, and WH trains would head down Long Island via St. Albans, and the other LIRR line would be recaptured by the  . And we'd have long term plans to link Fulton St and GCT with a stop at Union Square.

[RR503]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

You are essentially describing today's service pattern minus the few peak hour Penn-Far Rock/LB runs.

Really, in a world with sane transit planning, the Atlantic Branch would be extended to Fulton St, which was the original Lower Manhattan-JFK project. All Far Rock, Long Beach, Babylon, and WH trains would head down Long Island via St. Albans, and the other LIRR line would be recaptured by the  . And we'd have long term plans to link Fulton St and GCT with a stop at Union Square.

The issue isn’t with the few FR LB runs that go to Penn. It’s with the variety show of trains from other lines that have to cross over all tracks to get into the Dunton lines and into Atlantic Terminal — including the zillion Hempstead/Atlantic runs that have to cross up through Queens Village and Union, and then back down at Jay. Because the LIRR won’t commit to one service pattern for AT, and won’t build flyovers, you end up with a whole bunch of long trains slowly traversing one of the most complex and busy interlockings in the country on a non dominant, crossing route.  That’s long diagonal causes myriad delays — I’ve sat there and watched them pile up. What’s more, because many diesel runs from RH yard and trains from the electric yard have to cross through that area too, those crossovers are being reset ad nauseum. In fact, I actually think that the time to reset those crossovers is almost equal to the amount it takes for a, say, AT to Ronkonkoma train to go from the dunton lines over to one of the south tracks. I’d say the LIRR has correctly identified the issue, just not the solution. 

As for the Lower Manhattan thing, sure in a sane world that’d be great, but in one where ESA with a ton of existing tunnels and no weirdly shaped street grid/subway network to worm through is costing 12 billion dollars, the money to siphon LIRR riders off of under-capacity subway routes saving them 3 to 5 minutes just doesn’t seem worth it. 

I’m with you on the  though. 

[bobtehpanda]

13 hours ago, RR503 said:

The issue isn’t with the few FR LB runs that go to Penn. It’s with the variety show of trains from other lines that have to cross over all tracks to get into the Dunton lines and into Atlantic Terminal — including the zillion Hempstead/Atlantic runs that have to cross up through Queens Village and Union, and then back down at Jay. Because the LIRR won’t commit to one service pattern for AT, and won’t build flyovers, you end up with a whole bunch of long trains slowly traversing one of the most complex and busy interlockings in the country on a non dominant, crossing route.  That’s long diagonal causes myriad delays — I’ve sat there and watched them pile up. What’s more, because many diesel runs from RH yard and trains from the electric yard have to cross through that area too, those crossovers are being reset ad nauseum. In fact, I actually think that the time to reset those crossovers is almost equal to the amount it takes for a, say, AT to Ronkonkoma train to go from the dunton lines over to one of the south tracks. I’d say the LIRR has correctly identified the issue, just not the solution. 

As for the Lower Manhattan thing, sure in a sane world that’d be great, but in one where ESA with a ton of existing tunnels and no weirdly shaped street grid/subway network to worm through is costing 12 billion dollars, the money to siphon LIRR riders off of under-capacity subway routes saving them 3 to 5 minutes just doesn’t seem worth it. 

I’m with you on the  though. 

If we had prioritized that over ESA, we could've built the cavern at the same time as WTC/Fulton construction, and it would've been a lot easier to do.

Of course, Pataki never managed to fund his pet project, and Spitzer thought it was ridiculous, so it never happened.

[RR503]

7 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

If we had prioritized that over ESA, we could've built the cavern at the same time as WTC/Fulton construction, and it would've been a lot easier to do.

Of course, Pataki never managed to fund his pet project, and Spitzer thought it was ridiculous, so it never happened.

Indeed we could’ve. But alas, shortsightedness and pettiness won. So goes the story of NYC. 

[Missabassie]

On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 6:00 PM, RR503 said:

If the LIRR could find their cranium, the Atlantic Branch could be operated sans merging.

.....Is exactly what I'm saying.

[N6 Limited]

 

Quote

 

http://www.pcac.org/news/nyctrc-releases-freedom-ticket-report/

http://www.pcac.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Freedom-Ticket-reduced.pdf

 

 

The MTA could actually save money because if riders opt for the LIRR, the MTA won't have to run as much bus service to Jamaica (Which is more expensive especially as they run light in the reverse peak direction) ,and the buses won't have to clog up downtown Jamaica during rush hours. During Off peak hours buses should make connections with the LIRR.

They should Extend the Q27 down to the Q5 and/or Q85.

[RR503]

What’s more, the cost to the MTA of filling those seats on LIRR trains is zero, so beyond the riders whose fares would be lowered, this would be cost positive for the LIRR. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, N6 Limited said:

 

 

The MTA could actually save money because if riders opt for the LIRR, the MTA won't have to run as much bus service to Jamaica (Which is more expensive especially as they run light in the reverse peak direction) ,and the buses won't have to clog up downtown Jamaica during rush hours. During Off peak hours buses should make connections with the LIRR.

They should Extend the Q27 down to the Q5 and/or Q85.

 

17 minutes ago, RR503 said:

What’s more, the cost to the MTA of filling those seats on LIRR trains is zero, so beyond the riders whose fares would be lowered, this would be cost positive for the LIRR. 

Nevermind all of that. Truckie and Lance will INSIST that the LIRR and MNRR be used for commuters from the suburbs, even though NYC heavily subsidizes both railroads. Just a minor detail... 

[N6 Limited]

53 minutes ago, RR503 said:

What’s more, the cost to the MTA of filling those seats on LIRR trains is zero, so beyond the riders whose fares would be lowered, this would be cost positive for the LIRR. 

Exactly, the only thing is that the conductors would have to do more ticket punching (or not if riders get weekly and monthly tickets)

35 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

 

Nevermind all of that. Truckie and Lance will INSIST that the LIRR and MNRR be used for commuters from the suburbs, even though NYC heavily subsidizes both railroads. Just a minor detail... 

Well in the case of LIRR, Queens and Brooklyn are part of Long Island so the LIRR should act like it.

Also, they should encourage more "intermediate" travel like the Metro North does, it's only $4 from Fordham to White Plains. On the LIRR once you cross the city line the prices get jacked up. (I can understand on trips to/from Penn Station since they have to pay Amtrak for space and maintenance, but what excuse do they have for the rest of City Terminal Zone)?

[NY1635]

2 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

 

 

The MTA could actually save money because if riders opt for the LIRR, the MTA won't have to run as much bus service to Jamaica (Which is more expensive especially as they run light in the reverse peak direction) ,and the buses won't have to clog up downtown Jamaica during rush hours. During Off peak hours buses should make connections with the LIRR.

They should Extend the Q27 down to the Q5 and/or Q85.

The city buses that do connect to the LIRR stations in Queens don't get high usage because the railroad has a terrible off peak schedule in city stations outside of Jamaica and Woodside. Even in Nassau it's hard to tell when the next non-Babylon, or Port Washington Branch will arrive and where it will stop. I've always wondered why folks were complaining about the n22 or n23 not connecting to the LIRR at Intermodal Center until I found out that some trains were skipping Mineola and Hicksville, as if going thru those major hubs will somehow stop the frequent delays and cancellations that currently plaguing the Main Line.

[checkmatechamp13]

34 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Exactly, the only thing is that the conductors would have to do more ticket punching (or not if riders get weekly and monthly tickets)

Well in the case of LIRR, Queens and Brooklyn are part of Long Island so the LIRR should act like it.

Well, this is the monthly Freedom ticket we're talking about, right?  

[N6 Limited]

On 1/16/2018 at 6:20 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

Well, this is the monthly Freedom ticket we're talking about, right?  

They suggest a one way,weekly and monthly, So they'd punch a one way, but not the weekly or monthly

[bobtehpanda]

On 1/16/2018 at 2:44 PM, N6 Limited said:

Exactly, the only thing is that the conductors would have to do more ticket punching (or not if riders get weekly and monthly tickets)

Well in the case of LIRR, Queens and Brooklyn are part of Long Island so the LIRR should act like it.

Also, they should encourage more "intermediate" travel like the Metro North does, it's only $4 from Fordham to White Plains. On the LIRR once you cross the city line the prices get jacked up. (I can understand on trips to/from Penn Station since they have to pay Amtrak for space and maintenance, but what excuse do they have for the rest of City Terminal Zone)?

 

On 1/16/2018 at 2:44 PM, N6 Limited said:

Well in the case of LIRR, Queens and Brooklyn are part of Long Island so the LIRR should act like it.

The way Long Islanders talk about the five boroughs, you'd think that Escape from New York was just socialist greenwashing propaganda. But this is what happens when a suburb's only real connection to New York are the third-gen NYPD officers who live out there.

On 1/16/2018 at 3:05 PM, NY1635 said:

The city buses that do connect to the LIRR stations in Queens don't get high usage because the railroad has a terrible off peak schedule in city stations outside of Jamaica and Woodside. Even in Nassau it's hard to tell when the next non-Babylon, or Port Washington Branch will arrive and where it will stop. I've always wondered why folks were complaining about the n22 or n23 not connecting to the LIRR at Intermodal Center until I found out that some trains were skipping Mineola and Hicksville, as if going thru those major hubs will somehow stop the frequent delays and cancellations that currently plaguing the Main Line.

The Manhattan and Ronkonkoma railroad doesn't have time for that.

The metro region could do better integrating commuter rail and local bus systems in general, though. It's pathetic that most of the busy bus lines parallel LIRR lines and are only so crowded because the LIRR is so expensive. How is Bee-Line with Metro-North?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

 

The way Long Islanders talk about the five boroughs, you'd think that Escape from New York was just socialist greenwashing propaganda. But this is what happens when a suburb's only real connection to New York are the third-gen NYPD officers who live out there.

The Manhattan and Ronkonkoma railroad doesn't have time for that.

The metro region could do better integrating commuter rail and local bus systems in general, though. It's pathetic that most of the busy bus lines parallel LIRR lines and are only so crowded because the LIRR is so expensive. How is Bee-Line with Metro-North?

Heh please... All of those people in Yonkers that take Bee-Line buses to the subway because they can't afford Metro-North...

[Trainmaster5]

7 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

 

The way Long Islanders talk about the five boroughs, you'd think that Escape from New York was just socialist greenwashing propaganda. But this is what happens when a suburb's only real connection to New York are the third-gen NYPD officers who live out there.

The Manhattan and Ronkonkoma railroad doesn't have time for that.

The metro region could do better integrating commuter rail and local bus systems in general, though. It's pathetic that most of the busy bus lines parallel LIRR lines and are only so crowded because the LIRR is so expensive. How is Bee-Line with Metro-North?

It's actually the Manhattan and Babylon railroad right now.  Perhaps when the Second Track project is finished between Ronkonkoma and Farmingdale the name would be a better fit 😁. Check out the frequency of the trains on the respective branches at present.