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JubaionBx12+SBS

April 2018 Schedule Changes

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47 minutes ago, RestrictOnTheHanger said:

The traffic on Broadway causes bunching on the Q53, with or without QBL local service changes. It needs better headways (at a minimum pre artic converison for sure), but extending the Q52 would screw up that line too

What I was talking about is when QBL has work being done on weekends, routes like the Q60 and Q53 need more service. Extending the Q52 to at least 74th St during G/O's can be very useful. 

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3 hours ago, IAlam said:

What I was talking about is when QBL has work being done on weekends, routes like the Q60 and Q53 need more service. Extending the Q52 to at least 74th St during G/O's can be very useful. 

The issue is that if there's any issues on Broadway, you're depending purely on the locals to handle the loads coming from the QCM, as well as whatever passengers chose to stick it out on the subway (or use the Q60 for part of their trip). 

But really, they should boost local service anyway. An SBS route with underlying local service running 4 buses per hour (and not even spaced out at even 15 minute intervals in many cases) is just not right.

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8 hours ago, IAlam said:

What I was talking about is when QBL has work being done on weekends, routes like the Q60 and Q53 need more service. Extending the Q52 to at least 74th St during G/O's can be very useful. 

Agreed on the need for more service in those cases

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5 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The issue is that if there's any issues on Broadway, you're depending purely on the locals to handle the loads coming from the QCM, as well as whatever passengers chose to stick it out on the subway (or use the Q60 for part of their trip). 

But really, they should boost local service anyway. An SBS route with underlying local service running 4 buses per hour (and not even spaced out at even 15 minute intervals in many cases) is just not right.

In their eyes, the Q53 is the actual route while the Q52 is just a short run or a supplement, as compared to it's own route. 

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15 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Respones on top in bold.  

7 minute headways on the Q24 work on the Atlantic Avenue portion of the line... NOT on Broadway. All you're doing is creating a multitude of bunching north of Broadway Junction. For the life of me, I cannot understand why the Q24 doesn't run built-in Broadway Junction short-sign runs outside of Saturdays. I truly believe if this system is to succeed, that short-signs (when used correctly & efficiently, to the tune of serving crucial corridors) can be of a benefit to bus customers (and bus operators for that matter). I can think of one too many cases throughout this system, whether I worked the line/depot itself, that should have short-signs utilized in accordance with maintaining even headways thru vital service areas.

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When I opined in the changes being poor overall it’s because there’s way too much cutting going on with routes that frankly do well enough not to justify them. Let’s look at some of the routes targeted for cuts (B46 local, Bx12 local, B41 LTD, Bx1 LTD, Bx2, Bx19). These routes are heavy hitters in terms of ridership and serve some of the busiest corridors in the city. I would argue there’s underservice going on in most of these cases yet somehow there’s slack to cut buses based on traffic counts. The only reason could be that buses are being spaced poorly along the route with bunching allowing some trips to carry air. If there’s a spacing problem then cuts are the last thing that should be occuring since you get less buses to relieve the sardine cans and you increase the chances that long 20+ minute gaps develop in the service (which is the main issues these routes have now). There seems to be this idea that the bus system can remain attractive while the busiest routes get run into the ground with bunching and gradual service cuts. I’ve mentioned this in other threads but if you can’t get 50k per weekday on the M15 or on Utica you’re doing something wrong and it’s likely the same something that sees the rest of the system ailing.

The good changes come with the Bx40/42 am rush increase (which is highly necessary) and some rush additions to Queens feeder routes. 

I’m ready to start making predictions on high ridership routes bound to see cuts in the fall.

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On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 12:37 PM, EastFlatbushLarry said:

They've been methodically screwing over the B41 for years... Since my uncle started at Flatbush in 2005, up until i worked there in 2010, the 41 (run-wise) has been dying a slow, senseless death. All they're doing is pushing customers to the jitney/dollar vans in droves. I'm of a firm belief they will push the 41-Limited to Q113-Limited headways, to justify artics on the line. I'm absolutely convinced. So are several Brooklyn Division bus operators who worked FB, past or presently.

Yup, and I don't think they're remotely done with whittling resources & ridership down on the route..... If/When they ever go through with that "B91" Bergen Beach shuttle to the Junction, we can say goodnight to the sheer amt. of BPH running north of the Junction, right off the top.... This will open the door to overcrowding.... That will open the door to artics... That will open the door to even more total B41 service throughout the day being lost (on top of what would be lost w/ the amt. of trips no longer running b/w Downtown & Bergen Beach - because there is no way in hell all of that service will be dedicated to running b/w the Junction & Bergen Beach).... The days of a bus arriving every 3-5 mins north of Av. N during the rush'll end up being a thing of the past.....

I don't think they want the B41 LTD & the B103 running concurrently out of downtown....

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40 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Yup, and I don't think they're remotely done with whittling resources & ridership down on the route..... If/When they ever go through with that "B91" Bergen Beach shuttle to the Junction, we can say goodnight to the sheer amt. of BPH running north of the Junction, right off the top.... This will open the door to overcrowding.... That will open the door to artics... That will open the door to even more total B41 service throughout the day being lost (on top of what would be lost w/ the amt. of trips no longer running b/w Downtown & Bergen Beach - because there is no way in hell all of that service will be dedicated to running b/w the Junction & Bergen Beach).... The days of a bus arriving every 3-5 mins north of Av. N during the rush'll end up being a thing of the past.....

I don't think they want the B41 LTD & the B103 running concurrently out of downtown....

Bad news, you are seeing some of the signs already. However, from what I've been observing for years is that they are slowly turning the 103 into a 24/7 service into Downtown. The last bus leaves downtown at 1:15AM and into Canarsie at 2:20AM until service resumes at 5AM. So really on a given day service can run until 2:30AM. Give it a few more years taking the 41 downtown on a late night is going to be a thing of the past. 

Prime example. When I used to live in Queens (Queens Village) late nights was bad. If the Q5/83 wasn't running than you had to resort to van service. 83 van service ended early. It was either the 4 or the 5 van to get into Qns Vill. I'm starting to see that ever more with the 41. It's starting to turn like the Queens Division to where routes are ending early and no service during the late nights. 

You fare off a bit better on the 46 late night. If I'm not mistaken. It's 2-4 buses a hour running at 1/2 hour until 2AM AND 1 bus a hour until 5A. 

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8 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

7 minute headways on the Q24 work on the Atlantic Avenue portion of the line... NOT on Broadway. All you're doing is creating a multitude of bunching north of Broadway Junction. For the life of me, I cannot understand why the Q24 doesn't run built-in Broadway Junction short-sign runs outside of Saturdays. I truly believe if this system is to succeed, that short-signs (when used correctly & efficiently, to the tune of serving crucial corridors) can be of a benefit to bus customers (and bus operators for that matter). I can think of one too many cases throughout this system, whether I worked the line/depot itself, that should have short-signs utilized in accordance with maintaining even headways thru vital service areas.

 

The Broadway section should have been made a separate route (B22?) or attached to something else. 

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15 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

The Broadway section should have been made a separate route (B22?) or attached to something else. 

Separate route. Nothing that terminates near Broadway Junction coming from the east or south suffers from the same traffic indignation that Broadway can inflict on a bus line. Personally, if it (call it the B22 for conversation sake) will terminate at Broadway Junction to the south, then the northern terminal would be where? Because a Lafayette terminal won't be much of a line, regardless of how Broadway thru & thru kills all lines with the same effed up traffic conditions. 

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19 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Yup, and I don't think they're remotely done with whittling resources & ridership down on the route..... If/When they ever go through with that "B91" Bergen Beach shuttle to the Junction, we can say goodnight to the sheer amt. of BPH running north of the Junction, right off the top.... This will open the door to overcrowding.... That will open the door to artics... That will open the door to even more total B41 service throughout the day being lost (on top of what would be lost w/ the amt. of trips no longer running b/w Downtown & Bergen Beach - because there is no way in hell all of that service will be dedicated to running b/w the Junction & Bergen Beach).... The days of a bus arriving every 3-5 mins north of Av. N during the rush'll end up being a thing of the past.....

I don't think they want the B41 LTD & the B103 running concurrently out of downtown....

I don't know why, but I get the sense that the 103 will never run downtown Brooklyn on overnight hours (approximately 12:30am to damn near 5am) while the Canarsie - Nostrand Avenue spur will run 24/7. As far as a legit headway, I'd say 45 minutes to an hour, acting as supplemental service to the B6's hourly headway. In all honesty, I believe in this rendition of the 103, the headways will be codependent on the (2) train.

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On 1/22/2018 at 1:10 PM, Future ENY OP said:

Here's my issue with the 41. 

1) Not enough police enforcement on Flatbush to regulate the vans. Since they addressed the Kings Plaza issue that took so many years and having vans stopping in front of KP. 

2). It took Flatbush so many years to have artics to NOT have them on the 41 knowing well that artics on the 44 is not the answer. You really need the artics more on the 41/46 vs the 44. Although Flatbush has 3 heavy lines all within the top 10. You would think it's best to have artics running in some sort on all 3 lines. 

3). Within the past year Flatbush has lost a good chunk of buses to CS and Grand Avenue, and I know the TA is not in the business of parking buses on the streets. However, if they made more progress of adding more 41's on the schedule none of those moves to Bushwick and Jamaica would of taken place. 

1) That's an understatement... Lol..... Police spend far more time targeting the Church av dollar cabs (matter fact, they were out there this past friday night doing their "sweeps").... OTOH, They're practically letting the van/minibus drivers on Flatbush go to the dogs....

2) I would have preferred that the B41 not have artics, so this isn't an issue I have.... I'm glad that they're not on the B46 either & I don't particularly care for them on the B44.

3) ...which is strange, because Grand still runs their routes like shit.... I suppose some of those buses are being used as ornaments or something, because it doesn't remotely seem like there's been any additions to the amt. of resources out on the road from out of that depot....

On 1/22/2018 at 4:41 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Hell I even recall one driver who used to frequent here calling for outright cuts to the B31 saying that there was no ridership overnight, so I'm not sure how they're supposed to be concerned with service there in general.  I personally contacted elected officials who worked to get the B2 restored on weekends, and there was also a push to restore overnight service on the B31.  The B49 has been a disaster. The B41 has worsened considerably.  That leaves the B44 and the B46.  Given the amount of complaints about long waits for local B44 service, I'd say that line hasn't been a success either despite becoming SBS.  The B46 is debatable as well.  If there is a lot of farebeating going on then that means less revenue for the (MTA) and potential cuts for the line, so I think that just about takes care of all of the lines out of Flatbush.  

Yeah, B44 & B46 local service has gone to shit too... I can't remember the last time I've seen a B44 local just being out & about along Church av, or driving around in Brooklyn in general... The ratio of B46 SBS' to locals seem to have simmered down a bit (so instead of damn 7:1 (or worse.... btw, the most consecutive SBS' I've seen around here was a whopping 12 !!) like it was when B46 SBS first started out, now it's more like 4:1), but local service to/from (especially from) WBP is still the pits.....

On 1/22/2018 at 5:59 PM, N6 Limited said:

And to keep this on topic, the (Q60) has been the relief for savvy riders.

Yup.... Weekends, short of 63rd dr. from the east (meaning, WB buses b/w Jamaica & Rego Park), buses tend to be nice & empty too....

On 1/22/2018 at 8:02 PM, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

Don't forget the Q53. Anytime there is weekend construction involving no trains at local stops, or in any other huge delay, those Q53's will get slammed.

Perhaps, but the Q53 is a route that gets slammed regardless.

On 1/23/2018 at 4:20 AM, checkmatechamp13 said:

The issue is that if there's any issues on Broadway, you're depending purely on the locals to handle the loads coming from the QCM, as well as whatever passengers chose to stick it out on the subway (or use the Q60 for part of their trip). 

But really, they should boost local service anyway. An SBS route with underlying local service running 4 buses per hour (and not even spaced out at even 15 minute intervals in many cases) is just not right.

Why do you think I have never been fond of the Q52..... IDC if I'm in whatever minority there is by saying this, but there is no need for the route.... 

I would like things to go back to the old pattern - where the Q11 was the only local north of Liberty/Cross Bay & the Q53 was the only LTD.... For all I care, the Q21 could've still been turned around in the Rockaways to serve Arverne, to still divert to serve Lindenwood, to end at the (A)..... The Q21 was wasteful running to Rockaway Park, but regardless, there was a bit of a balance as far as locals to LTD's went with the Q11/Q53 north of Liberty....

That whole Q21/LTD experiment was the genesis of the declination of the quality of overall Woodhaven blvd. local service.... Before that, the only thing really happening as far as service went w/ the Q11, was having more buses short turning at Pitkin from the north.....

On 1/23/2018 at 10:21 AM, EastFlatbushLarry said:

...I truly believe if this system is to succeed, that short-signs (when used correctly & efficiently, to the tune of serving crucial corridors) can be of a benefit to bus customers (and bus operators for that matter). I can think of one too many cases throughout this system, whether I worked the line/depot itself, that should have short-signs utilized in accordance with maintaining even headways thru vital service areas.

This.... I have always been a huge proponent of short turns.

On 1/23/2018 at 7:10 PM, Gotham Bus Co. said:

The Broadway section should have been made a separate route (B22?) or attached to something else. 

On 1/24/2018 at 10:27 AM, EastFlatbushLarry said:

Separate route. Nothing that terminates near Broadway Junction coming from the east or south suffers from the same traffic indignation that Broadway can inflict on a bus line. Personally, if it (call it the B22 for conversation sake) will terminate at Broadway Junction to the south, then the northern terminal would be where? Because a Lafayette terminal won't be much of a line, regardless of how Broadway thru & thru kills all lines with the same effed up traffic conditions. 

Cut the Q24 back to B'way Junction.... Move the B20 to take the place of the Q24 b/w B'way Junction & Lafayette.... Get rid of the B84 (as is) & "shift" the same current resources used to operate it, to run along the current B20 b/w B'way Junction & Forest av (M).... Such a service can be given whatever available number, IDRC about that....

Current Q24 is too long for its own good, current B84 carries much of no one, current B20 north of B'way Junction is wasteful.

B20 short turns to B'way Junction would still exist, but there would be much less of them during the afternoon/PM rush.... The (altered) full route wouldn't be as useless as the current full route of the B20, so there wouldn't be much of a need to short turn every other bus between 1-7 pm, or whenever the span is....

On 1/23/2018 at 3:38 PM, Future ENY OP said:

Bad news, you are seeing some of the signs already. However, from what I've been observing for years is that they are slowly turning the 103 into a 24/7 service into Downtown. The last bus leaves downtown at 1:15AM and into Canarsie at 2:20AM until service resumes at 5AM. So really on a given day service can run until 2:30AM. Give it a few more years taking the 41 downtown on a late night is going to be a thing of the past.

On 1/24/2018 at 10:37 AM, EastFlatbushLarry said:

I don't know why, but I get the sense that the 103 will never run downtown Brooklyn on overnight hours (approximately 12:30am to damn near 5am) while the Canarsie - Nostrand Avenue spur will run 24/7. As far as a legit headway, I'd say 45 minutes to an hour, acting as supplemental service to the B6's hourly headway. In all honesty, I believe in this rendition of the 103, the headways will be codependent on the (2) train.

I can see the MTA eventually turning the B103 into a 24/7 route, as well as having it take the place of the B41 (routing-wise) late nights, north of the Junction (running locally, of course).... Anybody coming from or heading south of the Junction would be forced to put up w/ the Q35 during those hours.... Something else I'd keep an eye out on, is the having of buses run in both directions along 4th av in Gowanus/Park Slope; as the connection b/w it (103) & the (F)(G) is really catching on....

Overall, the more the B103 is being pushed, the more it spells trouble for the B41 in the future.... That's how I see it.

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On 1/23/2018 at 8:24 AM, RestrictOnTheHanger said:

Agreed on the need for more service in those cases

The same function could also be served by having additional Q53 runs that end their southbound runs in Howard Beach and do not travel on to Broad Channel or the Rockaways (there is a program for 163 Avenue as the last stop, which IMO should be used more often).

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On 1/20/2018 at 3:17 AM, paulrivera said:

Not surprised about the Bx12 local because other than the 3pm hour when the kiddos are dismissed from school, the buses carry air, especially if the SBS is running decently.

Now when the Select goes to shit OTOH there won’t be as many locals to pick up the slack.

On the plus side, the Bx20 addition was overdue, and it’s nice to see the Bx5 with all that service. If ridership keeps growing I can see the Bx5 getting SBS service (not anytime soon but maybe in 5 years or so.)

Not SBS for the Bx5, but limited service. The Bx20, should add Midday and 4 trips in the evening, at least an hour service on Saturdays from 8A-8P

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5 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

The Bx20, should add Midday and 4 trips in the evening, at least an hour service on Saturdays from 8A-8P

 

Maybe absorb the Bx20 into the Bx7 and have alternate trips ("Bx7A"?) use Kappock Street instead of the Riverdale Avenue shortcut.

(Compare with Bx4/4A and Q15/15A.)

Edited by Gotham Bus Co.

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Those LES buses are getting a cut in each quarter I see... M9/M22 keep getting cuts. soon the whole weekend service will be discontinued.

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9 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

Maybe absorb the Bx20 into the Bx7 and have alternate trips ("Bx7A"?) use Kappock Street instead of the Riverdale Avenue shortcut.

(Compare with Bx4/4A and Q15/15A.)

Uh no.... You've probably never even been to Riverdale to understand the hilly topography. There is no need to run the Bx20 from the Westchester border. Bx20's start at 246th for a reason...

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14 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

Not SBS for the Bx5, but limited service. The Bx20, should add Midday and 4 trips in the evening, at least an hour service on Saturdays from 8A-8P

There have been calls for Bx20 service on Saturdays but I don't see the need. They should focus on improving the Bx10 first, since that runs down Henry Hudson Parkway and Spuyten Duyvil (via Kappock) sporadically.

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6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Uh no.... You've probably never even been to Riverdale to understand the hilly topography. There is no need to run the Bx20 from the Westchester border. Bx20's start at 246th for a reason...

I never suggested extending the Bx20 to the border. I suggested scrapping the Bx20 and splitting the existing Bx7.

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1 hour ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

I never suggested extending the Bx20 to the border. I suggested scrapping the Bx20 and splitting the existing Bx7.

That's what your plan would do... Running Bx7As.... What's the point? The Bx7 has severe reliability issues and splitting it would just make things worse. The way it is now is best. The Bx7, Bx10 and Bx20 all run pretty poorly, but out of the three, the Bx20 seems to have the most hope given that it is the shortest out of three routes.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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