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OPTO on the (L)


kosciusko

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1 hour ago, CenSin said:

There is nothing to see obstacles then. A train would need some pretty advanced LIDAR system to stop for obstacles like people and debris.

Point taken or some type of wayside sensor system that could alert the Onboard system to danger or any issue (intrusion monitoring). LIDAR tech is getting there tho. Was just reading on some new advancements Google's developing for weather and everything.  

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24 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

Point taken or some type of wayside sensor system that could alert the Onboard system to danger or any issue (intrusion monitoring). LIDAR tech is getting there tho. Was just reading on some new advancements Google's developing for weather and everything.  

The problem those systems have always had is false positive, like, say, a rat, or a balloon, or any number of random objects.

Generally the only time you see systems like that in use is where PSDs are available, because PSDs reduce the amount of random crap that could possibly get on the tracks.

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22 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

The problem those systems have always had is false positive, like, say, a rat, or a balloon, or any number of random objects.

Generally the only time you see systems like that in use is where PSDs are available, because PSDs reduce the amount of random crap that could possibly get on the tracks.

Valid point. I believe they have systems that have a higher level of detection that can solve that issue. With a combination of the technology Lidar and video ect..  My guys at 2 Broadway were talking about one of the companies tapped to work on the QBL deployment SYSTRA. I believe they have something to work around that issue a system maybe. But point also taken with PSD's point as well you'd def need them in the fold. Yeah, I don't fully have the answer to that one. NYC is one big Brownfield project it's going to be a hell of job getting everything up to snuff.

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50 minutes ago, kosciusko said:

What about something as simple as a camera feed into the conductor's cab?

Not that simple. Video would have to be supplemented with other tech LiDar ect. Are you accounting for latency within the feed? Wireless relays signals? 5G Might sovle a lot of these issues especially with the wireless spectrum being opened up above 6Ghz there tons of other spectrum underground being used for various things. Remember the (L) is rated GoA2 technically semi-automated the MTA would need major upgrades to get it to GoA4 standards  the JFK AirTrain is a exsample of the that. Not all automation is the same let's start there.

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On 1/26/2018 at 4:19 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

Seems like you're a proponent of self- evacuation. Good luck finding your way out of the Joralemon or Steinway tubes when the next blackout happens. I've experienced three in my lifetime as a passenger or an employee. Even if it's a run of the mill power outage in a localized situation NYPD and FDNY/EMS rely on the train crews on the scene. Maybe you're saying it's every man for himself ? Please elaborate.

 

I just LOL at some of these posters..

 Boy do they live in dream worlds....

Hell be the first one on line if something pops off on the train hes on with a lawsuit probably...

Good post as usual trainmaster.

You also noticed he never replied....

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On 1/26/2018 at 4:19 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

Seems like you're a proponent of self- evacuation. Good luck finding your way out of the Joralemon or Steinway tubes when the next blackout happens. I've experienced three in my lifetime as a passenger or an employee. Even if it's a run of the mill power outage in a localized situation NYPD and FDNY/EMS rely on the train crews on the scene. Maybe you're saying it's every man for himself ? Please elaborate.

I don't see how evacuating oneself from a darkened office building is any different. People are suddenly plunged into darkness with no sort of more knowledgeable person around to help them get out -- just a few exit signs (hopefully) on backup generators. But we allow that, no? If anything, evacuating a tunnel is easier, if only because its pretty damn hard to get lost in one. 

I personally do not support DTO at this point in time, but I want to push you on your argument. 

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I can see the most acceptable compromise being to something said before: to let the positions atrophy and to reassign personnel, but not lay them off. New hires would get lower pay in accordance to the lesser responsibilities, and reassigned personnel would not get pay raises.

  • Current personnel do not get the rug pulled out from under them.
  • The MTA saves recurring costs on personnel.
  • Safety is not an issue because there will be MTA personnel on board trains and on platforms for emergencies and as a backup element.
  • Train service will become more consistent and more frequent as another human factor (which requires a huge safety margin) is factored out of operation.

I’m sure that we all understand that unions need to get work and income for their workers, and unions need the dues that their members pay. But the public also desires reduced commute expenditures and reduced service variability (increased reliability).

Some folks think the safety issue is a point used by the union as a tool to protect their own hides. That’s true. But it does not the diminish the safety issue or make it untrue. The safety concern is real and legitimate given the requirements that the MTA has imposed on itself, such as fumigating trains and keeping sick passengers on board while emergency responders arrive. New York also has a lot of mentally ill homeless people roaming about. It makes me want to call for deputized personnel (be they from the MTA or NYPD) on the trains.

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Some folks are overanalyzing the labor side of things. Assuming OPTO on the L happens again, nobody would be laid off or have a new role other than what they signed up for. T/Os would remain T/Os and C/Rs remain C/Rs. Those displaced C/Rs would simply be assigned/pick new routes to work on.

 

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1 hour ago, Tricknologist said:

Some folks are overanalyzing the labor side of things. Assuming OPTO on the L happens again, nobody would be laid off or have a new role other than what they signed up for. T/Os would remain T/Os and C/Rs remain C/Rs. Those displaced C/Rs would simply be assigned/pick new routes to work on.

 

That is of course true, but the implication of opto on the most frequent line is "why not put it on X since X is less busy than Y, so clearly they aren't needed" 

Now the truth of the mater is a few systems have run OPTO successfully, including one busy--but insulated--line in Tokyo (which I consider a little out of reach and the London Underground, from which the current MTA President was hired. So I don't think there's any doubt about the agenda he will be pushing. Now Tokyo normally makes use of Platform Screen Doors and Platform Conductors, in addition to that orderly queuing is apparently taught from Primary school so that helps the ingress/egress even with crowding. I consider their results unobtainable in the context of a Western society. 

The London Underground transitioned to OPTO through the 80s and 90s, for all that, they have the same fare hikes, similar headways to ours , and until just over a year ago they still had the same part time service that existed for generation.

To be clear no real benefit can be expected from OPTO other than a labor reduction, whether that be reduced hiring, reduced pay to be "promoted" to another title, tiered pay scales, etc.  

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1 hour ago, RR503 said:

I don't see how evacuating oneself from a darkened office building is any different. People are suddenly plunged into darkness with no sort of more knowledgeable person around to help them get out -- just a few exit signs (hopefully) on backup generators. But we allow that, no? If anything, evacuating a tunnel is easier, if only because its pretty damn hard to get lost in one. 

I personally do not support DTO at this point in time, but I want to push you on your argument. 

Your rebuttal example is completely different than what I'm saying. There are no exit signs, nor backup generators in my scenario. In a darkened building with a staircase where would that staircase lead, except toward an exit or main lobby? If, for example, you or I were to find ourselves in a suddenly darkened theater, Radio City, or an arena like MSG, I'm pretty sure we'd find our way out. Re-trace the steps we took to enter the location and we'd hopefully be headed in the right direction. I've done it working new construction and rehabs many times in total darkness. It's a dangerous situation but I was familiar with my surroundings. No staircases but ladders in the dark in a four story building. Slow going but I knew the layout. How many people do you know who know the layout of the Steinway or Joralemon St river tubes ? Most RTO workers don't know that. Most RTO supervisors don't know that. The one advantage they and Emergency Service providers have is a flashlight, preferably a lantern. That's why evacuations are led by two or more qualified people. Especially in river tubes. When there's only the train crew involved one member is supposed leave the train to find the safest exit, because it's not always the closest one, return to the consist and lead everyone to that exit, with the other crew member bringing up the rear. I think you're aware of the term triage so I won't get into that. Obviously if we're talking about a train stalled between stations it always depends on the location. The under river evacuations are always the hardest depending on the time of day. The last total blackout happened at 4:10 pm on a hot sweltering Thursday. People heading home from work. Bam, lights out. Lucky for me I was located in a station with the doors open. Train across the platform heading in the opposite direction in the exact same condition. Two flights below street level. My C/R and I were familiar with the station layout (our part of town) so she and the other C/R took the lead. Escalator out of order, hot, dark, the conductors brought two trainloads of riders to the street. The other T/O stayed with me, in the darkness. Have you figured out why ? The handicapped and non-ambulatory folks have to be rescued too. Carried two men in wheelchairs up to street level. Back down to platform level to retrieve the baby strollers left behind. We flagged down three buses upstairs before we could find room to start to get the people on my train homeward bound. When you mentioned the tunnels being an easier evacuation I'm guessing you mean between stations like Fulton St and Brooklyn Bridge, or maybe Hoyt St and Nevins ? Those are easier in theory because, as a rider, you know where the next station and platform are. Of course if you have to descend to the roadbed and walk the tracks in the dark in doesn't matter what you're stepping in or on without a guide with a flashlight. Broken glass, rotted cross-ties, raw sewage, no big deal, right ? Don't bother Joe Homeless's shopping cart or belongings while you're at it. He may become violent. Benchwall between stations is missing or crumbles as you walk on it. No big deal, right? It's not as simple as it looks even to the young healthy folks. Going back to the blackout I mentioned earlier, our friend, an RTO supervisor who worked with me on work trains years ago, was on a s/b (2) which died in the Clark Street tube near Brooklyn. Station is located way underground. Elevator is main mode of reaching and leaving the platform. Tiny emergency stairway up. The safest way out was through an emergency exit in the tube that let you out on the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway with cars and trucks whizzing by your head. We joke about it now but the only help he and the train crew got was because motorists called 9-1-1 to report people on the roadway. In our case the NYPD responded 3 hours and twenty minutes later after a B/O made a report. FDNY had already responded about an hour into our ordeal. The white shirts from NYPD showed up after the radio car to make sure the token booth was secured. The S/A was in our care by then and she wasn't a happy camper. The ordeal started at 4:10 pm Thursday and we were finally relieved at the site at 9:56 am Friday. Had to post that long story to let you know that nothing, especially evacuations, is as easy as it appears to an outsider. Expect the unexpected. Carry on.

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7 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Your rebuttal example is completely different than what I'm saying. There are no exit signs, nor backup generators in my scenario. In a darkened building with a staircase where would that staircase lead, except toward an exit or main lobby? If, for example, you or I were to find ourselves in a suddenly darkened theater, Radio City, or an arena like MSG, I'm pretty sure we'd find our way out. Re-trace the steps we took to enter the location and we'd hopefully be headed in the right direction. I've done it working new construction and rehabs many times in total darkness. It's a dangerous situation but I was familiar with my surroundings. No staircases but ladders in the dark in a four story building. Slow going but I knew the layout. How many people do you know who know the layout of the Steinway or Joralemon St river tubes ? Most RTO workers don't know that. Most RTO supervisors don't know that. The one advantage they and Emergency Service providers have is a flashlight, preferably a lantern. That's why evacuations are led by two or more qualified people. Especially in river tubes. When there's only the train crew involved one member is supposed leave the train to find the safest exit, because it's not always the closest one, return to the consist and lead everyone to that exit, with the other crew member bringing up the rear. I think you're aware of the term triage so I won't get into that. Obviously if we're talking about a train stalled between stations it always depends on the location. The under river evacuations are always the hardest depending on the time of day. The last total blackout happened at 4:10 pm on a hot sweltering Thursday. People heading home from work. Bam, lights out. Lucky for me I was located in a station with the doors open. Train across the platform heading in the opposite direction in the exact same condition. Two flights below street level. My C/R and I were familiar with the station layout (our part of town) so she and the other C/R took the lead. Escalator out of order, hot, dark, the conductors brought two trainloads of riders to the street. The other T/O stayed with me, in the darkness. Have you figured out why ? The handicapped and non-ambulatory folks have to be rescued too. Carried two men in wheelchairs up to street level. Back down to platform level to retrieve the baby strollers left behind. We flagged down three buses upstairs before we could find room to start to get the people on my train homeward bound. When you mentioned the tunnels being an easier evacuation I'm guessing you mean between stations like Fulton St and Brooklyn Bridge, or maybe Hoyt St and Nevins ? Those are easier in theory because, as a rider, you know where the next station and platform are. Of course if you have to descend to the roadbed and walk the tracks in the dark in doesn't matter what you're stepping in or on without a guide with a flashlight. Broken glass, rotted cross-ties, raw sewage, no big deal, right ? Don't bother Joe Homeless's shopping cart or belongings while you're at it. He may become violent. Benchwall between stations is missing or crumbles as you walk on it. No big deal, right? It's not as simple as it looks even to the young healthy folks. Going back to the blackout I mentioned earlier, our friend, an RTO supervisor who worked with me on work trains years ago, was on a s/b (2) which died in the Clark Street tube near Brooklyn. Station is located way underground. Elevator is main mode of reaching and leaving the platform. Tiny emergency stairway up. The safest way out was through an emergency exit in the tube that let you out on the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway with cars and trucks whizzing by your head. We joke about it now but the only help he and the train crew got was because motorists called 9-1-1 to report people on the roadway. In our case the NYPD responded 3 hours and twenty minutes later after a B/O made a report. FDNY had already responded about an hour into our ordeal. The white shirts from NYPD showed up after the radio car to make sure the token booth was secured. The S/A was in our care by then and she wasn't a happy camper. The ordeal started at 4:10 pm Thursday and we were finally relieved at the site at 9:56 am Friday. Had to post that long story to let you know that nothing, especially evacuations, is as easy as it appears to an outsider. Expect the unexpected. Carry on.

Wow! This shows how unappreciated our T/Os and C/Os are. I bet that some of those people who were rescued from the powerless trains started groaning the day after.

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1 minute ago, Union Tpke said:

Wow! This shows how unappreciated our T/Os and C/Os are. I bet that some of those people who were rescued from the powerless trains started groaning the day after.

Actually our regular riders were very appreciative to my C/R and myself even before the blackout. That particular night some ladies brought us food and water around 10 pm. The folks who lived at the end of the line still talk to her about me and ask about my whereabouts since we've both retired. We were a team for over 15 years and the riders always complimented us for being courteous and professional. That's the thing that bothers me about some (MTA) employees. Subway, Surface, Railroad, hourly or supervisor. It doesn't cost a thing to be polite to the riders and it also works the other way too. Just the way she and I were trained and brought up I guess.

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29 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Your rebuttal example is completely different than what I'm saying. There are no exit signs, nor backup generators in my scenario. In a darkened building with a staircase where would that staircase lead, except toward an exit or main lobby? If, for example, you or I were to find ourselves in a suddenly darkened theater, Radio City, or an arena like MSG, I'm pretty sure we'd find our way out. Re-trace the steps we took to enter the location and we'd hopefully be headed in the right direction. I've done it working new construction and rehabs many times in total darkness. It's a dangerous situation but I was familiar with my surroundings. No staircases but ladders in the dark in a four story building. Slow going but I knew the layout. How many people do you know who know the layout of the Steinway or Joralemon St river tubes ? Most RTO workers don't know that. Most RTO supervisors don't know that. The one advantage they and Emergency Service providers have is a flashlight, preferably a lantern. That's why evacuations are led by two or more qualified people. Especially in river tubes. When there's only the train crew involved one member is supposed leave the train to find the safest exit, because it's not always the closest one, return to the consist and lead everyone to that exit, with the other crew member bringing up the rear. I think you're aware of the term triage so I won't get into that. Obviously if we're talking about a train stalled between stations it always depends on the location. The under river evacuations are always the hardest depending on the time of day. The last total blackout happened at 4:10 pm on a hot sweltering Thursday. People heading home from work. Bam, lights out. Lucky for me I was located in a station with the doors open. Train across the platform heading in the opposite direction in the exact same condition. Two flights below street level. My C/R and I were familiar with the station layout (our part of town) so she and the other C/R took the lead. Escalator out of order, hot, dark, the conductors brought two trainloads of riders to the street. The other T/O stayed with me, in the darkness. Have you figured out why ? The handicapped and non-ambulatory folks have to be rescued too. Carried two men in wheelchairs up to street level. Back down to platform level to retrieve the baby strollers left behind. We flagged down three buses upstairs before we could find room to start to get the people on my train homeward bound. When you mentioned the tunnels being an easier evacuation I'm guessing you mean between stations like Fulton St and Brooklyn Bridge, or maybe Hoyt St and Nevins ? Those are easier in theory because, as a rider, you know where the next station and platform are. Of course if you have to descend to the roadbed and walk the tracks in the dark in doesn't matter what you're stepping in or on without a guide with a flashlight. Broken glass, rotted cross-ties, raw sewage, no big deal, right ? Don't bother Joe Homeless's shopping cart or belongings while you're at it. He may become violent. Benchwall between stations is missing or crumbles as you walk on it. No big deal, right? It's not as simple as it looks even to the young healthy folks. Going back to the blackout I mentioned earlier, our friend, an RTO supervisor who worked with me on work trains years ago, was on a s/b (2) which died in the Clark Street tube near Brooklyn. Station is located way underground. Elevator is main mode of reaching and leaving the platform. Tiny emergency stairway up. The safest way out was through an emergency exit in the tube that let you out on the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway with cars and trucks whizzing by your head. We joke about it now but the only help he and the train crew got was because motorists called 9-1-1 to report people on the roadway. In our case the NYPD responded 3 hours and twenty minutes later after a B/O made a report. FDNY had already responded about an hour into our ordeal. The white shirts from NYPD showed up after the radio car to make sure the token booth was secured. The S/A was in our care by then and she wasn't a happy camper. The ordeal started at 4:10 pm Thursday and we were finally relieved at the site at 9:56 am Friday. Had to post that long story to let you know that nothing, especially evacuations, is as easy as it appears to an outsider. Expect the unexpected. Carry on.

A truly spectacular post. Exactly what I was looking for when I said I wanted to “push you.” 

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37 minutes ago, RTOMan said:

So in other words you was just trolling...

Makes sense to me...

Unnecessary much? Thread’s been dead for 6 days...

You say trolling, I say wanting to learn. That’s what the forums are for no? 

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13 hours ago, RR503 said:

Unnecessary much? Thread’s been dead for 6 days...

You say trolling, I say wanting to learn. That’s what the forums are for no? 

Well..

Working for RTO i dont visit often to these boards unlike others who seem to live  on these...

Only reason i bothered to reply is i left my browser open and i saw you said something.

My point stands..

Nice try though...

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